If there is no God. Then someone explain life.

[g2perk]

You have it backwards. People didn't believe BECAUSE God hardened their hearts.

John 12:40 - "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turnâ€"and I would heal them."

The intent of God is made clear here. He hardens the hearts of unbelievers because he doesn't those he didn't predestine for Heaven to turn to him and be healed.

John 6:65 - "He [Jesus] went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.'"

You talk about context, but I gave you the context for this one. Jesus said that those who followed him would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to get into Heaven. He gave no explanation to this message, but he said it knowing that many of his followers would be disgusted and leave at the thought of participating in cannibalism. "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them" means exactly what it sounds like. The only ones who can come to Jesus, according to the Bible, are those God enables to come to him. All others are predestined for Hell.

I can understand why you are confused but not every word in the new testament to to be taken literal. Some things are an analogy to God's word. He did this so that readers can get a worldly explanation of a biblical meaning. This is by Mr. Piper and it explains the versus that we are speaking of:

The day before, Jesus had fed 5,000 people with a few loaves and fish. Then that night he walked miles across the Sea of Galilee before catching up with his disciples in their boat. The crowd had seen him send his disciples away in the only boat available. So the next day, when they found him in Capernaum, they knew he could have only got there miraculously. They wanted him to be their king.

Then he went and ruined everything. To his adoring fans Jesus said,

Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal (John 6:26-27).

Confused, they asked him how they could work to please God. He replied, “This is the work of God, that youbelieve in him whom he has sent” (John 6:29). (God isn’t looking for workers. He’s looking for believers.)

Jesus was a hero to the crowd because he had fed them. But Jesus discerned something very wrong about their enthusiasm. They wanted more “bread from heaven.”

But wanting the blessings Jesus provides is not the same thing as believing in him. Indeed, Jesus had come to give them bread from heaven. But not that kind of bread.

So to test them he began to make statements that sounded very strange. He told them that he was the true bread from heaven that gives life to the world and whoever eats this bread would live forever.

Then he said, “And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh” (v. 51).  This sounded like cannibalism. His listeners balked. He pressed it even further:

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink (John 6:53-55).

The “Jesus for King” campaign evaporated. The people walked away shaking their heads. The crazy man wants us to eat his flesh! They completely misunderstood what Jesus was saying.

So what did he mean? Here are the clues:

How do you labor for the food that endures to eternal life? Believe in me! (v. 27, 29)“I am the bread of life; whoevercomes to me [in faith] shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.” (v. 35)“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (v. 40)“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoeverbelieves has eternal life.” (v. 47)

For Jesus eating is believing; drinking isbelieving. He promises eternal life to those who believe in him. Believe what?

Believe that his deathâ€"the breaking of his body and spilling of his bloodâ€"pays in full the penalty for our sin and that his perfect righteousness is freely given to us in exchange for our unrighteousness.

Believing this is how we “eat” Jesus’ flesh and “drink” his blood. This is why he instituted the Lord’s Supper: he did not want us to forget the very core of what we believe.

When the crowd took offense at his gruesome talk, Jesus exposed their unbelief: “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe” (vv. 63-64).

Let’s you and I be like Peter. He didn’t walk away, but instead said to Jesus, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we havebelieved, and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God” (vv. 68-69).




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[g2perk]

You have it backwards. People didn't believe BECAUSE God hardened their hearts.

John 12:40 - "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turnâ€"and I would heal them."

The intent of God is made clear here. He hardens the hearts of unbelievers because he doesn't those he didn't predestine for Heaven to turn to him and be healed.

John 6:65 - "He [Jesus] went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.'"

You talk about context, but I gave you the context for this one. Jesus said that those who followed him would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to get into Heaven. He gave no explanation to this message, but he said it knowing that many of his followers would be disgusted and leave at the thought of participating in cannibalism. "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them" means exactly what it sounds like. The only ones who can come to Jesus, according to the Bible, are those God enables to come to him. All others are predestined for Hell.

This another excerpt from the same pastor on your second question. Why no one can come to the father except through Him.

What Is Controversial

The controversial part is: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” One reason it’s controversial is that, if you simply take the verse as it stands, it could mean two different things.

On the one hand, it could mean that no one can come to Jesus without God’s drawing, and God draws everyone, but only some come. So God’s drawing doesn’t cause the coming; it only makes the coming possible. And then the one who comes provides the decisive impulse, or cause.

Or, on the other hand, it could mean that no one can come to Jesus without God’s drawing, and everyone whom he draws does come because God’s drawing infallibly produces the coming. This would mean that the Father only draws some since all don’t come, and that the decisive cause of the coming is God, not man.

To try to understand what Jesus really meant, let’s get the context before us.

The Context

Jesus is teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum (verse 59), and the resistance to his teaching is increasing. Here at the beginning of our text (verses 41â€"42), Jesus’ audience is grumbling about what he has said: “So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ They said, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, “I have come down from heaven”?’”

Jesus has said in essence in verses 33 and 35 and 38 that he is the Bread of God sent into the world to give life to the world, and if we will come to him and believe on him, and feast on all that God is for us in him, and find our soul’s satisfaction in him, we will live forever and he will raise us on the last day.

Growing Resistance

But instead of getting more and more clarity and more and more agreement, Jesus is getting more and more resistance. This resistance in verse 41 is called grumbling. And the content of their grumbling is that what he says doesn’t fit with what they think they know about him. “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?” In other words, he can’t be from heaven, because he’s from earth. We know his parents.

So the words of Jesus about himself collide with human perceptions and human reasonings about what is possible. “You can’t be from heaven, because our eyes and ears and minds tell us you are from earth.” And so they resist what Jesus says. That’s the nub of their grumbling.



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[widdershins]

Ok. As for as witches your on your own my friend. When people read the bible most come up with their own conclusions. The bible is both for everyone only those who want something much greater than themselves. I guess haven't read any of proverbs right. There is all the wise quotes you can stand and then some. The bible was intended to help those in need. Not by giving you what you as for but by giving a person what the need. Again it may not be for you. As for as the laws go. They are principles for us believers because it shows us the error of our ways. When I say adultery is wrong its because I know what it causes on the back end. Heartache and pain. And it may have been legal then but I promise you this that man with all those wives caught hell.

Okay, that's quite a backtrack there.  You went from "YOU follow its rules" to "CHRISTIANS follow its rules".

As for people "wanting" something much greater than themselves, that you want it bad enough to believe in it doesn't make it exist.

I don't deny that you can find some "wise quotes" from the Bible.  You can find some from Hitler too.  Every idiot on the planet eventually says something intelligent, and the Bible says a lot.  There are some pretty shitty parts of the Bible too mixed in with those "wise quotes".  For instance, the Bible talks about the difference between your reward on Earth and your reward in Heaven, saying if you get your reward on Earth you won't get one in Heaven.  But when it comes to punishment, THEN it's okay to get both.  It's almost as if the people writing it themselves did not believe in eternal punishment, so they felt the need to deal out punishment in this life.

You said yourself, people get what they want out of the Bible.  If you're looking for salvation, you'll find it there.  If you're looking for justification to kill someone, you'll find it there.  If you're looking for a good reason to hate someone, you'll find it there.  There was no real "purpose" for the Bible originally.  It is a group of unrelated religious texts thrown together by the Catholic church, then trimmed down by the protestant church.  Hell, if you're not Catholic then your Bible breaks one very important rule about not adding one word or taking one away.  Seven books were removed.  But people today read the Bible for a purpose.  If that purpose is to find salvation, you'll likely find it.  If it is justification for some heinous act or attitude, you'll likely find it.  Purpose is assigned by the reader, not some higher power.  It's easy to find what you want in it.  Want a reason to hate someone?  Read the Old Testament.  Want to tell someone why they have to forgive you?  That's in the New Testament.  Want to kill someone?  Old Testament.  Want to feel superior to others?  New Testament.  Want to stop giving tax dollars to the poor?  Just pretend it's in there.  The Bible is so bloated and rambling nobody will ever know.

[g2perk]

Okay, that's quite a backtrack there.  You went from "YOU follow its rules" to "CHRISTIANS follow its rules".

As for people "wanting" something much greater than themselves, that you want it bad enough to believe in it doesn't make it exist.

I don't deny that you can find some "wise quotes" from the Bible.  You can find some from Hitler too.  Every idiot on the planet eventually says something intelligent, and the Bible says a lot.  There are some pretty shitty parts of the Bible too mixed in with those "wise quotes".  For instance, the Bible talks about the difference between your reward on Earth and your reward in Heaven, saying if you get your reward on Earth you won't get one in Heaven.  But when it comes to punishment, THEN it's okay to get both.  It's almost as if the people writing it themselves did not believe in eternal punishment, so they felt the need to deal out punishment in this life.

You said yourself, people get what they want out of the Bible.  If you're looking for salvation, you'll find it there.  If you're looking for justification to kill someone, you'll find it there.  If you're looking for a good reason to hate someone, you'll find it there.  There was no real "purpose" for the Bible originally.  It is a group of unrelated religious texts thrown together by the Catholic church, then trimmed down by the protestant church.  Hell, if you're not Catholic then your Bible breaks one very important rule about not adding one word or taking one away.  Seven books were removed.  But people today read the Bible for a purpose.  If that purpose is to find salvation, you'll likely find it.  If it is justification for some heinous act or attitude, you'll likely find it.  Purpose is assigned by the reader, not some higher power.  It's easy to find what you want in it.  Want a reason to hate someone?  Read the Old Testament.  Want to tell someone why they have to forgive you?  That's in the New Testament.  Want to kill someone?  Old Testament.  Want to feel superior to others?  New Testament.  Want to stop giving tax dollars to the poor?  Just pretend it's in there.  The Bible is so bloated and rambling nobody will ever know.

Ok first let me ask you are wanting to know what the bible means about the things you are taking from It are you trying to discredit it. Let me know so I can help you to understand it.

I'll just say this. The bible is no ordinary book, you cant just pick it up and read the words then think you understand enough to have a debate about it. It doesn't work like that. Every letter in the bible was written to people in certain areas who had different cultures which in turn had different meanings of words. Like I said true understanding of this book comes with knowing Gods will for his people. If the soul reason you read this book is to go back a debate another person and to try and find untruths then you will never understand.

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[Solomon Zorn]

 

[Mr.Obvious]

Ok first let me ask you are wanting to know what the bible means about the things you are taking from It are you trying to discredit it. Let me know so I can help you to understand it.

I'll just say this. The bible is no ordinary book, you cant just pick it up and read the words then think you understand enough to have a debate about it. It doesn't work like that. Every letter in the bible was written to people in certain areas who had different cultures which in turn had different meanings of words. Like I said true understanding of this book comes with knowing Gods will for his people. If the soul reason you read this book is to go back a debate another person and to try and find untruths then you will never understand.

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This might sail right past you... In fact, given your trackrecord here, it most likely will. But you are pretty much, if I understand your english, saying that you need to know the Bible is a holy book and that you have to know God's will before you can understand the Bible correctly and see it as evidence. So you must know your conclusion before the bible can attest to it.
So how do you know what God's will is? Let me guess. It's what the Bible teaches?

[g2perk]

This might sail right past you... In fact, given your trackrecord here, it most likely will. But you are pretty much, if I understand your english, saying that you need to know the Bible is a holy book and that you have to know God's will before you can understand the Bible correctly and see it as evidence. So you must know your conclusion before the bible can attest to it.
So how do you know what God's will is? Let me guess. It's what the Bible teaches?

How else would I know, if I was not taught.

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[PickelledEggs]

By the way you are answering my thread. If you can't handle it stay away.

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This thread is open to members of the forum. By posting a thread... that is asking a question, nonetheless, you are by default inviting all members to take part in discussion. If you do not feel comfortable with that, maybe a forum is not the place for you.

[Mr.Obvious]

How else would I know, if I was not taught.

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And it does not bother you that that piece of circular logic holds no more sway than that of any other religion and their sacred texts? Which is none, to an outsider at least.

[PopeyesPappy]

I'll just leave this here...

[widdershins]

Ok first let me ask you are wanting to know what the bible means about the things you are taking from It are you trying to discredit it. Let me know so I can help you to understand it.

What an arrogant thing to say.  YOU are capable of understanding the Bible while I am not without YOUR help?  Please!

I am simply stating that, as you, yourself said, the reader gets what he wants out of it.  Your exact quote was, "When people read the bible most come up with their own conclusions."  Christians like to act like there's some mysterious meaning that can be easily understood if you only believe it means exactly what they think it means.  But I can guarantee you that if you passed out questionnaires among your congregation with, say, 25 tough questions, but questions which you believe have a definite answer, you won't get 2 back with all the same answers.  The actual "meaning" has been lost with time.  Meaning is now assigned by the reader.  There are a thousand rules in the Bible and you follow a small fraction of them.  Don't eat pork?  That was for the Jews.  Kill all witches?  Different time.  Concubines?  Let's pretend God didn't set that up.

You, like all Christians, pick and choose which rules to follow.  Hell, you don't even register among the smarter Christians I've talked to because you thought that our laws were based on the Ten Commandments when you first got here, never realizing that of the Ten there were two criminal complaints, one which could be criminal or civil under very specific circumstances (bearing false witness is only a crime when you're lying under oath or filing a false report or it could be defamation) and one civil (adultery is a civil matter, not criminal).  That leaves six, more than half, that have no laws based on them under any circumstance, seven if you accept that the "false witness" thing is really just an artifact of breaking OTHER laws.

I'll just say this. The bible is no ordinary book, you cant just pick it up and read the words then think you understand enough to have a debate about it. It doesn't work like that. Every letter in the bible was written to people in certain areas who had different cultures which in turn had different meanings of words. Like I said true understanding of this book comes with knowing Gods will for his people. If the soul reason you read this book is to go back a debate another person and to try and find untruths then you will never understand.

I find it really sad that you don't see the problem with that.  You have to believe it AND THEN it makes sense?  Do you even realize where else that logic applies?  The Heaven's Gate, the Branch Davidians, the followers of Charles Manson...  In ALL those cases what they believed was crazy to an outsider, but if you already believed it, THEN it made perfect sense.  Your beliefs follow the same rules as EVERY CULT EVER.

The reality is that this belief is just a defense mechanism for your beliefs.  There is nothing so mysterious about the words in the Bible that you need magical powers granted by God to understand them.  And if that were true, why isn't there only one Christian church?  Do you think Catholics don't want to go to Heaven?  Jehovah's Witnesses don't really believe they're going to Paradise Earth?  Pentecostals?  Lutherans?  Mormons? Baptists?  They ALL think they've found God.  They ALL try to do what they believe he wants.  And there are people in ALL of those religions who would change religions in a heartbeat if they believed that God wanted them to.  It's not their religion which is important to them, it's their God and if they knew what he wanted they WOULD do it.  Without even reading one word of the Bible this shows that your belief is just bullshit.  All these people worship God the best they know how, yet they haven't been granted any great, singular "understanding" which lead them all to the one true religion.

So what is this belief of yours?  It's a way for you to dismiss anything I say without having to consider or examine it.  When I say something you disagree with, you KNOW I'm wrong.  You probably don't know HOW I'm wrong, but you know I am.  This is very fundamental psychology, a self-defense mechanism to hold onto beliefs which are important to you even when presented with evidence that they are false.  I could take you back in time and show you the entire history of the universe and it wouldn't change your mind.  I could show you that the Jews were never enslaved by the Egyptians.  I could show you that Jesus, if he existed, either did not rise from the grave or faked the whole thing.  I could show you that every miracle in the Bible either didn't happen or was faked.  Assuming ALL of those things were true and I PROVED it, it would not change a thing in your head.  You would simply assume I was an emissary of Satan sent to trick you with my tricky trickiness because you KNOW none of those things are true and no amount of evidence is ever going to change that.

I used to be like you.  I am so glad I grew a brain and stopped letting others tell me what was real.  At the end of the day you really have only ONE reason to believe what you believe; because someone says it's true.  Be it your pastor, your parents or the Bible, every word is hearsay.  You didn't get a single reason to believe until AFTER you already believed...just like the followers of David Koresh, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite.

I really hope some day you gain the ability to think for yourself, but it's not likely.  It's simply easier to believe you have all the answers already than to go looking for them.

[trdsf]

Yes I can say its true for me.  What do you believe in. Don't say anything because if that was true you Would not be wasting your time here. There is only two choices on this earth that matters. Believe or Don't Believe. And I promise you , you are one are the other.

"True for me" is not the same as "objectively true".  You could assert that 2+2=5 was 'true for you', but good luck building a house on mathematics like that, because reality will have a few surprises for you and your 'truth'.

Of course I believe in some things that have not yet been either demonstrated or disproved.  I believe there are other sentient species in this galaxy, perhaps as many as six to eight.  I believe it on the basis of what we know about abiogenesis and evolution and the frequency of planetary systems.

I do not assert that they really are there.  That has not been demonstrated.  It's only possible, not even necessarily probable.

This is the fundamental difference between 'belief' and 'truth'.  However much I think I'm right, however eloquently I might argue my position, however I want it to be true, I cannot say that it is true.  It would be dishonest to say "It is" rather than "I believe it is, and it might not be anyway", and while I have my faults, being a liar or hypocrite is not among them.

[g2perk]

What an arrogant thing to say.  YOU are capable of understanding the Bible while I am not without YOUR help?  Please!

I am simply stating that, as you, yourself said, the reader gets what he wants out of it.  Your exact quote was, "When people read the bible most come up with their own conclusions."  Christians like to act like there's some mysterious meaning that can be easily understood if you only believe it means exactly what they think it means.  But I can guarantee you that if you passed out questionnaires among your congregation with, say, 25 tough questions, but questions which you believe have a definite answer, you won't get 2 back with all the same answers.  The actual "meaning" has been lost with time.  Meaning is now assigned by the reader.  There are a thousand rules in the Bible and you follow a small fraction of them.  Don't eat pork?  That was for the Jews.  Kill all witches?  Different time.  Concubines?  Let's pretend God didn't set that up.

You, like all Christians, pick and choose which rules to follow.  Hell, you don't even register among the smarter Christians I've talked to because you thought that our laws were based on the Ten Commandments when you first got here, never realizing that of the Ten there were two criminal complaints, one which could be criminal or civil under very specific circumstances (bearing false witness is only a crime when you're lying under oath or filing a false report or it could be defamation) and one civil (adultery is a civil matter, not criminal).  That leaves six, more than half, that have no laws based on them under any circumstance, seven if you accept that the "false witness" thing is really just an artifact of breaking OTHER laws.
I find it really sad that you don't see the problem with that.  You have to believe it AND THEN it makes sense?  Do you even realize where else that logic applies?  The Heaven's Gate, the Branch Davidians, the followers of Charles Manson...  In ALL those cases what they believed was crazy to an outsider, but if you already believed it, THEN it made perfect sense.  Your beliefs follow the same rules as EVERY CULT EVER.

The reality is that this belief is just a defense mechanism for your beliefs.  There is nothing so mysterious about the words in the Bible that you need magical powers granted by God to understand them.  And if that were true, why isn't there only one Christian church?  Do you think Catholics don't want to go to Heaven?  Jehovah's Witnesses don't really believe they're going to Paradise Earth?  Pentecostals?  Lutherans?  Mormons? Baptists?  They ALL think they've found God.  They ALL try to do what they believe he wants.  And there are people in ALL of those religions who would change religions in a heartbeat if they believed that God wanted them to.  It's not their religion which is important to them, it's their God and if they knew what he wanted they WOULD do it.  Without even reading one word of the Bible this shows that your belief is just bullshit.  All these people worship God the best they know how, yet they haven't been granted any great, singular "understanding" which lead them all to the one true religion.

So what is this belief of yours?  It's a way for you to dismiss anything I say without having to consider or examine it.  When I say something you disagree with, you KNOW I'm wrong.  You probably don't know HOW I'm wrong, but you know I am.  This is very fundamental psychology, a self-defense mechanism to hold onto beliefs which are important to you even when presented with evidence that they are false.  I could take you back in time and show you the entire history of the universe and it wouldn't change your mind.  I could show you that the Jews were never enslaved by the Egyptians.  I could show you that Jesus, if he existed, either did not rise from the grave or faked the whole thing.  I could show you that every miracle in the Bible either didn't happen or was faked.  Assuming ALL of those things were true and I PROVED it, it would not change a thing in your head.  You would simply assume I was an emissary of Satan sent to trick you with my tricky trickiness because you KNOW none of those things are true and no amount of evidence is ever going to change that.

I used to be like you.  I am so glad I grew a brain and stopped letting others tell me what was real.  At the end of the day you really have only ONE reason to believe what you believe; because someone says it's true.  Be it your pastor, your parents or the Bible, every word is hearsay.  You didn't get a single reason to believe until AFTER you already believed...just like the followers of David Koresh, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite.

I really hope some day you gain the ability to think for yourself, but it's not likely.  It's simply easier to believe you have all the answers already than to go looking for them.

I will start with the first statement. No I don't think you understand the bible. Not one bit. How can you understand it? Everything you have said about it is wrong.You read it at face value not ever knowing its worth.

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[aitm]

3. Read Genesis 1 God said the Earth was already in existence it was for me and it was empty.

It also says the sky is water…yeah….yer god is a not really smarter than a 5th grader...

[g2perk]

It also says the sky is water…yeah….yer god is a not really smarter than a 5th grader...

You seek proof another one that doesn't understand

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