Ethicists - Voting Your Heart is Immoral

[PickelledEggs]

So can you explain to us how refusal to help make an effective vote against Trump is not selfish?

This is America. You have the right to be selfish if you want, but at least be self-aware.

Sent from your mom.

[FaithIsFilth]

Would've, could've, should've. But isn't. Its Hillary against Trump, and although I agree that she's appalling, she isn't dangerous in the way that Trump is. And by dangerous, I mean a possible existential threat to American democracy and civil liberties.

Obama has been just as bad as Bush, and maybe worse, when it comes to the loss of civil liberties, and Hillary will be no different. Have you been living under a rock?

I don't think it's fair to call someone immoral or selfish for refusing to vote for one of the main parties. Maybe that person thinks by helping build up a third party, things will turn out better in the long run, so calling that person immoral or selfish doesn't make sense. Go ahead and call them a dreamer who needs to come back to reality, but don't call them immoral. You won't get any liberals on the SC with Hillary in there. Hillary is anti-liberal and she, just like Pence, will nominate people who are anti-civil liberties. I don't think Pence is more likely than Hillary to start WW3. They are both bad news for the world. Does it make someone immoral if they refuse to vote in a warmonger and give up the fight against neo-conservatism? If you can't beat em, join em I guess, right? I don't see how voting for an anti-war candidate can be thought of as more immoral than giving your stamp of approval to someone who you know for certain is going to kill many, many people all around the world.

I don't think it's immoral for people to refuse to give up fighting against the war on drugs, rather than giving it your stamp of approval, or refusing to give up the fight against for-profit prisons, rather than voting for someone who takes money from them. How are things ever going to change if you give up fighting for that change?

Is Clinton a better choice than Pence/ Trump? Sure. Is marriage equality in trouble? No. The Republicans have jumped on the gay bandwagon and they're not going back now. Does Clinton have a better position when it comes to, for instance, women's health? Yes, she is better there. So, if you want to say that one is making a stupid choice by refusing to suck it up and vote for Clinton, then fair enough. That's a decent argument. I'll give you that. Calling them immoral or selfish is going too far though, and I don't think it is accurate.

[GSOgymrat]

Is marriage equality in trouble? No. The Republicans have jumped on the gay bandwagon and they're not going back now.

Republicans have not jumped on the gay bandwagon. From the official 2016 Republican Party Platform:

"It is the foundation of civil society, and the cornerstone of the family is natural marriage, the union of one man and one woman. ... For that reason, as explained elsewhere in this platform, we do not accept the Supreme Court’s redefinition of marriage and we urge its reversal, whether through judicial reconsideration or a constitutional amendment returning control over marriage to the states."

I agree that voting for an unviable candidate base on ideology is not an immoral act. People don't vote for unviable candidates because they intend harm but to eventually produce good outcomes. Also no one can predict the outcomes of a presidency therefore one can't say that a particular candidate will definitely produce bad outcomes for the country. For example, many people expected disaster when Obama was elected but by several objective measures the country is in better shape now than when he took office. Similarly, if Trump is elected disaster is not guaranteed. Even if it was a disaster, a Trump presidency might result in a political backlash that eventually creates positive outcomes, such as changing how elections are run.

[Nonsensei]

So can you explain to us how refusal to help make an effective vote against Trump is not selfish?

This is America. You have the right to be selfish if you want, but at least be self-aware.

Sent from your mom.

Yeah fuck that inane logic.

Do you buy American made goods? Is your car American made? If not, has anyone accused you of being selfish? After all buying American made goods supports the American economy.

But no, of course nobody accuses you of being selfish. You bought the best car for the best price. Simple as that. If Ford or GMC wanted your sale they should have offered a better car or a better price or both.

To sum it up, its not your job to buy American cars, its an American car manufacturer's job to offer a product you'll buy. If they don't, and you buy foreign, nobody jumps in and accuses you of being selfish.

Yes, it IS the exact same situation with candidates and voting. Hillary Clinton failed to convince me to vote for her. I don't owe her or you my vote. She has to earn it. So far, she has failed to do so. If she can't manage to convince me to vote for her by election day, I won't be voting her. Not voting for her is not selfish. My only function and obligation is to cast a vote for the candidate that I feel is most worthy to lead this country. If my decision doesn't fit with your desires, well isn't that just too fucking bad?

Don't make me laugh/puke with this disingenuous insinuation that a Trump presidency will somehow be my fault or the fault of other people who decide not to vote for her. If she loses its HER fault. If she loses, she sold the inferior product in the voting marketplace. If she loses, it will be because people, by and large, did not want her as president.

[PickelledEggs]

I do buy some foreign goods. And yeah, it does make me a bit selfish for looking after my own wallet and convienency sometimes.

But at least I'm self aware. ;)

[Shiranu]

Do you buy American made goods? Is your car American made? If not, has anyone accused you of being selfish? After all buying American made goods supports the American economy.

Helping the American economy and voting in a racist, homophobic, xenophobic enabler of even worse people are not quite apples to apples.

Yes, it IS the exact same situation with candidates and voting. Hillary Clinton failed to convince me to vote for her.

Except it's really not. You are not buying a car for yourself, rather everyone... but instead of saying, "Meh, I'll buy the one that at least works!" you say, "Well,  I'll just leave it up to the group and hope they don't pick the van that has spiked seats, flesh-eating seat belts, airbags full of nails and is missing two wheels! Yay, self-righteousness!".

My only function and obligation is to cast a vote for the candidate that I feel is most worthy to lead this country.

Why ever vote, then? Just write in "Jesus" or "Ghandi" or whoever you feel is TRULY fit to lead, not just some third-party loony who is a bit closer to your ideals. Why not just vote yourself in? Statistically they are all as likely to actually win.

If you vote third party, you aren't voting. And that's fine, just don't try to act like you are somehow morally superiour for "sticking to your guns". You are just wasting everyone's time when you could be at home watching a good series or mowing the lawn or literally anything else that is more productive. At least the people who refuse to vote have some integrity.

[PickelledEggs]

I'm not sure what else there is to explain. Nothing is going to change for the better with a new president. A president like Trump will be can certainly wound this country, but change for the better

will

not

happen

until we vote in a new house and senate. Vote for whoever you want, but you're ignoring reality by thinking voting for anyone but an effective vote against Trump is helping this country, unless you actually think Trump becoming president will help this country, which is another issue all together.

Not sure there are any other ways of wording it and I'm note sure what there's left to say anyway.

[FaithIsFilth]

Republicans have not jumped on the gay bandwagon. From the official 2016 Republican Party Platform:

"It is the foundation of civil society, and the cornerstone of the family is natural marriage, the union of one man and one woman. ... For that reason, as explained elsewhere in this platform, we do not accept the Supreme Court’s redefinition of marriage and we urge its reversal, whether through judicial reconsideration or a constitutional amendment returning control over marriage to the states."

Thanks for the correction. Yeah, they do not out and out support marriage equality, but they do not rail against it anymore either, unless they are specifically asked about it. You're right though. The platform says that it should be up to the individual States. In the past couple of years, instead of railing against gay marriage and making it one of their main talking points, we've instead heard things like "We need to concede that public opinion on the issue is shifting." 61 % of millenial Republicans support marriage equality. The Republicans are not entirely stupid. I think they see that this is a losing issue for them, but it's still a part of the platform because they don't want the bigots to stay home on voting day. I don't think anything would actually happen to marriage equality under a Trump/ Pence Presidency.

[Baruch]

.Repubs are far more interested in ending legal abortion, while y'all are distracted by the gay issue.

[GSOgymrat]

.Repubs are far more interested in ending legal abortion, while y'all are distracted by the gay issue.

I agree completely. I think the far right doesn't like the gays, the traditional conservatives are coming around, but a sizable percentage of the population is very concerned about abortion because they honestly believe babies are being murdered.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Electing Trump would accomplish one very positive thing: lazy voters on the left might be a bit less lazy next time.

I think part of what happened to Bernie is that many of his supporters were so confident he'd win the primaries that they didn't feel the need to attend personally. If Trump gets elected, I think it will be due to a similar issue on Hillary's side. Trump's supporters aren't voting for the lesser of two evils, whereas many of Hillary's "supporters" feel they are. It's a lot harder to get enthusiastic when you don't really like your candidate.

[GSOgymrat]

I'm interested to find out how many people vote in November.

[Nonsensei]

Helping the American economy and voting in a racist, homophobic, xenophobic enabler of even worse people are not quite apples to apples.

As long as you utterly disregard the point I was trying to make, you're absolutely right! :D

Except it's really not. You are not buying a car for yourself, rather everyone... but instead of saying, "Meh, I'll buy the one that at least works!" you say, "Well,  I'll just leave it up to the group and hope they don't pick the van that has spiked seats, flesh-eating seat belts, airbags full of nails and is missing two wheels! Yay, self-righteousness!".

No, I'm buying a car for myself. I am also voting for myself. I'm running out of ways to say that I don't owe you or anyone else my vote, rather that it has to be earned. It just doesn't seem to be sinking in at all. I can only assume that if you actually tackle that subject you are worried you might slip into a discussion about how dismal a candidate Hillary is and you've got your eye on the prize for maintaining that illusion you have regarding her adequacy.

Why ever vote, then? Just write in "Jesus" or "Ghandi" or whoever you feel is TRULY fit to lead, not just some third-party loony who is a bit closer to your ideals. Why not just vote yourself in? Statistically they are all as likely to actually win.

If you vote third party, you aren't voting. And that's fine, just don't try to act like you are somehow morally superiour for "sticking to your guns". You are just wasting everyone's time when you could be at home watching a good series or mowing the lawn or literally anything else that is more productive. At least the people who refuse to vote have some integrity.

Oh EL OH FUCKING EL getting lectured to about integrity by a Hillary supporter. As far as I'm concerned its chumps like you that got us into this impossible position by making her the nominee. Not because you like her, or because shes the best candidate. But just because someone convinced you that she has a better chance of defeating the antichrist Trump in the general.

Stick around Shiranu. Hang out here. Be sure to keep logging in for at least 2 more years. We can have some nice long discussions about personal voting responsibility against the backdrop of a dead center/mildly right President Hillary who caters to special interests and doesn't do one fucking thing for your precious social issues.

[Shiranu]

No, I'm buying a car for myself. I am also voting for myself.

If the president didn't make decisions that affect anyone other than you, sure.

Oh EL OH FUCKING EL getting lectured to about integrity by a Hillary supporter. As far as I'm concerned its chumps like you that got us into this impossible position by making her the nominee. Not because you like her, or because shes the best candidate. But just because someone convinced you that she has a better chance of defeating the antichrist Trump in the general.

I voted for Sanders in my primaries and attended Sanders rallies, but I suppose that helped Hillary win.


The primaries are for "ethics" and voting your heart, the election proper is voting who will be more aligned to your interest. And you can "vote" for Stein, Micky Mouse or Jesus but those are all less productive options than just staying home and saying, "Yeah, I didn't vote."


And again, if you really think Trump and Hillary are exactly the same, you have been fed a load of bullshit. Shit, let's forget those two... do you really think the Supreme Court justices they nominate will be "more or less" the same? Do you think the cultures they will inspire will be "more or less" the same?

[Hydra009]

Well, not with that attitude!

Pickelled Eggs is correct when he says that no third party has a chance of winning the election.  (Or any POTUS election in the foreseeable future, for that matter)  And it has nothing to do with attitude.  The way elections in the US are structured hurts third parties and practically guarantees a two-party system.  For any third parties to be viable, there'd have to be structural changes in our electoral system first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo