Hi

[aitm]

Yeah, theists tend to thing that opinions from religious texts are facts.  You just can't help them get rational sometimes...

we can't even get them off the ledge of whack-a-doo.

[Arik]

Arik is just working you all up with nonsense arguments to waste your time.  He a religious troll.

Well, it look like you are an expert in religions.
I hope you don't mind if I ask you a simple question.

What is the difference between religion and spirituality?
Thanks.

[Mike Cl]

What is the difference between religion and spirituality?
Thanks.

Hierarchy.  Religion tends to be structured and spirituality tends to be not structure in any official way--more individual.  Otherwise, the same fiction applies.

[Arik]

Clearly you are trying to remake 'science' into your own special belief system.  Science is not magic nor another form of belief.  It is simply growing to understand one point at a time.  One creates and states a hypotheses and then tries to prove it.  If one can prove it in such a way that another person can recreate the experiment and get the same results, then you have a theory and have added to the knowledge of the world.  One does not need to have belief in science--look at the evidence.  BTW, if one cannot prove a hypothesis, then it remains just that, a hypothesis.  That is what you are pushing--a hypothesis.  You 'tested' it within yourself, which means I cannot replicate that particular experiment.  So, your beliefs are just that, an unproven hypothesis.  And all theist beliefs are the same. 

Just as I don't have to prove that fairies or gnomes or Bugs Bunny are not real--they are clearly fictional--I don't need to prove your god does not exist.  Offer me some proof for your claim that god is real. 

Theists seem to be really put off by 'I don't know'.  Yes your fav gland does secrete a hormone.  You suggest that beyond that we know little.  We sure don't know all that we need to know about that gland; but we do know much more than we did 100 or 1000 years ago.  And we will know more in the future; and we will learn by using the scientific method, not yoga nor meditation nor simply believing something. 

So far I have not been shown any proof of your god.  Personal stories simply don't count.

If you came to the conclusion that I do not like or believe in science (physical science) you certainly got it wrong.

My point is different.
What I am saying is that physical science can not possibly understand what is not physical.
It would be like to call a plumber when you instead need a carpenter or an electrician.
Can't you understand this simple point?

I love physical science but is pointless to rely on it when I instead need something that can NOT be delivered by this type of science.

[Cavebear]

Well, it look like you are an expert in religions.
I hope you don't mind if I ask you a simple question.

What is the difference between religion and spirituality?
Thanks.

1.  I don't mind. 

2.  Text. 

I thought it might help you if I kept things simple...

[Arik]

Hierarchy.  Religion tends to be structured and spirituality tends to be not structure in any official way--more individual.  Otherwise, the same fiction applies.

I am afraid that all this has very little to do with the differences Mike even if your point has got a tiny bit of truth.

The main differences are that while in religions the effort goes towards the external reality in spirituality the effort goes within, within our own consciousness and that is where God is according to spirituality.
Religions ask God for the daily bread.
For them God is an external reality that at the due time will grant them the paradise.
For a spiritualist to ask God for the daily bread is an absolute taunting-mockery.
It would be like to ask your physical father the daily bread as if your father wouldn't know that you need food.
In the beginning also Hinduism and Buddhism were following spirituality but now most is lost in a circus of hundreds of Gods and meaningless rituals.

In reality even the first Christians were following spirituality but the priests of the past screwed everything up and now even Christianity follow a circus full of saints and meaningless rituals.

I don't follow an external God or meaningless rituals so I think that to call me RELIGIOUS TROLL is quite improper.

[Arik]

It is a mistake, in this culture to identify "science" as "knowledge" ... only most recent version of the scientific method can be meant.  Otherwise there is unnecessary semantic posturing.  Arik - please explain your epistemology.

It is all very very simple Baruch.

Spirituality is not an external search but rather internal.
Externally there is only the physical-material reality which can not possibly solve the main human problem which is to find peace of mind and eternal and infinite bliss.
As I already point out in previous posts this FINITE reality is unable to solve the main human problem that is why only spirituality or the search for infinite bliss can accomplish this so my main work goes in that way although I don't forget that I still live in this physical-material reality.

[Cavebear]

If you came to the conclusion that I do not like or believe in science (physical science) you certainly got it wrong.

My point is different.
What I am saying is that physical science can not possibly understand what is not physical.
It would be like to call a plumber when you instead need a carpenter or an electrician.
Can't you understand this simple point?

I love physical science but is pointless to rely on it when I instead need something that can NOT be delivered by this type of science.

Originally, people feared storms and tides and rains etc.  And the first thought of "If I don't understand it, it must be that a SOMETHING ALL POWERFUL did it). 

Which is of course, from what we know now, really ignorant (ignorance being the lack of knowledge).

Then, some screwy idiot who didn't want to work for a living, discovered he could organize all the fears and get food in return for "man-splaining" that stuff.

And decided that it was good...

Then some former helper challenged him and he had to UP his game.  They gods were not just gods, they all had specific duties,  And them others decided there were gods for damn near everything. 

I assume you can see where this is going...

[Baruch]

It is all very very simple Baruch.

Spirituality is not an external search but rather internal.
Externally there is only the physical-material reality which can not possibly solve the main human problem which is to find peace of mind and eternal and infinite bliss.
As I already point out in previous posts this FINITE reality is unable to solve the main human problem that is why only spirituality or the search for infinite bliss can accomplish this so my main work goes in that way although I don't forget that I still live in this physical-material reality.

1. Materialists can't admit to any metaphysics because it is subjective not objective.  Hence my question regarding epistemology.
2. Materialists can't admit that science can't provide them with every material thing they want.  They don't value the non-material e.g. love.
3. Materialists can't admit to the personal, beyond their own egos.  This is their strongest point IMHO.

Reality for me is both physical and metaphysical.  Human needs are both material and immaterial.  G-d/self is both internal and external, personal and impersonal.  So I get your points about metaphysics and the internal.  But almost no one else here will.

[Arik]

Originally, people feared storms and tides and rains etc.  And the first thought of "If I don't understand it, it must be that a SOMETHING ALL POWERFUL did it). 

Which is of course, from what we know now, really ignorant (ignorance being the lack of knowledge).

Then, some screwy idiot who didn't want to work for a living, discovered he could organize all the fears and get food in return for "man-splaining" that stuff.

And decided that it was good...

Then some former helper challenged him and he had to UP his game.  They gods were not just gods, they all had specific duties,  And them others decided there were gods for damn near everything. 

I assume you can see where this is going...

When the level or degree of consciousness is not developed enough is obvious that people think in that way, don't forget however that when the degree of consciousness get more and more developed people change course and start thinking in a different way and that is just what I was saying some posts ago when I was pointing out that when people see no exit out this finite materialistic dimension they will surely start working towards the infinite reality which is also called spirituality.

Things move and change Cavebear so sooner or later people will change course.
The smart one for the better the fools for the worse.

[Baruch]

When the level or degree of consciousness is not developed enough is obvious that people think in that way, don't forget however that when the degree of consciousness get more and more developed people change course and start thinking in a different way and that is just what I was saying some posts ago when I was pointing out that when people see no exit out this finite materialistic dimension they will surely start working towards the infinite reality which is also called spirituality.

Things move and change Cavebear so sooner or later people will change course.
The smart one for the better the fools for the worse.

Individual human development is slow and uncertain.  A person is rarely enlightened (spiritually) in one lifetime, hence the idea that it can only be achieved after many reincarnations.  I have changed over time, but it took a long time, a lot of negative experiences.  We learn more from failure than from success.

[Cavebear]

When the level or degree of consciousness is not developed enough is obvious that people think in that way, don't forget however that when the degree of consciousness get more and more developed people change course and start thinking in a different way and that is just what I was saying some posts ago when I was pointing out that when people see no exit out this finite materialistic dimension they will surely start working towards the infinite reality which is also called spirituality.

Things move and change Cavebear so sooner or later people will change course.
The smart one for the better the fools for the worse.

Consciousness is not the basis of religious thought.  Lack of it is. 

Throughout history, the progression of human understanding has been from superstition to factual understanding of nature.  Religion is the opposite, kicking and screaming all the way.  I don't really care how ignorant you are of facts or dealing with facts, as we learn more about nature every day, religion or spirituality (same thing really) become less and less relevant. 

My personal opinion is that superstitious people of all sorts (call it what you wish) are basically all the same. 

[Baruch]

But sometimes you have to let the donkey have the carrot.  At least Buddha claims this.

[Unbeliever]

As I already point out in previous posts this FINITE reality is unable to solve the main human problem

What is it you see as "the main human problem"?

[Mike Cl]

If you came to the conclusion that I do not like or believe in science (physical science) you certainly got it wrong.

My point is different.
What I am saying is that physical science can not possibly understand what is not physical.
It would be like to call a plumber when you instead need a carpenter or an electrician.
Can't you understand this simple point?

I love physical science but is pointless to rely on it when I instead need something that can NOT be delivered by this type of science.

Yes, I do understand your point--I have from the beginning.  I would imagine you would say that things like emotions and consciousness are not physical and cannot be explained by science. 

Wrong.  Everything--EVERYTHING--originates from a physical cause.  There is no supernatural.  There is no spiritual.  Emotions have their origins from chemicals.  Everything does.  This is the simple point you have a problem with--you simply don't want to understand this simple fact.  You simply want to believe otherwise.  Feel free to do so, but your beliefs are a pure fiction.