Did Jesus ever exist?

[popsthebuilder]

Considering that this is what you brought up when pressed for evidence, yes, I think it was meant to be that -- at the very least it isn't unreasonable of me to take it as being meant that way, under the terms of the discussion so far.

And really, the only objection I have to all this is the word 'know'.  You don't 'know'.  You believe very strongly, and I don't question that, but you do not have actual knowledge.  Knowledge is that which is demonstrable, and subject to further independent observation.  Harking back to my earlier point, despite my near certainty that there is other intelligent life in this galaxy, and regardless of how certain I am of it, I would never say I 'know' it's out there.

I don't know what to tell you. Again; if you limit knowledge to that which can be repeated by mere men then that is your own flaw in logic and vanity.

To be clear; if it was only that all sacred ancient and non ancient texts seemed to be of a single accord, and that certain ones actually outright speak to this and other obvious similarities, then I could justifiably state that I believe a thing. But the fact that it only verifies what I had already been shown from an outside source(experience we have been talking about)within a grand experience and revelation (for and to me personally) in itself, makes it undeniable to me, and as such, indeed known. I do not expect that you would consider my words knowledge. I would contend however, that if the same or similar had happened to you, then you would attest to such similarly as I have, except most assuredly more legibly and coherently.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Mike Cl]

I don't know what to tell you. Again; if you limit knowledge to that which can be repeated by mere men then that is your own flaw in logic and vanity.

This is the frustration in trying to communicate with you.  "Mere" men are all there is--and 'knowledge' has to be repeatable for it to be knowledge; otherwise it is only belief.  You have your BELIEF--and that is fine--for you better than fine.  But do not expect me to share 'your' belief because you believe it.  In order for me to accept your 'belief' as factual, I have to see some proof.  Your 'logic' is not logic--it is a self accepted set of beliefs which you accept as personal proof.  Fine.  It works well for you.  That's good.  But your choice of those words simply blocks communication with you.  Most on this forum accept the fact that your have your own belief system, and one that works wonders for you on a personal level.  Great!  But don't use words like 'knowledge', or 'logic' when describing it.   

[Baruch]

So you think that Flavius Josephus arranging the suicide lotteries at Mesada so that he would be the lone survivor makes sense?

Jotapata ... Modern Biblical Scholar (Gilbert and Sullivan)

[trdsf]

I don't know what to tell you. Again; if you limit knowledge to that which can be repeated by mere men then that is your own flaw in logic and vanity.

To be clear; if it was only that all sacred ancient and non ancient texts seemed to be of a single accord, and that certain ones actually outright speak to this and other obvious similarities, then I could justifiably state that I believe a thing. But the fact that it only verifies what I had already been shown from an outside source(experience we have been talking about)within a grand experience and revelation (for and to me personally) in itself, makes it undeniable to me, and as such, indeed known. I do not expect that you would consider my words knowledge. I would contend however, that if the same or similar had happened to you, then you would attest to such similarly as I have, except most assuredly more legibly and coherently.

Needless to say, I do not regard holding to logic and observation to be a flaw, but a virtue.  It requires me to constantly examine my own thinking and beliefs, rather than just settling on something and allowing it to rest inviolate.

You may or may not believe me, but even when I was myself religious I never claimed knowledge of the metaphysical, and recognized my own perceived experiences as being anecdotal at best.

[popsthebuilder]

Needless to say, I do not regard holding to logic and observation to be a flaw, but a virtue.  It requires me to constantly examine my own thinking and beliefs, rather than just settling on something and allowing it to rest inviolate.

You may or may not believe me, but even when I was myself religious I never claimed knowledge of the metaphysical, and recognized my own perceived experiences as being anecdotal at best.

As I would too in any other case.

I looked into alternate explanations. Also, the revelation(about singular accord/harmony and profitable existence for all) or rather, checking how it matched with the written words of the faithful was too a way to check the validity of what I had come to believe. To be clear I do draw the line between belief and knowledge. But I do know that I experienced GOD on some level, be it a wholy internal event (which it was not given radio malfunction), or the Holy Spirit, or a lesser angel or spirit of GOD. Based solely on the nature and breadth of the experience I can only say it was GOD. When it happened( the lifting of all burden) it was simply known that it was GOD. It wasn't a conclusion of thought as bad as that sounds.  But I have done quite a bit of inquiry into explanations. What some people don't get is that a "natural" explanation in no way negated GOD as the ultimate cause.

peace
faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

As I would too in any other case

faith in selfless unity for good

Observation and logic ...
All Greeks are human
Socrates is Greek
Therefore Socrates is human

But by what observation can I justify my first two premises?

[trdsf]

As I would too in any other case.

And why is this a special case?  This is carving out an exemption in reality in which to wedge your beliefs, not ensuring your beliefs accord with reality.

[popsthebuilder]

And why is this a special case?  This is carving out an exemption in reality in which to wedge your beliefs, not ensuring your beliefs accord with reality.

And where have I exempted reality exactly?

faith in selfless unity for good

[aitm]

meh....born again drug addict...born again drunk....much the same...failures. Can't handle life on their own, or so they think, so they conjure up a different version of a dad and voila, all is good again.

Many of us have similar stories but we didn't get all pussified and beg for something else to give us balls. Meh....weak people, no spine. The truth is you did everything yourself that you give your imaginary wizard all the credit for. Too bad, you finally proved you could do it and you couldn't even thank yourself for the courage. Sad.

[Baruch]

It is hard being an ape man ... go easy on us, and make some more paint for the cave, man!

[trdsf]

And where have I exempted reality exactly?

As soon as you said you would "in any other case".  You're making an exemption for your opinion rather than ensuring your opinion accords with reality.

[popsthebuilder]

meh....born again drug addict...born again drunk....much the same...failures. Can't handle life on their own, or so they think, so they conjure up a different version of a dad and voila, all is good again.

Many of us have similar stories but we didn't get all pussified and beg for something else to give us balls. Meh....weak people, no spine. The truth is you did everything yourself that you give your imaginary wizard all the credit for. Too bad, you finally proved you could do it and you couldn't even thank yourself for the courage. Sad.

Are you an illiterate moron?

I hope you get better if so.

I gave credit to GOD and thanks for a literal feeling of removal of burden and revelations.

I was already well on the road to recovery.

Also; me not wholly snapping and offing someone was me too.

Did you even read it?

My faith had actually softened my resolve in most cases, not strengthened it.

My anger was my drive.

When it was removed I was indeed weakened in one way.

I take credit and responsibility for my own actions and the lack there of; always have; always will.

I may be a hypocrite, but I'm not a vain hypocrite; I don't think I am exempt from judgement as some niave hypocrites do.

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

As soon as you said you would "in any other case".  You're making an exemption for your opinion rather than ensuring your opinion accords with reality.

As stated; I checked all readily available scenarios or explanations. If you have one I haven't checked into, then I will. I can only give my word though, and wouldn't be able to prove it exactly.

faith in selfless unity for good

[trdsf]

As stated; I checked all readily available scenarios or explanations. If you have one I haven't checked into, then I will. I can only give my word though, and wouldn't be able to prove it exactly.

I have the simplest one of all: you finally got around to taking responsibility for yourself and your behavior.  Crediting your turnaround to a supernatural source is selling yourself short.  As for what happened to the radio?  I don't know.  I can only assume that it happened to go out at that time -- radio stations (and I have done radio, so I know) experience 'dead air' all the time.  The transmitter blows a fuse, the engineer throws the wrong switch, there are any number of reasons a radio station might fade out and none of them require supernatural interference.

And coincidence isn't as uncommon as people think.  Weird things happen all the time, and that's only because you have billions of events happening to billions of people.  With numbers like that, something weird has to happen to someone somewhere.

Also, I have to say, disabling a radio seems a pretty picayune and mundane 'miracle' for an allegedly all-powerful entity to pull off.  It's vastly more likely that you assigned meaning to it in retrospect, and that it faded out for perfectly physical reasons.

[Blackleaf]

I didn't realize I had skirted around anything. Let me clarify my position.

Though the will of GOD is absolute and unrestrained, it isn't random as far as I can tell. I must admit that your opinion on what the bible says matches that of the ignorant. This isn't an insult and really is better than actually dishonestly saying such.

1 Corinthians: 15. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians: 15. 28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Lamentations: 3. 31. For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32. But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

1 Timothy: 4. 10. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Colossians: 1. 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

C. Other Verses Show That, by Itself, Inward Faith Will Not Save.

John 12:42,43 - People "believed" in Jesus but would not confess Him, because they loved the praises of men more than the praises of God. Were they saved? (Cf. Rom. 10:9,10; Matt. 10:32,33.)

James 2:19,20 - Even devils believe. Are they saved?

James 2:14,24 - Can faith save withoutobedience? No, that is a dead faith (v17,20,26). Man is not justified by "faith only." This is the only passage that mentions "faith only," and it says we are not justified by it! Men say justification by faith only is a wholesome, comforting doctrine; but the Bible flatly says we are not justified by faith only!

Some say these people were unsaved because they have the wrong kind of faith: They have intellectual conviction, but they do not trust Jesus to save them. We are making progress! We now agree that faith is essential to salvation, but there are different kinds of faith! Faith is necessary, but there are kinds of faith that do not save, even when people believe in God and Jesus.

The issue then is: What kind of faith saves, and what does that saving faith include? Does it include repentance, confession, obedience to Divine commands, and even baptism? Before answering, let us add more information.

II. Many Things Are Essential to Salvation.

A. Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

God's grace (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1:7; Titus 2:11,12; Acts 15:11)

Jesus' death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:6-10; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; 1 Corinthians 15:17; 1 Peter 3:21)

The gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 1:23-25; Acts 11:14; James 1:18,21; 1 Corinthians 15:1,2; John 8:31,32)

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Faith (see the verses listed above)

Love (1 Corinthians 16:22; 13:1-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:7,8)

Hope (Romans 8:24)

Repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; Luke 13:3,5; 2 Peter 3:9)

Obedience (Hebrews 5:9; Romans 6:17,18; 1 Peter 1:22; Acts 10:34,35; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26)

Confession of Christ (Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:32)

Baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27; Colossians 2:12,13)

Faithfulness (Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; Matthew 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6)

The freedom to choose is synonymous with free will. Now go and look if we are told to make any choices in scripture, and get back with me. In fact, loose whatever preconceived notions of scripture Christ and GOD you have from whatever old religious experience lead you so far off. It is the will of God that man have freedom to choose.

Substantiate your false claims.





faith in selfless unity for good

I see your cherrypicked verses that vaguely seem sort of related to the subject and raise you a long list of verses that clearly show that god does not give a damn about free will, nor that he grants it to anyone:

Genesis 50:18-21 - His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.

But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don't be afraid. I will provide for you and your children." And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord works out everything to its proper end,
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Proverbs 16:9 - In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the LORD establishes their steps.

Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 20:24 - A person's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand their own way?

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things."

Isaiah 45:8 - "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it."

Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

Luke 18:24-27 - Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

John 6:35-39 - Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

John 6:44,63-65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

..."The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you, they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

John 8:42-47 - Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 10:25-30 - Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 12:37-40 - Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

"He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn, and I would heal them."

John 13:18 - I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: "He who shared my bread has turned against me."

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit; fruit that will last, and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

John 17:1-2 - After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

John 17:6-9 - "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."

Acts 4:27-28 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:10-21 - Not only that, but Rebekah's children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls, she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Romans 11:7 - What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 - "Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things, and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God; that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."

Ephesians 1:4-6 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will; to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Ephesians 1:11-12 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-5 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions; it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 - For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 - But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:8-10 - Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

James 1:18 - He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

James 2:5 - Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

1 Peter 1:1-5 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 2:7-8 - Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

"The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"

and,

"A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."

They stumble because they disobey the message; which is also what they were destined for.

Revelation 17:8 - The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Revelation 17:17 - "For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God's words are fulfilled."