Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 16, 2023, 04:11:10 PMOK. First of all, you don't represent the majority. This is not an obscure, low budget indie sci-fi for  a fandom. This kind of movie is made for the general audience. Secondly, what kind of a realistic conflict/relief you expect them to build without that character? Where do you get the religious message in the movie?

You just want them to impose a certain point? So the movie should have preached a certain thing instead of giving the choices; provide a comparison and pointing out the rational one? Because it does point out the rational one. It's very obvious what's right or correct or wrong in the movie. And from multiple points. When we watch the movie, we the audience is the only side that knows what really happens, who is right and correct or wrong from the beginning till the end. 

Do you really think Sagan would agree to do something along the lines you wanted? The whole point is to inspire people to question things for themselves, not preaching them as religion does. Nobody can teach that to a person. They got to go there themselves.

World is not divided between religious suicide bombers and Arroways. They are both minorities. Very little ones. Most people are good, ordinary, and they just want to live their lives away from conflict. They do not desire to interrupt great scientific endeavours with violence to give some religious message. Most religious people are like Palmer Joss. 

By the way, there are various critical points in that movie, you couldn't find in the 21st century sci-fis.

I don't see the let down. I don't get where is the religious message in the movie other than if that's ever to happen in reality, the committee would include a dozen, unethical Palmer Josses and fucking Drumlins. So the movie has a good, complicated, realistic plot -if somewhat optimistic- but realistic because it is messy. We are messy. Everything about the theme the movie takes on is very messy. (Even the casting of the theologian is on point if you ask me.)

I'm curious though. What is so familiar to you about the belief/religion part represented in that movie?

I have never represented any majority, LOL. My problem with this story is very simple. I don't believe that (any) religion and science can intellectually coexist. A theme of this movie is that they can. I think this is dishonest. I don't need to apologize to any believer that I consider their god, traditions, or their supposedly religious derived morality to be pure bullshit. Placating and pandering to religion pisses me off and there was too much attention paid to it, IMHO. Does religion really deserve the respect it gets? And when the one guy says something along the lines of "well we don't even know if the aliens believe in god", all I thought was "how f'in stupid".

Someone please, go ahead and show me how (any) religion including all their scriptures, beliefs, and preconceptions can honestly live together with the scientific process, methods and known facts together in one brain? I'd really like to know.

It's easy, they lie to themselves, honestly. ;-)

Quote from: Cassia on May 16, 2023, 08:30:05 PMI have never represented any majority, LOL. My problem with this story is very simple. I don't believe that (any) religion and science can intellectually coexist. A theme of this movie is that they can. I think this is dishonest. I don't need to apologize to any believer that I consider their god, traditions, or their supposedly religious derived morality to be pure bullshit. Placating and pandering to religion pisses me off and there was too much attention paid to it, IMHO. Does religion really deserve the respect it gets? And when the one guy says something along the lines of "well we don't even know if the aliens believe in god", all I thought was "how f'in stupid".

Someone please, go ahead and show me how (any) religion including all their scriptures, beliefs, and preconceptions can honestly live together with the scientific process, methods and known facts together in one brain? I'd really like to know.

I've seen where people refer to science and religion as "non-overlapping magisteria", which just gives religion a bye, which I don't like.

Quote from: aitm on May 16, 2023, 04:10:17 PMMore funny pictures! Less jibber jabber! 🫣

Quote from: Cassia on May 16, 2023, 08:30:05 PMI have never represented any majority, LOL. My problem with this story is very simple. I don't believe that (any) religion and science can intellectually coexist. A theme of this movie is that they can. I think this is dishonest.

As far as I understand, you are confusing the form of expression used to point out 'these are two fundamentally different things and they don't mix' with 'see, they can co-exist' because they're put together without the audience being mollycoddled. Nobody intervenes and makes an explanation somewhere.

That expression is comparison. Comparison is the most basic way of criticism. It's actually the first step of any kind of criticism, doesn't matter how complicated it can get or be put in a higher context. It's there, that's the movie. They need to make that comparison and go through that door.   

QuoteI don't need to apologize to any believer that I consider their god, traditions, or their supposedly religious derived morality to be pure bullshit. Placating and pandering to religion pisses me off and there was too much attention paid to it, IMHO. Does religion really deserve the respect it gets? And when the one guy says something along the lines of "well we don't even know if the aliens believe in god", all I thought was "how f'in stupid".

Of course you don't need to. And the movie does the same. It just doesn't apologise to anyone. It just shows a picture and points out.

Yeah, it is fucking stupid. We all agree on that. And it is put there to show that. Furthermore, Rob Lowe's character's following lines after what you mentioned is about '...how the president will lose huge amount of votes...' if that angle is not considered. The main part of the disease.

So the movie actually is putting up a huge sign pointing out "See, something related to religion is not just stupid, it is politics, money, power. It has nothing to do with what is told in the telling. And the fucking establishment is built on this lie. Because that's what it is for. It's a fraud. It's a fucking hoax. It's about votes, money and power."

And the movie keeps repeating this by going different angles and degrees.

With Joss the sign says, "See, religion has nothing to with rationality. You cannot make rational decisions or use reason with it. Doesn't matter how good or honest you think your intentions are, you are just fooling yourself. It's fucking stupid. It's not real." 

With Drumlin the sign says, "See, you can lie, manipulate masses, people with religion the way you want. Steal everything from people. You can steal Success, development... and nobody's gonna do anything about it because it is fucking religion. Religion is a tool for corruption in every scale."

With the suicide bomber, the sign says "See, this shit goes to this length. People kill for this fucking stupid, meaningless shit. Religion kills."

There is a huge colourful banner flying on the movie reading "RELIGION IS FUCKING STUPID and IT KILLS."   

And that banner is flying opposed to some protagonist, who keeps saying 'this is fucking stupid' in different levels and terms, from the beginning through out the movie.

-She starts as a child by putting the priest in his place in her father's funeral when he says: "We are not meant to understand such things, but just accept them". She answers: "I should have kept medicine at the downstairs cabinet. I could have got to him sooner" meaning: "Go fuck yourself. It's stupid." Simple as this.   

-She doesn't give a damn about what people think of her passion, her understanding of scientific knowledge. Fights with super human tenacity. She never stops looking for funding. She sacrifices her happiness. She meets a man she likes, but she leaves his number so she wouldn't call him. That scene is out there to show something to young people. She is like a single minded machine going after what she believes.

-She is not afraid of anything, or anyone. She doesn't get manipulated. "World is what we make of it." Because it is. She is action, not talk. Every other character is just fucking talk.

-After the message is received, she calls everyone. She doesn't calculate how to get a beneficial position or make money or power from it. She speaks up to the high power people reminding that this message is for all humanity and for example, asks the armed personnel to wait outside. (Again very important point.)

-She never lies. She never manipulates. She doesn't need it. She is the only character in the movie who openly says: "I can't explain. I don't know..." when necessary. She is completely honest. Because she never gets out of the rational, scientific line of thinking. She knows otherwise, it is fucking stupid; it is empty. It's not real. 

She is the huge banner in the movie that drowns the fucking religious theme. The ideal scientist. Highly ethical and driven like mad. Her existence is a 'go fuck yourself' to any kind of religious theme. So there is a huge map pointing "This is good, follow this way" and "This is bad, don't go this way".

Without that religious theme, the movie doesn't exist. "This is fucking stupid" message doesn't exist.

That's why there is no indication of a possible co-existence of science and religion in the movie. There is an optimistic, realistic as it could be representation of the people, the human culture; the world we live in; what people think/brainwashed religion is and the contrasting reality of what it really is.   

QuoteSomeone please, go ahead and show me how (any) religion including all their scriptures, beliefs, and preconceptions can honestly live together with the scientific process, methods and known facts together in one brain? I'd really like to know.

You need to ask this to people who think this way. Nobody here has a thought along these lines, let alone defending it.

Well, you're often rational about things. But for some reason, you are being irrational about an obvious material given in this case. 

There is a universal context given here with barking notes, and that's why I'm reacting to this. Because it is reasonable to think every intelligent species; every civilisation in the universe must go through a religious phase, and hopefully get enlightened and then get above it before destroying themselves.

This is Carl Sagan's departure point. The progress of civilisations 'map' that leads to the search of extraterrestrial intelligence with the technology of radio telescopes starts with this progress. Science beating down religion. It's his crucial turning point. It's his main problem of inspiration. He knows the door is provoking a healthy skepticism. If preaching and imposition worked, religion would. It doesn't.

So the movie is designed with this concern. It's not a documentary. People who are aware of some things will go watch the documentary themselves. But that's the beauty and the power of science fiction, or any fiction when used good. You can show that door to the people, who never even imagined there could be one. But you can't go through that door for them.

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 16, 2023, 07:56:51 PMFor real, it is fantastic vantage point.  I don't know if it's just the time of day or what, but like half the amazing sunsets I've seen are when I'm ankle deep in last day's rainwater (at least, I hope that's rain) and I suddenly had to dodge an unexpectedly backing-up PT Cruiser like it's an irl quicktime event.

I agree it could be related to the time people generally get there. May be the general position of places they are built?

Tbh, there's very little point in learning cursive anymore.  Few people use it even on a monthly basis except maybe to sign documents.  It's like trying to teach kids how to use typewriters or slide rules.

I still learn/solve things much better with cursive. Probably because I'm a cursive generation. I don't even like calling it cursive. It sounds so cold and mechanic.

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 17, 2023, 09:56:43 AMTbh, there's very little point in learning cursive anymore.  Few people use it even on a monthly basis except maybe to sign documents.  It's like trying to teach kids how to use typewriters or slide rules.

Or condoms.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 17, 2023, 10:20:05 AMI still learn/solve things much better with cursive. Probably because I'm a cursive generation. I don't even like calling it cursive. It sounds so cold and mechanic.

You could call it Zaner-Bloser if you prefer.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 17, 2023, 09:29:46 AM

Damned signs are always blocking the scenery! 🤣

It's breaking my mind