Very insightful article.
This Election Marks the End of America's Racial Détente
http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/14/election-marks-end-americas-racial-detente/
... Within the past few years, as privilege theory took hold, many whites began to think that no matter what they did they would be called racist, because, in fact, that was happening. Previously there were rules. They shifted at times, but if adhered to they largely protected one from the charge of racism. It’s like the Morrissey lyric: “is evil just something you are, or something you do.†Under the détente, racism was something you did; under privilege theory it is something you are.
That shift, from carefully directed accusations of racism for direct actions to more general charges of unconscious racism, took away the carrot for whites. Worse, it led to a defensiveness and feeling of victimization that make today’s whites in many ways much more tribal than they were 30 years ago. White people are constantly told to examine their whiteness, not to think of themselves as racially neutral. That they did, but the result was not introspection that led to reconciliation, it was a decision that white people have just as much right to think of themselves as a special interest group as anyone else. ...
The US has no leader like Nelson Mandela .. .and no Truth & Reconciliation commission. Colored folks who still think they have to aspire to Whiteness ... aren't free people. Cornel West is vastly superior to Barak Obama.
There's also the fact that making it a trait rather than a behavior slams the door shut on being able to do anything about it. If you're doing something that's wrong, you can stop doing that thing. If you ARE something that's wrong, there's really no solution to that.
By asserting that all white people are inherently racist, white people have essentially been freed of any obligation to think about or be concerned about racism. After all, white people will always be white, and therefore always be racist. No matter what. If there's no solution to a problem, why work on it?
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 15, 2016, 01:21:59 PM
There's also the fact that making it a trait rather than a behavior slams the door shut on being able to do anything about it. If you're doing something that's wrong, you can stop doing that thing. If you ARE something that's wrong, there's really no solution to that.
By asserting that all white people are inherently racist, white people have essentially been freed of any obligation to think about or be concerned about racism. After all, white people will always be white, and therefore always be racist. No matter what. If there's no solution to a problem, why work on it?
There were particular historical injustices in American history, and they weren't color neutral. But the shit show that is contemporary African-American life (if you aren't collegiate) is worthy of being revenged, not just resisted. Collective revenge isn't a fiction, nor was collective victimizing.
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 15, 2016, 01:21:59 PM
There's also the fact that making it a trait rather than a behavior slams the door shut on being able to do anything about it. If you're doing something that's wrong, you can stop doing that thing. If you ARE something that's wrong, there's really no solution to that.
By asserting that all white people are inherently racist, white people have essentially been freed of any obligation to think about or be concerned about racism. After all, white people will always be white, and therefore always be racist. No matter what. If there's no solution to a problem, why work on it?
How do you suppose we address racism besides simply ignoring it for a few generations?
Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 16, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
How do you suppose we address racism besides simply ignoring it for a few generations?
Middle Class Hypocrisy ... born 1968 ... died 2016. It isn't just race, it is class (oh no, we don't have that in the US).
Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 16, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
How do you suppose we address racism besides simply ignoring it for a few generations?
We don't. There is no other way. Deep racial divide takes time to mend. Just like a wound, while its mending its going to continue to hurt. But you know enough not to pick at a wound because that will just make it heal slower. What we did to the wound that is racism in this country is rip the bandage off and furiously punch it as hard as we could with the bewildering expectation that doing so would somehow make it better faster.
By asserting that racism is absolutely everywhere, that white people are universally and unavoidably racist, the issue of racism was inflated well beyond its reality. At the same time, it was converted into an issue with no solution.
What do people do when faced with a huge problem that they can't actually do anything about? They ignore it. They learn to live with it. They accept it because there's no other option. By asserting that white people are all racist and theres nothing that can be done to change that, liberals created a situation in which white people were free to stop caring about racism.
And so thats what they did. And because of that Donald Trump could say all the racist and sexist shit he wanted without being automatically disqualified. On the contrary, it boosted his chances of winning.
The only way to properly heal a racial divide in america is TIME. Lots and lots of time. A long ass period of uninterrupted stability in which people steadily shed racial bias. That means that members of minoritie alive today would probably never see the day when racism was truly gone. Maybe even their kids wouldn't see it. Some people couldn't accept this so they tried to force the issue and it backfired. Now we have to start over again from square one, and we cant even do THAT until the current racial climate changed, which could take years.
Race relations in this country were dealt a devestating blow. That blow was delivered by the very people trying to improve them.
No, by the people cynically taking advantage of African-American voters ... but then this was the D party ... the party of Jefferson Davis. What is more tragic is the failure of Reconstruction, and the abandonment of the Free Black to jim Crow by the R party.
"Racist" is what you are AND do. You can't be one without the other. It is a whole in mind and act.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2016, 06:31:34 AM
"Racist" is what you are AND do. You can't be one without the other. It is a whole in mind and act.
Not really the point. The point was that an environment was created in which no white person wasn't racist.
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 17, 2016, 08:01:33 AM
Not really the point. The point was that an environment was created in which no white person wasn't racist.
My point ... as posted before ... of course White people are racist, everyone is (as in bigoted, not as in historical racism). What is annoying is non-Whites pretending they aren't. Once we all acknowledge we are assholes ... we might be able to move on.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2016, 06:31:34 AM
"Racist" is what you are AND do. You can't be one without the other. It is a whole in mind and act.
Except it's not. You can do racist things without being racist, if you live in a society where those behaviours are the norm. "Being" a racist implies that there is rationalization and reason behind your actions, whereas there are many "racist" things we all do without a thought about it.
Quote from: Baruch on November 17, 2016, 12:59:17 PM
My point ... as posted before ... of course White people are racist, everyone is (as in bigoted, not as in historical racism). What is annoying is non-Whites pretending they aren't. Once we all acknowledge we are assholes ... we might be able to move on.
It has been my experience that racism knows no boundaries. All hues of skin color can be (and some are) racist.
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 17, 2016, 08:01:33 AM
Not really the point. The point was that an environment was created in which no white person wasn't racist.
Except that's pretty much only at the fringes of SJWism. In mainstream society, it's not like that.
I mean to claim that white people are born racist implies that racism is in our genes, which is, well, racist.
Racism is learned. Not everyone learns it, thankfully.
Quote from: Atheon on November 17, 2016, 03:26:07 PM
Except that's pretty much only at the fringes of SJWism. In mainstream society, it's not like that.
I mean to claim that white people are born racist implies that racism is in our genes, which is, well, racist.
Racism is learned. Not everyone learns it, thankfully.
But it's not on the fringe. This last decade, especially, it has been everywhere. Republicans lived the first half of the last 8 years in constant fear of being called racists before they finally just said, "Fuck it!", and it started LONG before that. In 1992 Ross Perot's presidential bid and career was instantly killed when he said, "...you people..." to a room full of black people instead of saying, "African-Americans", as was expected of you at the time. And then there's the term "African-American", which the left started demanding we use in the '90s in lieu of any other benign term because people were even then hyper-sensitive about what label to use, and if you didn't use that label every time, you were a racist.
I would like to agree with you that this is just a fringe thing, but it's not and it hasn't been for a long time. For decades now it has only taken a slip of the tongue to become labeled racist or bigoted or misogynistic. I don't believe that transgender people should have the freedom to choose whichever restroom they are "more comfortable in" for a couple of reasons, chief among them being that because the current system no longer reflects our understanding of gender I would rather re-work the system. It's not that I don't care about their plight, it's that I see a flawed system and want to FIX the system, not apply a problematic, poorly defined patch which is GUARANTEED to cause problems. I want to fix it and what I want is actually more comprehensive, actually addressing the root issue that the idea that gender is binary and absolute is outdated and needs to go. But the first gut-reaction I get when I express an opinion which is not, "Transgender people are absolutely right and I am with them 100% and on board with whatever it is they want" is that I'm bigoted and against transgender rights, which is absolutely not the case. I'm actually FURTHER LEFT on the issue than transgender people, but my opinion is different and therefore I hate transgender people. The left even attacks ITSELF for not holding the right opinion.
And this isn't a new thing, nor is it limited specifically to race. Nonsensei is right, we do live in an environment where we not only have to be hyper-sensitive to race issues, in many circles we have to be openly ashamed of being born white. If you don't think any of this is true, just look at who our next president is going to be. He could speak his mind and when someone called him racist, just shrug it off like it didn't bother him, and that appealed to a shitload of people. So many that it was enough to get him elected, and that is because of the issue Nonsensei is talking about.
There was never a "racial detante". Obama was just a very skilled politician with a good style and message. I didn't vote for him because he was black; I voted for him because he was aspirational, rational, and thoughtful. I thought he was simply the best candidate. I wish he could have had a 3rd term. He was the best person of any sort, any demographic, any category. I was happier with him as President than any other President in my lifetime.
I'm not arguing about what he did or didn't do (though I could); I'm just saying that he was more like me in manner and thought than anyone else seeking the job. And I admire and respect him.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 05:44:30 AM
There was never a "racial detante". Obama was just a very skilled politician with a good style and message. I didn't vote for him because he was black; I voted for him because he was aspirational, rational, and thoughtful. I thought he was simply the best candidate. I wish he could have had a 3rd term. He was the best person of any sort, any demographic, any category. I was happier with him as President than any other President in my lifetime.
I'm not arguing about what he did or didn't do (though I could); I'm just saying that he was more like me in manner and thought than anyone else seeking the job. And I admire and respect him.
He was my kind of president, as well.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 17, 2016, 01:03:12 PM
Except it's not. You can do racist things without being racist, if you live in a society where those behaviours are the norm. "Being" a racist implies that there is rationalization and reason behind your actions, whereas there are many "racist" things we all do without a thought about it.
I've long distinguished between two types of racism: vicious racism and racism from ignorance. When grandma says "He's a very articulate colored person", she's displaying the latter. In her day, such a statement may have been considered very progressive, and no harm was intended. But when grandpa says "Those n*****s should be strung up from the nearest tree," that's vicious racism.
In this case, grandma is not a racist, but she said something considered racist today. Grandpa, however, is a racist.
Quote from: Atheon on December 02, 2016, 09:02:08 AM
I've long distinguished between two types of racism: vicious racism and racism from ignorance. When grandma says "He's a very articulate colored person", she's displaying the latter. In her day, such a statement may have been considered very progressive, and no harm was intended. But when grandpa says "Those n*****s should be strung up from the nearest tree," that's vicious racism.
In this case, grandma is not a racist, but she said something considered racist today. Grandpa, however, is a racist.
I disagree. Gramma was racist and didn't know she was. But she was...
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 15, 2016, 01:21:59 PM
There's also the fact that making it a trait rather than a behavior slams the door shut on being able to do anything about it. If you're doing something that's wrong, you can stop doing that thing. If you ARE something that's wrong, there's really no solution to that.
By asserting that all white people are inherently racist, white people have essentially been freed of any obligation to think about or be concerned about racism. After all, white people will always be white, and therefore always be racist. No matter what. If there's no solution to a problem, why work on it?
Wow, what a righteous, pile of demagoguery bullshit written and liked by a bunch of white trash. 'Does it ever get cold on moral high ground', sweety? It doesn't, when it is not about you, does it?
You are talking as if white people actually cared or tried to do something about racism in their country before, but suddenly got their heart broken and stopped caring when they were called something bad. They have actually never cared if they are being called racist or not. They just didn't give a fuck, they didn't even know if racism was still a real, hot, ugly issue in their country before social media wars against SJW began. And it became a personal issue for them when somebody translated the 'the system is inherently racist' to 'Fuck you, you are all racists'.
Just so you know, this is not about 99 % of white Americans who actually never cared or got involved with anything about some issue -ANY issue- in their country, being called racists, but a bunch stupid white ass social media scum who made money from selling people like you a well designed product of your identity to match your 6 year old ego for years now. Yes, it's that easy and that simple. Manipulating American society; a narcissistic society that is completely involved with 'me' is as easy as slapping a child. This time the child smashed his head on the wall though.
Your culture is inherently racist. The system is inherently racist head to toe. And you are trying to punish people who expressed this truth out loud by 'it is your fault, you called us racists'. Trump has won because Trump is America. A religious and racist country. The rest of the white people is a very little minority living in actual diverse social environments in big cities and noone else actually cares about any of these issues other than jerking off to their own group.
In this case a group of white men who constantly demonise women, black people or anyone who is out of the white -right- ethnic group and right gender is jacked about being called racists and build a 'reasoning' on racist issue 'getting snubbed' because black people called all white people racists (!).
You know what, I actually started to get why America keeps ending up in certain administrations, Nonsensei. Because there is literally nothing in the country with people. Nothing. You people are ignorant as fuck, dumb as soup and narcissistic as an evil prom queen from a teenage soap opera.
But who gives a fuck? I am being an ass as usual from 5000 miles away and neither you, nor anyone agrees with you up there will be affected by any of this. So by all means, please carry on. Write something equally nonsense, I dunno hit the buttons on the keyboard randomly, so our forum members could jerk off to it to feel good about themselves.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 11:28:19 AM
Wow, what a righteous, pile of demagoguery bullshit written and liked by a bunch of white trash. 'Does it ever get cold on moral high ground', sweety? It doesn't, when it is not about you, does it?
You are talking as if white people actually cared or tried to do something about racism in their country before, but suddenly got their heart broken and stopped caring when they were called something bad. They have actually never cared if they are being called racist or not. They just didn't give a fuck, they didn't even know if racism was still a real, hot, ugly issue in their country before social media wars against SJW began. And it became a personal issue for them when somebody translated the 'the system is inherently racist' to 'Fuck you, you are all racists'.
[Parts deleted for brevity]
Chill! By assuming all people of a demographic act the same way, you are being racist yourself. You don't want to be what you condemn yourself. Rail against the ideas, not the groups. Groups are less cohesive than you think.
Not all white people voted for Trump and not all minority people voted for Clinton, right?
Do you agree with every person of your own demographic? Do you agree with some people notof your demographic?
It's the same for everyone.
You think we are all racists because Trump is the President-elect? More people voted for Clinton than Trump. I'm an old white guy, and I was sick for a week after the election. I even stopped blogging for a while. But life goes on.
DON'T assume everyone acts in accordance with a demographic. It's offensive...
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 11:52:07 AM
[Parts deleted for brevity]
Chill! By assuming all people of a demographic act the same way, you are being racist yourself. You don't want to be what you condemn yourself. Rail against the ideas, not the groups. Groups are less cohesive than you think.
Not all white people voted for Trump and not all minority people voted for Clinton, right?
Do you agree with every person of your own demographic? Do you agree with some people notof your demographic?
It's the same for everyone.
You think we are all racists because Trump is the President-elect? More people voted for Clinton than Trump. I'm an old white guy, and I was sick for a week after the election. I even stopped blogging for a while. But life goes on.
DON'T assume everyone acts in accordance with a demographic. It's offensive...
You have a problem with understanding what you read.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 12:15:29 PM
You have a problem with understanding what you read.
Was there some fact or argument you wanted to impart?
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 12:22:39 PM
Was there some fact or argument you wanted to impart?
No. It's plainly just that. You have a problem with understanding what you read.
I am saying that except a very little minority, white people do not care about racism as an issue at all. They have never cared about it before, they do not care about it now. They just don't give a fuck. Because it is not about them. It doesn't touch them. It's all the same for them if racism is an issue or not.
They just talk about it in forums and boards because it is anonymous, when there is something negative they can relate to themselves, it gets delicious and they start to create 'reasonings' on blaming the other side. Usually goes aruond teh word racist. 'They are calling us all racist'.
There is a big issue about the word itself. Racist. It's a learned behaviour that 'racist' is something you shouldn't be called, because it is an insult. Doesn't matter if you are or not. But that is just it.
You can actually be a racist, or only apathetic to the issue, it doesn't matter. The political correctness is so deep and thick it is about being called a racist, not even being one.
It's about insulting the white identity; culture which is by the way inherently the most racist, fascist ethnic group one earth. They do not give a fuck about racism at all, they are just jacked about being called racists and that's where it get delicious beause it is another self righteous bullshit to blame any other none white ethnic group. Masturbation.
Drunkenshoe, you are the one wagging your finger at us from your moral high ground. You are so completely entrenched in your own position that you can't even relate to some of the other members on this forum. I appreciate your perspective being outside America but you don't have an insider's perspective, you aren't living here. I honestly try to understand your point but all I see you doing is calling strangers racist, name calling, claiming we don't care and saying our American system is so corrupted we can't see out of it. Perhaps we can't. I know you're frustrated, we all are, but why should I want to listen to someone who thinks I'm racist, white trash, narcissistic, ignorant as fuck, dumb as soup, social media scum?... and an evil prom queen. I started this thread, so I know I'm in your field of fire. Maybe we are too different to have a productive conversation.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 01:01:31 PM
No. It's plainly just that. You have a problem with understanding what you read.
I am saying that except a very little minority, white people do not care about racism as an issue at all. They have never cared about it before, they do not care about it now. They just don't give a fuck. Because it is not about them. It doesn't touch them. It's all the same for them if racism is an issue or not.
They just talk about it in forums and boards because it is anonymous, when there is something negative they can relate to themselves, it gets delicious and they start to create 'reasonings' on blaming the other side. Usually goes aruond teh word racist. 'They are calling us all racist'.
There is a big issue about the word itself. Racist. It's a learned behaviour that 'racist' is something you shouldn't be called, because it is an insult. Doesn't matter if you are or not. But that is just it.
You can actually be a racist, or only apathetic to the issue, it doesn't matter. The political correctness is so deep and thick it is about being called a racist, not even being one.
It's about insulting the white identity; culture which is by the way inherently the most racist, fascist ethnic group one earth. They do not give a fuck about racism at all, they are just jacked about being called racists and that's where it get delicious beause it is another self righteous bullshit to blame any other none white ethnic group. Masturbation.
I have to admit that I have come to the sad conclusion that America is and always was racist. I've lived or been in all parts of this huge country. I have see institutional racism everywhere, everywhen. That does not mean that all whites are racist. Or that all blacks are free of racism. Not so. What it means is that the very structure of our country is racist. And it started with Plymouth Rock, Jamestown and St. Augustine.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 10:27:39 AM
I disagree. Gramma was racist and didn't know she was. But she was...
I see the -ist ending as meaning "one who practices...". There is agency there; a conscious will. Gramma may have been a life-long campaigner for equal rights, but she just grew up in an era where the word "colored" was accepted, and so it is habit. What she said may be considered a racist statement, but she is not a racist because she doesn't practice racism (which is the belief that one's own race is superior to others).
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 02, 2016, 02:32:16 PM
Drunkenshoe, you are the one wagging your finger at us from your moral high ground. You are so completely entrenched in your own position that you can't even relate to some of the other members on this forum. I appreciate your perspective being outside America but you don't have an insider's perspective, you aren't living here. I honestly try to understand your point but all I see you doing is calling strangers racist, name calling, claiming we don't care and saying our American system is so corrupted we can't see out of it. Perhaps we can't. I know you're frustrated, we all are, but why should I want to listen to someone who thinks I'm racist, white trash, narcissistic, ignorant as fuck, dumb as soup, social media scum?... and an evil prom queen. I started this thread, so I know I'm in your field of fire. Maybe we are too different to have a productive conversation.
Oh no, sweety. Nonsensei's post, what you have posted about an issue that cannot end is based on pure righteous bullshit and fake sense of moral high ground and entitlement when there is no issue for the promoters at all.
The posts and threads on racism in this forum are only about blaming and accusing any ethnic group out of white from an athlete making a gesture in a sports game to some activist groups' protest. The drill is that somebody posts a mainstream, politically correct, patched apologetic demagoguery on how it is all about the fault of the other side OR some other group. Masturbation starts. People push the like button. Then a poster comes and makes some more detailed last touches on the same bullshit and collective masturbation takes another turn.
There is no conversation on the topic. There is a group of white people blaming every other group with a different culture, gender or colour with anything possible. Oh yes they are polite, very politically correct and certainly they are not calling anyone names. So everything is fine, isn't it?
And I am fucking sick of this 'you are calling, strangers, this or that racists'. There is no position to have a conversation about racism in this forum. It's either you agree with a posted material which is all the same or not. When somebody posts anything different than the manstream bullshit, mostly Shiranu does, the convo goes various ways from 'it is like you hate being white and being a man' to you are so emotional hehehe to bans and accusations of harassments and shit.
I haven been a member of this forum for 7 years now, GSO, I ahev a long memory I have an idea what is going on this forum. Also it really doesn't require to be an insider to America to see what I am talking about here. It's neither that complicated, nor that alien to me.
So save your bullshit. You haven't posted a ground for conversation, an argument or some original idea that offers something different than the ugly hypocrisy, you are promoting it by throiwng blame. You are right though I cannot relate the bullshit of the most members of this forum, their constant apologetic stance on about the most bleeding issues, the way they constantly turn anything on its heads just to satisfy themselves and pretend that they are members of some sort of a minority intelligent club.
Nobody gives fuck about this even enough to talk about it openly in an internet forum anonymously. Yes narcissism, ignorance and stupidity wrapped up in sticky political correctness.
I am not just frustrated, I am angry and depressed. This is going to fuck countless lives up, mostly over here, but nothing, not a speck will get through and the same profile of people will continue to post the same bullshit, oh so politely relating to themselves.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 02:58:06 PM
That does not mean that all whites are racist. Or that all blacks are free of racism. Not so.
This is strawman and it doesn't mean anything.
QuoteWhat it means is that the very structure of our country is racist.
Yes. And the amount of people who actually see that and understand what kind of an entitlement it provides is a very little group. Rest could care less than blaming black people and minorities for everything possible.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 11:28:19 AM
Wow, what a righteous, pile of demagoguery bullshit written and liked by a bunch of white trash. 'Does it ever get cold on moral high ground', sweety? It doesn't, when it is not about you, does it?
You are talking as if white people actually cared or tried to do something about racism in their country before, but suddenly got their heart broken and stopped caring when they were called something bad. They have actually never cared if they are being called racist or not. They just didn't give a fuck, they didn't even know if racism was still a real, hot, ugly issue in their country before social media wars against SJW began. And it became a personal issue for them when somebody translated the 'the system is inherently racist' to 'Fuck you, you are all racists'.
Just so you know, this is not about 99 % of white Americans who actually never cared or got involved with anything about some issue -ANY issue- in their country, being called racists, but a bunch stupid white ass social media scum who made money from selling people like you a well designed product of your identity to match your 6 year old ego for years now. Yes, it's that easy and that simple. Manipulating American society; a narcissistic society that is completely involved with 'me' is as easy as slapping a child. This time the child smashed his head on the wall though.
Your culture is inherently racist. The system is inherently racist head to toe. And you are trying to punish people who expressed this truth out loud by 'it is your fault, you called us racists'. Trump has won because Trump is America. A religious and racist country. The rest of the white people is a very little minority living in actual diverse social environments in big cities and noone else actually cares about any of these issues other than jerking off to their own group.
In this case a group of white men who constantly demonise women, black people or anyone who is out of the white -right- ethnic group and right gender is jacked about being called racists and build a 'reasoning' on racist issue 'getting snubbed' because black people called all white people racists (!).
You know what, I actually started to get why America keeps ending up in certain administrations, Nonsensei. Because there is literally nothing in the country with people. Nothing. You people are ignorant as fuck, dumb as soup and narcissistic as an evil prom queen from a teenage soap opera.
But who gives a fuck? I am being an ass as usual from 5000 miles away and neither you, nor anyone agrees with you up there will be affected by any of this. So by all means, please carry on. Write something equally nonsense, I dunno hit the buttons on the keyboard randomly, so our forum members could jerk off to it to feel good about themselves.
You're right. Many white people don't really care about racism and rarely try to actually do anything about it. This doesn't make them racists themselves, but it does make them pathologically indifferent.
What the article describes is a scenario that was really the best we could hope for given the general indifference of the American people towards each other. It was a situation in which overt racism was severely punished. For example, if Donald Trump has run for president in 2000 instead of 2016 he wouldn't have even made it out of the primaries. The things he said about women and minorities would have sunk him before he even left port, if you will forgive a nautical analogy. Actually don't forgive it that was awful.
The article is trying to figure out what has changed. Why is it that starting this election year, an open bigot like Donald Trump can win an election when, 20 years ago he would have become a social pariah? Something has shifted among voters. The article is suggesting that Americans stopped caring about bigotry because the rules that have regulated what is and is not considered bigotry have changed. Specifically, bigotry used to be something you did. Today it is something you are. Further it is something you are by virtue of being what you are.
So white people see the shift in political correctness that starts to define them as racists for being white. To be clear, it doesn't matter if this is true and it doesn't matter if the people effecting this change really mean that ALLLL white people are racist. All that matters for the purpose of this discussion is what the perception of the white American voter is.
What I am describing here is white victimhood, where a large portion of white people feel like they are under ideological assault. Essentially this is what I feel was one of the major contributors to a Trump victory. Instead of seeing racism as something external and reprehensible, they started seeing it as a bludgeon used to silence them. It became a label they couldn't avoid or remove. Their natural response was to reject the entire concept and retaliate at the polls.
And they did, putting Donald Trump in the white house and handing congress to the republican party.
And it could never have happened without social justice warriors. That is the overarching point. Social justice warriors made it impossible to be white and not a bigot in their minds. But rather than be chastised by the reality of their innate evilness, they rejected the entire concept in the most virulent way they could - they voted for the most openly bigoted candidate in recent history and the socially regressive party he represented. This is how SJW's contributed to social regression in a way only they could have accomplished. If not for SJW's Donald Trump would almost certainly not be president.
Again, I can't stress this enough: The reality doesn't matter. Whats actually going on is irrelevant. All that matters is the perception of these white american voters, and they felt victimized, as laughable as that seems. They responded the way any group of humans would - by striking out in retaliation. Unfortunately for everyone on the planet, that retaliation took the form of President Trump.
Believe it or not, as with many issues, the two of us are really on the same side. The old social order regarding racism had huge flaws. It left the field very wide open for racism to go undetected and unpunished. But the white American majority felt safe in it. They felt safe enough not to band together and make horrible voting decisions just for the sake of telling progressive groups to go fuck themselves. They felt safe enough to vote democrat and put socially progressive politicians in office, like Obama. By removing the illusion that racism was a specific problem rather than an institutional one, and by telling white people they were all the root of that institutional racism those white americans stopped feeling safe and started to feel angry.
I do think that racism is a huge problem in America, but I also recognize that white america in general is not ready to accept responsibility for institutional discrimination. Your gut reaction to that might be that they need to grow the fuck up, but that won't happen. And unfortunately, as we witnessed last month, white america is not above angrily voting a semi-sentient orangutan into office as a form of retaliation against having the truth smeared in their faces.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 03:36:33 PM
This is strawman and it doesn't mean anything.
I don't see it that way. Whites don't have a monopoly on racism. Racism is only a specialized version of 'us vs them'. It is a way to pit one group against another. It should be even more obvious since there is only one race of human. Human. The rest is mainly window dressing. It seems to me racism is a left over vestige of a survival trait that makes one's first duty to defend the 'group' vs all others so that your group could survive. Now that is not a very good survival trait; it is more like an anti-survival trait.
My country has always used racism in it's institutions; it's in the constitution for crying out loud! It will be there for quite some time, I'm afraid.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 01:01:31 PM
No. It's plainly just that. You have a problem with understanding what you read.
I am saying that except a very little minority, white people do not care about racism as an issue at all. They have never cared about it before, they do not care about it now. They just don't give a fuck. Because it is not about them. It doesn't touch them. It's all the same for them if racism is an issue or not.
They just talk about it in forums and boards because it is anonymous, when there is something negative they can relate to themselves, it gets delicious and they start to create 'reasonings' on blaming the other side. Usually goes aruond teh word racist. 'They are calling us all racist'.
There is a big issue about the word itself. Racist. It's a learned behaviour that 'racist' is something you shouldn't be called, because it is an insult. Doesn't matter if you are or not. But that is just it.
You can actually be a racist, or only apathetic to the issue, it doesn't matter. The political correctness is so deep and thick it is about being called a racist, not even being one.
It's about insulting the white identity; culture which is by the way inherently the most racist, fascist ethnic group one earth. They do not give a fuck about racism at all, they are just jacked about being called racists and that's where it get delicious beause it is another self righteous bullshit to blame any other none white ethnic group. Masturbation.
The opposite of love, isn't hate, it is indifference. When Americans are indifferent about race (not just racism) ... we aren't playing nice. It isn't Détente. I thought we had Détente ... but I was wrong, as was shown by events over the last 8 years. Actual hatred would be honest ... and PC is anything but. We can't resolve anything thru dishonesty.
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 07:50:00 PM
The opposite of love, isn't hate, it is indifference.
Absolutely!
Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 16, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
How do you suppose we address racism besides simply ignoring it for a few generations?
Create an environment or a set of circumstances that renders the concept of race moot. The military is an interesting, albeit harsh, example of this. A person's whiteness, blackness, brownness, etc does not change the fact that everyone needs to work together as a team or that everyone in the group will be punished for the fuck-ups of one person (no matter their race). It creates cohesion within the group by rewarding cooperative behavior and punishing disruptive behavior (such as racism).
For a country, catastrophe provides a very selective environment for group cohesion. Tragedies that affect everyone in nearly the same way, offer a reminder that we are all the same and are part of a greater whole.
Implementing a system based on merits with no regard to race (therefore can become racially random), may provide the incentive to focus more on what sort of person you want or need to be and less on which racial group you belong to or tallying how many members of a race are present at a given time in a given place. This method would focus more on removing the concept of distinctive classes (or other groups) and those restrictions, and give little, if any thought, to the race(s) of the people who happen to be in those classes. For instance, if person A, B, and C are from three different races, then you would select A because they are the best fit for the job. Same is true if person A, B, and C were from different classes within a given society. Then race or class would no longer be the selective force - merit would be.
The key being - don't select for race. Select for something else.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 07:32:39 PM
I don't see it that way. Whites don't have a monopoly on racism. Racism is only a specialized version of 'us vs them'. It is a way to pit one group against another. It should be even more obvious since there is only one race of human. Human. The rest is mainly window dressing. It seems to me racism is a left over vestige of a survival trait that makes one's first duty to defend the 'group' vs all others so that your group could survive. Now that is not a very good survival trait; it is more like an anti-survival trait.
My country has always used racism in it's institutions; it's in the constitution for crying out loud! It will be there for quite some time, I'm afraid.
Mike, no ethnic group has monopoly on anything. This is needless to discuss. I am saying the statement of 'Not all whites are racist' is not an argument for the issue of racism. It doesn't mean anything, because as you put it is something institutional, something inherent.
Quote from: Nonsensei on December 02, 2016, 07:23:43 PM
You're right. Many white people don't really care about racism and rarely try to actually do anything about it. This doesn't make them racists themselves, but it does make them pathologically indifferent.
What the article describes is a scenario that was really the best we could hope for given the general indifference of the American people towards each other. It was a situation in which overt racism was severely punished. For example, if Donald Trump has run for president in 2000 instead of 2016 he wouldn't have even made it out of the primaries. The things he said about women and minorities would have sunk him before he even left port, if you will forgive a nautical analogy. Actually don't forgive it that was awful.
The article is trying to figure out what has changed. Why is it that starting this election year, an open bigot like Donald Trump can win an election when, 20 years ago he would have become a social pariah? Something has shifted among voters. The article is suggesting that Americans stopped caring about bigotry because the rules that have regulated what is and is not considered bigotry have changed. Specifically, bigotry used to be something you did. Today it is something you are. Further it is something you are by virtue of being what you are.
So white people see the shift in political correctness that starts to define them as racists for being white. To be clear, it doesn't matter if this is true and it doesn't matter if the people effecting this change really mean that ALLLL white people are racist. All that matters for the purpose of this discussion is what the perception of the white American voter is.
What I am describing here is white victimhood, where a large portion of white people feel like they are under ideological assault. Essentially this is what I feel was one of the major contributors to a Trump victory. Instead of seeing racism as something external and reprehensible, they started seeing it as a bludgeon used to silence them. It became a label they couldn't avoid or remove. Their natural response was to reject the entire concept and retaliate at the polls.
And they did, putting Donald Trump in the white house and handing congress to the republican party.
And it could never have happened without social justice warriors. That is the overarching point. Social justice warriors made it impossible to be white and not a bigot in their minds. But rather than be chastised by the reality of their innate evilness, they rejected the entire concept in the most virulent way they could - they voted for the most openly bigoted candidate in recent history and the socially regressive party he represented. This is how SJW's contributed to social regression in a way only they could have accomplished. If not for SJW's Donald Trump would almost certainly not be president.
Again, I can't stress this enough: The reality doesn't matter. Whats actually going on is irrelevant. All that matters is the perception of these white american voters, and they felt victimized, as laughable as that seems. They responded the way any group of humans would - by striking out in retaliation. Unfortunately for everyone on the planet, that retaliation took the form of President Trump.
Believe it or not, as with many issues, the two of us are really on the same side. The old social order regarding racism had huge flaws. It left the field very wide open for racism to go undetected and unpunished. But the white American majority felt safe in it. They felt safe enough not to band together and make horrible voting decisions just for the sake of telling progressive groups to go fuck themselves. They felt safe enough to vote democrat and put socially progressive politicians in office, like Obama. By removing the illusion that racism was a specific problem rather than an institutional one, and by telling white people they were all the root of that institutional racism those white americans stopped feeling safe and started to feel angry.
I do think that racism is a huge problem in America, but I also recognize that white america in general is not ready to accept responsibility for institutional discrimination. Your gut reaction to that might be that they need to grow the fuck up, but that won't happen. And unfortunately, as we witnessed last month, white america is not above angrily voting a semi-sentient orangutan into office as a form of retaliation against having the truth smeared in their faces.
You say White Americans started not to feel safe and became angry which is as you put certainly laughable, and this as we all know has nothing to do with anything in real life.
Think about how American people-culture work with fear and paranoia about any kind of safety, from the simplest personal thing be it online or something daily; how they conduct themselves, how politically correct and sterilised most of their lives are. This people supposedly felt unsafe and become angry about groups who have been angry and unsafe all their existence in this country which was basically founded on that relationship. Now think about Black people or other minorities -be it Middle Easterners and various different Asian groups...etc. Getting attacked and killed for the simplest thing like their outfits -how many Sikhs have been assualted and killed in the last year?- for blacks constantly reading and watching their fellow people being shot for their skin colour at sight, because they are the 'criminal' race AND how everyone is acting politically correct about it with 'myeh, media is fueling, besides you know their crime rate' AND in the end when that anger and unsafety; all this bullshit and hypocrisy results in some protest and reaction they get is 'How do you dare to make me feel like you feel in your existence and call me a racist!'
If we put this on historical perspective, the white master punished the nonwhite for daring to react and make himself virtually, remotely feel what has been his existence all along.
I don't know if you are aware, but what you are saying is what BLM puts forward with a different expression; yours is different because you are not in it; you are not experiencing, thinking, feeling, breathing, living it. You are saying to me, "Shoe, white people are racist in this country, so let it go." Because as the nonracist white minority doesn't make a difference, while the majority actively changed the course in the opposite. Because it seems that a very large group of White dems who voted for Obama have voted for Trump.
They made a personal decision between a person who would make a typical standard president for USA and another one -every bullshit he spewed aside- with no experience who promised to make America white again. It's not an Republican win in pre 9/11 era. Doesn't matter what is generally this forum's perception, the Great America is the white America runs on war industry, atrocity and genocide, the traditional racist hierarchy. The fact that some people see that past from a different point of view NOW, unfortunately doesn't change the reality that it is actually just an inidivudal awakening they developed during the same course while now it dropped miles down the scales.
If it's about SJW being loud and agressive; not being politically correct to the vanillas' delicate feelings, doesn't matter who hates SJW how much, they are an organic, natural result of social change in America. It doesn't matter how stupid it looks to the white heterosexual man, everything happening now proves in first hand that they were actually in the right course. To blame them for Trump or the downfall is like blaming the victim for rape.
But if you are going to blame them, please do not forget to include the strong disgusting white backlash to every SJW group, any protest and activism porduced by the heterosexual white men with vlogs and blogs with millions and millions of followers. People who made tons of money by spreading urgent fear, hatred, sense and blame of anti-racism and sexism groups for the downfall of western civilsation. They created the white victimhood, speifically the white heterosexual victimisation which was owned up to it by the white with glee. FFS, this forum is full of those vlogs and blogs to the brim, half of it is posted shut up shiranu some for me. There is nothing else in it about any of the issues. It is the fucking safe space for it, because people actually believe here that it is all made up.
You are blaming the wrong side with wrong reasons.
[I do know we agree on most things and that we are on the same side that just makes me more angry with you when you post something apologetic and with other people I actually give a damn about their opinions and it gives me a migraine. Otherwise, I don't give a fuck what a republican member posts here, could care less, I don't have a speck of respect for them, nothing except despise. Save the lecture on hatred please. I have spent my life with exploding my head trying to be 'objective'. Not anymore, I am taking sides and it is not the white one. Over here or there. Be it a white turk or a white american. Fuck all of them. (When it comes to personal feelings about this election, I shouldn't have doubted myself and talked about it with you and, my friends, sis, write it here, get it out instead of deluding myself with anti-trump democrats who are clueless what is going in their own country. This is what fucked up my psychology. Not to say I told you so, but because I really do care about it, because as you know my life very well the only place I have to go is United States if the worst should happen here. But I couldn't because the delusion is warm and comfortable but I feel so fucking bad about it BECAUSE I am living in the same nightmare ALL OVER AGAIN. This time the scale is not limited to some little Middle Eastern country. It is a global catastrophie.)]
I want to tell you something and I know you'll find it absurdly dark. Do you remember that a few days after the election morning we were talking about initial protests and you explained to me that American people would never go out for a big national protest, something like we had in 2013 and that they will continue their lives without caring what is going on. And that they would see protests as just crude violence and riots.
I tried to describe you some phases a society goes through when something like this happens. That there is the initial 'shock', and then a dormant period which people get used to things, but that nothing big happens neither from the other side...just bit by bit under the surface until a certain point of power and confidence he reaches. BUT then at some point when things start to surface and get to a tipping point -because he will win the second round- people will start to react in groups. I know you don't believe in that right now. But that slowly brewing long coming psychology that point in individual and mass scale is something really unexpected and unbelievable.
And when that starts to happen he will; they will declare everyone who criticises him, his government or anything done a terrorist. People will die right and left. The arm forces will open fire to their own citizens. They will start to shoot nonwhites, lgbtq people first and anyone, any group that will go out and protest something, speak against him. He will threaten everyone from organisations, groups, journalists to writers, comedy shows hosts..etc. He will sue everyone. Adjust laws to do it. He will create blasphemy laws of any kind.
And it will be the new norm. It will be 'they are violent rioters, a threat to society, threat to America'. Half the America is 'anti-American' now. Nobody will do anything, they won't be able to. It will just go on winding and winding AND when the winder is broken -you know that when you wind old clocks if you do it over the lever breaks inside and doesn't wind anymore?- nobody will be able to do anything other than go out to protest because they are scared. One fear will overwhelm the other.
I know how it sounds and I sincerely hope that I am very wrong about this. But this is easy to happen and it will happen invisibly and slowly and one day when you wake up this will be the normal. If somebody told me 15 years ago that hundreds of thousands of people would go out to protest the government, that one day protests even would protect certain laws and rights in my country I would fall down my chair laughing and probably make fun of it obnoxiously. But it happened and it was horrifying and the most humbling thing on earth if you ask me. They kept abortion right several years ago and just 10 days ago they forced the government change a legislation about sexual assault.
-----------------------
I think you'll be up in an hour. I'd be glad if we could game or watch a movie or something. If I go on gaming alone just to shut up myself, I'll start bleeding from my ears.
Put down the internet, everybody, and go for a walk.
Shoe ... the people are simply responding in a fugue state, to the disaster of the police state. Same as most people drown when a ship sinks, because they don't do the few necessary things immediately after the ship hits the ice berg. The majority can't be saved ... save yourself and your family, leave the rest to their watery fate.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 03, 2016, 03:43:40 AM
Mike, no ethnic group has monopoly on anything. This is needless to discuss. I am saying the statement of 'Not all whites are racist' is not an argument for the issue of racism. It doesn't mean anything, because as you put it is something institutional, something inherent.
It is inherent because history can't be changed, humans are predators, and people prefer to deny what monsters we really are (not that there is anything wrong with kaiju). The idea that some technological or social process will change this, is insane.
QuoteCreate an environment or a set of circumstances that renders the concept of race moot. The military is an interesting, albeit harsh, example of this. A person's whiteness, blackness, brownness, etc does not change the fact that everyone needs to work together as a team or that everyone in the group will be punished for the fuck-ups of one person (no matter their race). It creates cohesion within the group by rewarding cooperative behavior and punishing disruptive behavior (such as racism).
Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.
They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.
Quote from: Nonsensei on December 02, 2016, 07:23:43 PM
And unfortunately, as we witnessed last month, white america is not above angrily voting a semi-sentient orangutan into office as a form of retaliation against having the truth smeared in their faces.
Bwahahahahaha.
I shouldn't laugh, but that the orangutan bit was just too funny.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 03, 2016, 10:41:59 AM
Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.
They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.
Military people (I know USAF) are very conservative (because they are volunteer professionals ... this wasn't true during the Draft). Generally speaking though, only a few of them are gun nuts, or are war mongers. Since they get to fight, they are usually against war. The military, contrary to their own wants, was forced to integrate several times since the American Revolution. Things seem pretty stable, race-wise, today. The ennui is mostly directed at civilians. If more liberals would volunteer for military duty ... they would become less conservative. All SJW stuff they do in the military today, is superficial PC ... they don't really believe any of it, they just have to salute it. The biggest internal problem is sexual assault by male military against female military.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 03, 2016, 10:41:59 AM
Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.
They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.
I have to disagree. I served with people from just about every ethnic background you can think of and think the camaraderie built from serving together overcame a lot of superficial biases. Going through rigorous training together and experiencing hardships overseas together, while striving for the same cause, brings people closer to one another. Why don't you join up and serve a tour so you can get an inside view? Expand your horizons.