I am attempting to gain information regarding morality without religion. I am reaching out for help from the community, as this is the first resource I considered as a valid source for this topic. I understand that there is morality without a god, but how does one teach this? When you look at religions, there are not arguments for morality. It is simply, do it or burn. If you have suggestions for books, recorded arguments, text, blogs, or anything that would help teach someone morality. Thank you for your time and assistance.
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Without-God-Billion-Nonreligious/dp/006167012X
A thought about "morality comes from God". If this is true then how are other people moral? People who don't believe in the god or gods being claimed as the source for morality must "get morality from somewhere." So, could it be that everybody's god or gods are real and provide morality? Or is it that the morality source is outside the religious realm entirely?
We see chimps being "moral", do they have gods?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/cohen02.htm
http://www.debate.org/opinions/morals-can-exist-without-religion
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2015, 01:48:45 PM
A thought about "morality comes from God". If this is true then how are other people moral? People who don't believe in the god or gods being claimed as the source for morality must "get morality from somewhere." So, could it be that everybody's god or gods are real and provide morality? Or is it that the morality source is outside the religious realm entirely?
We see chimps being "moral", do they have gods?
I believe you learn morality without religion thru example and social consequence. Everything comes back to the golden rule, do unto others.... The issues that I want to address need to be explained. There are many teaching examples of salesmanship were you network and make friends with people because there is a gain to be had. I believe the same can be applied to morals. There is a simple carrot and stick approch you can take. If you fight, people will fight back. If you kill, you will be branded a killer and outcast from society. If you are kind, you will recieve kindness. Much of the material I have read so far, is simply "I can be moraly correct, I don't need some one to tell me not to eat babies to know it is wrong." The problem with this, is that it still falls into: "I don't know why I do the things I do, or believe the things I believe, I just do." I want to explain why we do the things we do, because I believe this is what is missing from a lot of arguments. I am simply finding these bits of information, far and few between. I will post my results if I find anything useful.
The study of morality among chimps is online, you might find it useful, or at least the references list.
Truthfully I really don't get why atheists and religious people make such a big deal about morality. I mean morality can be useful but there are times when you just need to push it aside because it will get in your way. But I notice the only people who are mostly concerned with morality are atheists and monotheists.
Like Sholem Alechem said only two people in his village took God seriously...the village rabbi and the village atheist and they both took turns playing the village idiot.
My line is ... development of a conscience. A conscience is a behavior regulator where we have internalized a rule and made it unconscious. What you feed into it, by association or deliberation, is what you get. Programming. But what to put in? A positive personality will realize that not all activities are conducive to personal survival and enhancement. Only ponder and internalize positive activities. And an empathic person will realize that the difference between "self" and "other" needs to be transcended ... that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. With that kind of psychological equipment, one will intuit unethical situations and avoid them, and intuit ethical situations and be drawn to them.
BTW - this is in the parlance, that ethics is universal, but that morality is specific to the context of religion. To me morality implies ... do this, or don't do that ... just because some authority (often religion) says so. In the case of government, the term "legality" is used.
Jewish life is based on prayer ... in the context that prayer is directed to oneself primarily, requesting G-d's help, and primarily for repentance. Repentance is about not forgetting to be ethical, and having remembered, to put it into action. Having prayed and repented, one is now psychologically ready to do some good deed (as per conscientious and empathetic context) ... one good deed being to pray again, to build up one's conscience, to develop one's empathy, closing the cycle. This practice gets better the more one does it, positive feedback. So it is a practice ... being good or doing good doesn't happen on its own, but there are ways to gain it. But being applied psychology, one could do this without G-d or prayer ... and see it as a power of deliberate positive thinking. In our lives, we are exposed to much negativity, which pulls us away from being good or doing good.
I wonder why people confuse morality and ethics. And the two have always existed, with or without religion. It just happened that religion hijacked both of them.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 15, 2015, 07:15:02 AM
I wonder why people confuse morality and ethics. And the two have always existed, with or without religion. It just happened that religion hijacked both of them.
And they have neither.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 15, 2015, 07:15:02 AM
I wonder why people confuse morality and ethics. And the two have always existed, with or without religion. It just happened that religion hijacked both of them.
My understanding is that Ethics are external rules that we live by, Morals are internal rules that we live by. Morals are stronger than Ethics when making a choice, so I am going with that. Core values is the ideal target when addressing change.
Update: I haven't found the "why" yet. I am beginning to think this is an actual problem. This comes during a time when the masses need some moral fiber in their diet. I strongly believe that removing programs that promote nationalism and character building will be the downfall of the US.
2 days research bli'me that was quick, can we guess what is going to come next folks.
(http://us.123rf.com/450wm/iofoto/iofoto1002/iofoto100200069/6455259-young-african-american-boy-peeks-through-his-fingers-as-he-sits-at-a-coffee-table-horizontal-shot.jpg?ver=6)
I can hardly wait,
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2015, 01:48:45 PM
A thought about "morality comes from God". If this is true then how are other people moral? People who don't believe in the god or gods being claimed as the source for morality must "get morality from somewhere." So, could it be that everybody's god or gods are real and provide morality? Or is it that the morality source is outside the religious realm entirely?
We see chimps being "moral", do they have gods?
Yes, Marimbo.
Quote from: GrimTalo on October 16, 2015, 12:51:37 PM
My understanding is that Ethics are external rules that we live by, Morals are internal rules that we live by. Morals are stronger than Ethics when making a choice, so I am going with that. Core values is the ideal target when addressing change.
Update: I haven't found the "why" yet. I am beginning to think this is an actual problem. This comes during a time when the masses need some moral fiber in their diet. I strongly believe that removing programs that promote nationalism and character building will be the downfall of the US.
Maybe the 'why' could be as simple as what works for the group as a whole. Why is it not acceptable to abuse children? For biological and social reasons. We, are driven as a species to protect our young. And our society deems it to be the right thing to do--protect children. That's the why. And all other 'morals' are determined in a like manner. And they can change over time. I agree that ethics are what should be and morals are what is.
Why is now a time when the masses need some moral fiber in their diet? Or, why is now any different in any other time? And I see programs that promote nationalism as leading to fascism. Which is where the conservatives and christians are trying to take us. I see fascism as being bad--and I see us using terms such as 'The Homeland' as fascist. Homeland Security is a hallmark of a fascist movement.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 16, 2015, 02:42:03 PM
Pardon?
"Marimbo is the ancient and cheeky matron goddess of monkeys. (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Marimbo)"
Quote from: GrimTalo on October 16, 2015, 12:51:37 PM
My understanding is that Ethics are external rules that we live by, Morals are internal rules that we live by. Morals are stronger than Ethics when making a choice, so I am going with that. Core values is the ideal target when addressing change.
Basically, morality is your sense of right and wrong; ethics are the rules of conduct adopted by society.
QuoteUpdate: I haven't found the "why" yet. I am beginning to think this is an actual problem. This comes during a time when the masses need some moral fiber in their diet. I strongly believe that removing programs that promote nationalism and character building will be the downfall of the US.
You would have to go back as far as when humans were nomads. Survival was better if you belong to a group (family/clan/tribe). And as such, morality/ethics/religion offered the tools to keep the group together, giving it cohesion, stability and a sense of fairness so that the group could perform a task when it was necessary to do so. Eventually certain "universal" principles developed as we get to see them in many cultures, such as "thou shalt not murder" or the golden rule, "you should treat others as you would like others to treat yourself". So as to the why question: many reasons but the most basic is survival. Obviously, different cultures developed rules that were appropriate to them considering what kind of experiences they went through: wars, famines, diseases, etc.
Quote from: GrimTalo on October 16, 2015, 12:51:37 PM
I strongly believe that removing programs that promote nationalism and character building will be the downfall of the US.
aye, it worked for germany…..almost
Quote from: aitm on October 16, 2015, 07:51:42 PM
aye, it worked for germany…..almost
The Germans did develop nationalism, but they didn't develop character ;-( But Joe is showing his "conservative" colors. If only we Americans were true Uber-menschen ... y'all would continue to kiss our ass just like you used to.
yeah, we demanded prayer in school and pledging the flag throughout the 60's and 70's and we never had such a exodus to the Canadian border prior. Nationalism is all fine and dandy until reasonable people realize the real question is "will you die to make rich people richer", and "oh bye the way", your family ain't getting a fucking dime.
Here are 3 videos that helped me. These are by 3 different atheist philosophers, all of whom are well educated and well respected in the field of secular moral philosophy.
The first 1 explains moral tribes, and notice that god is not necessary for this to make sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9reBdFoIdY0
This second video is interesting as it explains what different ingredients go into moral views.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOQduoLgRw
This last one is longer, it is a debate between Shelly Kagan and WLC on god's role in morality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJnCQuPiuo
Aside from word definitions, you are right. A theology is unnecessary for moral behavior. Some would limit "morality" to theism, but "ethics" is universal (that being a secular philosophical subject).
One thing that muddles the issue, is post-Christian culture etc. To what extent is our ethical concerns inherited from a prior Christian society etc.
Well, considering this board is active.. I'd say neither religion nor god are necessary for satisfactory moral behavior. Alas, we'd all be in prison and this board would be dead :P.
Quote from: Sylar on December 07, 2015, 05:26:50 AM
Well, considering this board is active.. I'd say neither religion nor god are necessary for satisfactory moral behavior. Alas, we'd all be in prison and this board would be dead :P.
Morality and criminality are the normal outcomes of universal human behavior. So it isn't one or the other. Theists just blame G-d for what they do. Atheists blame their atoms ;-)