Hey all,
I want to share my religious experience with you in the hopes of getting some advice on how am I supposed to proceed.
My Theism:
I was brought up in a Muslim family. My parents didn't force me to practice Islam, but they exposed me to its core ideas.
Later on, I felt that I needed to develop my relationship with God. So, I became a devout Muslim. I gave up many things, for God, that I used to do that were regarded as sin. I loved God and I felt that He loved me back.
However, I slowly started to get back to some of my sinful habits of my past. I felt horrible for disobeying God in favor of Satan. Although I prayed for God's forgiveness and help, my sins where becoming more frequent with time.
I felt like a hypocrite for praying and, then, committing sin. Therefore, I stopped praying. I felt so guilty, and it was painful for me just to exist knowing that the Creator of the cosmos was angry with me.
What once was the source of my comfort became the source of my misery.
My Atheism:
Because I knew that God is all-knowing and all-seeing, I realized that I couldn't escape from God. I felt his anger at all times. I couldn't take it anymore. I just wanted an exit.
That was when I considered atheism as an option. I thought: No God -> no sin -> no guilt. Granted, I still believed in God at that point. I just wanted to stop believing in Him because He was the source of my misery.
However, I needed a reason to validate my position as to why I stopped believing in God. That was when I discovered evolution. I thought: If evolution is a fact, then God didn't create Adam and Eve. Therefore, Islam is false. [I know, now, that the belief in evolution doesn't require the disbelief in a God. However, I just needed something to validate my position]. I just ran with the idea.
Afterwards, I lost my faith, and I spent the next two years as an atheist. I became driven and happy for the first time after my emotional struggle with God. I was free from dogma, and I had nobody to tell me that I was wrong about anything. It was liberating.
Granted, I still asked myself this question every day: What if you're wrong? However, my knowledge of evolution always seemed to silence my doubts.
My Confusion:
Side note: It's ironic that many atheists, who were devout theists, have lost their faith by learning more about their religion.
(With this in mind, let's continue)
Recently, I came out as an atheist to my uncle, and, therefore, he challenged my position.
Since then, I realized that I didn't go through the process of de-conversion after investigating the claims of Islam. I didn't learn something new about Islam and went: This is irrational and unjustified. Heck, I've never, fully, read the Quran, and I don't know its stance on many subjects. Instead, I just rejected Islam. Therefore, I felt that I wasn't a legitimate atheist.
Now, I'd like to think of myself as a skeptic. Although, I might be the worst skeptic ever. I'm biased. I don't want to live a religious life anymore. Having a divine purpose for my life makes me depressed, and, deep down, I hope that there is no God.
My Struggle:
On the one hand, I'm scared to learn more about Islam. What if I found that that Islam is the true religion? Then what? I'd feel more arrogant for not following the rules, and, therefore, I'd feel guiltier than I ever did. I don't want that.
On the other hand, I can't conclude that Islam is a false religion if I don't investigate its claims.
Because of my fear of Islam being true, I've been looking up resources that only refute the Islamic claims. Moreover, I'm not looking for any resources for the Islamic case because I don't want to find out that Islam is the true religion. That's why I think that I'm the worst skeptic ever.
In any case, I feel that I have rational reasons to doubt Islam. But still, I'm not discussing my arguments with anyone in the fear of them being refuted.
I know. I may be as bad as the religious people who refuse to examine the arguments against their religion. For them, religion is their comfort blanket. For me, atheism is my comfort blanket.
What am I supposed to do now? Do you think that my atheism was justified? Any tips on how to proceed?
Sorry for this long post. I just wanted to release. Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I really appreciate it.
You have been brainwashed. This is the source of your confusion. You can't think your own thoughts, without having those delusions taught to you as a child pop into your head. But what if they are not delusions? What if they are? Will Allah punish me? Maybe he exists after all. But maybe he doesn't.
Yep, that's confusion.
Logic and religion cannot intersect. You can choose one or the other.
... Or maybe you can't. <maniacal laughter>
You are not an atheist nor have you ever been. You are at best an agnostic.
Start here.
http://falseislam.org/
Until you actually look at it and disprove it to yourself, you are nothing but confused.
And welcome.
"What if you're wrong?"
There's an awful lot of religions you can be wrong about. The choices are not limited to, "Islam or nothing." What if Christianity is real, and you're headed to Hell either way because you never believed in Jesus as the son of God? What if Buddhism is real, and your refusal to seek enlightenment is keeping you stuck in the cycle of life and death? What if Wicca is real, and you're worried over nothing because we're all headed for the Summerland anyway? What if Scientology is real? What if Greek paganism is real? What if any paganism is real? What if Hinduism is real? What if Shinto is real? What if Zoroastrianism is real? What if Judaism is real?
I could go on, but you probably get the point. There's nothing particularly special about Islam in the "what if you're wrong" department.
ConfusedSkeptic wrote:QuoteI loved God and I felt that He loved me back.
What an incredible story.
Maybe you should read Quran 4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Welcome to our forum. So you are afraid of God? This is what keeps you shackled to religion. Fear is the greatest power religion has over you. Until you can overcome your fear you will not be able to objectively analyze both sides of the issue. Religion will always have a foothold. You will continue to struggle with your confusion. Being afraid of death makes you afraid of life. It may take years for you to reconcile these issues.
It isn't your job to falsify Islam. If the burden of proof worked that way then you would have to falsify every possible god, which would be impossible. The ones saying Islam is the correct religion need to support that claim with evidence.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on February 27, 2015, 07:40:49 AM
Since then, I realized that I didn't go through the process of de-conversion after investigating the claims of Islam. I didn't learn something new about Islam and went: This is irrational and unjustified. Heck, I've never, fully, read the Quran, and I don't know its stance on many subjects. Instead, I just rejected Islam. Therefore, I felt that I wasn't a legitimate atheist.
It's not necessary to read the entire Quran or the entire Bible. Just read a few pages, and a rational person will soon spot bullshit. You can then reject such writings because they are not credible sources. Once you recognize bullshit, you don't need to keep reading more bullshit in an attempt to believe it's not bullshit.
This is not rocket science. When a source of information starts talking about angels, talking snakes, fantastic miracles, and people coming back to life, you should know that it's not talking about things that are real. If you still don't question the source, you're probably beyond help.
It sounds to me that Muslims suffer from the same mental afflictions as Christians. They both think that if you don't believe, the cure is to learn more bullshit. At some point in your life, you need to get off the merry-go-round and leave the bullshit behind. I spent a lot of my life on that merry-go-round searching for that little gem of knowledge that would turn bullshit into truth. It took me a long time to realize that trying to learn more only revealed more nonsense.
QuoteThat was when I considered atheism as an option. I thought: No God -> no sin -> no guilt. Granted, I still believed in God at that point. I just wanted to stop believing in Him because He was the source of my misery.
So, you weren't an atheist?
I'm sorry to say that, if this was an honest post, I don't think you'll find much resonance here. It's just that your post is pinacle of a strawman-version of atheism.
"You actually believe in God, you just want to sin." I can't speak for the others, but I sure as hell can't relate. Which, again not speaking for others, makes me sceptical seeing as you are the first person I've ever met who discribes himself as such a faux-atheïst.
I don't disbelief because I wish to sin. I lack belief because there's nothing to substantiate it.
Welcome, ConfusedSkeptic. You've received some good advice here so far. I'll reiterate that you should not be afraid of studying islam. Doing so with an open mind will probably alleviate your fears. Studying the Bible led me away from Christianity. The more I learned about the religion the less sense it made. As others have mentioned, religion's main hold on people is fear, and knowledge overcomes fear.
QuoteNo God -> no sin -> no guilt.
As far as I know, the concept of guilt does not exist in Islam.
Guilt is a Christian construct.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.Sahih Muslim Book 037, Hadith Number 6622.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on February 27, 2015, 07:40:49 AMMy Atheism:
Because I knew that God is all-knowing and all-seeing, I realized that I couldn't escape from God. I felt his anger at all times. I couldn't take it anymore. I just wanted an exit.
That was when I considered atheism as an option. I thought: No God -> no sin -> no guilt. Granted, I still believed in God at that point. I just wanted to stop believing in Him because He was the source of my misery.
That's not atheism. And definitely not the path to atheism, which typically involves doubts regarding religious dogmas and the existence of god. Theists are the god-fearers, not atheists.
QuoteHowever, I needed a reason to validate my position as to why I stopped believing in God. That was when I discovered evolution. I thought: If evolution is a fact, then God didn't create Adam and Eve. Therefore, Islam is false. [I know, now, that the belief in evolution doesn't require the disbelief in a God. However, I just needed something to validate my position]. I just ran with the idea.
Conclusion first, reasoning (and pretty bad reasoning at that) second. Again, this is how theists operate, not atheists.
QuoteAfterwards, I lost my faith, and I spent the next two years as an atheist. I became driven and happy for the first time after my emotional struggle with God. I was free from dogma, and I had nobody to tell me that I was wrong about anything. It was liberating.
Given your previous statements, this was not a genuine liberation.
QuoteGranted, I still asked myself this question every day: What if you're wrong? However, my knowledge of evolution always seemed to silence my doubts.
FFS...
QuoteRecently, I came out as an atheist to my uncle, and, therefore, he challenged my position.
Since then, I realized that I didn't go through the process of de-conversion after investigating the claims of Islam. I didn't learn something new about Islam and went: This is irrational and unjustified. Heck, I've never, fully, read the Quran, and I don't know its stance on many subjects. Instead, I just rejected Islam. Therefore, I felt that I wasn't a legitimate atheist.
Precisely. Except replace "legitimate atheist" with "atheist".
QuoteNow, I'd like to think of myself as a skeptic. Although, I might be the worst skeptic ever. I'm biased. I don't want to live a religious life anymore. Having a divine purpose for my life makes me depressed, and, deep down, I hope that there is no God.
That's not even remotely how skepticism works.
QuoteOn the one hand, I'm scared to learn more about Islam. What if I found that that Islam is the true religion?
I find it amusing that this is considered a plausible outcome.
QuoteBecause of my fear of Islam being true, I've been looking up resources that only refute the Islamic claims. Moreover, I'm not looking for any resources for the Islamic case because I don't want to find out that Islam is the true religion. That's why I think that I'm the worst skeptic ever.
I'm inclined to agree.
QuoteIn any case, I feel that I have rational reasons to doubt Islam. But still, I'm not discussing my arguments with anyone in the fear of them being refuted.
Again, this is not how skepticism works.
QuoteI know. I may be as bad as the religious people who refuse to examine the arguments against their religion.
For them, religion is their comfort blanket. For me, atheism is my comfort blanket.
This certainly seems to be the case.
QuoteWhat am I supposed to do now? Do you think that my atheism was justified? Any tips on how to proceed?
Read up on atheism and skepticism. Try again, this time from a position of intellectual honesty.
I'm not sure I understand this. You believed in God....but you wanted to NOT believe in him? That's a strange thing to say. Those who believe in God generally cannot even comprehend the idea of not believing in him, because it is so much a part of who they are. You might as well say that you wished you didn't believe in your mother's love.
So the question I have to ask is this: Do you, at this moment, believe in God, or do you not? If you do not accept the existence of God, or any gods, and realize that everything you were taught about him was just a bunch of lies made up by priests long ago for controlling the weak and the gullible, then you are an atheist. If you have accepted that you can't really know if there is a god or not based on what you have observed of the world around you, then you're an agnostic. If you still believe in God, then you're a theist. If that God is named Allah, then you're a Muslim.
Based on what you have said in what I shall assume to be a serious post and not some weirdly ineffective trolling, it seems to me that what you are really experiencing is a crisis of faith, or perhaps just some confusion about what, exactly, your religion teaches about things like sin and guilt. When you read the Quran, do you find yourself thinking, "That's not right," or "That's stupid," or "This makes no sense at all," or similar thoughts? When you ask your parents and other people to explain things to you, do their answers seem inadequate or evasive? When you pray, does it feel like nobody is really listening and that it's a waste of time? If you're having feelings like this, then you might be on your way to being an atheist.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on February 27, 2015, 07:40:49 AMBecause I knew that God is all-knowing and all-seeing, I realized that I couldn't escape from God. I felt his anger at all times. I couldn't take it anymore. I just wanted an exit.
Given that Allah, the Islamic God is the same Abrahamic God as the Jewish and Christian God, all of you being "people of the book," then you believe in a theistic God, who is, by your definition, "all knowing."
But this brings up
a fundamental contradiction in the nature of God (http://infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/incompatible.html) (among many others):
If God/Allah is truly ALL knowing, then he is powerless to change anything he's always known he would do or not do, so he cannot be free. So either he is all-knowing or he is free, but he cannot be both. If he is not either of those then he cannot be the theistic type of God, though he could be some lesser god that hasn't the omnimax attributes.
If a being with such conflicting attributes cannot logically exist, then I posit that such a being does not, in fact, exist. So we needn't keep trying to come up with excuses why we don't believe. We have logic on our side, even if Spock is dead.
I suspect that the OP is bogus.
A confused Christian might have written it, but not a Muslim.
I have read quite a few ex-Muslims testimonies, and this is not remotely resembles one.
I wonder if he/she will reply.
Thanks all for your comment. I will respond and explain myself soon. I've been busy.
SGOS:QuoteWhen a source of information starts talking about angels, talking snakes, fantastic miracles, and people coming back to life, you should know that it's not talking about things that are real.
Religious people explain such events as acts of God. God can do anything. I know that, for such events, one must have faith because there's no way of verifying that these events happened. Religious people usually add: I believe that the Quran is the word of God, and God doesn't lie. Therefore, I'm justified in believing these events.
Mr.Obvious:This is an honest post, and I owe you some clarification.
Quote"You actually believe in God, you just want to sin."
Yes, when I first "considered" atheism as an "option", I still believed in God at that point. However, I didn't
want to sin. In fact, I hated sin, and I prayed for God's forgiveness and help all the time (which didn't seem to work). So, I didn't
like sin, I just couldn't help myself but to commit it. Eventually, praying and committing sin made me feel hypocritical and guiltier.
Because my guilt made me miserable, atheism provided a solution to this problem. I understand that, in my case, atheism wasn't the result of a rigorous process of critical thinking. Rather, I now came to realize that my "atheism" was an emotional reflex. I didn't realize that during the two years when I thought that I was a real atheist.
I'd like to add: During the time when I thought that I was an atheist, the sins that caused my emotional reflex became a part of my lifestyle. Now, I like this lifestyle, and that makes me question my religion because believing in Islam would require me to rid myself from sinful actions. This makes me afraid of finding out that Islam is true because it means that life, as I'd like it to be, would be over.
Hydra009I agree with you. I guess it's liberating to realize my real situation.
ApostateLois:QuoteYou believed in God....but you wanted to NOT believe in him? That's a strange thing to say. Those who believe in God generally cannot even comprehend the idea of not believing in him, because it is so much a part of who they are.
Yes, that's true. Again, God became the source of my constant fear and guilt. It wasn't a pleasurable experience for me anymore.
Quoteit seems to me that what you are really experiencing is a crisis of faith, or perhaps just some confusion about what, exactly, your religion teaches about things like sin and guilt.
Now, I guess that I'm having a crisis of faith. I've realized that I've never questioned my beliefs. My reasons for believing in Islam included:
- God is self-evident. Just look around you
- God must be one. Otherwise, the universe wouldn't be orderly
- The Quran is preserved and inimitable. Therefore, it's miraculous, and it's the word of God
- The Quran reveals scientific facts long before they were discovered
- The bible is corrupted. Therefore, it's not God's word
- I felt and/or knew that God was real through my personal relationship with Him (through prayer and little signs)
Regarding sin and guilt, Islam teaches that God is forgiving and the most merciful of those who show mercy. Therefore, he would forgive people when they ask for his forgiveness. However, one should thrive to stop committing sin for his/her repentance to be true (which was something that I couldn't do). That's my understanding of the subject.
QuoteWhen you read the Quran, do you find yourself thinking, "That's not right," or "That's stupid," or "This makes no sense at all," or similar thoughts?
Yes, I've made such observations recently. Basically, my reasons for doubting Islam now include:
- Still, evolution contradicts creationism
- Many scientific verses have been thoroughly debunked
- Many verses are compatible with a geocentric worldview
- Some verses are wrong or insensible
- There were some variants of the Quran. So, it might not have been perfectly preserved
- Some verses can be improved to become clearer. So, is the Quran perfect?
- The discrimination against women
- Slavery
- The relationship with women slaves and Muslim men
- Some personal thoughts like: Is God's test fair? Why does a self-sufficient God not only creates, but demands worship?...
Note: I didn't research all of the above ideas thoroughly yet. I may be wrong regarding Islam's stance on many of them. I still need to look more into my criticisms.
QuoteWhen you ask your parents and other people to explain things to you, do their answers seem inadequate or evasive?
I've engaged with some of my relatives about my personal thoughts (philosophical questions). Their answers weren't "sophisticated". However, I didn't engage with the clergy about the doubts I'm having regarding the Quran. Honestly, I'm scared of being refuted by them because they're more professional than my relatives (which is why I think that I'm the worst skeptic ever). I'm gathering my strength to get over this fear.
QuoteWhen you pray, does it feel like nobody is really listening and that it's a waste of time?
When I was devout, I felt that God was listening to my prayers. It's ironic that, with time, I started to doubt the power of prayer regarding certain matters. For example, I thought: I don't have to pray to God to pass an exam. I just need to study, and I'll pass. On the other hand, if I pray all day instead of studying, then I'll not pass the exam.
pr126:QuoteI suspect that the OP is bogus.
I don't know what OP stands for. I'm knew to this forum thing.
OP = Opening Post, first post of the thread.
QuoteThe bible is corrupted
Prove it. When, Where, How, Who did it and why.
Where are the original uncorrupted scripts to compare?
.
QuoteThe Quran is preserved and inimitable. Therefore, it's miraculous, and it's the word of God
Prove it. No circular reasoning.
QuoteThe Quran reveals scientific facts long before they were discovered
Don't embarrass yourself. There is absolutely no science in the Quran.
What there is, is foolishness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Jp_XCvVto
I was told that the bible was corrupted, and this was a part of my belief system. It never occurred to me to question this statement. I just believed it. The only thing that I know is that the bible was written by people inspired by God (not God Himself). So, it's prone to corruption.
As for the Quran, Muslims claim that it is the literal word of God. They also claim that the Quran has been preserved, is eloquent beyond human capacity, is inimitable (in style, content,...), contains no contradictions and reveals scientific facts long before they were discovered. As far as I know, this is the evidence put forth for the divine origins of the Quran.
Also, the Quran challenges the unbelievers to produce a chapter like it in Arabic (the claim that the Quran is inimitable). If they can, they'll prove that the Quran isn't God's word. Moreover, the Quran, boldly, asserts that the unbelievers will not meet this challenge. Personally, I don't know the criteria by which the challenge will be measured, and I don't know if this criteria is objective.
In addition, I found a website (www.suralikeit.com) that has 12 chapters, written in Arabic, that attempt to meet the Quran's challenge. Personally, I think that it's close. My only comment is that the chapters are written to ironically mock Islam. So, if believers we're to read one of these chapters, they would notice that it's not the Quran because the chapters preach commands that contradict what Muslims believe (again, ironically). Also, I can't verify if these chapter-attempts comply with the linguistic features of the Quran because I don't know what the criteria is.
The quran does not want you to question or think for yourself.
Quran 5:101-102
O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
A people asked such [questions] before you; then they became thereby disbelievers.
Why do you think this is in the Quran?
QuoteSome personal thoughts like: Is God's test fair?
If Allah knows all that there was, is, or will be, why is there a need for a test?
You see, if you turn away from Islam, it is the will of Allah, not yours.
Quran 2:213, 10:25, 13:27, 14:4, 22:16, 24:35, 24:46, 24:56.
Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.By logic, if Allah is all knowing, he must already know what YOU will do, before you are born.
I find the idea of saying the quran has scientific fact in it when your prophet rides to the moon on a magic flying horse.. well it jiggles my man titties.
pr126:
Regarding Quran 5:101-102, I looked up its interpretation. From what I understood, the verse was revealed to tell the believers to obey the commands of God (pilgrimage) without asking further questions (like: Is pilgrimage an annual or a once in a lifetime command). Therefore, I don't think that it applies to all kinds of questions. Another example, I guess, would be the 5 prayers. Don't ask questions like: Why 5 and not 3 or 10? Just obey. That's my initial understanding of it.
As for God's test, I agree. I just had some thoughts from a different angle, and I want to expand on this idea in a new thread in the future. In addition, this is an argument that I'm putting forth against a belief in a fair God.
Also, please note that I'm not arguing for Islam nor against it. I'm trying to assess its claims.
Munch:
Again, many people would justify such a belief by saying that it is an act of God. So, from their perspective, it's possible that the prophet flew on a winged horse to heaven.
This is an older post of mine that you may find helpful:
QuoteAfter some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.
I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/Q_as_God.jpg)
An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god,
even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him.
You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.
It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.
Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.
The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA), while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.
Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.
tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.
QuoteAlso, please note that I'm not arguing for Islam nor against it. I'm trying to assess its claims.
I'll help you with that.
ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabab, the Taliban, are practicing pure Islam, according to the Quran, and Sunna, following the prophets footsteps to the letter. (Quran 33:21)
That is what Islam teaches.
Read Sirat al Rasool by Ibn Ishaq to find out about the prophet of Islam.
Anyone that doesn't question authority that is ambiguous to the extreme deserves to be conflicted. First of all you have to believe like a small child that magic is real, and that others are smarter than you because you don't really understand what they are saying because it makes no sense at all, so you believe them based on faith without evidence that is reliable---you might as well believe in Santa and the Easter bunny. What you want is absolute knowledge that only religion claims to have with God, Allah, or whatever else H claims to be. Religion pretends to have knowledge when all they have is ignorance and speculation for their lack of knowledge that we all have.
Atheism doesn't provide any knowledge of the unknown, and never will. All we can do is seek the truth, and the best method is science, and not philosophy or religion that is based on superstitious nonsense and authority that pretends they know the truth based on other authority that does, and so on. So you are confused, so what? There are too reasons for confusion, being stupid, or trying to understand nonsense. If you don't understand religious nonsense and question it, you are not stupid, so what does that tell you?
You will not find knowledge in religion, only good and bad feelings, as well as confusion, because it is mere speculation with God, or Allah, giving comfort to yourself if you don't question it and the authority backing it up. Just because something makes you feel good doesn't mean it is the truth, anymore than having a guardian angel. And it also opens the terrifying possibility that demons exist. Religion is a very childish belief system in my opinion. "When I was a child I behaved as a child, I played like a child. Now that I'm a man I have given up all childish things." Solitary
pr126:
You seem to know Islam well because you keep referring me to what the Quran says. I'm curios to know if you are an ex-Muslim.
Solitary:
I've heard a famous Muslim apologist say that science isn't the only way to arrive at truths, and he associated those who do think so with Scientology. He argued that philosophy is also a good way to arrive at truths. Can you explain why do you disagree?
QuoteYou seem to know Islam well because you keep referring me to what the Quran says. I'm curios to know if you are an ex-Muslim.
I am an atheist, and have been all my life.
I have studied Islamic theology and history for many years.
To find out about Islam, visit here (http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/)
ConfusedSkeptic wrote:QuoteGod must be one. Otherwise, the universe wouldn't be orderly
Why do you think so?
Because you have heard it, so it must be true?
The Sun is half way trough it's life cycle.
When all the nuclear fuel is used up, it will expand to a red giant, engulfing earth, burning it to a cinder.
All organic life will be extinct.
The Andromeda Galaxy is racing towards our own galaxy and will collide with it eventually.
Look at the Virgo Super cluster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgo_Supercluster) We are part of it.
(http://www.spacedaily.com/images/cosmology-virgo-universe-desk-1024.jpg)
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 01, 2015, 12:15:41 PM
I've heard a famous Muslim apologist say that science isn't the only way to arrive at truths, and he associated those who do think so with Scientology. He argued that philosophy is also a good way to arrive at truths. Can you explain why do you disagree?
Of course you did, because he is a Muslim apologist, so he is either a Muslim himself or another believer is unfounded religious babble.
And scientology.. lol, just because they called it scientology doesn't mean the cult is about science.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 01, 2015, 09:03:42 AM
- God is self-evident. Just look around you
That is an excellent point. And I've had many Christians tell me the same thing. My advice is also the same. Do look around. Go into your back yard or the nearest park and simply look at nature. Does that reflect your god? I really has to, since that is the claim--god created all, and nature is part of the 'all'. So, what do you see in your backyard? A setting of beauty, is it not? Sure is. But look at that spider over there--spinning it's web to catch dinner. Does not kill the creature that wanders or flies into it, but stuns it, wraps it up and saves it for later--alive. Then slowly sucks it dry as it slowly dies in agony. Yes, one of god's creatures. Or the fleas that you have a hard time seeing, that are waiting for you to sit still long enough, or for your dog or cat to come along so it can hitch a ride and suck some blood. Throw in a tick or two for good measure. Or the mites that you cannot see, who like to burrow under your skin--they take up so little room and are one of gods creatures. Or maybe the tapeworm in the soil that simply wants to share a little of your or your pets colon space to help with your food digestion. Or.........well, you get the picture. Nature, full of wonder and beauty. And also stark raving horror! All natural and created by your god--or some god. Does that reflect a warm, loving, fair, just god? The child born with the spine on the outside of his body--that is a reflection of your god? It has to be, for that can only be called an act of god.
So, yes, take a good look around and tell my that that reflects your god. If it does, do you really want anything to do with such a being or entity? I don't.
@ ConfusedSceptic
Here is Quran 9:111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
Could you please tell me what this verse means to you?
No hurry, when you have time.
pr126:QuoteWhy do you think so?
The argument is that all the objects of the cosmos (planets, stars, galaxies, ...) follow consistent patterns. This indicates order, design and wisdom, and it eliminates chance. Moreover, it's also said that the universal constants are fine-tuned for life. Again, a coincidence?
Concluding that God must be one from the above argument is based on the following reasoning: If there were multiple Gods, then an orderly universe is impossible. That's because the wishes of the Gods would've overpowered each other which would've lead to chaos. Instead of chaos, we observe order. So God must be one. I read this argument in an book a long time ago.
As for Quran 9:111, this is what I make of it:
Even if death is a possibility, you should live, and struggle, for God's cause because, eventually, God rewards His believers with heaven. Am I missing something that you wanted to get across?
Mike Cl:I don't know what to say. An answer might be: Death is part of life, and that's how God wants things to be.
(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Captain-Picard-Facepalm.jpg)
Heres the thing, you are trying to argue intelligent design to the cosmos in how it works. What you don't seem to understand is that the reason we are aware of the workings of the cosmos and how it works, how planets move, how stars form, how they die, how galaxies merge together, is only understand because of human development in the understanding of these things based on observation, mathematics and how we, as human beings, regard these things as they stand.
There is no higher power that makes this stuff happen, there is only our understanding of it, and even in that, we as a single species on a tiny blue planet, have only scratches the surface of that understanding.
Need i remind you that centuries ago, this how how humankind viewed the world.
(http://likeobscurevainefforts.com/flatearth1.jpg)
And yet science and discovered proved this was false, because despite what people viewed back then, it was because of progressive thinking that allowed people to view the world more clearly, the same reasoning that allowed mankind of launch into space, and see themselves our earth is round (or oval whatever is agreed upon).
making the claim that the only way you can make sense of the order of the universe is by intelligent design, that is like believe when your on a high that you can levitate above the ground because your brain tells you so, but it isn't happening.
Planets rotate around a huge force of gravity because of the universes own natural order, forces working against one another, in the cases of gravity and how they repel one another.
Heres an experiment for you, go take two magnets, and try and push them together, notice the force of those magnets repel one another? That is the same principle as to how planets stay in rotation to the suns that rotate around, the same force that when a star dies it collapses in on itself with such pull it creates a black hole.
yet, instead of appreciating the understanding of what we have discovered in the cosmos because of scientific understanding, you believe 'gawd dun it'. Yeah, well god was been the method of healing nuns have used on dying women in their hospitals for centuries, while medical science found cures to save people WITHOUT PRAYER OR GOD WORSHIP. And between the two, who has had the more success rate of saving lives, the nuns and there prayer, or the doctors who work to save people, not praying for them to stop being sick.
Mike Cl:
I don't know what to say. An answer might be: Death is part of life, and that's how God wants things to be.
[/quote]
Yeah, CP, you do know what to say. You just don't want to say it. How trite--'death is part of life'--no shit, charlie! From the moment we are born, we are dying. No escape. So, why did you creator god create a system in which getting from birth to death is filled with so much pain and suffering? My conclusion is that your creator god is a Sadist for the highest (lowest) form! He had within his power to create a system that did not require us to kill to live; a system that was fair and balanced. Yet he chose not to. If your creator god exists, then he created the universe just as he wanted. It is all on him and not on his creation. That just makes sense. Oh, I keep forgetting--your faith does not allow you to really think--only parrot what you have been told. That's okay--it's your life.
Death is part of life. Yep, sure is.
Before me or my brother was born, my mum and dad had there first child, who from the age of 2 developed cancer in his eye which had to be removed and replaced with a glass eye.. growing up with people looking at him funny because of this stigma.. and then at age 12 the cancer returning and my mum having to watch her son die before her.
Where's your so called merciful God in that scenario?, where's your merciful loving God when my mum had to bury her child, and for years after phased between contemplating suicide.
You know what saved her in the end? It wasn't God, mum said she even prayed to God back then for her son to live, but he didn't. No, what saved mum wasn't your fairy tale cunt sky daddy, your made up fairy tale because you can't face reality without him. What saved her was medical science, man-made discovery into artificial insemination, something your Bullshit religion has always been against. She had my older brother and then me from that, I'm alive here because of that kind of medical breakthrough.
Your religion did nothing to help my mum in her darkest moment, your stories of a loving God did nothing. It took her own strength of will, and clinical science to help her move on.
QuoteAs for Quran 9:111, this is what I make of it:
Even if death is a possibility, you should live, and struggle, for God's cause because, eventually, God rewards His believers with heaven. Am I missing something that you wanted to get across?
Well, let's have another read:
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.I have highlighted the words you have replaced with "struggle"
slain and are slain that means, that to get a sure ticket to Allah's celestial whorehouse, you have to kill and be killed for him.
Your reward for murdering other humans for Allah in this verse is promised.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 02, 2015, 09:03:14 AM
But look at that spider over there--spinning it's web to catch dinner. Does not kill the creature that wanders or flies into it, but stuns it, wraps it up and saves it for later--alive. Then slowly sucks it dry as it slowly dies in agony. Yes, one of god's creatures. Or the fleas that you have a hard time seeing, that are waiting for you to sit still long enough, or for your dog or cat to come along so it can hitch a ride and suck some blood. Throw in a tick or two for good measure. Or the mites that you cannot see, who like to burrow under your skin--they take up so little room and are one of gods creatures. Or maybe the tapeworm in the soil that simply wants to share a little of your or your pets colon space to help with your food digestion.
Reminds me of some old girl friends.
Quote from: Desdinova on March 03, 2015, 12:30:44 PM
Reminds me of some old girl friends.
The spider or the tape worm???
Hi,
I am new to this forum..been here about 10 minutes. I was a devout christian for 32years and have gained common sense and realized their is no god 2 years ago, since then i've been living in Objective Reality .Having read your post I can conclude that you're still a religious person, you have not given your thought process the proper chance. You dont have to prove to yourself that their is no god. Start with no conclusions at all gather evidence and conclude from the evidence you collected. Read and re-read your koran. If you're really searching for the truth without bias then you'll find it. You have to live in Objective reality to see the truth.
nodelusions:
Thanks for your advice. It's tough. I've become non functional. I'm constantly thinking about these issues (when I wake up, in the bus, in class) I'm not sleeping well, and, often times, I sleep with the fear of waking up in hell. Other times, I wake up with with the fear that there is no god (for real).
I've accepted that I can't escape the truth (whatever that may be). Maybe I just need a break. I need to learn how not to be gullible because I don't want to be tricked into a religion. Then, I plan to put the claims of Islam to these logical tests. So, my plan is to learn about logic and logical fallacies first.
I'll try to avoid confirmation bias (the one that I have for atheism), but I know that that's going to be tough as well. Recently, I've been thinking: What's the worst case scenario (i.e. if I concluded that Islam is true)? I'm a good person. All I need to do, in addition to being myself, is to follow some rules and strip out some habits to be a devout Muslim. I'll learn to live with that if it'll lead to my salvation. That's my attempt to eliminate my confirmation bias.
Confused Skeptic:
I can empathize, because I went through some of that conflict, but not nearly to your extent. It sounds like an absolute nightmare. I'm hating religion right now. No one should have to endure that kind of brainwashed suffering and torment.
I feel horrible for what you are going through. Perhaps this might help ease you. When I first started doubting in God I was scared. I was also taught that God is merciful and loving. To my mind, a merciful and loving God would not put ANYONE in hell no matter how horrible they have been. That is true love right? So for years I spent my nights going over in my head whether God was real or not (even before I actually started to research this). I eventually came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter if I believe in God because since God is all loving he will forgive me. Years later I became even more comfortable with this idea and started actually looking at the evidence and a few years later became an atheist. Now I'm starting to become an anti-theist.
Just start by believing that that all loving God that you believe in will forgive you no matter what decision you come to. It helped ease the fear when I was starting out. From there you will hopefully get the courage to move forward.
QuoteJust start by believing that that all loving God that you believe in will forgive you no matter what decision you come to. It helped ease the fear when I was starting out. From there you will hopefully get the courage to move forward.
Allah is not an all loving god. Allah is a god who hates. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Who-Hates-Courageous-Inflamed-ebook/dp/B003GWX8T4/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1425877399&sr=1-1&keywords=the+god+who+hates)
A psychopath, Muhammad's alter ego.
Somehow, most religions seem to be able to mouth the words "loving God", while at the same time describing a vengeful prick. In fact, I clearly remember the words "God of vengeance" from my religious upbringing. True, some families believe God is loving, while other families seem to prefer the concept of a God of vengeance. Both descriptions were used in my upbringing at the same time. It makes no logical sense for God to be both, except when you hear this over and over starting at a young age, and then you make yourself believe the two qualities exist together.
I think Airdhale nailed this when he says "Just start by believing that that all loving God that you believe in will forgive you." This is where it was at for me, although when I told myself that, I did have a feeling I was engaging in wishful thinking or rationalizing to sooth myself. But if you remove the fear and emotion from God being both at the same time and look at it logically, you have to allow that an all loving god will forgive. If he won't, he cannot be all loving.
In the end, for a perfect God that's "all everything", he has to be 100%. You don't have to prove every aspect of such a god to be false to negate him. If only one thing in his words or the usual holy book assigned to him is in error, you can safely disregard his perfection as bullshit. A perfect god wouldn't get it wrong, and he would not be illogical. When error and logical fallacy exists, it is obviously the work and writing of men, ignorant men. After that, any claims about a god, and claims for his nature become null and void, the fabrications of the delusional minds of mortal men attempting to gain power, wealth, or to simply sound important.
These behaviors are so ingrained in man's competitive nature, that it becomes the most likely explanation for the concept of God. Man needs to be important so much that he will actually claim he has a personal relationship with a god and he can describe God in great detail. Oddly, he believes that this all powerful god, created man in his own image. Now talk about a crock of nonsense. It's unbelievable that so many people internalize this nonsense.