Hi guys,
I wanted to know a few more opinions about this: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_04.html (http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_04.html)
I'll explain it since I suggest that you wouldn't read this and the English is very bad, too. :-D
It is about numerical coincidences in the Quran which are supposed to be "miracles".
I'll show two as examples:
1. When the appearance of the letters D-N-A (Dal-Nun-Alif in Arabic) side by side in places in the Qur'an is examined, they appear most frequently in verse 65 of Surat 18. The letters D-N-A appear side by side three times in this verse.
The number of this exceptional verse in which the term DNA appears so strikingly is 18:65. These numbers are an expression of the date when the science of genetics began (with Mendel publishing his famous paper in this year). This is supposed to be a "miracle" because only in verse 18:65 of the Qur'an do the letters "DNA" appear three times consecutively.
2. The first ever satellite, "Sputnik 1," was launched in 1957. Verse 19;57 (Surah Maryam, 57) of the Qur'an amazingly refers to rising and being raised. "We raised him up to a high place. (Surah Maryam, 57)"
There are more of these as you can see in the link, but they are more or less the same. So I would really like to know your thoughts about this! On the one hand, it sounds rather silly to me, but on the other hand I think it might a bit strange that these occurances really happen to be in these numbers of suras and verses and that it woud fit like that, you know what I mean?
Would be glad for any opinions
And best wishes for the new year to everyone!
You really need to try and find some online courses on statistics and pattern recognition :) It'll help you get rid of these things once and for all.
1) The letters DNA are from the english name of our genome system. Why would they appear in the Qu'ran, which is written in arabic and supposed to be 'the perfect language'? Also, the year 1865 is measured in catholic years... again, why would a number of significance in the Qu'ran rely on a dating system created by an opposing church?
2) How many verses in the Qu'ran refer to things being raised up to a high place? There are probably hundreds of them. And again; why are they using a numbering system created by an opposing faith to match these numbers?
I would be far more impressed if the surat stated what DNA is and who would have discovered it and if the other sura said they placed shot a rocket into space.....I mean they didn't really raise him high did they?
This sounds like an even weaker version of the bible code (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code). How often would such a sequence of writing (Dal-Nun-Alif) happen in just an ordinary book in Arabic? I certainly don't know off hand, but I would expect and book of sufficient length (War and Peace or Ulysses) to also contain strange coincidences, just people don't normally bother looking for them in secular works.
Quote from: "Plu"1) The letters DNA are from the english name of our genome system. Why would they appear in the Qu'ran, which is written in arabic and supposed to be 'the perfect language'? Also, the year 1865 is measured in catholic years... again, why would a number of significance in the Qu'ran rely on a dating system created by an opposing church?
2) How many verses in the Qu'ran refer to things being raised up to a high place? There are probably hundreds of them. And again; why are they using a numbering system created by an opposing faith to match these numbers?
That was what I thought, too. I also noticed that in Arabic they read from right to left, so actually it would be "65:18" and "57:19"... Shame, that the miracle only works translated. :lol:
So this is just another example of "the longer you search, the more you find" I hope. Sometimes I really think I am so stupid even to spend time on things like that... But I just can't help it. :-s
For example I found this:
"And Allah hath caused you to grow as a plant from the earth" (71:17)
and
"He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay. Then He continued his reproduction through a certain lowly liquid." (32:7-8)
They proclaim that this refers to the concept of evolution, which couldn't be known to Muhammad. I think that the second is rather stupid because he probably just meant that Adam, the "first human" was created from clay and nothing else. But I don't really know what the first one is supposed to mean.
You can't explain this:
Quote- Lincoln's name has 7 letters
- Kennedy's name has 7 letters
- In Lincoln's & Kennedy's names the vowels & consonants fall in exactly the same place;***
in the order c, v, c, c, v, c, c
- Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846
- Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946
- Lincoln was elected president in 1860
- Kennedy was elected president in 1960
- Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln
- Lincoln had an aide named Kennedy
- War was thrust upon Lincoln almost immediately after inauguration
- War was thrust upon Kennedy almost immediately after inauguration
- Lincoln ordered the Treasury to print its own money
- Kennedy ordered the Treasury to print its own money
- International bankers may have arranged the assassinations of Lincoln and Kennedy
- Lincoln gave negroes freedom and legalized equality
- Kennedy enforced equality for negroes
- Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address on November 19, 1863
- Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963
- Lincoln was loved by the common people and hated by the establishment
- Kennedy was loved by the common people and hated by the establishment
- Lincoln was succeeded, after assassination, by vice-president Johnson
- Kennedy was succeeded, after assassination, by vice-president Johnson
- Andrew Johnson was born in 1808
- Lyndon Johnson was born in 1908
- Andrew Johnson's name has 13 letters
- Lyndon Johnson's name has 13 letters
- Andrew Johnson had a pug nose and slicked-back hair
- Lyndon Johnson had a pug nose and slicked-back hair
- Lincoln was sitting beside his wife when he was shot
- Kennedy was sitting beside his wife when he was shot
- Rathbone, who was with Lincoln when he was shot, was injured (by being stabbed)
- Connally, who was with Kennedy when he was shot, was injured (by being shot)
- Rathbone's name has 8 letters
- Connally's name has 8 letters
- Lincoln's wife held his head in her lap after he was shot
- Kennedy's wife held his head in her lap after he was shot
- Lincoln was shot on a Friday
- Kennedy was shot on a Friday
- Lincoln was shot in a theatre named Ford
- Kennedy was shot in a car made by Ford
- Kennedy was shot in a car named Lincoln
- Lincoln's bodyguard was away from his post at the door of the President's box at the theatre
- Kennedy's bodyguards were away from their posts on the running-boards of the President's car
- Lincoln was shot in a theatre and his assassin ran to a warehouse
- JFK was shot from a warehouse and his alleged assassin ran to a theatre
- Lincoln's assassin had a three-worded name, John Wilkes Booth
- Kennedy's alleged assassin had a three-worded name, Lee Harvey Oswald
- John Wilkes Booth has 15 letters
- Lee Harvey Oswald has 15 letters
- John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839 (s/b 1838)
- Lee Harvey Oswald was born in 1939
- Lincoln didn't die immediately after being shot
- Kennedy didn't die immediately after being shot
- Lincoln and Kennedy died in places beginning with the initials P and H
- Lincoln died in Petersen's house
- Kennedy died in Parkland Hospital
- Booth was shot and killed* in police custody before going to trial
- Oswald was shot and killed in police custody before going to trial
- Kennedy's funeral was modelled on Lincoln's funeral
- Andrew Johnson was a heavy drinker with crude behaviour
- Lyndon Johnson was a heavy drinker with crude behaviour
- There were conspiracy theories that Johnson was knowledgeable about Lincoln's assassination
- There were conspiracy theories that Johnson was knowledgeable about Kennedy's assassination**
- Days before it happened Lincoln told his wife and friends about a dream he'd had of being shot by an assassin
- Hours before it happened Kennedy told his wife and friends it would be easy for an assassin to shoot him from a crowd
- Shortly after Lincoln was shot the telegraph system went down
- Shortly after Kennedy was shot the telephone system went down
- Kennedy's father had been the Ambassador to England at the Court of St James
- Lincoln's son became the Ambassador to England at the Court of St James
- Lincoln and Kennedy were 2 of the greatest presidents of the nation
- Lincoln's wife tastefully and expensively re-decorated the White House
- Kennedy's wife tastefully and expensively re-decorated the White House
- Lincoln loved great literature and could recite poetry by heart
- Kennedy loved great literature and could recite poetry by heart
- Lincoln had young children while living at the White House
- Kennedy had young children while living at the White House
- Lincoln's son had a pony he rode on the White House grounds
- Kennedy's daughter had a pony she rode on the White House grounds
- Lincoln lost a child (12 year old son) to death while President
- Kennedy lost a child (newly born son) to death while President
- Lincoln had 2 sons named Robert and Edward. Edward died young and Robert lived on.
- Kennedy had 2 brothers named Robert and Edward. Robert died young and Edward lived on
- Lincoln let his children run and play in his office
- Kennedy let his children run and play in his office
- After Lincoln's assassination the nation experienced an emotional convulsion
- After Kennedy's assassination the nation experienced an emotional convulsion
- the whole world cried when Lincoln died
- the whole world cried when Kennedy died
- Lincoln's funeral train travelled from Washington-DC to New York
- Kennedy's brother's funeral train travelled from New York to Washington-DC
- Lincoln Assassination conspiracy theories are believed these 140 141 years later
- Kennedy Assassination conspiracy theories are believed these 42 43 years later
- Abraham was the first name of the man who filmed Kennedy's murder in the Lincoln
- The man running alongside Kennedy's car snapping pictures with his 35mm camera was a salesman of Lincoln cars
- Kennedy bought a Virginia home that was the 1861 Civil War headquarters of Lincoln's first general-in-chief, McClellan
- Jefferson Davis was the name of the president of the Confederate states while Lincoln was president of the Union states
- Jefferson Davis Tippit was the name of the police officer killed allegedly by Kennedy's alleged assassin
- Lincoln was famous for his wit and for telling hilarious stories and anecdotes
- Kennedy was famous for his wit and for telling hilarious stories and anecdotes
- Lincoln was sitting in a rocking chair at Ford's Theater when he was shot
- Kennedy had a special rocking chair he sat in at the White House
- Henry Ford bought the rocking chair Lincoln died in and put it in his museum in Dearborn
- Kennedy's seat in the Lincoln he was sitting in when he was shot is in Ford's museum
- Lincoln's seat in the Ford he was sitting in when he was shot is in Ford's museum
- John Kennedy is the name of a character in a 1951 movie about a detective travelling by train
to thwart the assassination of President Lincoln
- John Kennedy is the name of the real-life detective who travelled in the train with President Lincoln in 1860
to thwart his assassination
- In 1863, the Tsar sent the war fleet of the Russian empire to assist President Lincoln during the American civil war
- In 1962, during the Kennedy presidency, a fleet of Russian ships transporting instruments of war
were steaming towards America with less benign intent
- Booth was loyal to the south, whose Confederate president was Jefferson Davis ----------------------NEW
- Officer J.D. Tippit was killed [allegedly] by Oswald 2 blocks south of Davis Street and 1 block north of Jefferson Blvd;
The streets run almost parallel and were named after Jefferson Davis
- The officer's initials "J.D." stand for "Jefferson Davis"
- "Davis" is the last name of the people who lived in the house on the corner of Tenth and Patton ---------NEW
where two empty bullet shells were found in the shrubs after the assassin ran diagonally
across their yard on his way to Jefferson Boulevard
- The handgun Oswald allegedly used to kill Tippit was a .38 Smith & Wesson revolver ---------NEW
- The handgun JFK used to announce his location after shipwreck was a .38 Smith & Wesson revolver
- The barrel of the handgun found on Kennedy's alleged killer was 2 1/4 inches long
- The barrel of the handgun used by Lincoln's killer was 2 1/2 inches long
- There are only two times in USA history that incumbent vice-presidents ran for president and lost: --------NEW
- Incumbent Vice-President Breckinridge lost to Lincoln in the 1860 election
- Incumbent Vice-President Nixon lost to Kennedy in the 1960 election
Hank sends a coincidence about vice-presidents Breckinridge & Nixon
OSWALD HANDGUN SAME JFK .38 REVOLVER (Jackie noticed both revolvers were made by Smith & Wesson)
JEFFERSON DAVIS IN LINCOLN-KENNEDY KILLINGS (Ray sends coincidences about the shooting of policeman J D Tippit)
LINCOLN-KENNEDY & CZAR COINCIDENCES (Erwin sends coincidence about Russian war ships sailing to America during the presidencies of both)
~ Michael found a Lincoln/Kennedy coincidence in the 1951 movie "The Tall Target"
Johnson Lincoln Johnson JFK LINCOLN-KENNEDY JOHNSONS ALIKE (James says Andrew & Lyndon each have pug nose & slicked-back hair)
Ondra sends coincidences about Lincoln's and Kennedy's seat-mates being injured, their wives holding their heads, and both not dying immediately after being shot
LBJ AIR FORCE 2 TO 1 (...Glancing at the bronze box, Mrs. Kennedy began to think of Abraham Lincoln. The buoyant, youthful sophisticated John F. Kennedy became fused in the shadow of death with the wary, cavernous man who had sealed the fractures in the union with the blood of its best boys. He, too, had had his Johnson; he, too, had died on a Friday; he, too, had been sitting with his wife; he, too, had been shot in the back of the head; in death he, too, had turned over the affairs of the nation to a man who was earthy, a vindictive Southerner who was politically alienated from his area.)
Sheila sends coincidence of Robert and Edward being sons and brothers
Marti sends a similarity about the seats JFK & Lincoln were sitting in
Jackie adds the rocking chair coincidence
***Christian says that 'y' is a vowel, not a consonant
Etaoin sends a Lincoln/JFK coincidence about consonants & vowels in their names
Silvia sends a JFK-Lincoln coincidence about the birthdays of Booth and Oswald
LINCOLN DREAMS JFK FUNERAL ('Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers, 'The President,' was his answer; 'he was killed by an assassin.')
LINCOLN, KENNEDY & MONEY (Carmen adds a coincidence to the list)
Rachel sends a coincidence to add to the Lincoln/JFK Coincidences List
Colin sends additions for the Lincoln & Kennedy Coincidences list
Raymond contributes more coincidence additions
Raymond contributes to developing list of strange JFK coincidences
- interesting fact: Lincoln picked Andrew Johnson as his second-term running mate in 1864. Kennedy, had he lived, probably would have picked Lyndon Johnson as his second-term running mate in 1964 (exactly 100 years later). Both Lincoln and JFK were assassinated during the first vice-presidential terms of men named Johnson.
THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS (delivered by President Lincoln on November 19, 1863 almost 100 years to the day before President Kennedy's assassination on November 22, 1963)
*Booth's death is debatable. Some researchers think a red-haired man was shot and buried in his place
**Lincoln's wife Mary wrote to a friend on March 15, 1866, "...that, that miserable inebriate Johnson, had cognizance of my husband's death - Why, was that card of Booth's, found in his box, some acquaintance certainly existed - I have been deeply impressed, with the harrowing thought, that he, had an understanding with the conspirators & they knew their man... As sure, as you & I live, Johnson, had some hand, in all this...")
Solitary
Any large enough work of fiction is going to have coincidences, especially if you bring numerology into the mix. I could write a million pages of random numbers and letters and if you brought numerology into it you would find something.
Oh joy, more nutjobs. We already showed why all of this is silly in this very thread.
I wish you silly religious people would learn some bloody statistics and psychology so we could put this topic to rest. :P
Quote from: "Plu"You really need to try and find some online courses on statistics and pattern recognition :) It'll help you get rid of these things once and for all.
1) The letters DNA are from the english name of our genome system. Why would they appear in the Qu'ran, which is written in arabic and supposed to be 'the perfect language'? Also, the year 1865 is measured in catholic years... again, why would a number of significance in the Qu'ran rely on a dating system created by an opposing church?
2) How many verses in the Qu'ran refer to things being raised up to a high place? There are probably hundreds of them. And again; why are they using a numbering system created by an opposing faith to match these numbers?
See my very first response to this thread.
NTRN... How do you pronounce that? Seems like it would be entrin or un'ta'raen. At the center of the atom, you can find an un'ta'raen. Really? An un'ta'raen? Praise be to Allah.
You only the hit the golden ratio on its first 3 digits, after that it goes wrong. That's not very close. I'm guessing most people, given a pencil and a piece of paper, can calculate it to more digits.
Also the odds of half something being odd and half being even are pretty big, considering that half of the numbers are odd and the other half are even.
Uhm, no they don't. Scientists know the exact number, which is:
(//http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/d/7/7d7d3c6d8c25e438d96384113bf89f38.png)
3 digits is just an approximation which is good enough for most common applications.
Also the ratio has been known since the days of Euclid in 300BC, so it's not like it's some kind of futurustic thing.
And it's not as mysterious as you're trying to make it out to be. That's just religion trying to see things that aren't there. Nature is full of numbers like those. If you want to understand their meaning, you should math, not religion.
The words "Quran" and "science" have no business being in the same sentence unless that sentence says, "The Quran has jack shit to do with science." But then, that doesn't really make the Quran different from any other holy book.
Quote from: "ciko"no you have not, show me please why this is silly?
Did you not see Solitary's post?
Quote from: "ciko"you cant ignore that consonant letters of neutron(NTRN) appear on in one place out of 6236 verses in the quran in correct position, wich corespond to its wieght ratio, neutron is 1,839 times heavier than an electron and letters are exactly in 18:39
is this coincidence? i dont think, i if you say that it is coincidience, then it mean that chance of something happen by chance is 1/6236=0,00016%
It's 1838.6836605 (//http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?mnsme); Looks like Allah got it wrong. Unless you're allowed to kinda fudge the numbers to sort of make them fit. Is that allowed?
Edit: Edited to show my source.
Someone must have written a book recently pointing out coincidences in the Quran. This has become a recent hot topic. But this numerology nonsense is not a new thing. People been doing this shit for years. Hell, as the Science Channel on cable degraded, it started investigating things like "Noah's Ark: Fact or Fiction?" No answers given. Just a bunch of nonsense to mystify the mentally challenged.
Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick! (//http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html) there is no god but Melville and Ishmael is his prophet
Quote from: "ciko"the reason why it is recent topic beacuse poeple could not find those nummerical miracles without computer, with quran search programs it is easy to find them.
telll me that this is coincidence
Start at the beginning of the first sentence.
Count 48 letters and then add one.
That brings you to "f" in find.
Count the number of letters from the "f" until you come to an "a".
Count the number of letters from the "a" until you come to an "r".
Count the letters from there until you get to a "t".
Total the number of letters and divide by 6.
Put the 4 letters together and it spells fart.
Spell it backwards. It doesn't spell anything and there's nothing left of the fart.
But if you spell traf backwards, you get another fart.
Tell me that's a coincidence.
Solitary :shock: #-o It's truly amazing how the human mind can rationalize and see patterns in the dumbest things. Why is the Kennedy coincidences just ignored which are more like a miracle than any religious coincidences? I guess it takes faith to do that. I bet if you take the time to go through everything Shakespeare wrote you could find more miracles. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, to the last syllable of recorded time (proof there will be tape recorders). And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. (Allah is the light) Out! out! brief candle. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his time on stage. (A ghost that leaves his body when death comes.) It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound an fury signifying nothing. (Allah is a big scary stupid loud mouth that doesn't exist, and nothing to fear.) :P :roll: :rolleyes:
Quote from: "ciko"1) The letters DNA are from the english name of our genome system. Why would they appear in the Qu'ran, which is written in arabic and supposed to be 'the perfect language'? Also, the year 1865 is measured in catholic years... again, why would a number of significance in the Qu'ran rely on a dating system created by an opposing church?
Mendel was spoke German so he was studying inheritance in DNS not DNA. It would be a lot more impressive if the Qu'ran had 1953 instead of 1865, the year Watson and Crick published their paper the the structure of DNA. Mendel had no idea he was observing anything to do with deoxyribonucleic acid, just making observations on inherited traits.
Quote from: "ciko"you make fun of yourself...
You make Islam into a joke.
I'll just leave this here.
QuoteGod created a man first, then a woman from the man, and all humans descended from them.. 4:1
The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31
Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) But, in fact, such acts are common in many other species. 7:80-81
Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124
When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143
Humans created from a single man. 7:189
"They fold up their breasts that they may hide (their thoughts) from Him."
Allah thinks (in his heart) that humans have their brains in their breasts. 11:5
Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4
"The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2
"He ... spread out the earth."
Sounds like a flat earth to me. 13:3
"And the earth have We spread out."
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 15:19
"And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying ... eat of all fruits."
Allah told bees to eat from all fruits, but decided to eat nectar and pollen instead. 16:68-68
The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. 18:86, 90
Most scholars consider Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") to be Alexander the Great, who is here presented as a devout Muslim. 18:83-98
The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71
The sun "floats" in an orbit around the earth. 21:33
The heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them."
The sun, stars, and earth were joined together until Allah separated them (about six thousand years ago). 21:30
Fear your Lord. Lo! the earthquake of the Hour (of Doom)."
Earquakes are sent by Allah to terrorize and kill people. 22:1
"O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you."
Oh thanks, Allah. That clears everything up! 22:5
Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45
"He sendeth down from the heaven mountains wherein is hail."
Hail comes from mountains. 24:43
The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61
"He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun orbits the earth. 35:13
"The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38
"For the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf." 36:38
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40
Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142
"We decked the nether heaven with lamps."
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12
"And the earth have We spread out."
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 50:7
"And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!"
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 51:48
All things We have created by pairs." This is not true. Many bacteria, protists, fungi, and plants reproduce asexually. 51:49
"The moon was rent in twain."
Muhammaed split the moon into two pieces. Beat that one, Jesus! 54:1-2
"Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof."
The "seven heavens" refer to the sun, moon, and five planets that were known at the time of Muhammad (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn). The earth was flat and the "seven "heavens" revolved around it. 65:12
"Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3
Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5
At the end of the world the earth with the mountains will be lifted up and crushed with one crash. 69:14
"And hath made the moon a light"
This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16
"Have We not made the earth an expanse, And the high hills bulwarks?"
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 78:6-7
"He spread the earth."
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 79:30
Someday the stars will fall. 81:2
"He is created from a gushing fluid that issued from between the loins and ribs."
Semen, according to the Quran, is formed not in the testicles, but somewhere "between the loins and ribs." 86:5-7
"He is created from a gushing fluid."
Humans are not created from semen, but from fertilized eggs. 86:6
"And the earth, how it is spread ?"
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 88:20
The sun ... and the moon when she followeth him."
The moon orbits the earth; it doesn't "follow the sun." 91:1-2
"The earth and Him Who spread it."
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 91:6
Thy Lord ... createth man from a clot."
Humans were created from a clot? 96:1-2
If he denieth (Allah's guidance) ... We will seize him by the forelock - The lying, sinful forelock."
Some Muslims say that when Allah talks about the "forelock" here, he is acutally referring to the prefrontal cortex, which, as modern science has recently found out, is the place where all that lying and sinful stuff happens. It's just one of the many scientific miracles in the Quran. 96:13-16
"When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake"
At the end of the world, Allah will cause a massive earthquake and then send everyone to heaven or hell. 99:1
Allah dealt with the owners of the elephant by sending swarms of "flying creatures". 105:1-3
I apologize for the formatting, my iPad doesn't copy lists very gracefully.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "ciko"no you have not, show me please why this is silly?
Did you not see Solitary's post?
Quote from: "ciko"you cant ignore that consonant letters of neutron(NTRN) appear on in one place out of 6236 verses in the quran in correct position, wich corespond to its wieght ratio, neutron is 1,839 times heavier than an electron and letters are exactly in 18:39
is this coincidence? i dont think, i if you say that it is coincidience, then it mean that chance of something happen by chance is 1/6236=0,00016%
It's 1838.6836605 (//http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?mnsme); Looks like Allah got it wrong. Unless you're allowed to kinda fudge the numbers to sort of make them fit. Is that allowed?
Edit: Edited to show my source.
everybody write it as 1839 beacuse of big decimal 8.68 is 9 , did you not learned this in school?
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... utron+mass (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Neutron+mass)
n electrically neutral subatomic particle in the baryon family, having a mass 1,839 times
http://www.windows2universe.org/physica ... .2009_7_15 (http://www.windows2universe.org/physical_science/physics/atom_particle/neutron.html.backup.2009_7_15)
he mass of a neutron is about 1,839 times that of an electron!
1838.6836605 ? 18:39
It's a completely different number.
Quote from: "ciko"many site beging with the year 1865 when it comes to begining of science of genetics.
i think that you only make exuses to reject these obvious miracles in front of your eyes
if yo udont want to believe obvious stuff wich are clear, what can i say, then dont believe it. even if DNA was mentioned in verse 1953 instaed of 1865, then you would claim,no why is it not mentioned at year 1865 , verse 18:65. that is the nature of atheists, constant denial even though they see clear evidence.
You do know that Genetics encompasses more than just DNA right? DNA gives us the genotype but most geneticists are interested in how different polymorphisms translate into observable changes in the cell and organism. I don't expect you to understand this, if you actually understood genetics as a field of study you would see that the connection you're trying to make is incredibly weak.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Jason78"1838.6836605 ? 18:39
It's a completely different number.
why do they write it as 1,839 then???
Because it's accurate enough for simple minds and simple calculations. It's not impressive until you get to a few thousand digits, or you know, until you list the actual calculation which had been known hundreds of years before the Quran was written in case of the golden ratio.
The odds of being able to count some things and come to a simple number are pretty fucking high when you use a book, which contains loads of text and an almost infinite number of possible connections.
Like I said; take a course on statistics and psychology. You can thank me later.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Poison Tree"Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick! (//http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html) there is no god but Melville and Ishmael is his prophet
there is no programming in moby dick i have discussed with many atheists about moby dick so far nobody has ever proved me programming in that book.
if you want to debunk my examples, then you need to study them and destroy them it from the scinetific point of view, not bring me moby dick wich is actually no challange towards quran.
beacuse if you post stuff wich you have not analysed maybe you will be embarassed later just beacuse there is no programming. before you post to me anything reaserch first analysed and them post it to me.
there is no programming in quran i have discussed with many muslims about quran so far nobody has ever proved me programming in that book.
if you want to debunk my examples, then you need to study them and destroy them it from the scinetific point of view, not bring me quran wich is actually no challange towards moby dick.
Boy, that was easy.
Quote from: "ciko"3.Adam-Jesus 25 times (beacuse God said in the verse that these two are equal in the sight of God)
I came up with "Jesus" 28 times
Quote from: "ciko"4. Name of satan-seek refuge (from satan) 11 times
"Satan" 55 times, not counting "Satan's" or "Satanic". Maybe you wanted "Shaitan" (77 times) or "Iblis " (31 times)
"seek refuge" 12 times
Quote from: "ciko"7. heat-coolness 4 times
"heat" 5 times (not counting heated 1 additional time), "coolness" only once
Quote from: "ciko"12. month mentioned 12 times, same as it is in one years
"month" 4 times, "months" 16 times, "monthly" 4 times
Oh, don't tell me, I must be using the wrong translation. Or need to use examples of the word in brackets sometimes, or not others, or ignore these books, or stand on my head. Maybe I need a special decoder ring found in boxes of participating general mills cereal?
I once took a math course where the teacher jokingly proved that every natural number is interesting. He went something like this:
Let S be the set of natural numbers that are not interesting. If the set is empty, then every natural number is interesting. If the set is not empty, then we can apply the axiom of choice onto S: specifically that there is a least element in S; call it n. n itself is pretty interesting as it's the smallest natural number in S. n is therefore not an element of S. QED. Obviously it's not a proof since the word interesting isn't defined explicitly.
Given a book with thousands of words, thousands of interesting numbers and acronyms, and thousands of ways to formulate numbers using permutations and other mathematical tools, and given that our brains are pattern recognition "engines", then yes, every retarded numerology "proof" of anything, Quran related or not, is nothing but evidence that the people who repeat such proofs are either simple minded or tricksters who dress up their snake oil with "math".
Now I remember a few years ago when a lunatic Muslim came here and told us about how the number 23 appears everywhere in the holey Quran. The number 23 is special because it's the number of chromosomes in a human cell, or something. There's a date for every discovery, a list of 3 letter acronyms in every discipline, and thousands of operators like addition, multiplication, exponential, cos, tan, etc. to work out an association between a set of words or phrases and the special numbers or acronyms. As SalsaShark told our Muslim of the month back then: I always find it amazing how bad at math these numerologists can be (paraphrasing).
Quotewhat is the chance that you get only 3 DNA in one verse in the quran out of 6236 verse and it is exactly 18:65---year 1865
or that neutron (NTRN) is only in verse 18:39 out of 6236 verses and neutron is 1,839 times heavier than eletron
or that venus is mentioned 3 times, from first to second there is 243 verses and we know today that it takes 243 days for venus to rotate around its own axis, and last time venus was mentioned was in verse 17:7 and we know today that venus has 177 degrees inclination.
These questions are not permissable in a statistics context. Like I said; take a course on statistics. The only relevant statistical question to ask is "how many of these so called miracles exist in the Quran versus how many total contextual combinations can you make" And the answer is "a handful of miracles versus billions of contextual combinations", which means that statistically speaking, it is meaningless.
It's kinda like saying that it's a miracle if you find three specks of gold dust in thousand of cubic meters of dirt. Of course you'll find specks of gold dust in that much dirt. It only seems special because you're ignoring just how much dirt you had to scoop through to find those specks. None of your "scholars" will ever tell you about the billions of word counts that add up to nothing meaningful, or the number of years that don't match anything relevant, or the number of attempts they made before they found something that resembled the golden ratio up to three digits. They've been scooping dirt for centuries to find a handful of "miracles".
But I can guaruantuee you, if you give a mathematician a computer and a sheet with a thousand numbers, he will find a way to add, substract, divide and multiply those numbers to get within 3 digits of any number you want. Now imagine giving thousands of islamic scholars thousands of computers and a book with not thousands, but millions of numbers
and the freedom to make up more numbers in whatever way they want, and suddenly finding the golden ratio isn't so exciting anymore.
Like I said; it's not statistically pemissable. The odds of anything are irrelevant outside of their context, and you're doing your very best to keep them outside of their context.
This is why they should teach all kids basic statistics and psychology in school. It guards them somewhat against being fucked over by people with more mathematical knowledge and less morals.
You keep repeating the same thing, even though I have already pointed out why no amount of miracles means anything until you compare them to the number of combinations have to be made to find them. You really need that introduction course in statistics.
Seriously. If your first response to "I just rolled a 6 on 10 dice at the same time! It's a miracle!" isn't "How often did you roll?", you really aren't allowed to talk about statistics.
Not that Islam is geared towards the bright an gifted to begin with, but this guy doesn't help the Muslim image. He makes it sound like the mystery and woo of 4 year olds. There is no mystery, and there is no woo. All that is required to build a magical kingdom of fantasy is a little ignorance and a shit load of gullibility. There is no magic in the Quran. It's just a book made out of ink and paper. Simple minds are impressed by silly things. I don't think other Muslims are as piss ignorant as this simpleton. I don't want to believe they are. But this guy isn't helping at all.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Jason78"1838.6836605 ? 18:39
It's a completely different number.
why do they write it as 1,839 then???
That's an approximation. Not the actual number.
Quote from: "ciko"bro, how would you put Neutron if you would programm it in a book
I'd put in a detailed list of the equipment and method that you would need in order to measure both the electron and neutron, along with the expected outcome of the results. Mind you, if I was a perfect all knowing god, I'd put in the exact right answer. Because I'd know the answer and I wouldn't have to fudge it.
Quote from: "ciko", would you put it in a verse 18:39 or 18:38 since it is 1838.6836605 you round it off to 1839 since you have big decimals, i learned this in school and even in university. you never write 1838.68 as 1838 beacuse decimal are above 0.5
if it would be 1838.5, then you write it as 1838.5,
if you have 1838.1 then yo ucan write it as 1838, since decimal are small.
that is why it is ok that word neutron should be at verse 18:39 to correspond to its ratio 1,839
to deny this, you are liying to yourself people, if you are not honest to me be honest to yourself.
Then why not round it up to a nice even 2000? 2000 is a nice round number. You seem to be making up the rules about what you can do to the numbers that you find in that book as you go along. You don't invoke rounding with any of the other numbers.
Quote from: "ciko"i can accept that you dont believe in God, and reject that it comes from God, but dont reject obvious stuff, beacuse this would make you only ridicolous.
You're the one claiming that your god put this knowledge in the Koran. You are the one ridiculing Islam by saying that your perfect god had to put in an approximation.
Quote from: "ciko"yes i know, but be honest to yourself if you are not honest to me
what is the chance that you get only 3 DNA in one verse in the quran out of 6236 verse and it is exactly 18:65---year 1865
or that neutron (NTRN) is only in verse 18:39 out of 6236 verses and neutron is 1,839 times heavier than eletron
or that venus is mentioned 3 times, from first to second there is 243 verses and we know today that it takes 243 days for venus to rotate around its own axis, and last time venus was mentioned was in verse 17:7 and we know today that venus has 177 degrees inclination.
these are facts not specullations. clear proof for you that this book is from God and not from humans , beacuse it came as revelation in 6th century, nobody could know these stuff, but God knew and he programed it in the quran to be evidence that it is his book. to deny these facts you only lie to yourself bro.
do you really think i would post these stuff to you atheists here if i have not studied this carefully so i dont embarass myself and dont give you intelectual stick to beat me with.
So if I don't accept what you're saying I'm not being honest? Someone thinks
very highly of his opinion. I guess religion doesn't teach you humility. There is a very high chance of you finding connections if you're specifically looking for them, just look at some of the examples already given to you in this thread (I already mentioned 1953 would be more impressive but even that wouldn't give proof to god). You've clearly read some very biased websites looking for reasons to justify your faith (I guess it's not very strong). I'm sorry you feel like you aren't embarrassing yourself, that will come with time.
Quote from: "ciko"if i present you something testable wich you can verify with your own hands, and you dont want to do it, then you are not honest definetely.
You've misunderstood me. I believe that DNA is in the Qur'an where you say it is, I just don't see that as anything but a coincidence.
Quote from: "ciko"there is too many connections in quran that it would be by chance
what is the chance that this occurs in a book by chance
Please show you're statistical calculations that shows the connection are more than just chance. You said there are too many for it to be chance, so you must have already done the calculation.
Quote from: "ciko"what is the chance that you pick up the book in bookstore and you count word singular word in simple form "Day" to be 365 times troughout the book, and singular word month to be 12 times, just like in a year?
is this not simple proof of programming a book nummerically.
or that you pick up book and see that
devils mentioned 88 times
angels mentioned 88 times
this world mentioned 115 times
next world mentioned 115 times
man 25 times
woman 25 times
heat 4 times
coolness 4 times
near 10 times
away 10 times
smart people 16 times
dumb people 16 times
root word prophet used 513 times
all names of prophets (adam, noah, abraham, moses, jesus, muhamed...) also 513 times
say 332 times
they say 332 times
Judgment day 70 times
That day (meaning judgment day) 70 times also
and much much more
is all of this coincidence or smart mathematical programming, i dont ask yo uwho did this, all i ask you is this mathematical programming of the book?
yes or no?
If I'm looking for connections, the chance is very very high that I will find them.
Quote from: "ciko"so far i have not be embrassed yet, will see if i am going to be in future, and i put this challenge for you if you can create such quran then you will embrass me and i would admitt that, so if you can do it then why not all others.
It will be quite embarrassing if you can't provide the statistical calculation I asked for.
so...what does this prove exactly? you've found a bunch of words repeated a number of times in an old book? Is this just to prove to us that you can count?
Monkeys who throw their shit at people don't feel embarrassed about it either...
QuoteI am asking you what is the accomplishment of Islam that changed the lives of people for the better? And if ther eis really some why other cultures didn't adopt it?
Islam was a dominant force in science and medicine throughout most of the middle ages (mathematics especially, hence why we call our numbers "arab numerals") though their science and technology declined around the same time european science started gathering steam. However, in the past 100 years or so, Islam hasn't exactly been at the forefront of scientific knowledge...
I find it terrifying that a wave of nationalism and fundamentalism can completely destroy a people's scientific progress, usually only in a few generations.
Quote from: "ciko"1/6236= 0,00016%
not even close to 1%
and let us ad consonant letters of word Neutron (NTRN) in verse 18:39, only once, it is mentioned in the quran, out of 6236 verses
1/6236= 0,00016% also not even close to 1%
are you happy now?
That's not how you calculate probability, how embarrassing. http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/ (http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/)
The funny thing is that the end of "the golden age of Islam" coincides perfectly with, of all things... the rise of stricter Islam.
And, again, I believe all of your claims that numbers are there. They remain meaningless unless we have the total number of connections made. The fact that you refuse to react to this means you don't care about the truth, you just want to peddle the nonsense people peddled to you when you were still a gullible kid to others. You have no idea how the world works, and you refuse to let yourself be bothered by it. That saddens me.
I'll give you half a cookie if you can point to one instance where someone made the calculations in the Quran and discovered something science didn't already know.
Quote from: "ciko"DNA was mentioned 3 times only, do you understand this word "ONLY" in verse 18:65 and science of genetics(DNA) began year 1865, dont say 1953, when site clearly point towards year 1865.
what is the chance to that it is coincidence that you have one possibility and you put it on correct position out of 6236(so many verses in quran)
1/6236= 0,00016%
not even close to 1%
and let us ad consonant letters of word Neutron (NTRN) in verse 18:39, only once, it is mentioned in the quran, out of 6236 verses
1/6236= 0,00016% also not even close to 1%
are you happy now?
oh hey, I was studying your post and I found something interesting:
you use the letter M 4 times in your post. Now 4 is the number of horsemen in the christian apocalypse and as islam is greater than christianity, therefore 5 > 4
but wait, there are even more amazing numbers! Christianity contains 6 letters and Islam 5. 5 + 6 = 11 and if we times that by 33 we get the date of the council of nicea! (333 ad, not 325 as you might expect) anyway, the council was convened by Constantine the great, and if you add up the letters of his name you get 309, the exact same date of the council of nicea!
and if we take it that this is a special code, we should obviously divide it by 3, which gives us 103
I took the liberty of translating this back into english and it spelt out this word:
BULLSHIT!
Nono, you got it wrong. I asked about a situation where they presented the solution of the code (ie; the article you post) before science discovered something (ie; the actual discovery made in the 19th century)
That is; if something was discovered by science in 2000, I want you to point me to a source where someone cracked the Quran code before 2000 (and thus before science figured it out)
If you can find me one example of that, I'll concede that there's miracles in the Quran.
Quote from: "ciko"DNA was mentioned 3 times only, do you understand this word "ONLY" in verse 18:65 and science of genetics(DNA) began year 1865, dont say 1953, when site clearly point towards year 1865.
what is the chance to that it is coincidence that you have one possibility and you put it on correct position out of 6236(so many verses in quran)
1/6236= 0,00016%
not even close to 1%
and let us ad consonant letters of word Neutron (NTRN) in verse 18:39, only once, it is mentioned in the quran, out of 6236 verses
1/6236= 0,00016% also not even close to 1%
are you happy now?
Deoxyribonucleic acid wasn't mentioned at all.
And why aren't there any vowels in NTRN. For all you know it could mean Nitrogen. After all 18 multiplied by 39 gives 702 which just happens to be half the ionisation energy of Nitrogen. And nitrogen has half as many vowels as consonants, which explains why you need to double the 702.
Numbers are fun.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Plu"I'll give you half a cookie if you can point to one instance where someone made the calculations in the Quran and discovered something science didn't already know.
i can put you many examples
lets take only these two astronomical scientific stuff
EXPANDING UNIVERSE
47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47
expansion of universe was discovered in 19 century.
[ Image (//http://oi46.tinypic.com/24mxstu.jpg) ]
here yo ucan hear how pulsars knock
[youtube:32xg7o0j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb0P6x_xDEU[/youtube:32xg7o0j]
and here is latest one wich you probably have heard
5:2 fasting method, it was actually from Muhammed not from our mdoern scientists
http://www.onislam.net/english/health-a ... _Sciences= (http://www.onislam.net/english/health-and-science/faith-and-the-sciences/461972-intermittent-fasting-clarifying-facts-from-fad.html?the_Sciences=)
our mother Hafsa relates: "The Prophet used to fast Mondays and Thursdays".
5:2 method from prophet
and science tells us
The 5:2 diet: can it help you lose weight and live longer?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/94 ... onger.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9480451/The-52-diet-can-it-help-you-lose-weight-and-live-longer.html)
wow. Your evidence has gone from hijacking scientific ideas (where you get
all the dates wrong btw) to fad diets. You are truly a credit to your religion.
Since I'm kinda bored. If I take a random string of 60 letters. Then I can measure the occurance of each letter. That gives me 26 numbers. I can measure the distance between two occurances of the same letter. That gives me an additional 26 numbers (with maybe some zeroes, but that's ok). So now I have 52 numbers, half being in the 0 to 5 area, and the other half being in the 1 to 30 area. Now, if I combine any two of these numbers using one of 4 simple operators (+, -, /, *) I get 52*51*4 = 10608 datapoints. This is just the number of datapoints from statements like "if you take the distance between two occurences of the letter A and add the number of occurances of the letter X".
For the hell of it, lets add in the number of each letter in the series as well. That's an extra 60 datapoints. And for fun, lets make it not 1 calculation, but 2. Now we've got 112*4*112*4*112 = 22,478,848 possible points of data.
Okay. Last step. Let us take, from that set, two datapoints and divide them together. That gives us a dataset of 505,298,607,407,104 points (that's 500 trillion points of data), which are all in the form of A / B. Want to bet at least one of those reaches the golden ratio within 3 digits? I'm pretty sure pi to 3 digits, sqrt(2) to 3 digits and e to 3 digits are also in there. (In fact, considering the vast amount of datapoints, you can probably find all numbers of the form x.xxx in there, since there's only 10,000 of them; this dataset is 5 billion times larger than that.)
I'll leave the math on what happens when instead of 60 letters you decide to use the whole of the Quran as input. Suffice to say that I don't think my calculator goes that high. I have no doubts you can find a few "miracles" in there.
And these are nothing complicated. All these 500 trillion statements are in the form of "count the distance between the letters A, add to it the number of times the number C occurs and then divide that by the number of occurences of the letter D times the position of the only X". Comparable complexity to your Quran claims. 500 trillion data points. And my input looks like this: "sdlfghjilkudfhglsiudhdkiurfthgdjfsgdliukgthiutglksdfludfghfd". Yours is 77,934 words. If you want, you can do the above simple calculation using 77,934 as the initial input instead of 112. But I think it'll cap out your calculator at step 3 or so.
Oh hey, they updated windows calculator. Using the input of just the word count (I'm not even applying basic calculations like distance to them, only using the their number in the text) I already manage to get 57,359,026,045,728,269,454,942,305,796,096 datapoints. Just by adding, substracting, multiplying and dividing the order-number of the words a few times.
I had to look it up, but this number is called "57 Nonillion". The only way I can even begin to visualise this is by saying that if you were to write out all these numbers, you would create a data collection over 200 billion times larger than the entire internet. (The internet being estimated to be around 1.2 Zetabytes, and assuming 4 bytes for storing a number, which means you'll only get a few places after the comma. If you want more decimal places, it'll only go up.)
Fuck yeah, math.
Quote from: "ciko"QuoteDeoxyribonucleic acid wasn't mentioned at all.
you people just think totally wrong, just like there is 0% logic inside you
no Deoxyribonucleic acid, but DNA has.
So for all you know your god could have been warning you about the Detroit News Agency.
Quote from: "ciko"and those DNA letters were programmed into real words of arabic
let me give you example how God programmed double information. let say that this is a verse
verse 18:65 Beautiful girl Adna walked in the street and saw a man, Adna was courious about this man, and all this happen in the city of Balidna
we see here only 3 times DNA in one verse out of 6236 verses, as you all can see it is double information, about Adna and programmed letters DNA 3 times only at this place, like info from past and future.
All you've done there is pick the letters dna out of words that just happen to have those letters in consecutively. You could probably do that with any three letter acronym you like. 5 seconds with the grep tool is not a miracle.
Quote from: "ciko"QuoteAnd nitrogen has half as many vowels as consonants
no, what suport it that it is neutron is the position, 18:39 correspond to its ratio towards electron, that is why we can believe that it is neutron.
Who gets to set that rule then?
Quote from: "ciko"if it was not placed at 18:39 then it would mean nothing, and would not be a miracle.
It already means nothing at 18:39. The link that you've provided between verse 18:39 of the Koran and the subatomic particle we know as the neutron is so tenuous that it might as well not exist.
You seem to have conviently skipped the post that showed you just how many contextual relations there are versus the few that mean some. I would think you'd have some kind of comment on the fact that you could fill billions of internets with just the basic data of manipulating the order numbers of the words in the Quran. You'd think that, for someone interested in the truth, that would be sort of relevant to know.
How can you claim your numbers mean anything when you don't even understand something as simple as combinations? They taught me how to do this when I was like 14. It's basic math. You're wielding an argument that is far too complicated for you if my post goes over your head.
Ciko, are you still in grade school or something? Or don't they teach you mathematics where you live? You're from Sweden, you're supposed to have excellent school systems there, yet here you are apparently not only being stumped by simple mathematics but also acting like other people should be stumped as well (I'll eat my hat if any of the atheists here find my post too complicated to follow if they take 2 minutes to think about it) even though this should be a trivial thing to follow.
That scares me. You should really go back to school and learn what numbers mean before you start copying arguments about how numbers prove your god.
Yeah that's coincidence. If you spend as much time sifting through other old books as people have spent sifting through the Quran, you will find exactly the same number of coincidences. Like I just explained to you; you can fill billions of internets with the various recombinations of data of any random book, and if you spend enough time going over the results you will find coincidences eventually.
There are two reasons why you think the Quran is special in this regard:
A) It (well, and other holy books, but you don't read those) are the only books where people are crazy enough to spend this much time actually looking for those coincidences
B) When people do this with any other book, you immediately think it's a joke, because both your starting point and your ending point are "the Quran is special", making your entire argument circular.
People do this stuff for shits and giggles with all sorts of books, and the outcome is always the same.
Here look, someone did it with Harry Potter:
http://goodtimz.blogspot.nl/2010/11/har ... ences.html (http://goodtimz.blogspot.nl/2010/11/harry-potter-and-number-7-coincidences.html)
If you go looking for coincidences, you will find them. If you look long enough, you will find a lot. And if you don't tell anyone that you had to roll the dice a million times, they'll think that getting all 6s on 10 dice is really special. But it's not. It's just coincidences found by pouring over random data for long enough.
And I'm not exaggarating when I say you can fill a billion internets with this data. I did the math. But you found it "too complicated". If you want the world to be simple, definately stick with religion, but don't act all surprised when you can't figure out how stuff works when you grow up, because the world isn't simple. It's bloody complicated.
And if you're not going to believe us until we spend thousands and thousands or hours going through the Odyssey to look for coincidences, you can continue to not believe us. Because that's how much time is spent "finding" these "miracles", and we have actually useful stuff to do. Like, you know, the actual research that these guys "find" in the Quran, which is a lot harder than adding some numbers and counting some words.
Quote from: "ciko"47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47
That is only one translation. Here is another:
51:47 We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Implying nothing more than what is said: those who made heaven also reside within it.
But let's assume for a moment that your translation is the correct interpretation: Why is it that no scholar ever used this to discover the red shift in the light of the other galaxies to determine that the universe is indeed expanding before Edwin Hubble discovered it himself?
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "ciko"47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47
That is only one translation. Here is another:
51:47 We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Implying nothing more than what is said: those who made heaven also reside within it.
But let's assume for a moment that your translation is the correct interpretation: Why is it that no scholar ever used this to discover the red shift in the light of the other galaxies to determine that the universe is indeed expanding before Edwin Hubble discovered it himself?
that is not correct translation
old translation of quran
Has a single muslim before 1920 translated it as expanding ?
Yes of course ...
the meaning according to some old Quranic tafsir (the following is the arabic quotes are translated into English):
1- Tafsir muqatel ibn solaiman (year AD 767)
means: we are able to expand it as we want.
????? ????? ?? ??????/ ????? ?? ?????? (? 150 ??
{ ???????? ???????????? } [???: 47] ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????
2- Tafsir Bahr alolum , (year 985)
means: we are able to expand it as we will.
(???? ??? ??????/ ?????????
{ ???????? ???????????? } ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????
3- Tafsir alfayruz abadi (year 1414)
means : we we are expanding it as we will.
{ ???????? ???????????? } ??? ?? ????
????? ??????/ ??????? ????? (?817
4- Tafsir Alnukat waloyon (year 1058)
means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.
????? ????? ???????/ ???????? (? 450 ?)
??????: ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ???.
??????: ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????.
5 - Tafsir Alqasemy : (year 1913 )
means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.
????? ????? ??????? / ???? ???? ????? ??????? (? 1332??
{ ???????? ???????????? } ??: ??????? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ??????
6- Tafsir Altabarani (year 970)
means :we expand the heaven in every direction.
????? ??????? ?????? / ?????? ???????? (? 360 ?)
{ ???????? ???????????? }? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????
if you dont believe that quranic word ?????? means expansion, then copy it and paste it in google translate
http://translate.google.com/?hl=sv#ar/e ... 9%88%D9%86 (http://translate.google.com/?hl=sv#ar/en/%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B9%D9%88%D9%86)
and this is what i got
????-adjektiv
expanded
????, ????, ?????, ?????
widened
????
developed
?????, ????, ????, ???? ???????
The translation is beside the point, Ciko, as you would have understood had you read the full post. Since you seem to have missed the core question, allow me to repeat it:
Why is it that no scholar ever used this to discover the red shift in the light of the other galaxies to determine that the universe is indeed expanding before Edwin Hubble discovered it himself?
Quoteand there is a lot more, but you say that this is just coincidence
Taking my low-ball guess of 57 ontillion data points, and assuming that in addition to the "miracles" you listed there exist a thousand more, you have shown that 1,7543859649122807017543859649123e-27% of the connection in the Quran are meaningful.
For the record, that means 0,0000000000000000000000000001754%. In the realm of statistical significance, it's reasonable to assume coincidence.
(For the record, this means it's vastly more likely that if you obtain 3 tickets for 3 different lotteries, you win the jackpot on each, than it is for a specific datapoint in the Quran to mean something. With the odds of winning 3 jackpots at the same time still being in the "1 in a Septillion" range, whereas the odds of a datapoint in the Quran meaning something being in the Octillion range.)
And that's still low-balling how many data points you can collect if you really start to strain it. Of course these numbers don't make sense to you, since you can't even see the difference between the golden ratio and it's 3 digit approximation, but still. If you think the things you find in the Quran aren't coincidences, buy some lottery tickets. You'll be a millionaire in no time.
Did you know DNA happens 4 times in Moby Dick? Page 33, chapter3; Page 343, chapter 73; page 343, chapter 73; page 510, chapter 114. Add up those 8 numbers and you get 1492--the year Columbus discovered America--what are the chances of that. DNA occurs only 4 times and the numbers add up to 1492. But, wait, there's more. James Watson, who co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, is American. And Francis Crick is English--what language is Moby Dick written in? English.
RNA is found 124 times in Moby Dick. Tellurium-124 is a stable isotope of tellurium. Tellurium was discovered in 1782 by Franz-Joseph Müller von Reichenstein. It takes 40 key strokes to type Franz-Joseph Müller von Reichenstein; the full names of James Watson and Francis Crick have 40 letters.
WOW! Much amazing. What Chance. Doge
I'm sorry for using numbers with more than 4 digits :roll: I'll never try to use statistics in a discussion about statistics again :roll:
I think most people here kinda like me, that's why they gave me access to the banhammer and other cool features :)
Either that or they're a little naive in giving all that power away.
Quote from: "ciko"23. kaba ws first mentioned in verse 2:125
and lattitude of Kaba is 21 degrees 25 seconds
21.4225° N, actually. Nice try, though.
Quote from: "ciko"25. From north pole to kaba (km) / from kaba to south pole (km) = 1,618 ratio
when you measure in google earth
while if you look where word Mekka is positioned in the verse at exact ratio as in reality, 1,618
From north pole to kaba is 7625km; from kaba so south pole is 12390km
7625/12390=.615.... Even 12390/7625=1.624... which is closer, but still not what you claim--maybe I need to find an arabic map? :roll:
Quote from: "ciko"26. Venus mentioned 3 times, from first to second there is 243 verses, venus rotate around its own axis 243 days, while third times venus was mentioned was in 17:7 , and we know today that venus has 177 degree inclination.
How many versus between the second and third? What verse was the first two mentions? Why aren't those numbers important? Why not give the time it takes Venus to orbit the sun?
Quote from: "ciko"not true, it is mentinoned five time
dreadnaught
3 x kidnapping
kidnap
:
that's just there to confuse the unbelievers
Quote from: "ciko""Lattitude of Kaba in Mecca is about North 21 degrees, 25 minutes"
about. Its actual location is 21.422495°N 39.826165°E. Copy and past that into google and look what you find.
Even using you numbers comes up with 1.618034. . . again, closer but not actually what you claim. Why should close be enough for a miracle?
Quote from: "ciko"Quotethe subatomic particle we know as the neutron is so tenuous that it might as well not exist
you must be joking here, you as atheists, people who like science very much to say something like this :rolleyes: oh man
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ondis.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/neutrondis.html)
Discovery of the Neutron
It is remarkable that the neutron was not discovered until 1932 when James Chadwick used scattering data to calculate the mass of this neutral particle. Since the time of Rutherford it had been known that the atomic mass number A of nuclei is a bit more than twice the atomic number Z for most atoms and that essentially all the mass of the atom is concentrated in the relatively tiny nucleus. As of about 1930 it was presumed that the fundamental particles were protons and electrons, but that required that somehow a number of electrons were bound in the nucleus to partially cancel the charge of A protons. But by this time it was known from the uncertainty principle and from "particle-in-a-box" type confinement calculations that there just wasn't enough energy available to contain electrons in the nucleus.
Oh for pity's sake! Read what I wrote.
I know for a fact that you can read. So don't be dishonest.
Quote from: "Jason78"The link that you've provided between verse 18:39 of the Koran and the subatomic particle we know as the neutron is so tenuous that it might as well not exist.
I was referring to the link that you have made being tenuous. As you can plainly see.
Seeing as you're ascribing verse 18:65 to the discovery of DNA in 1865, then surely by your own rules: The neutron should be mentioned in verse 19:30, not 18:39.
I still say that you are making up the rules as you go along.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"The translation is beside the point, Ciko, as you would have understood had you read the full post. Since you seem to have missed the core question, allow me to repeat it: Why is it that no scholar ever used this to discover the red shift in the light of the other galaxies to determine that the universe is indeed expanding before Edwin Hubble discovered it himself?
how could they discover red shift without modern telescopes, impossible.
by the way, quran is not scinetific book, but book of signs, that you believe in it and followit in your life.
God says that universe expands, non-muslims confirm it whit their modern technology.
Oh for
fuck sakes,
fine, let me rephrase that:
Why has no scientific information ever been pulled out of the Quran before it was discovered by science?If the Quran really had any scientific value, we would not need your confirmation bias decades and centuries after these discoveries to show it.
Quote from: "ciko"but i presented you that universe was expanding according to quran, and science confirmed it in 19 century.
Scientists didn't make that discovery because of the Quran. The edition of the English Quran around at the time said nothing about expansion, either. Stop lying.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "ciko"but i presented you that universe was expanding according to quran, and science confirmed it in 19 century.
Scientists didn't make that discovery because of the Quran. The edition of the English Quran around at the time said nothing about expansion, either. Stop lying.
but i never said that #-o
You implied it by saying the Quran makes scientific statements, which goes back to my question: Why hasn't that information ever been pulled out and used before science made the discovery on its own? If the information on its own isn't usable, you can't claim that the Quran is scientific.
Oh, for fuck's sake. I assumed you had the capability to use decimals; I should have known better based on how you've used numbers in this thread. I prefer decimals because I think they look cleaner, so used them simply for that reason. I should have realized long ago that you are just copy-pasting with no understanding of what your past means, if you had such understanding you would not be befuddled by north-east coordinates. If you would prefer, 21° 25' 20.982" 39° 49' 34.194"; 21° 25' 20.982" is still not 21° 25', still close but only close.
If you want to get all Vincenty, then Kaba (did you think I missed where you shifted from talking about the Kaba's location to widening it to the entire city of Mecca?) is 76265.42849KM from the north pole and 123773.88610 Km to south: 123773.88610/76265.42849=1.62293569381 again, not the golden ratio. Or, staying Vincenty but using your 21° 25' (ignoring its not actually kaba's location) gives 123711.75827 km to south pole and 76327.55631 Km: 123711.75827/76327.55631=1.62080072061 Hey, look still not the golden ratio!
Why ignore the 2nd and 3rd sentences in my post? Why should close impress us? Why should your supposed god only be able to get close? Are we to be impressed that he can almost--but not quite--get a ringer in horseshoes?
Quote from: "Poison Tree"Why ignore the 2nd and 3rd sentences in my post?
If it were me, it would be because I agreed with those sentences. In Ciko's case, probably the same reason he ignores important chunks of my posts: the truth is inconvenient.
Quote from: "ciko"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Poison Tree"Why ignore the 2nd and 3rd sentences in my post?
If it were me, it would be because I agreed with those sentences. In Ciko's case, probably the same reason he ignores important chunks of my posts: the truth is inconvenient.
even if it were just like you asked for you still would not believe it and you would only put exuses
true are the words of God
God said in the quran:
6:111 Even if We sent the angels down to them, and the dead spoke to them, and We gathered all things right in front of them, they still would not believe, unless God so willed, but most of them are ignorant [of this].
If you think that, then why waist your time here?
Quote from: "ciko"6:111 Even if We sent the angels down to them, and the dead spoke to them, and We gathered all things right in front of them, they still would not believe, unless God so willed, but most of them are ignorant [of this].
bullshit! You're an idiot. He can't convince anyone because he CAN'T sent angels down and he CAN'T get the dead to speak. Don't you get it stupid? They make this shit up because they can't do it. If they could fucking DO it we WOULD be convinced.
Damn some people are complete retards.
Quote from: "ciko"God said in the quran:
6:111 Even if We sent the angels down to them, and the dead spoke to them, and We gathered all things right in front of them, they still would not believe, unless God so willed, but most of them are ignorant [of this].
There's a self fulfilling prophecy. If they believe, then woo hoo! One more convert. If they don't then your god willed it so.
You get to claim victory either way.
Quote from: "ciko"God said in the quran:
6:111 Even if We sent the angels down to them, and the dead spoke to them, and We gathered all things right in front of them, they still would not believe, unless God so willed, but most of them are ignorant [of this].
[youtube:24e9cbwc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yHDBHxAfI[/youtube:24e9cbwc]
It would at least prove that there was a being capable of doing this. Whether or not it's your particular god is another issue entirely. (//http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3580&p=988640#p988640)
Quote from: "ciko"the why dont you count it and present here for all of us?
You want me to do your work for you now? You're the one making extraordinary claims. Learn how to use statistics, then use statistics to prove you've found something statistically significant. I thought you did your research before you came here? I guess not.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "ciko"the why dont you count it and present here for all of us?
You want me to do your work for you now? You're the one making extraordinary claims. Learn how to use statistics, then use statistics to prove you've found something statistically significant. I thought you did your research before you came here? I guess not.
I already did some of the counting. It caused immediate brain shutdown on his side, because multiplication is "complicated mumbo jumbo". And we're not allowed to use statistics anymore because they prove that his claims are just coincidences, which can't be because they're in the Quran which is special because it's full of miracles, not coincidences :rolleyes:
That's not "testing" mathematics, though. That's making arguments to people who don't understand how basic math actually works.
Quote from: "Plu"I already did some of the counting. It caused immediate brain shutdown on his side, because multiplication is "complicated mumbo jumbo". And we're not allowed to use statistics anymore because they prove that his claims are just coincidences, which can't be because they're in the Quran which is special because it's full of miracles, not coincidences :rolleyes:
I guess anything beyond copying and pasting things from websites is too complicated for him to understand.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Plu"I already did some of the counting. It caused immediate brain shutdown on his side, because multiplication is "complicated mumbo jumbo". And we're not allowed to use statistics anymore because they prove that his claims are just coincidences, which can't be because they're in the Quran which is special because it's full of miracles, not coincidences :rolleyes:
I guess anything beyond copying and pasting things from websites is too complicated for him to understand.
As if that wasn't obvious from his first few posts. Generally, if you understand the material you can explain it in your own words assisted by quotes and images, not just blatant copy/paste bullshit.