If there is no God. Then someone explain life.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If you are sufficient cynical, nothing and nobody.  But many worship themselves.

I know for a fact that I'm mortal, and nobody would worship me. Much to my relief, I might add.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Often wondered.  What does 'worship' entail?

You give me all your money.

[Munch]

No, wolverines ;-)  Cute and cuddly.

Can say that again!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can say that again!

No, wolverines ;-)  Cute and cuddly.

[trdsf]

No, wolverines ;-)  Cute and cuddly.

And victimized by buckeyes.  :D

[trdsf]

I want to posit a theory, to wit: religion aside, the reason some find the concept of abiogenesis difficult to grasp is because they find the titanic numbers involved difficult to grasp.  I mean, when you consider the unspeakably vast number of simple organic molecules available in the pre-biotic oceans of the early Earth being mixed and combined and broken apart by heat and UV radiation and interactions with other molecules every second, and then give it a couple hundred million years to percolate, it seems almost inevitable that something self-replicating would turn up in there somewhere, just by accident/probability.  And once you have something self-replicating -- even if it's a perfect self-replicator, mutations happen by random encounters with radiation and mutagenic molecules -- evolution immediately takes over.

And the same, of course, applies to evolution: give an advanced monkey a week and you still have an advanced monkey.  Give it a million years to putter around, it should be no surprise that you end up with a primitive human, and probably a couple different versions of them.  But we find a million years just as hard to grasp as a thousand, or a hundred, so many think that if we can't see it happening, it's not happening.

Funny how those same ones often think that that means that something else you can't see happening must exist.

[Mike Cl]

I want to posit a theory, to wit: religion aside, the reason some find the concept of abiogenesis difficult to grasp is because they find the titanic numbers involved difficult to grasp.  I mean, when you consider the unspeakably vast number of simple organic molecules available in the pre-biotic oceans of the early Earth being mixed and combined and broken apart by heat and UV radiation and interactions with other molecules every second, and then give it a couple hundred million years to percolate, it seems almost inevitable that something self-replicating would turn up in there somewhere, just by accident/probability.  And once you have something self-replicating -- even if it's a perfect self-replicator, mutations happen by random encounters with radiation and mutagenic molecules -- evolution immediately takes over.

And the same, of course, applies to evolution: give an advanced monkey a week and you still have an advanced monkey.  Give it a million years to putter around, it should be no surprise that you end up with a primitive human, and probably a couple different versions of them.  But we find a million years just as hard to grasp as a thousand, or a hundred, so many think that if we can't see it happening, it's not happening.

Funny how those same ones often think that that means that something else you can't see happening must exist.

Would that not be called a hypothesis?  In any case, I've often thought the exact same thing.  The huge number of opportunities makes it impossible not to happen.  The average human life (in years) is so very, very tiny compared to the life of the universe, that it is difficult for most to see beyond those tiny number of years.  Evolution is so slow that it just does not compute for the average person. 

[SGOS]

Evolution is so slow that it just does not compute for the average person. 

It seems that way, but the concept of long time frames and huge numbers should not be that hard to grasp, even for Christians who are constantly going on about eternity, anyway.  I do realize that thinking long term doesn't seem to be an evolved trait in many.

The average human life (in years) is so very, very tiny compared to the life of the universe, that it is difficult for most to see beyond those tiny number of years. 

I'm pretty sure this carries some weight in arguments against evolution, at least in the minds of those who are making the arguments, but a good part of it is just good old fashion human stubbornness.  For some, abiogenesis and  evolution are the creation of demons to weaken our faith in God.  This must be resisted at all costs because saving your soul is more important than understanding.  Think about it.  If you have only two choices, to burn forever in Hell Fire, or turn your back on the demon world at any cost, which would be the better choice?  Don't even entertain an evil idea, or doubt will creep into your mind, and you will burn forever in the fires of Hell.  Your ignorance must be guarded with great care.  A moment's loss of vigilance can lead to a disaster of proportions beyond comprehension.  Any attempt to gain understanding outside the Bible itself will cost you dearly.

[trdsf]

It seems that way, but the concept of long time frames and huge numbers should not be that hard to grasp, even for Christians who are constantly going on about eternity, anyway.  I do realize that thinking long term doesn't seem to be an evolved trait in many.

Considering nowadays 'long term planning' means thinking about what you'll have for lunch when it's 11:30 in the morning, and most businesses would rather make a nickel today than a dollar tomorrow.

This is why I'm fascinated by projects like The Long Now.

[Mike Cl]

It seems that way, but the concept of long time frames and huge numbers should not be that hard to grasp, even for Christians who are constantly going on about eternity, anyway.  I do realize that thinking long term doesn't seem to be an evolved trait in many.


I'm pretty sure this carries some weight in arguments against evolution, at least in the minds of those who are making the arguments, but a good part of it is just good old fashion human stubbornness.  For some, abiogenesis and  evolution are the creation of demons to weaken our faith in God.  This must be resisted at all costs because saving your soul is more important than understanding.  Think about it.  If you have only two choices, to burn forever in Hell Fire, or turn your back on the demon world at any cost, which would be the better choice?  Don't even entertain an evil idea, or doubt will creep into your mind, and you will burn forever in the fires of Hell.  Your ignorance must be guarded with great care.  A moment's loss of vigilance can lead to a disaster of proportions beyond comprehension.  Any attempt to gain understanding outside the Bible itself will cost you dearly.

Yeah, I pretty much agree.  In this statement--I do realize that thinking long term doesn't seem to be an evolved trait in many.--change 'thinking' to believing and that is the problem.  Christians and thinking just don't go together.

You nailed it--doubt; don't ever have it.  And it can only come when one stops 'believing' and start thinking.

[Baruch]

Often wondered.  What does 'worship' entail?

You were religious once?  Have you forgotten already?

There are few people if any, who can grasp a number higher than 10.  The human mind can only hold 7+ or - 3 things at a time.  We are not computers or even calculators.  My 4 function calculator from 1973 is far superior to me ... if I had a fetish for technology I would have worshipped it instead.

Big numbers vs low probability?  Really?  Same argument as omnipotent god moving an immovable object.  That is fallacy territory.  If big numbers (of chances at dice) work for you, then you can beat the casino eventually.  But in fact, that isn't the case.  If the rate of increase in dice throws is smaller than the rate of increase in low odds ... then you will never catch up.  Usually that is the case, unless you fix the game.

[Mike Cl]

You were religious once?  Have you forgotten already?

There are few people if any, who can grasp a number higher than 10.  The human mind can only hold 7+ or - 3 things at a time.  We are not computers or even calculators.  My 4 function calculator from 1973 is far superior to me ... if I had a fetish for technology I would have worshipped it instead.

Big numbers vs low probability?  Really?  Same argument as omnipotent god moving an immovable object.  That is fallacy territory.  If big numbers (of chances at dice) work for you, then you can beat the casino eventually.  But in fact, that isn't the case.  If the rate of increase in dice throws is smaller than the rate of increase in low odds ... then you will never catch up.  Usually that is the case, unless you fix the game.

Never been religious.  I hate th ritual and find it not only empty but meaningless (for me), as well.  I guess at one time I referred to myself as spiritual--but never religious.  You did not answer the question for me--what does it mean to worship?  I don't think I ever worshiped anything; not even baseball, ice cream, or computer games.  But I love the hell out of all three.  (Among others, of course)  So, if I worshiped ice cream, what would I do?  Put ice cream pictures everywhere?  Beg it for stuff?  Preach the values of ice cream?  What???

[Baruch]

Never been religious.  I hate th ritual and find it not only empty but meaningless (for me), as well.  I guess at one time I referred to myself as spiritual--but never religious.  You did not answer the question for me--what does it mean to worship?  I don't think I ever worshiped anything; not even baseball, ice cream, or computer games.  But I love the hell out of all three.  (Among others, of course)  So, if I worshiped ice cream, what would I do?  Put ice cream pictures everywhere?  Beg it for stuff?  Preach the values of ice cream?  What???

You answered your own question.  Yes, you love the hell out of X ... so that makes you a Satan worshipper ;-)

[SGOS]

what does it mean to worship? 

For me, it involved acting pious, trying to concentrate on the sermon, a good deal of fidgeting, and self reprisal for constantly letting my mind wander.  I would pull my mind back to the activity and feel like I was doing it right again, but all of a sudden I would be thinking about playing touch football or something with my friends, but I was never aware of drifting from my duty into my independent reverie.  I would suddenly just find myself off topic and wonder how long I had been off topic.  I never managed to make contact with the unseen spirit world that everyone told me was out there.  I  wondered a lot about if it might be fake during the worshipping process.  I never actually felt a feeling of worshipping, and what such a feeling would be like, I couldn't say.  It was more like I was following along and doing the alternate readings in the service, and singing these songs.  People around me would be singing, but unless it was a Christmas carol, I was never familiar with the melody, so I would read the words in the hymnal and make my voice go higher and lower, but not too loud so that no one would know I didn't know the tune.

[Baruch]

Feeling numinous in congregation setting doesn't happen for everyone.  It only happens for me in recent times, if I am free to worship, not constrained by the rules or social pressure ... but then I am charismatic.  Nature lovers feel numinous, but they don't label it as religious (but I disagree with their self identity).

I do know someone who would experience paranormal things during congregational worship, but they were probably crazy ;-)