Post your funny pictures here!!! part Deux

[Hydra009]

Swamps are 100% cozier when you call 'em wetlands.

[Hydra009]

[Baruch]

Rocky Horror Weather Show? ;-)

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"One from the vaults."

[Hydra009]

[Baruch]

But the Intel was reversed.  Taranto based Italian Navy attacked because of Ultra information.  The US had Purple information on the coming Japanese attack, and let it happen anyway.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But the Intel was reversed.  Taranto based Italian Navy attacked because of Ultra information.  The US had Purple information on the coming Japanese attack, and let it happen anyway.

No. First, the Purple code was used by Gaimusho, not the military. Remember the rule, to spread information far and wide you have three main means:

Telephone
Telegraph
Tell a diplomat

Kaigun and Hyōbushō never blabbed about their plans. Yoshikawa Takeo and the 2nd Military attaché at Honolulu did observe the movements of the US Fleet, then based at Pearl Harbor, but as they knew nothing of the impending attack they couldn't give it away.

Now, if you're talking about the "Winds Code" you'll be happy to hear that "East Wind Rain" was never sent. That phrase was one of the list of code snippets that were prohibited to the regular broadcasters, men and women who liked not being in prison or dead and thus paid attention to the list without asking questions.

Clear enough?

[Baruch]

You don't believe that Churchill and FDR didn't know in advance (more or less)?  Even J Edgar Hoover knew (he was told by a double agent).  Didn't we read the Japanese diplomatic code even before Dec 7 1941?  Of course we can presume that none of that traffic (need to know) had the exact details of course.  But that wasn't necessary, what was necessary was to BS the US into WW II, to save FDR and Churchill and Stalin.

[Cassia]

You don't believe that Churchill and FDR didn't know in advance (more or less)?  Even J Edgar Hoover knew (he was told by a double agent).  Didn't we read the Japanese diplomatic code even before Dec 7 1941?  Of course we can presume that none of that traffic (need to know) had the exact details of course.  But that wasn't necessary, what was necessary was to BS the US into WW II, to save FDR and Churchill and Stalin.

Nah. You don't need a sneak attack, just an attack. Let them come, but have your forces ready, start the war off in decent shape. Everyone knew war with Japan was a given anyways. How stupid...all of the right wing conspiracy ass-wipes condemn the government for being inept, but somehow that very same government manages all these amazing secret operations, LOL.

[Baruch]

Nah. You don't need a sneak attack, just an attack. Let them come, but have your forces ready, start the war off in decent shape. Everyone knew war with Japan was a given anyways. How stupid...all of the right wing conspiracy ass-wipes condemn the government for being inept, but somehow that very same government manages all these amazing secret operations, LOL.

FDR was a racist, he thought that they couldn't attack Pearl Harbor because of distance, but would attack the Philippines, which they did the same day, and everyone forgets that.  They didn't have the imagination to read General Billy Mitchell's report from of 1923 or understand that torpedoes could be made to work in that shallow harbor.  They forget the complete incompetence of General McArthur and the Army/Navy leaders on Oahu.  It was estimated by General Marshall, that half of the peacetime officers would be incompetent in combat, getting themselves and their men killed.  He tried to shorten the learning curve, by using his little black book to promote younger officers over more senior ones, to maximize talent (aka Eisenhower).  You can never underestimate the stupidity of politicians, or the lack of "military" intelligence in the military.

The Battle of Kasserine Pass was an example, that my grandfather narrowly avoided (he was farther back in Algeria at the time) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YCrePXAwsY

Fortunately grandfather didn't get to Tunisia until General Patton was put in charge.  The losing America general at Kasserine Pass was lacking in imagination and practicality.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nah. You don't need a sneak attack, just an attack. Let them come, but have your forces ready, start the war off in decent shape. Everyone knew war with Japan was a given anyways. How stupid...all of the right wing conspiracy ass-wipes condemn the government for being inept, but somehow that very same government manages all these amazing secret operations, LOL.

No, no, no! FDR was a murderous bastard who willing to let thousands of Americans die in the Pacific so he could get into the war in Europe, something he was doing pretty good at already but that's irrelevant facts and shit.

IF we knew about the attack we could have had nearly five hundred anti-aircraft guns locked and loaded, a line of destroyers anchored east of Battleship Row (to spoil torpedo attacks) and all ships buttoned up tight to prevent flooding and capsizing.

BUT FDR wanted to start a war in the Pacific to get into a war in Europe and getting our primary battleline sunk sounded like a good idea.  If you're Baruch, that is.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nah. You don't need a sneak attack, just an attack. Let them come, but have your forces ready, start the war off in decent shape. Everyone knew war with Japan was a given anyways. How stupid...all of the right wing conspiracy ass-wipes condemn the government for being inept, but somehow that very same government manages all these amazing secret operations, LOL.

AND we have a rare glimpse in to the conspiracy nut's mind documented. Senator Gerald P. Nye was giving a speech to America First that day. He was in full mouth-foaming when an aid put a note reporting the attack on Pearl beside his notes on the podium. Nye continued his speech unabated. When he got backstage he said "He must have tricked them!" FDR HAD TO BE TO BLAME.

If you're not familiar with Nye he started an investigation into "foreign influence in Hollywood." He was only going to investigate British "influence", of course. The hearings collapsed with everyone on the panel admitted to having not seen a single movie under investigation. Nye adjourned the hearings in Sept. with it to reopen in January 1942. Of course...

[Baruch]

FDR didn't trick Japan.  They were aggressive as hell, so by cutting off their oil and steel, he was waving a red flag in front of them.  And the Japanese warned him that was causus belli (that an ordering them to pull out of China (minus Manchuria).  No, I don't think Evil FDR failed to properly defend Pearl Harbor, when he knew it was coming.  They knew the attack on the Philippines was coming, and MacArthur was a total failure on defense.  MacArthur was only good on offense (see Inchon).  Aggressive violence has its own logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_iNUXhrfw

Japan wasn't wrong in being hostile to the US and European colonialism, they were wrong in thinking that Koreans, Chinese etc were racially inferior.  This led Hitler into the immense error of dropping support for the Republic of China (who like him was anti-communist) but to join with the misleadingly similar Japanese, who who became a mousetrap for FDR.  And Hitler could still have won, if he had refused to honor the Tripartite Pact when Japan attacked the US (but attacking European colonials in Asia was OK), and if he had remained on the allied but defensive posture with the Soviet Union.

The foreign influence in Hollywood wasn't Axis, it was Jewish and pro-communist.  This became an issue again after WWII, and still is.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Japanese were murdering thousands of people every day in China. Nanking was the worst of the lot. The was one full month of rape, murder, and destruction, specifically ordered by the commanders, not some bunch of rogue troops, it was government policy.

The American public did not want us supplying the aggressors with war materials.

Taking the specific case of oil,

(1) the military was demanding the national reserves be brought up to the levels recommended.

(2) The American economy depended on oil to keep running.

(3) The British wanted every drop we could spare.

(4) The Japanese wanted fuel to bomb orphanages and hospitals.

It wasn't hard to sort out priorities.

Japan was also violating the Nine Power Treaty, which said that anyone who wanted to do business in China should speak with the Chinese, not anyone else, even heavily armed invaders. The Japanese set up a policy in the areas they conquered that required non-Chinese businesses to have a Japanese member on the board, one with veto power in situations that were vaguely characterized.

Should I keep going?

[Baruch]

Japan didn't care what would happen to China, Korea, Soviet Union, British Empire, French Empire, Dutch Empire or American Empire.  Why should they?  Are you assuming that the post-WWII UN POV is the correct one?  More victor myopia.

If we are talking about alternative history, the collective incompetence of all the leadership of every country 1914-1945 was chaos and ruin.  Too bad there was no foresight ;-)) So yes, one could think that human leadership (usually people with greater education too, except for Stalin, who was a pure thug) could do better.  Since people mature and die, to be replaced by yet another clueless generation, I can't see the present as being any different.  We would have to live a lot longer as individuals, and to value maturity much higher, to actually do better.