Chrestions For Quistians, Part 1 - "Are Demons Saved"?

[Satt]

I heard an interesting belief once that said it's possible that the human race IS that third of heaven that fell and this is our second chance to see where our hearts really are. That was based off the following scripture...

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."


Not that it matters, but it was different than most of the other BS I have heard.

[ApostateLois]

//http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/ Let us all pray for Satan's salvation.  [-o<

[bfiddy100]

You have to consider the author's intended audience.  Paul wasn't writing to demons.  Continuing with the consideration of the intended audience you also have to understand that at that time publicly confessing Jesus as Lord often resulted in persecution and death.  It was a little different than today when many people confess Jesus as Lord thinking they'll get a promotion at work or a new house, but would never do so if it meant being eaten alive by lions.  The saving faith that Paul is referring to is the one that confesses Jesus as Lord even if it means the person will be killed.

[WitchSabrina]

Satan is condemned because he rebelled with full knowledge of God's existence and his plan. I think the same applies for demons. They chose to rebel along with Satan, again out of full knowledge. So I do not believe they can be redeemed.

thats a very big bugaboo for me, for if satan or joe or mary louis ACTUALLY KNEW god and STILL told him in essence to "fuck off" something about ole god ain't all that very impressive.

Right?   I mean........  seriously........... ya gotta let that one just sink in.
 8-)
Oh yeah..........   that's the ticket.   :rollin:  derrr

[Old Seer]

Romans 10:9 - "...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Matthew 8:28, 29 - "And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men [though Mark says one] met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. And behold, they cried out, 'What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?'"

These demons in the Gadarenes seem to know what is going to happen - they think there is a time when they will be tormented, which must be after the resurrection. And they called him "son of God." So they believed "in their hearts," and confessed with their mouths - are they saved?

Demons are derived in the bible from ignorance of mental diseases/conditions or diseases in general. There are no Demons external of people. Demon denotes a negative mental state generally. A demon is one's bad/evil side.   :)

[Krampus]

I don't know much about the theology of angels, and some theologians simply don't believe in them. I'm a bit skeptical of them as well. There may be a spirit world, and some paranormalists claim they have evidence for it. But then, maybe not.

But here are some thoughts from a Catholic standpoint.

1) Angels are a class of creatures, spiritual by nature. They don't reproduce, they began to exist at the creation of the world and they won't die unless annihilated by God. Demon is just a label for an angel who chose to turn away from God. A demon is ontologically good, like anything God created, it is just its will which is evil.

2) In islam, angels don't have free will. In Christianity they do. But their eternal fate depends on a single choice they have to make for or against God. People can hesitate, give up belief, sin and then repent, but angels only have one trial. That's why demons cannot be saved now. They are doomed. Their sin, it is believed, is pride. More specifically, they loved themselves more than they loved God.

And here is a personal thought:

If Satan exists, he might have gone crazy and keeps messing things up even if it's pointless. Hitler was like that toward the end of the war, when it was becoming obvious that he would lose. He just kept killing people and destroying more of Europe. I don't know why God does not stop Satan though.

[FrankDK]

> If Satan exists, he might have gone crazy and keeps messing things up even if it's pointless. Hitler was like that toward the end of the war, when it was becoming obvious that he would lose. He just kept killing people and destroying more of Europe. I don't know why God does not stop Satan though.

My personal thought:

People invented gods to explain the existence of the universe and the condition of man therein.  They made god good, and when they had to admit there were things that were not good in the universe, they invented an evil god, which Christians call Satan, to explain the discrepancy.  Of course, religions explain the world the way it is (rather, the way it was seen to be when the religion was invented).  If I invented a religion that explained through charming and heart-warming stories, why the sky was green, it wouldn't become very popular (i.e., a "meme"), because the sky isn't green.

Frank

[Krampus]

My personal thought:

People invented gods to explain the existence of the universe and the condition of man therein.  They made god good, and when they had to admit there were things that were not good in the universe, they invented an evil god, which Christians call Satan, to explain the discrepancy.  Of course, religions explain the world the way it is (rather, the way it was seen to be when the religion was invented).  If I invented a religion that explained through charming and heart-warming stories, why the sky was green, it wouldn't become very popular (i.e., a "meme"), because the sky isn't green.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Satan is not a "god". Christians are not Manicheans.

And why didn't the Stoics, who believed in a supreme being, Zeus, invent an evil power beside Zeus to account for the suffering and the moral failings in the world?

There are many theistic philosophers who have tried to account for evil without resorting to demonic powers.  

Now, it might be that religion back then was less sophisticated than theistic philosophy, and that's why it invented Satan as a cheap theodicy.

[Plu]

And why didn't the Stoics, who believed in a supreme being, Zeus, invent an evil power beside Zeus to account for the suffering and the moral failings in the world?

Because Zeus was an arsehole, so that already accounted for all the suffering and moral failing in the world. The problem of evil only became a problem with the introduction of only a single god who was supposed to be a good guy.

[Krampus]

And why didn't the Stoics, who believed in a supreme being, Zeus, invent an evil power beside Zeus to account for the suffering and the moral failings in the world?

Because Zeus was an arsehole, so that already accounted for all the suffering and moral failing in the world. The problem of evil only became a problem with the introduction of only a single god who was supposed to be a good guy.

Beware! The Stoics called their supreme being Zeus, but it does not mean they endorsed Greek mythology. They worked out a philosophical concept of the deity. They did think that Zeus was good. They strongly believed in providence.

[Plu]

Ah, sorry. I didn't know that another bunch of those bloody theists recycled yet another name from ancient ages  :roll:
It's like they intentionally try to confuse people.

I thought you meant the Greek Zeus.

[Krampus]

Ah, sorry. I didn't know that another bunch of those bloody theists recycled yet another name from ancient ages  :roll:
It's like they intentionally try to confuse people.

I thought you meant the Greek Zeus.

Actually, the Stoics were Pantheists. They did not believe in creation ex nihilo by a distinct being.

[Plu]

I'm guessing there's a difference in meaning of terms, then. The Dutch word theist is a supercategory which includes pantheists and polytheists, as well as monotheists.

Checking on wikipedia I saw that the English word theist seems to specifically refer to monotheists? I meant the word as "people who believe in one or more gods".

[Krampus]

I'm guessing there's a difference in meaning of terms, then. The Dutch word theist is a supercategory which includes pantheists and polytheists, as well as monotheists.

Checking on wikipedia I saw that the English word theist seems to specifically refer to monotheists? I meant the word as "people who believe in one or more gods".

Well... usually, the word "theism" is used to speak of belief in a single, perfect creator God, distinct from the universe, and who looks after his creation.

[Plu]

I'll try to keep that in mind. Just another language discrepancy that I occasionally run into.