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TWO HOURS?!?!?!

Started by Nam, July 24, 2014, 01:11:20 AM

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pioteir

Quote from: Nam on July 26, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
...
but prisoners have rights, especially those on death row, and they can exhaust as much as they want
...

-Nam

Do You think it's ok if someone who killed another person or worse and thus rejected all the basic rules of living in a society, demands to exercise his "rights" as a member of said society? And, to top it off, we happily grant this, enjoying ourselves as "the enlightened", caring and "humane" society.
It's like in the movies when the bad guy, after a bloodbath he made, laughs and yells to the cops "Go on! Arrest me now. Throw me in jail! I need a vacation after all this work." And they do just that!!!!

For me it's simple on the most general level: If someone throws away the rules of a society he gets punished accordingly. When You take another human's life You get killed, end of story. It's not about revenge. It's a simple matter of protecting those who obey the rules, a simple matter of survival of the society. It's about NOT tolerating intolerance in the most extreme form.

And I don't buy the crap about offing some killer is more expensive than keeping him alive for 40 years or so.
Theology is unnecessary. - Stephen Hawking

Mermaid

Quote from: pioteir on July 31, 2014, 05:09:44 AM
Do You think it's ok if someone who killed another person or worse and thus rejected all the basic rules of living in a society, demands to exercise his "rights" as a member of said society? And, to top it off, we happily grant this, enjoying ourselves as "the enlightened", caring and "humane" society.
It's like in the movies when the bad guy, after a bloodbath he made, laughs and yells to the cops "Go on! Arrest me now. Throw me in jail! I need a vacation after all this work." And they do just that!!!!

For me it's simple on the most general level: If someone throws away the rules of a society he gets punished accordingly. When You take another human's life You get killed, end of story. It's not about revenge. It's a simple matter of protecting those who obey the rules, a simple matter of survival of the society. It's about NOT tolerating intolerance in the most extreme form.

And I don't buy the crap about offing some killer is more expensive than keeping him alive for 40 years or so.

It's actually not crap, it's a fact. But that is irrelevant in my mind.

Does a murderer deserve to die? Maybe. Do I, as a pious, Good Upstanding Person have the right to take his life? I don't think I do on a fundamental level. It's an obvious difference in fundamental beliefs, I think.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Nam

Quote from: pioteir on July 31, 2014, 05:09:44 AM
Do You think it's ok if someone who killed another person or worse and thus rejected all the basic rules of living in a society, demands to exercise his "rights" as a member of said society? And, to top it off, we happily grant this, enjoying ourselves as "the enlightened", caring and "humane" society.
It's like in the movies when the bad guy, after a bloodbath he made, laughs and yells to the cops "Go on! Arrest me now. Throw me in jail! I need a vacation after all this work." And they do just that!!!!

People who disregard societies laws should be punished for it. A person who kills another, and then the society decides that they're going to kill them disregards their own laws in the process. They stipulate "killing is wrong" then turn around and contradict that by killing the killer. That's not an exercise of justice that's an exercise of revenge.

Whether the person is deserving or not is irrelevant.

QuoteFor me it's simple on the most general level: If someone throws away the rules of a society he gets punished accordingly. When You take another human's life You get killed, end of story. It's not about revenge. It's a simple matter of protecting those who obey the rules, a simple matter of survival of the society. It's about NOT tolerating intolerance in the most extreme form.

How is locking them up for life not a manner of protecting society from such people?

QuoteAnd I don't buy the crap about offing some killer is more expensive than keeping him alive for 40 years or so.

Appeals process can take decades thus it costs more to keep them on death row than just allowing them to just stay in prison for life.

What you think is irrelevant, in such regard.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

pioteir

Quote from: Nam on July 31, 2014, 04:49:09 PM
People who disregard societies laws should be punished for it. A person who kills another, and then the society decides that they're going to kill them disregards their own laws in the process. They stipulate "killing is wrong" then turn around and contradict that by killing the killer. That's not an exercise of justice that's an exercise of revenge.

Whether the person is deserving or not is irrelevant.

How is locking them up for life not a manner of protecting society from such people?

Appeals process can take decades thus it costs more to keep them on death row than just allowing them to just stay in prison for life.

What you think is irrelevant, in such regard.

-Nam

And what about locking someone up for life? Isn't it also "wrong"? If a guy in Austria locks his daughter in the basement for 24 years it's considered wrong, but locking someone who killed another person is "justice"? The killer also has rights You know!
Well what about the VICTIM'S right to live!?

How about a situation where the killer is caught red handed and is about to attack the policemen trying to arrest him? Should they shoot him? Should they try to apprehend him with their bare hands?

The truth is we as a society grant certain things in certain situations and we don't consider them as "wrong" under the circumstances (killing the attacker in self defence, cops killing the "bad" guys). So why is it so hard to kill a mass murderer caught red handed? As a civilized society we bring him to court, he gets a fair trial, gets sentenced and off with him. I'm not talking about cases where there are doubts or whatever. You hace a killer seen by couple people, the camera got his face as he was killing, the prints are on the knife or whatever. He's guilty as fuck.
The second thing are the appeals. If the evidence is solid beyond any doubt and the killer doesn't give a fuck about the rules what's with the "he has rights" crap? He had rights BEFORE he killed the other guy. Again I'm not talking about some guy who stole some shit to eat and we need to cut his arm off.
So the appeals don't take decades and don't cost much.
My thought on the price of killing the killer could be a little more precise. I was referring strictly to the act of carrying out the sentence, not the decades of appeals and other "killer exercising his rights" type of stuff.

As for "How is locking them up for life not a manner of protecting society from such people?" I gotta ask: What happens when a killer kills another inmate? What then? Did we protect the other guy (who had just 2 days left of his sentence)? Why do I (a law abiding citizen) have to pay for a killer's housing, meals and activities (ping pong, trips to zoo, tv, game consoles or whatever)? Frankly I don't wanna. And if You consider the cost of a bullet... well You know what I want to say.
Theology is unnecessary. - Stephen Hawking

Solitary

Quote from: pioteir on July 31, 2014, 05:09:44 AM
Do You think it's ok if someone who killed another person or worse and thus rejected all the basic rules of living in a society, demands to exercise his "rights" as a member of said society? And, to top it off, we happily grant this, enjoying ourselves as "the enlightened", caring and "humane" society.
It's like in the movies when the bad guy, after a bloodbath he made, laughs and yells to the cops "Go on! Arrest me now. Throw me in jail! I need a vacation after all this work." And they do just that!!!!

For me it's simple on the most general level: If someone throws away the rules of a society he gets punished accordingly. When You take another human's life You get killed, end of story. It's not about revenge. It's a simple matter of protecting those who obey the rules, a simple matter of survival of the society. It's about NOT tolerating intolerance in the most extreme form.

And I don't buy the crap about offing some killer is more expensive than keeping him alive for 40 years or so. How many people have been found innocent though because of bigotry and prejudice? 

"a simple matter of survival of the society." You got that part right.  I agree that offing a killer is more expensive is BS. But how many were later found innocent, and found guilty because of bigotry and prejudice? Would an humane society do that? Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Nam

#50
Quote from: pioteir on August 02, 2014, 03:30:49 PM
And what about locking someone up for life? Isn't it also "wrong"? If a guy in Austria locks his daughter in the basement for 24 years it's considered wrong, but locking someone who killed another person is "justice"?

People consent to following laws where they live by following the laws. It's not: "Well, I agree to follow these laws but I won't those over there." If a person unlawfully keeps a person locked up for decades yet in that same period of time chooses to follow other laws to do so then they can't just disregard the laws they dislike. 

QuoteThe killer also has rights You know!

They do have rights. They have the right afforded to them by the laws of where they live/d.

QuoteWell what about the VICTIM'S right to live!?

How does that negate the killer's rights?

QuoteHow about a situation where the killer is caught red handed and is about to attack the policemen trying to arrest him? Should they shoot him? Should they try to apprehend him with their bare hands?

Broad, unimaginative, and without specifics.

QuoteThe truth is we as a society grant certain things in certain situations and we don't consider them as "wrong" under the circumstances (killing the attacker in self defence, cops killing the "bad" guys).

When someone dies by the death penalty it's still called a homicide. It's "legal" murder.

QuoteSo why is it so hard to kill a mass murderer caught red handed? As a civilized society we bring him to court, he gets a fair trial, gets sentenced and off with him. I'm not talking about cases where there are doubts or whatever. You hace a killer seen by couple people, the camera got his face as he was killing, the prints are on the knife or whatever. He's guilty as fuck.

I was waiting for you to bring up "civilised". I knew you would.

Would a civilized society really stoop to the same level as a murderer by then becoming murderers themselves? Is that truly justice?

The problem you have is those found "red-handed" is not the norm. If it were trials would be fewer but they're not. So, a civilised society pieces together evidence and places it in front of a judge/jury and then tries to convince them this is the person who committed the crime. And, much of the time they are the criminal however some of the time, they are not. So, you have innocent people on death row, and many times when it's found out they are innocent based on the laws of that particular area, many innocent people found they are innocent, are still executed.

Does a civilised society execute innocent people? Does a civilised society use the "eye for an eye" as their means of carrying out justice?

To you: yes.

QuoteThe second thing are the appeals. If the evidence is solid beyond any doubt and the killer doesn't give a fuck about the rules what's with the "he has rights" crap? He had rights BEFORE he killed the other guy. Again I'm not talking about some guy who stole some shit to eat and we need to cut his arm off.

Sure you are.

QuoteSo the appeals don't take decades and don't cost much.

Nonsense.

QuoteMy thought on the price of killing the killer could be a little more precise. I was referring strictly to the act of carrying out the sentence, not the decades of appeals and other "killer exercising his rights" type of stuff.

As for "How is locking them up for life not a manner of protecting society from such people?" I gotta ask: What happens when a killer kills another inmate? What then? Did we protect the other guy (who had just 2 days left of his sentence)? Why do I (a law abiding citizen) have to pay for a killer's housing, meals and activities (ping pong, trips to zoo, tv, game consoles or whatever)? Frankly I don't wanna. And if You consider the cost of a bullet... well You know what I want to say.

And this is how you are uncivilised.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Shiranu

QuoteFrankly I don't wanna.

Frankly, I don't want to pay for firemen to come and stop your house from burning down. I don't want to pay for your medical care when you get sick. I don't want to pay for highways in Idaho that I will never use.

Government spending ain't about what you "wanna or don't wanna" do, it's about maintaining a civilized society and I for one am very glad the government isn't based on the concept of, "I don't wanna!".

Quote...well You know what I want to say.

That you are an uncivilized barbarian living in the dark ages when it comes to this? Alright, fair enough. Thankfully society has progressed a bit further than you, even with all it's hold outs.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Gawdzilla Sama

Civilization? Great idea!  When do you think we will get one?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Nam

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Civilization? Great idea!  When do you think we will get one?

132 billion years from now.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Nam

Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Nam on August 02, 2014, 09:55:33 PM
FINE! 132 trillion years from now. Better?

-Nam
Okay, that's inside the window I've been picturing.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Nam

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2014, 10:03:26 PM
Okay, that's inside the window I've been picturing.

I hate you.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

aitm

meh. I like em dead. Never have to worry about looking under the bed or out the window or behind the tree. Dead is that society is positively protected, life in prison is society is probably protected. i prefer positively.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Nam

Quote from: aitm on August 02, 2014, 11:21:59 PM
meh. I like em dead. Never have to worry about looking under the bed or out the window or behind the tree. Dead is that society is positively protected, life in prison is society is probably protected. i prefer positively.

Yes, because only killers are under your bed, outside your window, and behind trees.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!