Atheist VS Christian morality: Good is evil and vice versa

[Mike Cl]

Your contention that the God of the Bible wasn't evil? Bullshit. See, when I was younger, it always puzzled me why Pharaoh was refusing the Israelites go even after all this horrific stuff was happening to them. Upon a more careful reading of the Bible, I found out why:

Starting from Exodus 7:

1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

So here, we get an immidate answer of why Pharaoh was being pig-headed about keeping the Israelites as slaves: Yahuwahu was making him stubborn, just so that he could show off his power.

And it continues:

13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now, so far the plauges haven't been that bad, so it might be understandable why Pharaoh hasn't let the Israelites go yet. Yet there is the "hardened his heart" phrase showing up again and again, a phrasology which Yahuwahu uses explicitly, indicating that he is the culprit.

32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Then Yahuwahu starts with the livestock. This is now getting serious, because livestock represents one of the major assets of the ordinary farmer.

9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Pharaoh's heart was hardened again. Wonder who did that?

11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. 12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

Now we're getting more explicit that it was Yahuwahu who was hardening Pharaoh's heart. That is, Yahuwahu who was manipulating Pharaoh's emotions and thoughts, prodding him to do something he wouldn't normally do under the circumstances.

In short, he is violating Pharaoh's free will.

It becomes even more stark the next chapter, Exodus 10:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: 2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the Lord.

So Yahuwahu fully cops to doing this thing to Pharaoh, and repeats why he did it. It's to demonstrate his power. Now, you have to know something about the Pharaoh of Egypt â€" the Pharaoh was considered a living god. Yahuwahu is showing Pharaoh that he has the bigger divine dick.

16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the Lord your God, and against you. 17 Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the Lord your God, that he may take away from me this death only. 18 And he went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the Lord. 19 And the Lord turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. 20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

So here Pharaoh was, pleading for mercy from the plague of locusts. This was a plea that was not caused by Yahuwahu's meddling, but Pharaoh's true heart. He'd clearly had enough by this point. But when Yahuwahu sends the locusts away, what did he do? Hardened Pharaoh's heart again. Fuckssake, Exodus itself was portraying Pharaoh to be at his wits end and was going to let the Israelites go just to get them out of his beeswax-greased hair â€"which was what Yahuwahu and Moses wantedâ€" yet Yahuwahu, the jerk, forced him back into the game that he didn't want to play. What an asshole!

And it continues:

27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11, the plauge of the firstborn, the divine faggotry continues:

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. 10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Again, more divine dick-wagging. Again, Yahuwahu tramples Pharaoh's free will just so that he could show off once more.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

Read that again, "ALL OF THE FIRSTBORN" in the land of Egypt. Beasts as well as people. (Whatever did the beasts do to the Israelites?) You are fucking insane if you think this would amount to ten people. You are also fucking insane if you think that all (or even most) of these firstborn had anything to do with the slavery of the Israelites. Indeed this is underlined later in the section:

30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

"There was not a house where there was not one dead." This is not ten people. This is hundreds of thousands. The population of Egypt at the time was a cool million. Most of those would never have seen an Israelite slave, let alone own one.

31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the Lord, as ye have said. 32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also. 33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.

Okay, now we're on the right track. Pharaoh finally is free to tell the Israelites to get the fuck out of Egypt and take their god with them. Like he was ready to do since Exodus 10:16 before Yahuwahu was a dick to him.

Now, how many finaly made it out of Egypt?

Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Hundreds of thousands of people, and their livestock. Remember that. It'll be important later.

Ah, but we're not done with Pharaoh yet. In Exodus 14, he does something really really strange given the previous few sections:

5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?

Are ye daft, Pharaoh?!! Did you not remember how their god hardened your heart and made you keep them against your own will just so that Yahuwahu could show how badass he is and how ineffectual you are as a "living god"? What possessed you to do this?

6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him: 7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them. 8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

Oh, of course. You were, in fact, possessed. Possessed by the jerk-ass god Yahuwahu.

To sum up, yes, the God of the Bible is evil to the core. Exodus is a book where Yahuwahu absolutely revels in his ass-kicking power, such that he has to set up Pharaoh and the entirety of Egypt as his punching bag. This is an evil act by any sane standard of morality.

It also blows away any excuse that God doesn't want to violate our free will. He was perfectly willing to do so for the Pharaoh of Egypt, on multiple occasions.

And remember those hundreds of thousands of people with their livestock fleeing Egypt? Didn't happen. See, a group that large would leave signs behind. They would throw away their trash, and their livestock would eat whatever was on the way, leaving a clear archeological signal behind. It is exactly this that we do not find. There was no Exodus.

Excellent!  And there was no Moses.  Just as there is no Jesus.  And no god.

[Mike Cl]

Really? I don't care which way you interpret it as either way its a red herring. What is interesting is the eagerness to jump on something so silly.

I will be praying for you  .

Oh, goody, goody!

[Drummer Guy]

We are in a realm limited by the laws of physics. The only plausible explanation is that we have a creator not limited by this as in our realm 0 + 0 does not = 1.

Suggesting anything else (aliens, astronaut, primordial sludge) is simply moving the goal posts and denying reality / wasting time.

I still don't know what you mean.  What are we beyond our physical selves?  And more importantly, how do you know?

[Hakurei Reimu]

1. What do you think happens when you are about to go to hell / die? Do you think God is softening your heart? When someones sin is full measure, God stops working on them. God is working on everyone's heart Rev 3:20. He has done this OT and NT. When you die, all hope is gone. Look at Sodom, their sin was full measure and death was inevitable. God hardened is simply Him not softening / working on the heart. Ie God has given up trying to get through to the guy. So God gave him completely over to his desires / hardened his heart. God just didnt give him over to the devil because He wanted to use him.

Under no version of the English language does "hardening" mean "not softening." Your spew otherwise is just your worthless spin-doctoring to try to dodge around the implications of what is written in plain English: Yahuwahu was directly meddling with the will of a living human to get him to do what he would normally not.

Furthermore, if anything, what you describe casts your god in an even WORSE light. It's basically a tacit admission that not one person would come to Yahuwahu unless he meddled with their hearts. Sorry, chum, but you've just admitted that everyone who accepted Yahuwahu's word had done so by way of the worst psychological manipulation.

Now God uses the evil if He must / can. Yes God did use Pharoah to make an example.

But it wasn't just the Pharaoh who suffered Yahuwahu's wrath, was it? It was the entire nation of Egypt. Remember, not a single family of Egyptians escape without losing someone, and that's not even counting the damage caused by the previous nine plagues. These are victims who were blameless in the slavery of the Israelites.

Now the real confusion comes in when we read Rom 9. God of the universe can do anything and who are we to question Him. Calvinists would hence agree with you. But sadly for them (and you) the rest of the bible tells us what in fact God does decide to do with His power. John 3:16 alone debunks Calvinism and your take. Acts 10:34 says clearly that God is no respecter of persons. If God really did wrong Pharoah, he would be crying blue murder when in hell and rightly so. All the humans and the angels in heaven would raise this with God. God of the universe says in His word that we will not see through a glass darkly in heaven. Meaning we will better grasp all things. Meaning if we currently grasp partiality is evil, how much more then? We will help Pharoah out of hell if he was wronged....that desire for righteousness comes from God...so to assume God would not be the first to help him out of hell is 100% hilarious.

This is merely a post-hoc rationalization of you and other christians trying to make moral sense of a scenario where Yahuwahu is clearly acting immorally by any modern standard.

Back in the day Exodus was written, the Hebrew writers thought nothing of Yahuwahu's treatment of Pharaoh, because Pharaoh was not one of Yahuwahu's charges and as such didn't owe him a fucking thing. After all, Pharaoh had his own pantheon of gods he could draw upon to help him, and was a living god himself according to the Egyptians (a fact that any culture that had spent any time in Egypt would have been clued in on) â€" the fact that Pharaoh and his gods couldn't stand up to Yahuwahu was neither Yahuwahu's fault, nor his concern. This is what allowed them to square away how manipulating Pharaoh's heart was righteous â€" in their eyes, it was righteous on its face. But morality evolved since then and now such behavior looks exactly like what it is: bronze-age barbarism. So you guys have to wring your hands and make excuses for your god.

What you admit with your references to Rom 9 and Acts 10:34 is that Yahuwahu follows a "Might Makes Right" approach to morality. No, we've progressed beyond that point. An evil act is an evil act no matter who causes it and how powerful he is.

Furthermore, how would you know that Pharaoh isn't crying blue murder in hell? Have you visited it lately? And why would angels created by Yahuwahu to serve him question him about any of his acts? Why would an immoral god not surround himself with sycophants, and as such shield him from any human in heaven who would question his morality? And how would you know that we "would not see through a glass darkly in heaven"? Have you visited that place recently? What if in heavevn I would find his actions just as disgusting, if not more?

But of course I wouldn't be there because I'm not a bootlicking toady.

It's hillarious how you are blinded to a situation where anywhere else would be a clear con game. No information coming from people who previously taken the offer? No recourse if what I find out that what I had taken up was a raw deal? Promise of an infinite reward of candy and funness at the right hand of your best buddies Jesus and God, we promise, cross our hearts and hope to die stick a needle in our eyes? If this were any other scenario, you would be running away screaming.

I am truly amazed that you single this out and ignore the many other scriptures that point to God being in favor of impartiality!!!!

If you think Yahuwahu's "Might Makes Right" attitude is an example of 'impartiality,' then you are truly delusional.

Mind boggling how someone can profess to know the bible well and yet judge God of the bible so terribly.

Shove that condecending attitude up your ass. Real biblical schollars see the bible as it actually is: an anthology of bronze-age myths with a clear pedigree of additions and revisions.

2. What archeological evidence you want to find? They were in a desert. Quite hard to dig up fossils in a desert wouldn't you agree?

No. For one thing they would be visiting oases along the way to Judea, which provides obvious spots to look. Furthermore, we know of some of the waypoints where the Israelites supposedly gathered and made camp. Hundreds of thousands of people and their livestock making camp in one spot is going to leave a mark visible millennia later, even in a desert, because the desert is very very good at preserving things. That's one of the reasons why we know so bloody much about Egypt in the first place â€" because the civilization had made it's home on the fertile banks of the Nile, in the middle of a huge fuck-off desert. Hell, we've found stuff that the Egyptians were TRYING to hide in the desert.

Furthermore, if so many Israelites left Egypt, why is it that Egypt, one of the most impressive bureaucracies of the ancient world, never made note of it? Because the sudden removal of the best part of a million people from your economy (because even if they were slaves, the Israelites would still have to be fed and sheltered) is going to disrupt it and cause it to reorganize. But *pfft* nuthin'. Same with the plagues.

[aitm]

14 pages…let me know when you've had enough of this moron.

[Drummer Guy]

14 pages…let me know when you've had enough of this moron.

I'm interested to see how he answers my questions as we keep going with the line of discussion about us being more than just physical.

[Mike Cl]

Furthermore, if so many Israelites left Egypt, why is it that Egypt, one of the most impressive bureaucracies of the ancient world, never made note of it? Because the sudden removal of the best part of a million people from your economy (because even if they were slaves, the Israelites would still have to be fed and sheltered) is going to disrupt it and cause it to reorganize. But *pfft* nuthin'. Same with the plagues.

It has always amazed me that so many christians today believe in the OT fairy tales and legends. One can start from the very beginning of Genesis and the Adam and Eve stories--they think this is history.  Amazing!  A main fox news man suggested that the remains of Noah's Ark was found after 2,000 years of searching.  Sodom, Gomorrah, Lot, Moses, and on and on........all history.  And they expect that everybody should accept this crap at face value and as they say it happened.  What can one term it other than they are insane. 

[trdsf]

14 pages…let me know when you've had enough of this moron.

I was kinda surprised it hadn't happened already, but that's why it's your call and not mine.  I'd've flushed that toilet pages ago.

[Baruch]

It isn't bad to have an "inner child" ... the trick is in toilet training him/her ;-)

"Is. God. Knowable?" ... for me the answer is yes.  "Is. God. Understandable?" ... for me the answer is no.  I find the "human" aspect of G-d troubling, and the "inhuman" aspect of G-d to be ... monstrous.  Think of Rabbi Cthulhu ... basically as G-d is described at the end of the Book of Job.

For most of the rest of you, your epistemological choices preclude "knowing a god" by definition.  With Rabbi Cthulhu ... he promises to eat the Jews last (we are the desert).

[KingJ]

[quote author=KingJ link=topic=7729.msg1082718#msg1082718 date=1436860927

But anyways, on Isaiah 45:7. The word evil there is not '''God made you torture your pet'' rather it is ''God brings calamity''.Bullshit bullshit bullshit.


And this is why you should just go away.

You are a slippery little shit and we do not want you here.

Go away.

Original Greek, Hebrew and simple hermeneutics agree with me.

I must go because I want to scrutinize the bible ''properly'' / give God of the bible a ''fair'' trial.

I don't think you would be impressed if someone purposely missinterpreted or did not even try to properly interpret something you wrote. Especially if it is something of importance.

[Mike Cl]

Original Greek, Hebrew and simple hermeneutics agree with me.

I must go because I want to scrutinize the bible ''properly'' / give God of the bible a ''fair'' trial.

I don't think you would be impressed if someone purposely missinterpreted or did not even try to properly interpret something you wrote. Especially if it is something of importance.

Oh I quite agree!  Paul Bunyan would be quite upset if we were to misinterpret the history of he and his Blue Ox.  Yes, indeed!

[KingJ]

1. Under no version of the English language does "hardening" mean "not softening." Your spew otherwise is just your worthless spin-doctoring to try to dodge around the implications of what is written in plain English: Yahuwahu was directly meddling with the will of a living human to get him to do what he would normally not.

2. Furthermore, if anything, what you describe casts your god in an even WORSE light. It's basically a tacit admission that not one person would come to Yahuwahu unless he meddled with their hearts. Sorry, chum, but you've just admitted that everyone who accepted Yahuwahu's word had done so by way of the worst psychological manipulation.

3. But it wasn't just the Pharaoh who suffered Yahuwahu's wrath, was it? It was the entire nation of Egypt. Remember, not a single family of Egyptians escape without losing someone, and that's not even counting the damage caused by the previous nine plagues. These are victims who were blameless in the slavery of the Israelites.

4. This is merely a post-hoc rationalization of you and other christians trying to make moral sense of a scenario where Yahuwahu is clearly acting immorally by any modern standard.

5. bronze-age barbarism. So you guys have to wring your hands and make excuses for your god.

6. What you admit with your references to Rom 9 and Acts 10:34 is that Yahuwahu follows a "Might Makes Right" approach to morality. No, we've progressed beyond that point. An evil act is an evil act no matter who causes it and how powerful he is.

7. Furthermore, how would you know that Pharaoh isn't crying blue murder in hell? Have you visited it lately? And why would angels created by Yahuwahu to serve him question him about any of his acts? Why would an immoral god not surround himself with sycophants, and as such shield him from any human in heaven who would question his morality? And how would you know that we "would not see through a glass darkly in heaven"? Have you visited that place recently? What if in heavevn I would find his actions just as disgusting, if not more?

8. But of course I wouldn't be there because I'm not a bootlicking toady.

9. If you think Yahuwahu's "Might Makes Right" attitude is an example of 'impartiality,' then you are truly delusional. Shove that condecending attitude up your ass. Real biblical schollars see the bible as it actually is: an anthology of bronze-age myths with a clear pedigree of additions and revisions.

10. No. For one thing they would be visiting oases along the way to Judea, which provides obvious spots to look. Furthermore, we know of some of the waypoints where the Israelites supposedly gathered and made camp. Hundreds of thousands of people and their livestock making camp in one spot is going to leave a mark visible millennia later, even in a desert, because the desert is very very good at preserving things. That's one of the reasons why we know so bloody much about Egypt in the first place â€" because the civilization had made it's home on the fertile banks of the Nile, in the middle of a huge fuck-off desert. Hell, we've found stuff that the Egyptians were TRYING to hide in the desert.

11. Furthermore, if so many Israelites left Egypt, why is it that Egypt, one of the most impressive bureaucracies of the ancient world, never made note of it? Because the sudden removal of the best part of a million people from your economy (because even if they were slaves, the Israelites would still have to be fed and sheltered) is going to disrupt it and cause it to reorganize. But *pfft* nuthin'. Same with the plagues.

1. If you are spending time with your kids you are developing a closer relationship with them. If you are not, you are making their hearts grow cold toward you. You would only have an argument if there was evidence of Pharoah being a God fearing / good man. Though the evidence is against you as cruel slave owners are generally not good people.

2. Huh? He is trying to reach all of us. Re-read the verse I quoted.

3. Blameless? I have already discussed this. They were not blameless. We also know from many OT examples that those who side with God escape His wrath. But you know this don't you...

4.Acting immorally? It is immoral to want to punish mortal sinners? It is immoral to warn them over and over before you punish them? What you smoking?

5. ''Might makes right''' You got that from what I wrote? Did you miss me saying ''the rest of the bible shows us what in fact God decides to do with His power?...John 3:16 for starters''? Just because God can be cruel does not mean He is cruel.  CAN and IS are different words.

6. Agreed. That is why it is impressive to grasp that God has nothing to hide. He invites our judgment by making us smarter in heaven. Heck even now with our God given brains. Not sure someone can always be SO biased when using their God given brain. You ''''''really'''''' believe God did not expect you to use your brain to judge Him / could not see your judgment coming / stated that He is good whilst knowing the brain he gave us would judge Him as evil....please think on this more.

7. We are judging God of the bible with the bible. The bible says we will not see through a glass darkly. The fact that angels are good and Christians / His people are supposed to be the type that lay their life down for you should tell you all you need to know about God...as you were alluding to.

8. That has nothing to do with it. Think more on these scriptures Rom 12:9, James 1:27.

9. Real scholars would not make such terrible reading blunders or ignore history and current reality just because a little doubt is cast.

10. I disagree. If they set up camp there will be no evidence today. Albeit 600 000 + people. They left in 1446bc. 3500 years of history on the same spots can never be traced to them. Unless they built up a town, which we know they didn't.

11.Well it is always interesting how one nation records history differently to another. Must I really explain why they would do such?

[KingJ]

I'm interested to see how he answers my questions as we keep going with the line of discussion about us being more than just physical.

We are not having a discussion. I am stating a fact and you are playing dumb.

Can you make a dead baby come to life. Yes  or No

[KingJ]

14 pages…let me know when you've had enough of this moron.

Moron?

I am on two Christian forums for years now and I have seen many atheists come and go. We would never call you guys morons. We would only give warnings when you curse and pass insults. Any Christian that would pass an insult or be rude gets a warning.

[KingJ]

Excellent!  And there was no Moses.  Just as there is no Jesus.  And no god.

Mike just wondering. You know that I am not here to convince you that Jesus exists? I am not even here to convince you that God exists. Simply that we need to all hate what is evil and love what is good Rom 12:9. Judge ourselves hasrshly on this 1 Cor 11:31 and then it becomes God's oness to reveal Himself to us.

The only difference between you and I is that I believe God has done that with me with Jesus.