One Question, One Response (aka - Stump the Apologist)

[aitm]

We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written.

The modern apologist likes to use this as some sort of reasonable excuse. However, we know that far from that line of thought, the majority of humans who lived and died well into the early 1900's did indeed think the sky was water. Though we know that history tells us many scholars surmised a type of hydrologic cycle it wasn't until the 1500's that someone started to put together a reasonable theory of it. None the less, that a few people or even a thousand, or ten thousand might understand the truth about it does not in the least excuse the fact that the babble was seen as fact for the vast majority of people and purported to be the whole truth and nutting but the truth. That we know now that it is bullshit, makes it even funnier that sad sacks like randy here laugh and tells us that is was never meant to be the truth even though he, you and I know that several billion dead thought it was very true, just like raping little girls was okay as well.

[marom1963]

I like aitm's line of thinking. So I withdraw my previous follow on question about the fate of all who existed before the first jesus world tour. I may want to reinstate it later, but you seem to be ignoring it so lets go down a different path for now.

We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written. To my knowledge, the scriptures were not written in color coded ink using certain colors to denote passages which are metaphor from those that are literal. Therefore, someone has to decide which is which. So who gets to decide? And why should I respect their authority any more than I do my own?

OK - per you - which parts are "literal" and which parts are "metaphor"?
Watch - the stuff that condemns eating pig is metaphor and the stuff that condemns queers is literal - anyone want to bet?

[Randy Carson]

Coming from a theist...

Why is this so surprising, reasonist?

Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.

Or do you just skim through the posts looking for opportunities to insert your quips?

Is there a question you wish to ask in this thread that you assert I have dodged elsewhere?

I DID start this thread with you in mind...

[aitm]

Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.

As is ten thousand other religions, the only difference being that christians and muslims had no problem murdering those who disagreed where so many other religions didn't care that much if someone believed otherwise…….must be proof that these gods are more righteous eh?

[Randy Carson]

OK - per you - which parts are "literal" and which parts are "metaphor"?
Watch - the stuff that condemns eating pig is metaphor and the stuff that condemns queers is literal - anyone want to bet?

There are 73 books in the Bible, so it's no small task to document all that.

It might be necessary to go line by line in some cases...

[Mike Cl]

The best case scenario? A person's who's studied everything about the bible to the point where he can quote the most obscure verse in the book.

The Pope's the best shot we have.

Have to disagree with you there, dtq123--the pope is one of the worst to decide.  Why?  Because he is totally vested in making the bible say exactly what he wants it to say.  That underlines everything he is about on a personal and professional level.  The best people to interpret the book are non-religious scholars.  Actually, anybody can do it if they spend enough time.  With the use of different translations, textual criticism, literatary criticism, concordances, an open mind; there are enough resources for you, for example, to figure out what the author was trying to say. 

[reasonist]

Why is this so surprising, reasonist?

Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.

Or do you just skim through the posts looking for opportunities to insert your quips?

Is there a question you wish to ask in this thread that you assert I have dodged elsewhere?

I DID start this thread with you in mind...

I am flattered!
Have you looked up the ancient mythologies I have mentioned many times now? Did you recognize your bible stories?

[21CIconoclast]

Randy,

Do you ever tell others that Jesus condoned the killing of children that curse their parents, or do you HIDE from this biblical axiom as most pseudo-christians do?

JESUS QUOTE: "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15:3)

I know that I am preaching to the choir with you because you know that the “command” that Jesus was referring too, and that was in effect at His time, and still is in effect today, was when Moses, inspired by Yahweh words, said: “Honor your father and mother, and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” (Exodus 21:17) 

“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5) Every word includes Jesus’ statement that children that curse their parents should be put to death.

What is the latest Catholic spin on this very disturbing passage about your ever loving and forgiving Jesus character?  I like to keep up with the latest "grasping for straws apologetics" that Christians use, so I am hoping that you can show us a new spin on this topic in the hopes of you saving face, okay?  Of course, your spin has to be biblically vouchsafed, otherwise it is just more hearsay, rhetoric, and wishful thinking that makes you the fool.

Randy, awaiting a cogent response this time, thanks.

[doorknob]

If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.

Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.

So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient.

If you have free will but the bible does not actually promote free will. Many specific times does it say god makes people evil and then punishes them for it. The most obvious and classic example is when god hardens phero's heart. He's interfering with free will directly.



I don't believe in free will btw I feel that is just the illusion of the human thought process. Only so many people exercise anything that could be compared to free will.

Most humans practice nee jerk reactions. Your environment and brain chemistry control you for the most part. You may think that your thoughts are your own but change the brain chemistry a bit and you will change a persons thought processes at least temporarily till they develop a tolerance to it. This is how mental illness and drug addiction work.

God does many ridiculous things in the bible. Some of it just to show off his power. The most ridiculous thing IMO is when he struck down the tower of bable (as if humans could reach heaven any way) and made different languages. Making one language makes more sense since the bible seems impossible to translate according to christians who change the translations based on their needs. An all knowing and perfect god would never do such a thing.   

Not that, that's how languages came about developed and separated over time. There never was any one language. That's the historical and factual way to explain different languages.

Also Jesus may have seemed profound to you but his so called teachings are nothing new. Many legends tales and religions had stories with the same teachings. It's nothing new. Even if you can agree whether it's profound or not. I say not after all "treat thy neighbor as you want to be treated" goes a step farther to say treat thy neighbor how they want to be treated. I would go even farther and say to treat them as they need to be treated. So you see not so profound now is it?

Jesus fails to be impressive when you do a little research and branch out to study other religions of the time in the area. You will see it is just one religion borrowing from the others. Nothing more impressive than that.

[Randy Carson]

Randy,

Do you ever tell others that Jesus condoned the killing of children that curse their parents, or do you HIDE from this biblical axiom as most pseudo-christians do?

JESUS QUOTE: "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15:3)

I know that I am preaching to the choir with you because you know that the “command” that Jesus was referring too, and that was in effect at His time, and still is in effect today, was when Moses, inspired by Yahweh words, said: “Honor your father and mother, and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” (Exodus 21:17) 

“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5) Every word includes Jesus’ statement that children that curse their parents should be put to death.

What is the latest Catholic spin on this very disturbing passage about your ever loving and forgiving Jesus character?  I like to keep up with the latest "grasping for straws apologetics" that Christians use, so I am hoping that you can show us a new spin on this topic in the hopes of you saving face, okay?  Of course, your spin has to be biblically vouchsafed, otherwise it is just more hearsay, rhetoric, and wishful thinking that makes you the fool.

Randy, awaiting a cogent response this time, thanks.

You would benefit from a careful reading of the Book of Hebrews; here are two key passages:

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€"now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The Mosaic Laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply under the New Covenant established by Jesus.

[reasonist]

"So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient."

So if I choose reason over faith, I get roasted forever. God doesn't like reasonable people then. OK. I can feel the love already...
If I exercise the very thing that your "creator" bestowed on us, rational, skeptical thought, I get incinerated for eternity. On the other hand blind gullibility is rewarded eternally.
Now you know why we are atheists.

[21CIconoclast]

You would benefit from a careful reading of the Book of Hebrews; here are two key passages:

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€"now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The Mosaic Laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply under the New Covenant established by Jesus.

Randy,

HELLO, ANYBODY HOME TODAY?

I have already schooled you on the biblical FACT that the Old Testament is to be followed today, period!

In the Sermon on the Mount, your alleged bible Jesus character makes it clear that He DID NOT come to destroy, rescind, nullify or abrogate the Old Testament Laws, all 613 of them: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18).

With these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws to the permanence of heaven and earth, GET IT???

Relative to the above stipulations, has heaven and earth passed away or disappeared yet as Jesus described? No, it has not because everyone has not seen the biblical proof herewith! “ “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare” (2 Peter 3:10)

Furthermore, the alleged bible Jesus stated; “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.” (John 15:10) Jesus can only keep His Father’s commands in the Old Testament that He obviously condones, which are the 613 Mosaic Laws. In your case as a Catholic, does your Jesus, as Yahweh, have the authority to usurp His Old Testament commands? NO, he does not! Do you see where I can't take this comedic biblical story? Huh?

Randy, barring your complete IGNORANCE of the scriptures, and showing everyone that your primitive bible contradicts itself, ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR in Matthew 5:18?!

[Baruch]

"Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event." ... not quite true.  The Church is historical, the supernatural mumbo jumbo is not.  And personally I doubt there was a historical Jesus, just a celestial Christ ... and I do think that John the Baptist and Paul are historical people.  Not that it matters.  I can't cross-examine John the Baptist, Paul or a historical Jesus.  I can talk to Catholics however, if they let me ;-)

[reasonist]

"Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event." ... not quite true.  The Church is historical, the supernatural mumbo jumbo is not.  And personally I doubt there was a historical Jesus, just a celestial Christ ... and I do think that John the Baptist and Paul are historical people.  Not that it matters.  I can't cross-examine John the Baptist, Paul or a historical Jesus.  I can talk to Catholics however, if they let me ;-)

Leonardo da Vinci thought so. John the Baptist was the real deal, not Jesus. Until he got served on a platter.

[Baruch]

Leonardo da Vinci thought so. John the Baptist was the real deal, not Jesus. Until he got served on a platter.

This is what happens when you tell truth to power.  Works he same everywhere, and for all time.