Started by GSOgymrat, November 20, 2021, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 02:38:00 PMNo, how one acquired that wealth is important, it is wrong if they gained it through exploitation of labour, or inheritance or other illegitimate means that don't involve earning it or working for it and just make you a parasite riding on the backs of your workers or in the case of inheritance, your family.
Quote from: trdsf on January 09, 2022, 05:04:05 PMWhich comes down to how one defines 'exploitation'. If someone is fairly compensated for their work, with fair pay and fair benefits and fair hours, is that still exploitative?
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 05:08:36 PMYes, as it is not truly fair, they extract the surplus value if the Workers' labour and they are not fully entitled to the fruits of their labour and are figuratively unable to reap what they sow and what they get paid is always minute compared to what the CEO makes. There is still private appropriation of wealth.
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 05:09:41 PMAlso, since their goal is to maximize profit, it is more profitable for them to pay them lower wages and give them less benefits so that is what they often do.
Quote from: trdsf on January 09, 2022, 05:21:45 PMSo even though I explicitly stipulated fair wages and fair benefits and fair hours, you simply ignore that, Way to strawman there.
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 05:24:42 PMI am not attempting to strawman, I am trying to explain that there is no such thing as a fair wage and that it is still exploitation of labour.
Quote from: trdsf on January 09, 2022, 05:45:13 PM"No such thing as a fair wage". Which means it's unfair even under communism, then.I don't disagree that corporate executives are vastly overcompensated, but even without their exorbitant wages, you still need to have a hierarchy in order to be responsible for decision-making at departmental and organizational levels (and to be responsible if their decisions prove wrong), especially when unexpected events comes up. Not everything can wait on a committee or a vote.And that means stratification is always going to exist. You can't get around it by rotating in new decision-makers by sortition because not everyone has the skillset necessary to make decisions on that scale. I am a fairly intelligent person, but I know that if I were tasked to run our agency, I'd make a dog's breakfast of it. You still have to fall back on (s)elections between people who want the position (even if the candidates are weeded out by some interview process to determine that they actually have the skills necessary for decision-making)... and that takes you right back to organizational stratification again.Large scale organizations, be they corporate or not, are not self-organizing, self-directing, or self-operating.
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 05:49:28 PMIn a Communist Society there is no wage at all as it is moneyless, there is no money. In a Communist Society there is a gift economy "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" as Marx had worded it.
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 05:51:26 PMYou mean within Socialism and in Socialism they ARE entitled to the fruits of their labour as they don't have a Capitalist extracting the surplus value of their labour thus there is no exploitation.
Quote from: ProletarianBanner on January 09, 2022, 03:14:59 PM No, it's just you are ignorant and do not understand that their economy is actually Capitalist.