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Former Muslim Apologist

Started by Jalal_T, November 13, 2022, 04:16:56 PM

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Jalal_T

I am a former Muslim apologist who came to terms with an intellectual defeat of Islam after debating many Secularists in the UK. I failed to defend the Islamic arguments many times, so I surrendered (unconditional surrender) and admitted that and documented it by publishing a testimony and a number of articles which marked my permanent closure of my exist from Islam.

I wanted to do penance for what I had intended to do to Secularists once I had defeated them in debate -- humiliate them by publishing the results and use social media platforms, e-forums and journals. I planned for that in meticulous detail. However, my defeat was a lesson in itself and I never did get to carry out my intended humiliation of Secularists. Ironically, my plans turned on me. The case was considered a great win for Secularists and Atheists for the following reasons:

1. It was I who initiated the debate with the Secularists. Planned for that for around 20 years, was overconfident, thought that I was invincible and vowed to win.

2. It was fairly easy for my Secular opponents to prove me wrong using Islamic sources.

3. Unlike most encounters where both parties claim victory over each other. I admitted my full decisive defeat and the victory of my opponents which was acknowledged by them. Thus, the results of the debates  are objective and complete.   

4. It is an ex-Muslim who is going to explain the wrong ways of Islam and tell his story, not an atheist, or someone from another religion or even a fledged young Muslim who is newly introduced to the faith of Islam, but someone who studied the faith very well.

5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way.

Mike Cl

Quite the intro!  Welcome to this little band of heathens!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Jalal_T

Thank you! It is an honour for me to be a servant for the Atheist community.

Mr.Obvious

Welcome Jalal, the willingness to grow, and learn iw a most wonderful qnd applaudable trait.
Good for you.

Looking forward to your posts.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

ManUfan

I could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.


Mike Cl

Quote from: ManUfan on November 16, 2022, 06:37:39 PMI could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.


This point from his intro is different than any that I've read on this site: "5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way."

A little odd--could be he is pulling our leg, or it could be English is his second language.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Jalal_T

Quote from: ManUfan on November 16, 2022, 06:37:39 PMI could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.



Thanks for your comment. I understand that some people could have your point of view and think that post contains sarcasm but it does not, it actually points to an ex-Muslim case study.

Jalal_T

#7
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2022, 07:25:34 PMThis point from his intro is different than any that I've read on this site: "5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way."

A little odd--could be he is pulling our leg, or it could be English is his second language.


Thank you for your feedback. Yes, that's correct, English is my second language. Of course I am not trying to pull your leg, the game was over for me as Muslim apologist, it was an unconditional surrender to Secularists and Atheists who won the debate. There is no room for me to maneuver of take revenge by re-initiating a debate. Also, no way back for many reasons:

1. I fully admitted the defeat, thus, the credibility of any future attempts to defend Islam have been aborted beforehand. The result is final and objective. Why would potential converts to Islam listen to someone who was once defeated in debates with Secularists, admitted that and submitted a testimony?

2. The case was fully documented and was published to serve as a source material for freethinkers in the Muslim world. Thanks for the Internet, that never forgets anything!

3. FACT: if someone simply says he/she is an ex-Muslim then by virtue of that fact, he/she is an ex-Muslim according to Islamic Sharia (religious law). Sharia is simple!

4. It is "Haram" (forbidden by Islamic law) to say that you are not Muslim when you are.

It was a clear win for Secularists and Atheists.   


Mike Cl

Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 08:31:46 AMThank you for your feedback. Yes, that's correct, English is my second language. Of course I am not trying to pull your leg, the game was over for me as Muslim apologist, it was an unconditional surrender to Secularists and Atheists who won the debate. There is no room for me to maneuver of take revenge by re-initiating a debate. Also, no way back for many reasons:

1. I fully admitted the defeat, thus, the credibility of any future attempts to defend Islam have been aborted beforehand. The result is final and objective. Why would potential converts to Islam listen to someone who was once defeated in debates with Secularists, admitted that and submitted a testimony?

2. The case was fully documented and was published to serve as a source material for freethinkers in the Muslim world. Thanks for the Internet, that never forgets anything!

3. FACT: if someone simply says he/she is an ex-Muslim then by virtue of that fact, he/she is an ex-Muslim according to Islamic Sharia (religious law). Sharia is simple!

4. It is "Haram" (forbidden by Islamic law) to say that you are not Muslim when you are.

It was a clear win for Secularists and Atheists.   


Thanks for the reply.  We have had many, many what I call drive-by theists who post once or twice and are then gone.  I wasn't sure if you were not one of those.  Okay, so what do you think of the world of spirituality and religion now?  You are not a Muslim now, but do you still believe in a god?  I see spirituality as woo, and based on fiction.  What do you think? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Jalal_T

#9
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 08:53:24 AMThanks for the reply.  We have had many, many what I call drive-by theists who post once or twice and are then gone.  I wasn't sure if you were not one of those.  Okay, so what do you think of the world of spirituality and religion now?  You are not a Muslim now, but do you still believe in a god?  I see spirituality as woo, and based on fiction.  What do you think? 

I understand. I think of religion as culture now, and spirituality a kind of dream, like when you close your eyes and dream about something you wish to happen.

One point to note though is that as a Muslim apologist, spirituality gives the feeling that you are so strong. But as soon as you start arguments with non-Muslims you realize that it this overconfidence is nothing more than a large balloon filled with hot air, once it is deflated it is nothing more than a plastic bag. It is very discrediting in the eyes of Muslims to see a Muslim apologist submitting to Atheists, but this is what happened.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 09:19:47 AMI understand. I think of religion as culture now, and spirituality a kind of dream, like when you close your eyes and dream about something you wish to happen.

One point to note though is that as a Muslim apologist, spirituality gives the feeling that you are so strong. But as soon as you start arguments with non-Muslims you realize that it this overconfidence is nothing more than a large balloon filled with hot air, once it is deflated it is nothing more than a plastic bag. It is very discrediting in the eyes of Muslims to see a Muslim apologist submitting to Atheists, but this is what happened.
Yeah, I view spirituality much the same way.  BTW, I don't see that you are 'submitting' to atheists; I see you accepting the atheist thought that there are no gods.  Other than that, there is no atheist program; basically, each ashiest has their own view of what the world and life is; atheists do not walk in lock step. 

BTW, your English is very good.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Jalal_T

#11
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 10:28:39 AMYeah, I view spirituality much the same way.  BTW, I don't see that you are 'submitting' to atheists; I see you accepting the atheist thought that there are no gods.  Other than that, there is no atheist program; basically, each ashiest has their own view of what the world and life is; atheists do not walk in lock step. 

BTW, your English is very good.

Thank you for your reply and complement. Yes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit. Many of Muslim apologists rely on an approach that affects the psychology of the audience in order to convince them. For example, many Muslims go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled "The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart". Muslims usually show this tape to Secularists, Atheists and Christians as proof of Islam's superiority. Zakir Naik also put those who converted to Islam after debate on stage and exposed them in public. 

Secularists and Atheists whom I debated with are more rational and have your view point. It was sufficient for them that I declared that I used wrong logic in my arguments. But if Muslim apologists insist on accepting this as an acceptable defeat then let it be. Although I am not a famous scholar, I am a well-established Muslim apologist and the case is at least a counter example that Secularists and Atheists can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends. For this reason we published some articles that illustrated the case and showed how Islamic arguments can be refuted.   

Mike Cl

Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMThank you for your reply and complement. Yes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit. Many of Muslim apologists rely on an approach that affects the psychology of the audience in order to convince them. For example, many Muslims go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled "The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart". Muslims usually show this tape to Secularists, Atheists and Christians as proof of Islam's superiority. Zakir Naik also put those who converted to Islam after debate on stage and exposed them in public. 

Secularists and Atheists whom I debated with are more rational and have your view point. It was sufficient for them that I declared that I used wrong logic in my arguments. But if Muslim apologists insist on accepting this as an acceptable defeat then let it be. Although I am not a famous scholar, I am a well-established Muslim apologist and the case is at least a counter example that Secularists and Atheists can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends. For this reason we published some articles that illustrated the case and showed how Islamic arguments can be refuted.   
I don't like the term 'submitted' because that gives the theist the feeling that I am acknowledging he is superior in his thoughts. In fact, I don't think most theists 'think'--they simply 'believe' and strive for 'faith'.  Belief and faith has nothing to do with critical thinking and facts; thinking deals with facts.  Actually, I am astounded by you  because it is so very difficult to transcend one's beliefs and faith and embrace critical thinking.  You seem to have done that.  And you were not 'defeated'; you displayed the ability to leave belief behind and accept critical thinking--you were able to consider both sides and came to embrace that side that rejected beliefs and superstitions for what they are. 

   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Jalal_T

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 12:00:44 PMI don't like the term 'submitted' because that gives the theist the feeling that I am acknowledging he is superior in his thoughts. In fact, I don't think most theists 'think'--they simply 'believe' and strive for 'faith'.  Belief and faith has nothing to do with critical thinking and facts; thinking deals with facts.  Actually, I am astounded by you  because it is so very difficult to transcend one's beliefs and faith and embrace critical thinking.  You seem to have done that.  And you were not 'defeated'; you displayed the ability to leave belief behind and accept critical thinking--you were able to consider both sides and came to embrace that side that rejected beliefs and superstitions for what they are. 

   

Thanks, I respect your opinion. BTW, I currently work for some Secularist friends -- research/translation tasks in Arabic/English and typeset documents -- and will be happy to serve many Atheists. Please let me know if you are interested. This is of course free-of-cost work (i.e., nothing in return).

Not being able to understand Arabic is a major weakness for Western non-Muslims. They are limited to what has been translated into English. Absolutely devastating material, such as certain manuals of Fiqh (human understanding and practices of the Sharia (Islamic law)) has been translated to English, but the most embarrassing materials in the fields of Tafsir and Hadith are left untranslated. I can fill this gap. Also, I can explain the Dawah tricks/mentality and document that.

Hope to be a useful member. 
 

SGOS

Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMYes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit.
I could easily see "submitting to secularism" as just a second language stumble. Equally, it could be a Muslim (or any religious) perspective that one must submit to something, usually an ideology or suffer serious consequences.

Submission is absolutely not required of secularism, and certainly not of atheism.  Atheism is more like nothing or just a blank sheet of paper.  Instead of a heartfelt belief, there is just an absence of a specific belief.  Sure we have beliefs.  I believe my dog loves me, but that's just a belief, not something I submit to or even commit to. Beliefs that cannot be proven are not important, and some may even be dangerous.

The only reason atheists commit to debating with religions, is because religions are filled with logical fallacies of the highest order, and they try to impose nonsensical doctrines into our lives.  We argue with them in the lost hope that they will leave us alone, so that we can experience reality as it is and not what some prophet or the Pope wants it to be.