Use of Force Training May Need An Update

[Flanker1Six]

As a long time UoF Trainer (long since expired certifications); disturbance control and "forced move" specialist/trainer...................I have to admit this shit just baffles me.   How in dog's name any of these officers thought shooting was even remotely necessary, let alone justified; completely eludes me.   

In this case; all the responding officers had was an "alleged" man threatening others with a gun complaint.   While I'm not familiar with Louisiana's laws regarding this type of complaint.............I'll guess they're not that much different than my State's.  I don't think the police even had enough probable cause to try and subdue the victim (never mind shooting him as they had him pinned to the ground!).   I could call in some **** about any of you (reading this) doing anything I cared to allege.  Does that make it OK for the police to come over and jump on you?   WTF??!!   How about a few questions first, boys?  Observation of the subjects demeanor, listen to his story, listen to his speech and observe his eyes (intoxication assessment).   Hey, how about talking to other store patrons, and the clerk/owner, or passersby?   

Guess they attended different courses than me.   OK skip that sniveling "community policing" approach ****!  Let's get right to the subduing portion.   They wrestle a bit; get him down, both are on top of the guy as he's wedged against a large immovable object. They are in control of the situation and the suspect. Even if the guy has a gun (supposedly in one of the victim's pockets according to one report I read/watched today); unless he gets his hand on it and attempts to draw or fire it; there is NO justification for use of deadly force!  No evidence so far the victim did either.   

Ol Quick Draw McGraw sure got a good group in the vic's chest though. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alton-sterling-video_us_577d668ae4b0c590f7e7d2a7

****!  This one is even worse than the first.   The victim, his girl friend, and her/their child are stopped for a broken tail light on their vehicle.  The victim (according to the girlfriend in one report) informs the officer he has a legally carried fire arm with him.  The officer tells the victim to produce his license, proof of insurance, etc.  As the victim proceeds to do so the officer shoots the guy to death in front of the girl friend and kid!!!   (Depending on which report you read or watch there are slight variations to the "who does/says what parts of this story).  There again; unless the victim actually had his hand on his fire arm, and was attempting to fire, or draw it (no evidence so far that either happened)...............NO justification for UoF; let alone Deadly Force!   

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/

[TomFoolery]

As the victim proceeds to do so the officer shoots the guy to death in front of the girl friend and kid!!!   (Depending on which report you read or watch there are slight variations to the "who does/says what parts of this story).  There again; unless the victim actually had his hand on his fire arm, and was attempting to fire, or draw it (no evidence so far that either happened)...............NO justification for UoF; let alone Deadly Force! 

What has baffled me more about this particular shooting has been the questions and comments that a lot of people are making about the details. So far I've seen:

"I heard the girl was 7 not 4, and not even his real daughter." <- Because age and paternity matter a lot when shooting a man in front of a child during a routine traffic stop, apparently.

"Why is the girlfriend so calm?" <- She's not. Watch the video.

"Why is the kid so calm?" <- Stunned maybe? Different people react differently.

"But the officer was Asian, not white." <-Oh, so that means they were Asian bullets? Got it.

"He shouldn't have reached for his wallet." <- The cop told him to.

"Why does he have a gun? He shouldn't have had a gun." <- He had a concealed carry permit and was doing almost the first damn thing they teach in every class, which is to identify the fact that you have a permit if law enforcement asks you to. No matter my stance on the 2nd amendment, apparently some of it's loudest supporters don't seem to think it should apply to black people.

[Johan]

Let's play a game. I'll post a link, describe what the link shows and then ask a question about it. You read the question, then guess the answer, then click the link and see if you're right. I'm predicting 100% of you will get the right answer the first time.

Link:
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

Description:
Its a news item about a man who was standing on a city street holding a rifle while possibly intoxicated. 911 was called, police arrived and ordered him to put the gun down. He did not do so. For like 40 minutes. He was not shot nor beaten nor harmed in any way nor even charged with any crime in the end.


Question:
What is the color of his skin?

[chill98]

The Minnesota case is a nightmare for the police.  The guy was in charge of the lunch program... a flipping lunch lady so to speak, at a Montessori school for krists sake and an employee of this particular school district since graduating high school (iirc) from the same district.

They released the names of the police involved.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-crowd-gathers-scene-minnesota-police-shooting-40396832

A minnesota tv station has an unconfirmed recording of the interaction between dispatch and the officers at the scene.  I am guessing it is from Broadcastify.

The militarization of the police has accelerated in the last 20 years with this inevitable result.  It is to the point where if you have an issue, the last phone call you should make is to the police, who have been terrorized by the training, to believe that every situation is a potential death match with a waiting-to-be-unleashed maniac who wants to kill them.

And it just got worse:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-shots-fired-dallas-protest-40422632

 

[chill98]

Let's play a game. I'll post a link, describe what the link shows and then ask a question about it. You read the question, then guess the answer, then click the link and see if you're right. I'm predicting 100% of you will get the right answer the first time.

Link:
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

Description:
Its a news item about a man who was standing on a city street holding a rifle while possibly intoxicated. 911 was called, police arrived and ordered him to put the gun down. He did not do so. For like 40 minutes. He was not shot nor beaten nor harmed in any way nor even charged with any crime in the end.

Question:
What is the color of his skin?

He only survived because he wasn't walking his dog:

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/02/police_shooting_of_dog_named_b.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/05/state_pays_40000_settlement_af.html

[Flanker1Six]

The militarization of the police has accelerated in the last 20 years with this inevitable result.

Funny you should mention that. 

It's actually been going on (there is a large variance from agency to agency i.e some haven't done much of this at all) for closer to 30 years than 20.   This shit really took off after 911, when "The Kraken" (aka Homeland Security) came into being, and more importantly the Fed Dollars (all taken from you know who) started rolling down hill into State, County, and Local budgets.................so they could up their anti terrorism game.  A second tsunami of this started after the Iraq and Afghanistan draw downs, and military budget cutbacks of the current Admin.  Only this time it was mostly surplus gear/equipment (up to and including MRAPS) instead of a Fed Dollar flow.   

Far more ominous is the degree to which the Feds themselves have been "kitting up" over the last 3-5 years.  How much legitimate need do you think the IRS, FDA, SBA (Small Business Admin), SSA (Social SEcurity Admin) have for military style rifles and equipment?   

Some real eyebrow raising stats in this article:

http://www.openthebooks.com/pj_media_while_dems_obama_fight_for_gun_control_federal_agencies_are_arming_up/

Here's a taste:

Of that total amount, ‘Traditional Law Enforcement’ Agencies spent 77 percent ($1.14 billion) while ‘Administrative’ or ‘General’ Agencies spent 23 percent ($335.1 million).   

I have to disagree that the two shootings (or any others for that matter) cited in my OP; are the inevitable result of "police militarization".   I ran into quite a few "issues" with various individuals over the years of teaching UoF/DF, Disturbance Control, Critical/Hostage Incident Management, and designing and implementing TrainExes (Training Exercises).   

The sad fact is................while most COs & LEOs are just fine for the multitude of routine duties they have to perform.  When the shit hits the fan, and that pulse/heart rate hit 140 many start to make adrenaline driven "mistakes".   Basically; at 140 BPM; virtually all people start to suffer from loss of fine motor control and higher mental processing/filtering.   As Riddick would say, your animal side starts to take over. Fight or flight.....................that's the options.  We referred to it as LOLO.  Lock On/Lock Out.  Totally locked on to a single thing (in your mind) while locking out all other factors/perceptions.  This can be over come with A LOT OF TRAINING/PRACTICE which the vast majority of COs/LEOs do not get, and/or the individual doing a lot of mental/emotional exercises (running through stuff in your mind and getting all the extraneous shit settled, and out of the way in advance of "the real thing" actually happening). 

Like any other skill or ability, (e.g. aptitude for math, teaching, care giving, gymnastics etc)  some just have more of them than others.  It's the same for being able to stay calm, and think clearly....................both of which are nice to have when it's life and death for you and others. 

Still looks to me like the officers in my OP just plain fucked up, and unless there are some extenuating circumstances that come out.............they're gonna eat those bad calls.   

[stromboli]

My personal experience working with cops as a firefighter was that they were not well trained to begin with. Anyone packing a gun for a living ought to be put though some intensive confrontational situations before they handle it in real life. I carried a gun for approximately 1.5 years working for the federal Protective Service ( I hired on as a firefighter but became an armed guard also) and got little training. the irony is I was better trained because of the military and my own experience with handguns than the guy who was supposed to teach us.

Personally do everything I can to avoid dealing with cops. Between experiences with county mounties growing up and working with them later, not too confident in their overall skill level.

[Atheon]

They should hire Yoda to train them how to use the Force.

[chill98]

I have to disagree that the two shootings (or any others for that matter) cited in my OP; are the inevitable result of "police militarization".   I ran into quite a few "issues" with various individuals over the years of teaching UoF/DF, Disturbance Control, Critical/Hostage Incident Management, and designing and implementing TrainExes (Training Exercises).   

The sad fact is................while most COs & LEOs are just fine for the multitude of routine duties they have to perform.  When the shit hits the fan, and that pulse/heart rate hit 140 many start to make adrenaline driven "mistakes".   Basically; at 140 BPM; virtually all people start to suffer from loss of fine motor control and higher mental processing/filtering. 

As Riddick would say, your animal side starts to take over. Fight or flight.....................that's the options.  We referred to it as LOLO.  Lock On/Lock Out.  Totally locked on to a single thing (in your mind) while locking out all other factors/perceptions.  This can be over come with A LOT OF TRAINING/PRACTICE which the vast majority of COs/LEOs do not get, and/or the individual doing a lot of mental/emotional exercises (running through stuff in your mind and getting all the extraneous shit settled, and out of the way in advance of "the real thing" actually happening).     

Except these things did not happen in a Fight/Flight situation.  LA = man pinned to the ground ends up dead from a shot fired by police.   MN = man shot sitting in his car - variables on exactly what happened but it seems he was shot because he informed the officer he was conceal/carry and the officer freaked out.  There is no FLIGHT involved, rather it is all FIGHT.  And that is (imnsho) directly as a result of police training, a kill or be killed mentality.  No Retreat mentality.  And as HORRIFIC as the Dallas shootings are, there you have an actual FLEE/FIGHT example.  How  many shots were fired by police that night?  And honestly I hate to say this, but in Dallas, they were actually in a fight for their lives unlike Louisiana or Minnesota... or Ferguson or New York or Illinois, etc.

When they are actually fighting for their lives, they behave better; Boston, San Bernidino both come to mind.  It is these routine situations where they are completely losing their minds.  OK that may be a broad generalization but its beginning to really bother me, the amount of civilians being killed for being mentally ill (sick), having a bad day, being homeless, having a burned out tail light, etc, because the cop is paranoid.

Still looks to me like the officers in my OP just plain fucked up, and unless there are some extenuating circumstances that come out.............they're gonna eat those bad calls.

Fucked up for sure. 

[Flanker1Six]

Except these things did not happen in a Fight/Flight situation.  LA = man pinned to the ground ends up dead from a shot fired by police.   MN = man shot sitting in his car - variables on exactly what happened but it seems he was shot because he informed the officer he was conceal/carry and the officer freaked out.  There is no FLIGHT involved, rather it is all FIGHT.  And that is (imnsho) directly as a result of police training, a kill or be killed mentality.  No Retreat mentality.  And as HORRIFIC as the Dallas shootings are, there you have an actual FLEE/FIGHT example.  How  many shots were fired by police that night?  And honestly I hate to say this, but in Dallas, they were actually in a fight for their lives unlike Louisiana or Minnesota... or Ferguson or New York or Illinois, etc.

When they are actually fighting for their lives, they behave better; Boston, San Bernidino both come to mind.  It is these routine situations where they are completely losing their minds.  OK that may be a broad generalization but its beginning to really bother me, the amount of civilians being killed for being mentally ill (sick), having a bad day, being homeless, having a burned out tail light, etc, because the cop is paranoid.

Fucked up for sure.

The Baton Rouge was absolutely FoF.  As soon as the wrestling started all three of them dumped, (adrenaline) and went in to FoF; in fact, it's very likely one or more went into it due to emotional anticipation based on previous experiences prior to physical contact.   Should it have been?  As I stated in my OP I don't think so; the officers went in too hard and fast on a report that had little to no substantiated detailed info.  Based on media reports, the video itself, and my experiences as a trainer, commander, and incident review specialist the officers precipitated the fatal event by being too aggressive initially, and thereby placing themselves into a position where a misjudgement and over reaction became all the more likely.  Only time and the rest of the facts will tell.

The Minnesota incident might not have been FoF, but could have been.  Regardless of which participant said what, in what order, to who..................if the officer honestly thought the victim was reaching for his gun (highly improbable[reaching for the gun]; there again, based on media reports and the video).............instant dump, and FoF reaction.  In the end; maybe it didn't happen that way.................as I said this one looks even more cut and dried against the officer than the Baton Rouge incident.   

Thanks to Stromboli for bringing up an excellent point that I did not.  Lack of training, especially annual recert, and practice of all kinds for smaller departments, and county agencies; especially in cash strapped rural areas--though can happen in larger urban agencies as well.  Very much parallels my own experiences.  I hate to use the Barney Fife analogy; but it does occur.     

Thanks for your insight that police have a kill or be killed; no retreat mentality directly as a result of their training.............35+ years in the biz and I never got to take those courses.  Not to mention all the people I mis trained.  Fuck!  I hope I don't get sued!    

When they're actually fighting for their lives they behave better.    You mean "those people"?    Yea!  Them!  You know how they are!   







   

[chill98]

Thanks for your insight that police have a kill or be killed; no retreat mentality directly as a result of their training.............35+ years in the biz and I never got to take those courses.  Not to mention all the people I mis trained.  Fuck!  I hope I don't get sued!    

Well maybe you are too old to realize whats been going on then.

The next spring, Mr. Tueller published his findings in SWAT magazine and transformed police training in the United States. The “21-foot rule” became dogma. It has been taught in police academies around the country, accepted by courts and cited by officers to justify countless shootings, including recent episodes involving a homeless woodcarver in Seattle and a schizophrenic woman in San Francisco.

Mr. Wexler’s group will meet with hundreds of police leaders in Washington this week to call for a new era of training, one that replaces truisms such as the 21-foot rule with lessons on defusing tense situations and avoiding violent confrontations.

The typical police cadet receives about 58 hours of training on how to use a gun and 49 hours on defensive tactics, according to a recent survey by Mr. Wexler’s group. By comparison, cadets spend just eight hours learning to calm situations before force is needed, a technique called de-escalation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/us/police-start-to-reconsider-longstanding-rules-on-using-force.html?_r=0

The citizens panel has recommended the trainer be removed from the Austin Police Training Academy. The damage, however, is already done. Joseph is dead.  And the trainer has been a part of APD for fourteen years and training cadets in Austin for a decade. The report went as far as to say that the trainer’s mindset “will likely propagate to new recruits that de-escalation need not be part of the tool-kit of new officers.”

http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/austin-pd-de-escalation/

Soooo how many years ago did you stop training police officers?  Maybe you're just a bit out of touch with whats been going on outside of your training experience.

[Flanker1Six]

I haven't conducted any training since mid '12, when I was responsible for a group of armed security personnel; subcontracted to a large Federal Agency at several high risk facilities overseas (we used a UoF continuum/model that was identical to the one my old State Agency used).  On average, I receive 2-3 weekly inquiries about going back to that program, or one of it's sister programs (other third world garden spots--different employer--same clients). Oddly enough; I still have dozens of former associates I stay in contact with, as well as professional journals, and trade publications I routinely read; not to mention the occasional "gem" amidst all the blah, blah, blah on the net.  I certainly DO NOT know it all, but I'm confident I'm as experienced and current in my "sphere" as any other forum member.   

The 21 foot rule has been around for going on 40 years (GULP!  1977 for me!--glad to hear that dude invented it in the '80s!).  It's called a "reactionary gap"--the space you need to preserve your, and any suspects safety; via all the options in the standard LE/CJ use of force continuum.  The Use of Force Continuum is paired with a Resistance Continuum.  While I won't discuss details; the UoF continuum has always been from least appropriately forceful to most appropriately forceful.  That is determined by the totality of the circumstances of each incident.  That means two things:  You always use the least amount of force necessary to gain compliance/situational control, and depending on the ToC.............you don't have to start out with the least amount, but may go directly to a force level one step up from the resistance being displayed. 

Needless to say; out of the thousands of LE/CJ UoF trainers in the US, there will be a percentage who improperly teach their Dept/Agency's approved program for a variety of reasons.  Shame on them; they need correction, discipline, removal from position as appropriate.  There are also undoubtedly some agencies who need to update/revise their their UoF training programs.   There are hundreds of individual training/recert programs at the local, country, state, and federal levels.  Any of them that are only teaching 8 hours of incident deescalation needs to improve that amount.   EVERY UoF training program I've taken (going back to the mid evil late 70s), every session I've trained, or I session I supervised the certified trainer--placed heavy emphasis on preempting violent encounters via early intervention, deescalation, and believe it or not.....taking a step/s backward and/or running away if the situation warrants it and it's safe to do so.   There's a lot less paperwork, blood, sweat, and hop scotching about if the situation can be safely handled that way.

PS:  You do realize the title of this thread is Use of Force Training May Need an Update?   

[chill98]

I haven't conducted any training since mid '12, when I was responsible for a group of armed security personnel; subcontracted to a large Federal Agency at several high risk facilities overseas (we used a UoF continuum/model that was identical to the one my old State Agency used).  On average, I receive 2-3 weekly inquiries about going back to that program, or one of it's sister programs (other third world garden spots--different employer--same clients). I certainly DO NOT know it all, but I'm confident I'm as experienced and current in my "sphere" as any other forum member. 

This is all fine and dandy but I don't see where your training program has anything at all to do with local police training. IE it seems the actual answer to the question I asked is:

"well I haven't personally been involved with training police in the usa"

The 21 foot rule has been around for going on 40 years (GULP!  1977 for me!--glad to hear that dude invented it in the '80s!).  It's called a "reactionary gap"--the space you need to preserve your, and any suspects safety; via all the options in the standard LE/CJ use of force continuum.  The Use of Force Continuum is paired with a Resistance Continuum. 

Seems you are combining multiple considerations in your response.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2013/07/closing-the-gap.aspx

Reprint of 1983 article:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

PS:  You do realize the title of this thread is Use of Force Training May Need an Update?   

Yes I do, and with that in mind I tried to join in with the subject, only to be mocked by you.  What do I know about it?  I know as much as you regarding the incidents in the news right now.  I am as much an 'expert' as you are regarding the shootings in MN, LA, WA, CA, TX, etc, as in we are both civilians pondering whats gone wrong biased by each of our own life experiences.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Do we have to wear the helmet with the blast shield down?

[Flanker1Six]

Do we have to wear the helmet with the blast shield down?

It's up to you!  I always wore mine down; due to many of the prisoners propensity to throw fluids; ranging from water to piss/vomit to who knows what they got a hold of.  In any genuine disturbance type situation we almost always wore chemical agent masks with the helmets; due to interference............you had to remove the shield from the helmet then.   

I'd be a rotten rioter.  All you'd have to do is show me the gas, and I'd be running for home.  That shit is nasty!