Yes it is just a movie, so read this with a grain of salt.
There isn't much that has changed in pop culture. I may catch some flack for the following, but I have had a change of position on the original Star Wars series. Of course it is the old standard of "Good vs Evil". And yes kind motifs of being there for your friends, loyalty and standing up to the bully. However, it still reflects the popularity of religion, even if fiction.
In one scene Luke is practicing his light saber skills on the Falcon, Han makes rightful skeptic remarks to the idea of religion. Obi Wan tells him to "trust his feelings", then puts on the blast shield and successfully while blind, defends himself from the mechanical training ball. I really hate this constant marketing in all media of playing off of people's feelings.
In real training, such as the Hudson river landing, it wasn't "feelings" that got that plane down safely, but training, and even mechanical redundancy that pilots are trained in pre flight simulators to simulate such events prior to the reality of one actually happening.
But, the most insidious meme in "Return of the Jedi", smacks of similarities of Saul, being a former monster whom becomes good and forgiven and becomes Paul. Darth Vadar from the first movie, is a dictator, genocidal and even kills those who fail him, not once, but several times. In the final minutes in the last battle between Luke and Darth Vadar, Darth realizes his mistake and turns on his own evil master and kills him to save Luke. Luke then tries to save him. Sounds nice.
It is one thing to realize you have hurt others. It is another to let your brains fall out and forgive a monster. This move reflects the same horrible logic of the god/s of Abraham. But Brian, it is just fiction. I will still give it credit for it's time being a visual masterpiece, well acted, and brilliant music score. But I cannot bring myself to value the same old crap of distorting human morality to comic book levels. I cannot value a meme that teaches us to go with our feelings. The Death Star alone, paints technology as evil, and is so dominating in that series it gets you to forget that the heros are also using technology to defeat them.
No, don't "trust your feelings". It is ok to have them, but we don't need mass media telling us in any form that "feelings" constitute truth. I have come to hate Obi Wan as much as Darth Vadar, just like I hate both God and Satan.
Please don't take this as a criticism; I respect you as a person. Have you considered therapy?
Another similarity with current religions is the variability of morals. When Luke is facing the Emperor, he is tempted to "fetch" his light sabre with the force, but doesn't because it would be wrong. Yet, many other times, Luke and other Jedis do exactly that.
The Force is a cafeteria religion, like Christianity.
Frank
Did you read the first line? Not being a sheep over pop culture does not mean I need therapy. Yes it is just a movie. But still doesn't change that it has very horrible memes in it.
The dictator Darth despite all his murderous actions and oppression is forgiven in the end. That meme goes way beyond merely forgiving someone for something non violent, such as lying to a friend, or hurting their feelings.
And again, humans have feelings, we wouldn't evolve without them. The character Obi Wan teaches us the same thing "faith" does in reality, to go with what science knows and psychology knows is notoriously flawed, our perceptions.
Pointing these horrible memes out does not mean I am advocating any serious censorship in reality. Just giving people something to think about to be aware that pop culture does have an influence on us.
Secondly, at least with me, don't use the word "respect". I hate that word. I prefer what I say to be "valued", not "respected". If you think I am full of shit, not just on this issue, but on even real issues, then "respect" is not something you should do. When claims are credible they don't need to be "respected". They get the shit kicked out of them and survive despite the shit kicking.
I for one find it a tad disturbing that you focus in on it in that light. It is a fiction created as a mashup of western/samurai stereotypes with a faux religion thrown in. In case you hadn't noticed, you seem to have an obsessive personality- Abba, the Redskins and now this.
QuoteThe dictator Darth despite all his murderous actions and oppression is forgiven in the end. That meme goes way beyond merely forgiving someone for something non violent, such as lying to a friend, or hurting their feelings.
I dunno. If you don't forgive people for the bad things they do, there's no reason for them to stop doing bad things. The only way to ever get people to actually try and improve is if you're willing to let them make amends and forgive them for the past.
QuoteThe character Obi Wan teaches us the same thing "faith" does in reality, to go with what science knows and psychology knows is notoriously flawed, our perceptions.
There is a minor difference... in the Star Wars universe faith
actually works. I wouldn't object to people having faith in our world if they could use it to force choke people and dodge bullets blindfolded.
You seem to be obsessed about him being obsessed. :lol: Solitary
No one is saying you don't forgive, but that does not mean you forget, and certainly you don't give monsters a pass.
If anyone in my family became a serial killer, whatever kindness they showed outside their crimes still would not negate what they did. It is the same mental mind trap Christianity dodges with the OT god and NT god. The OT god is violent and bloodthirsty, in the NT there is a half assed attempt to say "I won't do that anymore", but at the end of the book, this god goes right back to being a vengeful prick.
Again, there is a huge difference between forgiving someone for something minor and non violent, and forgiving a repeat violent offender.
Now most of the time while it does no good to get revenge yourself, you be foolish to let it go. In reality I am not for revenge punishment, but containment. So with the "Darth" character, if in the movie had lived, I would have put in prison for life, even if he had said he was sorry.
There's no real telling what would've happened if Darth Vader survived, though. Just because Luke tried to save him doesn't mean he was just going to let him get off the hook after.
(Also, it shouldn't count as "repeat offender" if someone does something multiple times before the first time they actually try to change. Repeat offender should be about relapse, not repition.)
Quote from: "stromboli"I for one find it a tad disturbing that you focus in on it in that light. It is a fiction created as a mashup of western/samurai stereotypes with a faux religion thrown in. In case you hadn't noticed, you seem to have an obsessive personality- Abba, the Redskins and now this.
Yes, because I am not famous or rich. Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, are ok critics of religion, because they made it. Poor no names do the same thing and they are "obsessed".
As far as ABBA or the Redskins those are my personal tastes. Go look around the net at other avatars, you find people have all sorts of avatars that display their personal tastes. Since when is it illegal for people to make displays of the personal things they like?
Now, go re read the first line in this OP ED until you get it.I am serious about some issues yes. But I always find it funny when people take me more seriously than I take myself.
Well at least he's not obsessed with freefall and the WTC and secret gubnit agents sabotaging all of it then blaming it all on innocent Muslim terrorists.
GEEZ, now suddenly I'm the defender of Brian? 8-[
Quote from: "Plu"There's no real telling what would've happened if Darth Vader survived, though. Just because Luke tried to save him doesn't mean he was just going to let him get off the hook after.
(Also, it shouldn't count as "repeat offender" if someone does something multiple times before the first time they actually try to change. Repeat offender should be about relapse, not repition.)
Um it is implied. The last scene of "Return of the Jedi", the are all celebrating in the forest and Luke looks up to the tree branch with the ghosts of Obi, Yoda and Anikan(Darth Vadar) standing on it. Luke smiles at them. Looks like forgiveness to me.
Still I don't care if they don't repeat in real life. There is a huge difference between accidental death, heat of passion, and repeated murder which the Darth character committed. People who murder can have regret and not repeat, yes. But selfish people who keep doing it are too far gone mentally and are sociopaths and psychopaths in reality.
Darth is the Hitler of that movie. The "storm trooper" name came from the Nazis, and the over sized helmets were a reflection of German helmets along with the officer green motifs under Darth. The empire in the movie was literally modeled off of Germany's WW2 Nazis.
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Well at least he's not obsessed with freefall and the WTC and secret gubnit agents sabotaging all of it then blaming it all on innocent Muslim terrorists.
GEEZ, now suddenly I'm the defender of Brian? 8-[
Thank you. ABBA hasn't been accused of bringing down the towers, but give it time, I'll be part of the WTC conspiracy at some point.
Maybe if he played "Dancing Queen" backwards, they'll find a secret message from Bush giving the hijackers the ok to plant the explosives.
Yeah the final scene is a bit weird. I've always understood the idea was that in the end a corruption was lifted from Darth Vader, and that was why he was returned as a normal being. But I can see your point yeah. Up until that scene it seems to work, but the last scene is a bit of a stretch.
***prepares to defend Brian......except about ABBA.....and Redskins....and uhhh Obi Wan.. (or pretty much everything) :)
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteThe dictator Darth despite all his murderous actions and oppression is forgiven in the end. That meme goes way beyond merely forgiving someone for something non violent, such as lying to a friend, or hurting their feelings.
I dunno. If you don't forgive people for the bad things they do, there's no reason for them to stop doing bad things. The only way to ever get people to actually try and improve is if you're willing to let them make amends and forgive them for the past.
QuoteThe character Obi Wan teaches us the same thing "faith" does in reality, to go with what science knows and psychology knows is notoriously flawed, our perceptions.
There is a minor difference... in the Star Wars universe faith actually works. I wouldn't object to people having faith in our world if they could use it to force choke people and dodge bullets blindfolded.
We didn't forgive Germany after WW1, that part was a mistake which allowed Hitler to rise. But after WW2 we did forgive German(as a whole), but still held those in power who caused it to account. If Hitler had not committed suicide, we wouldn't have let him walk free.
Again, forgive in what context? If North Korea suddenly got toppled you'd be able to forgive the society, but not Un himself.
QuoteIf North Korea suddenly got toppled you'd be able to forgive the society, but not Un himself.
If North Korea suddenly got toppled, then Un would not be in a state of repenting, and thus deserve no forgiveness.
Now if Un decided to suddenly apply all his wealth and power to making life better for the people in his country, I'd have very little problems forgiving him for past misdoings. Or at least, I'd rather people just let him work it (even without forgiving him) over deciding to go in and shoot our new philanthrope in the head for past deeds now that his guard was down.
See, now this is why the bible was way ahead of its time. If it had just waited for Hooeywood and all those crazy special effects it would've been a cult classic by now. :-D
Quote from: "Brian37"Darth is the Hitler of that movie. The "storm trooper" name came from the Nazis, and the over sized helmets were a reflection of German helmets along with the officer green motifs under Darth. The empire in the movie was literally modeled off of Germany's WW2 Nazis.
True, but we never get the full story on that. The only perspective we have on the Empire is through the eyes of the Rebels. Sure, they have a massive military, rule by force ("Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."), kill civilians, and use enhanced interrogation techniques, but enough about American foreign policy, I'm trying to talk about the Galactic Empire here :P
It's possible that they're actually far less murderous and ruthless than one one might think. The Ewoks had a large and prosperous village that apparently coexisted quite peaceably with the local Imperials. And (Alderaan notwithstanding) the various systems that the Empire controls did just fine unless they rebel against the Empire. Cloud City would even stay independent provided they stop sheltering rebels. Sounds like a good deal to me.
All their actions in the movies were drastic measures taken because of a continually escalating insurrection and not their default state.
Quote from: "Brian37"But, the most insidious meme in "Return of the Jedi", smacks of similarities of Saul, being a former monster whom becomes good and forgiven and becomes Paul. Darth Vadar from the first movie, is a dictator, genocidal and even kills those who fail him, not once, but several times. In the final minutes in the last battle between Luke and Darth Vadar, Darth realizes his mistake and turns on his own evil master and kills him to save Luke. Luke then tries to save him. Sounds nice.
"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward."
- Stannis Baratheon
Can we all just agree that Obi-wan Kenobi and Darth Vader are awesome characters and move on?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
The original trilogy are awesome movies . The prequels suck.
The Emperor Palpatine would be the ~Hitler. Darth is the ~Himmler.
Emperor Palpatine was the good guy.
I fucking hated all those stupid scene transitions in Star Wars.
And here, because sometimes you just want to watch the world burn:
[youtube:2a5t8vl1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usXca7W_jvM[/youtube:2a5t8vl1]
Quote from: "leo"The original trilogy are awesome movies . The prequels suck.
What prequels? There are only 3 Star Wars movies.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Can we all just agree that Obi-wan Kenobi and Darth Vader are awesome characters and move on?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
In what context? Oedipus of the ancient Greek play, starts out sympathetic. Targeted as a baby of his rivals. Parents abandon him in order to save him. He is adopted by another family. But grows up to do the same violent things those who went after him as a baby. The fact that he realizes his transgressions at the end doesn't change that he kills his father and has sex with his mother.
The movie makes for great fiction, yes. But it still has horrible memes in it.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "leo"The original trilogy are awesome movies . The prequels suck.
What prequels? There are only 3 Star Wars movies.
The only ones that I liked were the first 3. The rest made me feel like I was playing a fucking X Box.
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"See, now this is why the bible was way ahead of its time. If it had just waited for Hooeywood and all those crazy special effects it would've been a cult classic by now. :-D
The bible is full of very mundane drama and very horrible plot development. If you want some Jerry Springer action, the ancient Greeks were masters.
I think showing characters to be not completely black and white/good and evil to be a good thing. It shows that people can change.
I have noticed that exploring the idea of "villains" doing the wrong things for the right reasons have become more popular (Wicked, Breaking Bad, etc). I think it is an important idea to explore, and actually quite anti-biblical. Usually characters in the bible are pretty one dimensional. Darth Vader is a clear villain to begin with, but slowly you realize he is just a pawn of the emperor, and even the emperor believes his regime will bring peace.
Anyway, redemption is a pretty common theme in stories. I hate that every story that contains any redemptive features automatically gets compared to Christianity. It existed in stories far predating the bible, and assuming we don't kill ourselves off, it will continue to exist long after Christianity is but another ancient dead religion.
Quote from: "Aroura33"I think showing characters to be not completely black and white/good and evil to be a good thing. It shows that people can change.
I have noticed that exploring the idea of "villains" doing the wrong things for the right reasons have become more popular (Wicked, Breaking Bad, etc). I think it is an important idea to explore, and actually quite anti-biblical. Usually characters in the bible are pretty one dimensional. Darth Vader is a clear villain to begin with, but slowly you realize he is just a pawn of the emperor, and even the emperor believes his regime will bring peace.
Anyway, redemption is a pretty common theme in stories. I hate that every story that contains any redemptive features automatically gets compared to Christianity. It existed in stories far predating the bible, and assuming we don't kill ourselves off, it will continue to exist long after Christianity is but another ancient dead religion.
I guess I am not as kind as you. I do not think you can avoid the transgressions of the OT or "end times" god anymore than you can or should forgive Darth Vader.
Again, there is a huge difference between forgiving a society suckered by the appeal of being sold a utopia, and forgiving the monster who sells it to them.
Darth Vader was corrupted by madness.
When Darth Vader dies, and his life force is returned to the force, Darth Vader ceases to exist and you now have Anakin Skywalker again. It is shown time and time again how the Dark Side of the Force can wreck the user's body... what is to keep it from also corrupting one's mind?
Luke doesn't smile at DV, he smiles at Anakin. I personally believe that in the lore a person can be corrupted or enhanced by the force; this is why some of the Jedi lived much longer than the average life span of their race while having Buddha-like personalities and the Sith often become very deformed and aged before their time.
Now if we realize that the force can change one's body, then it therefor change one's brain (it being a part of the body) and therefor one's personality. There are time's we seek Vader pause before doing something evil and of course at the end he over-comes this corruption.
I argue that Anakin Skywalker was a prisoner within the monster that was Vader. When the Jedi warn of anger consuming, they don't mean that the person is angry; they mean that the dark side of the force will feed off your fear and anger and magnify it to obscene levels that completely consume you.
So yes, Anakin is partly at fault to blame, but he is also human. He himself, the one who Luke smiles at, is not the monster; rather it is the force itself that created the monster that was Darth Vader. All Anakin needs to be forgiven for is for being a human with feelings.
In closing, this is why stories like this are amazing... they have much deeper philosophical ramifications than just, "He was evil, he was bad. This guy was good, we like him.". The character's are nuanced and their are outside forces acting on them.