Religion as a response to climate?

[Colanth]

Peter Turchin makes a reasonable case for organized religion having come about as a response to the Younger Dryas (or maybe even some earlier climactic change) at //http://socialevolutionforum.com/2013/05/20/why-become-a-farmer/.

So here's the logic of my explanation. Rampant warfare, resulting from climate change, leads to intense selection for larger society size. In order to make this transition, a number of seemingly disparate, but actually synergistic cultural traits need to coevolve. One bundle of cultural traits, which is needed, is what makes agriculture possible – not only knowledge of how to cultivate plants and herd livestock, but also new social norms such as property rights. Another set of cultural traits, which actually had to appear first, was what glued together large groups. This is why monuments, used for ritualistic purposes by large groups of people, according to this theory, can (in fact are expected) to appear before the transition to agriculture.

The monuments he's speaking of are the Göbekli Tepe type - huge constructs seemingly for the purpose of worship by very large numbers of people.  (There's a lot more before the quoted paragraph, leading up to it quite logically.)

[josephpalazzo]

Thanks for the article.

The only thing so far I would disagree is in the statement:"Rampant warfare, resulting from climate change, leads to intense selection for larger society size. ". I would say, "resulting from diminishing resources", which would include climate change as this could precipitate a resource that was already in decline.

But the point about cohesion and the need for rituals was already known. I wonder why the author seems to present that as a novelty.

[Colanth]

Thanks for the article.

The only thing so far I would disagree is in the statement:"Rampant warfare, resulting from climate change, leads to intense selection for larger society size. ". I would say, "resulting from diminishing resources", which would include climate change as this could precipitate a resource that was already in decline.

But the point about cohesion and the need for rituals was already known. I wonder why the author seems to present that as a novelty.

Increasing resources lead to higher population density, which also leads to diminishing resources.  Climate change, whether for better or worse, is probably the only independent variable here.  (Peter is speaking from a cliodynamic viewpoint.)

[josephpalazzo]

Thanks for the article.

The only thing so far I would disagree is in the statement:"Rampant warfare, resulting from climate change, leads to intense selection for larger society size. ". I would say, "resulting from diminishing resources", which would include climate change as this could precipitate a resource that was already in decline.

But the point about cohesion and the need for rituals was already known. I wonder why the author seems to present that as a novelty.

Increasing resources lead to higher population density, which also leads to diminishing resources.  Climate change, whether for better or worse, is probably the only independent variable here.  (Peter is speaking from a cliodynamic viewpoint.)

Diminishing resources, whether due to climate change or higher population is a moot point.

[WitchSabrina]

I'm sorry - maybe I'm just too tired to make sense out of much of anything.........  but......... what's god got to do with ANY of this?
 :rollin:

[Plu]

God is how you get a whole bunch of people together and make them listen to (and pay taxes to) a king they've never seen. It's how you convince people not to kill the other guys in the city, even though there's no family bond and you don't know the guy, because you're all "children of god" and even though the town watch won't be able to catch you, "god has seen it".

Basically god is big brother and it's great for keeping your subjects surpressed and docile when you have too many to know them all by name.

[WitchSabrina]

God is how you get a whole bunch of people together and make them listen to (and pay taxes to) a king they've never seen. It's how you convince people not to kill the other guys in the city, even though there's no family bond and you don't know the guy, because you're all "children of god" and even though the town watch won't be able to catch you, "god has seen it".

Basically god is big brother and it's great for keeping your subjects surpressed and docile when you have too many to know them all by name.

That.  Is.   Retarded.





 :rollin:


(but thanks for getting back to me Plu.  I was cornfused)

[stromboli]

I posted an article on Gobekli Tebe a year or so ago. To answer Sabrina, the belief-supported by several authorities- is that religion, not a pastoral lifestyle (farming) was the driving force for both building the structure (which clearly appears to be a temple) and settlement in an area to build the temple. The temple was built and modified over many years, so something had to drive the decision to stay there and keep working on the site.

As I recall, the temple itself predates any settlement nearby, so that was the focus of their staying there.

The Younger Dryas may well be a big factor. something certainly triggered the change from hunter/gather to farming, whatever it was.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

God is how you get a whole bunch of people together and make them listen to (and pay taxes to) a king they've never seen. It's how you convince people not to kill the other guys in the city, even though there's no family bond and you don't know the guy, because you're all "children of god" and even though the town watch won't be able to catch you, "god has seen it".

Basically god is big brother and it's great for keeping your subjects surpressed and docile when you have too many to know them all by name.

That.  Is.   Retarded.





 :rollin:


(but thanks for getting back to me Plu.  I was cornfused)

Maybe I'm smoking to much pot or you're smoking to much pot, but your initial response here makes me think of smoking pot.
Good point Plu. :)

[Colanth]

Turchin's point is that scarce resources (due to whatever cause) would cause people to fight for what's left.  Not fight others in their own group but fight those of other groups.  (He groups them by language/custom, which is probably valid before the concepts of city, nation, ethnicity, etc. occurred.)  The groups that survived were the larger groups.  How do you get a large cohesive group?  Common language, common custom - and common beliefs (religion).  Maybe that occurred randomly, maybe some chieftain came up with the idea, who knows?  But once you start gathering a lot of people in one place, you need to keep them fed, especially if you want them to construct and raise 18 foot megaliths.  That leads to, if not agriculture, pastoralism.  (Göbekli Tepe drew people from what was, at that time, a VERY LARGE area - dozens of miles, at least, and possibly more than 100 miles.)

Or maybe pastoralism and religion reinforced each other over a few decades or centuries.  Theories abound, and bottom-up (agriculture led to cities) is only one of them now, even though it was the only one for a very long time.

Another thing to remember (having very little to do directly with religion) is that this was a construct far in advance of Stonehenge - but the earliest layers may have been built as early as 14-15kya - 9,000-10,000 years before Stonehenge.  (Even the latest dates, around 10kya, still place it 5,000 years earlier than Stonehenge.)

[Youssuf Ramadan]

Yep, and not surprisingly when the previously nomadic peoples settled down, their gods settled down with them, right about the time that the old animal gods were swapped or 'reworked' as 'human' gods with human characteristics.  And this is part way along the road that led eventually to monotheism which, for me, is where the wheels really fell of the religious cart.   Up to then the 'gods' were seen as a reflection of what was happening on the ground rather than being one monolithic authority which could do no wrong.

And yes, somewhere along the way, some of the more switched on notables realised that fear of gawd(s) is one of the most potent social control mechanisms.

[SGOS]

I'm sorry - maybe I'm just too tired to make sense out of much of anything.........  but......... what's god got to do with ANY of this?
 :rollin:

Well, that's the ever present question I ask all the time about everything that theists invent, whether it be an explanation for a bumper harvest or an excellent bowel movement....... what's god got to do with any of this?

So religion as an outgrowth of climate?  Sure, but I think you could make a case for religion being an outgrowth of practically anything, and the same question, "what's god got to do with it," will still apply.

[ApostateLois]

God is how you get a whole bunch of people together and make them listen to (and pay taxes to) a king they've never seen. It's how you convince people not to kill the other guys in the city, even though there's no family bond and you don't know the guy, because you're all "children of god" and even though the town watch won't be able to catch you, "god has seen it".

Basically god is big brother and it's great for keeping your subjects surpressed and docile when you have too many to know them all by name.

Religion is still used this way today. The Pope can't very well go around to each Catholic home to make sure they are following the Church's rules, but God sees everything--and what he doesn't want to be bothered with, he delegates to Jesus, Mary, various angels, and several hundred saints. There is ALWAYS someone watching you masturbate to gay animal porn!

[LikelyToBreak]

Sounds like just another version of Socrates' "Noble Lie."  Which the people in power use to stay in power.  Climate change or population explosion or both, getting and staying in power over others is a re-occurring event in history.

[aitm]

There is ALWAYS someone watching you masturbate to gay animal porn!

 8-[


 :oops: