If Jesus were real!?

[Plu]

OK, I do believe the Jesus legend was based on a real person/s.  Think about it.  A charasmatic populist, speaks truth to power, threatens the legitimacy of the ruling elite, and is killed for it.  Does that really seem that far fetched?

Nah, but any character you can come up can be labeled "based on a real person" a thousand years after the fact, there's just that many people :P
There were probably dozens if not hundreds of people just like that going around in ancient times. Most just were forgetten, like most of all people who ever lived.

[josephpalazzo]

OK, I do believe the Jesus legend was based on a real person/s.  Think about it.  A charasmatic populist, speaks truth to power, threatens the legitimacy of the ruling elite, and is killed for it.  Does that really seem that far fetched?

Well, that could very well be. But the earliest gospels were written starting from the second century. By that time, the story was merged with many elements that can be literally found in other cultural myths: resurrection, born from a virgin, starting a ministry at the age of 30, choosing twelve apostles, performing miracles. So whoever was the initial inspiration for the story would bear little resemblance to the figure depicted in the gospels. And don't forget, there were several dozens of these gospels written. It's not until 325 AD that the four gospels that we know survived. All the others were declared heretical at the council of Nicea, and ultimately destroyed. So how much of Jesus is real is anyone's guess.

[resmith4]

I am 24 years old- I was a devout Christian my whole life until about 1-2 years ago when I started looking for truth. I am just now beginning to read what ever I can find on the Christ myth "theory" (doesn't seem like much of a theory to me). It's fascinating.

Can you seasoned pros point me to some resources on this? I am reading some things by DM Murdock now... it'd be great to get my hands on some more academic resources as well.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Rachel

[leo]

I am 24 years old- I was a devout Christian my whole life until about 1-2 years ago when I started looking for truth. I am just now beginning to read what ever I can find on the Christ myth "theory" (doesn't seem like much of a theory to me). It's fascinating.

Can you seasoned pros point me to some resources on this? I am reading some things by DM Murdock now... it'd be great to get my hands on some more academic resources as well.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Rachel

Welcome to the forums !

[josephpalazzo]

I am 24 years old- I was a devout Christian my whole life until about 1-2 years ago when I started looking for truth. I am just now beginning to read what ever I can find on the Christ myth "theory" (doesn't seem like much of a theory to me). It's fascinating.

Can you seasoned pros point me to some resources on this? I am reading some things by DM Murdock now... it'd be great to get my hands on some more academic resources as well.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Rachel

One of the best is at The Secular Library. You'll find loads of articles on this.

[Solitary]

:-D  Welcome aboard resmith4! If you can find anything written about Jesus when he was actually alive it would prove he actually existed, why waste time looking for other people's opinions about whether it is a myth. Solitary

[FrankDK]

> OK, I do believe the Jesus legend was based on a real person/s. Think about it. A charasmatic populist, speaks truth to power, threatens the legitimacy of the ruling elite, and is killed for it. Does that really seem that far fetched?

It depends on what you mean by "based on a real person/s."  If you mean there was a specific person named Jesus who lived in Nazareth during the first century of the Christian calendar and did the things attributed to Jesus, then, yes, it is far-fetched.

First, the town of Nazareth didn't exist until much later.  We know this from Roman and Jewish records, including tax records.  Second, we have contemporaneous references to people of the time, including John the Baptist.  JtB was attracting crowds of hundreds; Jesus was supposedly attracting crowds of thousands.  If he had existed, he certainly would have been mentioned by chroniclers of the day.

Jesus was born "during the reign of King Herod the Great."  We know from Roman and Jewish records that King Herod the Great died in what would be 4 BC on the Christian calendar.  So the latest Jesus could have been born was 4 BC.  The only census around the traditional time of Jesus was in 6 - 7 AD under Quirinius, according to Josephus.  So there is a 10 to 11 year gap in the possible time of Jesus' birth.

John the Baptist, who was a real person, was executed by the Jews after Jesus was crucified, according to the Bible.  But Jesus was given to the Romans because they had taken away the Jews' authority for capital punishment, according to the Bible.  Clearly, the Jews still had the authority to execute heretics.

Here's what probably happened:

Many people were familiar with the old savior god religions, like worship of Horus, who was born of a virgin (Isis) to the god Osiris.  He lived, preached, raised a man from the dead, and eventually died, only to be raised from the dead and ascend to Heaven with his father.  The Holy Trinity was god the father, god the son, and god the mother.

During the reign of King Herod the Great, Jesus ben Pantera was born to a Roman soldier named Pantera ("Panther") and a Jewish woman of royal lineage.  He preached a gospel of peace, had twelve disciples, had a last supper with them, and was stoned by the Jews for heresy, and his body hung from a tree as an example to others.  We have records of this.

John the Baptist went around preaching about apocalyptic times.  He taught his disciples a prayer that began, "Our father, which art in Heaven..."  In Luke 11:1, Jesus' disciples are made to say, "Teach us to pray as John taught his disciples."  The prayer was John the Baptists', but it is linked to Jesus with this literary device.

Paul (a Roman originally named Saul) began preaching about a mythical, mystical figure named Jesus.  Paul states that Jesus was not a physical person who recently lived.

Years later, around 90 AD, someone collected stories about Jesus ben Pantera, John the Baptist, and the mythical figure Paul preached about.  We know this collection today as the Gospel of Mark.  It is clear that the writer knew nothing of the Jewish religion or the geography of the region.  Indeed, it is unlikely that the writer ever visited the area, since he gets so many geographical details wrong.  Over the next forty years, the other gospels are collected.  Since they were put together so long after the fact, they got many things wrong, like putting Jesus in Nazareth, which didn't exist until the last part of the first century, and having Jesus crucified, which the Romans weren't doing in Jerusalem in 30 to 40 AD.

Acts 5:30 says "The god of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hung from a tree."  It is clear they are talking about Jesus ben Pantera, not the mythical Jesus who was supposedly crucified.  (Recent versions of the NT have altered this to try to cover up the fact.)

So, yes, Jesus was based on Horus, a mythological god, and Jesus ben Pantera and John the Baptist, both real figures.

Frank

PS: Merry Christmas

[mykcob4]

I am 24 years old- I was a devout Christian my whole life until about 1-2 years ago when I started looking for truth. I am just now beginning to read what ever I can find on the Christ myth "theory" (doesn't seem like much of a theory to me). It's fascinating.

Can you seasoned pros point me to some resources on this? I am reading some things by DM Murdock now... it'd be great to get my hands on some more academic resources as well.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Rachel

Welcome aboard. Now swab that deck!!!!!

[Thumpalumpacus]

And if worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't fuck with 'em.

if the worms know how to handle a gun

... or the "hand" part of "handle", yeah.

Hence the hypothetical, wot wot.   :)

[GrinningYMIR]

I am 24 years old- I was a devout Christian my whole life until about 1-2 years ago when I started looking for truth. I am just now beginning to read what ever I can find on the Christ myth "theory" (doesn't seem like much of a theory to me). It's fascinating.

Can you seasoned pros point me to some resources on this? I am reading some things by DM Murdock now... it'd be great to get my hands on some more academic resources as well.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Rachel

Welcome to the forum! Hope you like it here

[Thackerie]

> ... During the reign of King Herod the Great, Jesus ben Pantera was born to a Roman soldier named Pantera ("Panther") and a Jewish woman of royal lineage.  He preached a gospel of peace, had twelve disciples, had a last supper with them, and was stoned by the Jews for heresy, and his body hung from a tree as an example to others.  We have records of this. ...

We do? Where are these records? What are you talking about?

Fascinating if true. Show the evidence, please.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

But he had a savings account that with interest by now would be worth TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS.. Remember.. jesus saves.. Yeah...yuppie rich cocksucker by now..  :rollin:

[FrankDK]

> ... During the reign of King Herod the Great, Jesus ben Pantera was born to a Roman soldier named Pantera ("Panther") and a Jewish woman of royal lineage.  He preached a gospel of peace, had twelve disciples, had a last supper with them, and was stoned by the Jews for heresy, and his body hung from a tree as an example to others.  We have records of this. ...

We do? Where are these records? What are you talking about?

Fascinating if true. Show the evidence, please.

It's mentioned in the writings of the Sanhedrin 67a of the Talmud.  There's a discussion of some of the issues here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_t ... ng_context

In the Middle Ages, some of the copies of the Talmud were censored by Christians or Jews fearful of repression, but the oldest texts have the reference.  I haven't found a single source that puts it all in one spot, but the Wiki article has good references.

Frank

[FrankDK]

> jesus saves..

But Moses invests.

Frank

[Heisreal]

If Jesus is non existent why is Jesus birthday our nations largest holiday?

Why has the Bible been the #1 best seller for your entire life?

Why was there a point in history when time became BC?

These are facts in favor of Jesus, despite Christians being a minority throughout history.