10 years in jail and 2,000 lashes for tweeting that he was an atheist

[Mike Cl]

Proof?

  Creation is proof. How can something (the universe and everything in it) come from nothing. The complexity of all this points to a creator. Not just a matter of chance that every thing comes together perfectly. All of this had to come from something it did not just appear here.

Laws of nature that never change- must of been a designer of that. It's not by chance.

Objective morals

What kind of evidence would you expect to see from a timeless space less omnipresent, omnipotence, and omniscience God?




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Proof.  Yes, that thing that deals with evidence; not a theist's friend.  Why do you say the universe came from nothing?  How do you know that? 

The complexity is proof of a creator?  Only in your mind.  Why does god have to be complex?  Why not just be simple?

The universe comes together perfectly?  What is you definition of perfect? 

All of the universe had to come from somewhere--couldn't just appear here.  Why not?  And if the universe had to have come from somewhere, why does that somewhere have to be god?

I think you like to believe in god because it is simpler and easier for you to grasp this universe and all that is in it.  And then you can also add a 'why' to the universe.  Much, much less thinking to do then.

As a sort of proof against god, let me offer you nature.  Look closely at it.  Yes, it is beautiful.  And yes, it also savage, cruel and without feelings.  All lifeforms need energy to survive.  Animals all have to kill to get that energy.  Even the cow that eats grass, has to kill that grass to live.  Meat-eaters must kill other animals to live.  Have you ever watched predator and prey?  Not a pleasant sight.  All life is based upon killing to live.  Plants don't have to kill to live--they only need the sun and minerals.  (Of course, there is another system that developed in the lightless bottoms of the seas--just heat and minerals are needed for life.)  I, as a mere human, can figure out a better system than that.  Simply make all life sustain that life from solar energy.  Period--easy--and much more moral. 

Look at human childbirth.  Children are born every second with a huge assortment of defects.  That is your idea of perfection?  If this is a system created by your god, then I would spit in his face and brand him the horrid monster that he is.  I reject it. 

As I see it, the universe just is.  Yes, it came from something, but what exactly and how exactly, we don't fully understand yet.  (Oh, the hatred of the theist for the phrase--I don't know...........) That does not mean god did it.  And you may ask--as I have many, many times--if god did not do it, then how did it happen.  I don't know.  But thinking of answers always brings me to this basic question--if god is the creator, then what created him; and what created him; and what created him............and on forever.  Or what created the universe; and the on before that; and the one before that................and on forever.  Don't know and will never know. 

Morals.  Yes, totally subjective.  They are group created; culture created.  And they change.  They are rules devised by said culture to ensure the survival of that group.  The rules keep us from hurting each other; and as a social animal, those rules allow society to run much more smoothly and allow that group to gather more power. 

I also suggest that the bible is amoral at best and mostly simply immoral.  You suggest the bible gives us objective morals.  What are they? Where can they be found?

[Baruch]

No I would still be against abortion even if I knew you were going to be the outcome lol


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That is an ideology.  A position held in spite of contrary evidence ... though the situation where abortion is OK might be a small number of abortions.  See, if one figures one is a holy warrior for truth, justice and the American way, you can found your own ISIS to help Superman kill Batman.

[Baruch]

We don't have time machines. There is no such thing.


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It is a joke, particularly on JEB Bush.  We have time machines, they are called bodies, but they only have Forward, there is nor Reverse.

If you knew in advance, and it is 1930, would you assassinate Hitler?  No time machine required, just an imagination.  Some people here think Trump is Hitler, others think Hillary is Hitler.  What if one of them is, because you know in advance (aka you are G-d) ... do you kill?

[Baruch]

None of them are fucking right! Morals are right or wrong, they're SUBJECTIVE! They're a biological instinct, in our primitive era they kept us alive.

We are still in the Stone Age ... just ask anyone from Colorado ;-)

[Baruch]

What brought you to this conclusion? Your feelings? I would argue some people's ideas of morals kept some people dead not alive.

Morals are objective how people choose to view morals is subjective.


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I wish you were right.  But G-d says you are wrong.  G-d creates life, and kills everything that lives.

[Baruch]

Creation is evidence. For one to say there is no God they would have to have tremendous faith. Because there is no proof God doesn't exist. So you either have faith or you know everything. Which is it?


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Your grasp of logic needs polishing.  Natural language is a poor medium.  I say there is a G-d, and I am faithless.  Faith means trust, and G-d is not trustworthy in any fashion.  Read the last chapter of the Book of Job please.  For most here, experience is an argument against G-d ... for me the exact opposite.  I don't have to get into the technicalities of Creation, my own right hand is sufficient.  But that doesn't mean G-d is good ... just that G-d is handy ;-)

[Baruch]

Who created the creator?

What came before the Big Bang?  Same problem, but personal vs impersonal.  Modern people believe that life comes from non-life ... ancients believed the opposite.

[Kaleb5000]

No, logic did. Yes, some people lack certain morals. Morals are not objective, if so, where do they come from? They're not logical, they only have a basis in biology.

If morals are not objective why do we all no certain things are bad starting at a very young age.

Murder is bad

Lying is bad

Stealing is bad

Cheating on your wife is bad

That is a fact (objective)




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[Kaleb5000]

Proof.  Yes, that thing that deals with evidence; not a theist's friend.  Why do you say the universe came from nothing?  How do you know that? 


I never said the universe came from nothing I said it cant come from nothing. There for there must be a creator



The complexity is proof of a creator?  Only in your mind.  Why does god have to be complex?  Why not just be simple? 

How can a simple being be the creator of all we know. How can a simple being be all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere all at once?



The universe comes together perfectly?  What is you definition of perfect? 

The fact the sun rises everyday. Gravity continues to exist? We have air to breath? The circle of life.



All of the universe had to come from somewhere--couldn't just appear here.  Why not?  And if the universe had to have come from somewhere, why does that somewhere have to be god?

How else can some thing be created from nothing?



I think you like to believe in god because it is simpler and easier for you to grasp this universe and all that is in it.  And then you can also add a 'why' to the universe.  Much, much less thinking to do then.

  Actually it's easier to believe what ever you want to believe and do what ever you want to do and be held accountable by no one.

   I used to be agnostic and believe me life was much simpler then. I did not care how we got here or why or about where I was going when I died.

As a sort of proof against god, let me offer you nature.  Look closely at it.  Yes, it is beautiful.  And yes, it also savage, cruel and without feelings.  All lifeforms need energy to survive.  Animals all have to kill to get that energy.  Even the cow that eats grass, has to kill that grass to live.  Meat-eaters must kill other animals to live.  Have you ever watched predator and prey?  Not a pleasant sight.  All life is based upon killing to live.  Plants don't have to kill to live--they only need the sun and minerals.  (Of course, there is another system that developed in the lightless bottoms of the seas--just heat and minerals are needed for life.)  I, as a mere human, can figure out a better system than that.  Simply make all life sustain that life from solar energy.  Period--easy--and much more

Why is killing to eat a bad thing. It is perfect in my opinion. The circle of life.

Look at human childbirth.  Children are born every second with a huge assortment of defects.  That is your idea of perfection?  If this is a system created by your god, then I would spit in his face and brand him the horrid monster that he is.  I reject

Why do you assume defects and disease come from God?

As I see it, the universe just is.  Yes, it came from something, but what exactly and how exactly, we don't fully understand yet.  (Oh, the hatred of the theist for the phrase--I don't know...........) That does not mean god did it.  And you may ask--as I have many, many times--if god did not do it, then how did it happen.  I don't know.  But thinking of answers always brings me to this basic question--if god is the creator, then what created him; and what created him; and what created him............and on forever.  Or what created the universe; and the on before that; and the one before that................and on forever.  Don't know and will never know.

Why do you assume God had a creator? He is infinite? No beginning no end?   



I also suggest that the bible is amoral at best and mostly simply immoral.  You suggest the bible gives us objective morals.  What are they? Where can they be found?

    The creator gives us morals.

But my favorite from the bible that will cover everything

  "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

Imagine a world where everyone carried this out perfectly?




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[Kaleb5000]

It is a joke, particularly on JEB Bush.  We have time machines, they are called bodies, but they only have Forward, there is nor Reverse.

If you knew in advance, and it is 1930, would you assassinate Hitler?  No time machine required, just an imagination.  Some people here think Trump is Hitler, others think Hillary is Hitler.  What if one of them is, because you know in advance (aka you are G-d) ... do you kill?

No I would not kill hitler. But if t was World War Two and he was in my sights I would shoot him.


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[Kaleb5000]

Your grasp of logic needs polishing.  Natural language is a poor medium.  I say there is a G-d, and I am faithless.  Faith means trust, and G-d is not trustworthy in any fashion.  Read the last chapter of the Book of Job please.  For most here, experience is an argument against G-d ... for me the exact opposite.  I don't have to get into the technicalities of Creation, my own right hand is sufficient.  But that doesn't mean G-d is good ... just that G-d is handy ;-)

For me to address any of this please tell me what G-d is.


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[Kaleb5000]

What came before the Big Bang?  Same problem, but personal vs impersonal.  Modern people believe that life comes from non-life ... ancients believed the opposite.

Not quite the same problem. God is infinite he has no beginning or end.


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[DeltaEpsilon]

If morals are not objective why do we all no certain things are bad starting at a very young age.

Murder is bad

Lying is bad

Stealing is bad

Cheating on your wife is bad

That is a fact (objective)




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No, these are not objective facts. Where do you get these from?

[DeltaEpsilon]

If morals are not objective why do we all no certain things are bad starting at a very young age.

Murder is bad

Lying is bad

Stealing is bad

Cheating on your wife is bad

That is a fact (objective)




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Ah, I see. You get these morals from the illogical waste of trees known as, the Bible. Grow up, the Bible is a load of horseshit. There is no god, you don't get to go to heaven. The earth isn't flat (as implied in the Bible), man evolved from lower life forms and were not created, accept it and move on. Why don't you maintain an open mind and think to yourself "is this really logical?". you don't have to tell me because there is nothing a human hates more than being proven wrong. Accept the facts and move on, a good atheist/evolutionist primer is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

[Mike Cl]

You--I never said the universe came from nothing I said it cant come from nothing. There for there must be a creator

Me--Where did you get the notion that the universe came from nothing?

You--How can a simple being be the creator of all we know. How can a simple being be all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere all at once?
Me--This is your fiction--you tell me.


You--The fact the sun rises everyday. Gravity continues to exist? We have air to breath? The circle of life.
Me--this is your perfection???  You do know why the sun rises everyday?  Right???  You do know how gravity works?  Right?  And you do know where 'air' comes from?  Right??  The circle of life--are you quoting a Disney movie????

You--  Actually it's easier to believe what ever you want to believe and do what ever you want to do and be held accountable by no one.
Me--It is easier to believe in anything I want?  Well, no not really.  I like to use reason to figure things out.  BTW, I don't think as I do because of belief and faith.  I need facts and reasons to think a certain way.  I can't just create things to believe in.  Accountable to no one?  First, I don't need a monster god who threatens me with hell to act humanly towards people and animals.  I do so because it is the right thing to do.  And I have reasons for that thought.   

You--  I used to be agnostic and believe me life was much simpler then. I did not care how we got here or why or about where I was going when I died.
Me--I used to be agnostic, as well.  I am now a full blown atheist.  I know where I'm going when I die.  I will become dust and then separate atoms.   


You--Why is killing to eat a bad thing. It is perfect in my opinion. The circle of life.
Me--Killing is bad in that it is simply not necessary for life to be.  I'm not surprised you don't have a problem with it--being as you are so moral, and all. 
     The circle of life--what is that to you?


You--Why do you assume defects and disease come from God?
Me--Where else would they come from?  Is there another creator in your universe??????


You--Why do you assume God had a creator? He is infinite? No beginning no end?
Me--Why not assume the universe always was and will be?????? 





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