Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inevitability that you have to make peace with.
it is inevitable but is it a bad thing or a good thing, or is death just happen and holds no connotation
What is better than an eternal state of repose where even your dreams can hurt you.
It is a release where you can disappear without remorse.
Death isn't negative, it simply is a portal to the unknown.
For better or for worse.
It is exactly whatever connotation you attach to it. My sister's death was a blessing for many reasons. My brother's was not for many reasons.
Im sorry for your loss mate
dtq123, interesting take
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:42:54 PM
it is inevitable but is it a bad thing or a good thing, or is death just happen and holds no connotation
Yes, it's negative for the people who love the person who died. Very negative. Depending on how someone dies, it can be pretty damn negative for the person in question, too. As it is now, I have no desire to die, so if I knew I was going to die, I would not be terribly happy about it.
Biologically, it's negative as well. Organisms evolve so that our first instinct is self-preservation.
Right now in my life, death is a positive. I'm talking about a personal death, not ones loved ones. Life is consciousness existence and experience. and death is no consciousness and experience in my opinion, but the finality is problematic. We are fucked! :eek: :pidu: Live, and there is no room for death, but there may be a lot of pain and suffering. Solitary
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:42:54 PM
it is inevitable but is it a bad thing or a good thing, or is death just happen and holds no connotation
Is life a good thing or a bad thing?
It simply is. What you do, and what the world does to you, is what determines if it is "good" or "bad"... as well as your own personal interpretation of those two concepts.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:42:54 PM
it is inevitable but is it a bad thing or a good thing, or is death just happen and holds no connotation
What Shiranu said. Sometimes things don't have to necessarily be good or bad. Somethings just happen.
I'm with the last two posts above. Death is neither good or bad. I'm talking about the state of matter that is dead, or as the person who is in that state. However, situations leading to that state are subject to personal interpretation and circumstances involved. But being dead is probably the least consequential thing a sentient being experiences. It's the experience of no experience.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
Define negative.
What do you mean by "bad thing"?
not positive and not neutral
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 10:19:44 PM
not positive and not neutral
Okay, and what is "positive" and what is "neutral"?
positive is uplifting/good, and neutral may as well be nothing
what are you getting at? this isn't a debate, its a question
I am personally indifferent to the idea of no afterlife because i will probably know what that is like, because if there is no afterlife, I can't process it because I don't exist anymore
Death is neutral. The life that precedes it is what carries the label of "good" or "bad." When this life transitions to death, we refer to that transition as good or bad, depending on how we labeled life. The state of being dead receives no real label or much attention at all. The finality of death is understood to be unchanging and is the inevitable conclusion of all life.
that was poetic
So if I killed you it would be a neutral thing.
Good to know.
I consider death a negative. I consider a person's life to have inherent value and when someone dies something unique is lost from the world never to be replaced. A birth is a positive, the person adds to the world and human experience, and death is a negative because the world literally loses something that cannot be replaced.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 23, 2015, 07:30:04 AM
So if I killed you it would be a neutral thing.
Good to know.
I consider death a negative. I consider a person's life to have inherent value and when someone dies something unique is lost from the world never to be replaced. A birth is a positive, the person adds to the world and human experience, and death is a negative because the world literally loses something that cannot be replaced.
In the long term, perhaps. But in a situation like my sister who has outlived one of her children and whose other child is a vegetable unable to even attend her funeral, not so bad. The last time I met her when she was lucid she told me that she would rather be with the loved ones beyond than a burden to people in this life. She was constantly in pain and constantly on meds- this a woman who in her life was very capable and useful, reduced to being nothing but useless in her own eyes.
I am a very active 65 year old man who cares for a woman with physical needs. She occasionally tells me she is sorry to be such a burden, though in truth she isn't. But we both have discussed what we would do in life ending situations. I for one refuse to be a burden to anyone. Should I outlive my wife, I would take my own life rather than be a burden on society or my children.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 11:31:34 PM
positive is uplifting/good, and neutral may as well be nothing
what are you getting at? this isn't a debate, its a question
I am personally indifferent to the idea of no afterlife because i will probably know what that is like, because if there is no afterlife, I can't process it because I don't exist anymore
I know it is a question, but you still need clearly defined terms. If you do not have clearly defined terms, then your question means absolutely nothing.
The point I am trying to get at is that what is "good" and "bad" is all relative and opinionated. There are no real goods or bads, only relative ones.
Death doesn't exist accept for the living, just like it was before you were born. I see it as problematic because I am alive and have the will and desire to live, and when that is gone, I will be gone also in any form. Is that a negative, or positive? After what I've been through in life, I think it is more positive than negative being alive, but after life it is nothing. Even people in German prison camps fought for their lives as long as they didn't loose the will to live. I think it is easy to die, and very hard to live because we are aware of being mortal and will put up with almost anything to stay alive. In the movie Genghis Cahn he is about to rape a woman and she says she would rather die---He gives her his sword. :eek: They were happily married after. Solitary
No, death is natural. If it wasn't for death, there could be no evolution. While there's generally no need to hasten it, there's no need to fear it either.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
If death is oblivion, as I think it is, then it's the default state, and this life is just a very brief interlude in that ongoing oblivion. It's neither good nor bad, it just is.
You were dead for over 13 billion years. Then you lived. You'll be dead a lot longer than that. Enjoy what you have while you have it, it's a miracle you're here at all.
No, no. In my 70 or 80 years of life, I have become so important that it is only natural that I would live on. This is why humans, unlike animals, are given souls. We are that important to the universe. OK, OK, I'll admit that there doesn't seem to be any evidence for my existence before I was born, but once I was conceived, I became a holy thing that would live forever in Heaven, but only if I accepted Jesus as my savior. Or else I would go to Hell. It has to be the way it is. There can be no other explanation.
Quote from: SGOS on March 14, 2015, 07:42:46 AM
No, no. In my 70 or 80 years of life, I have become so important that it is only natural that I would live on. This is why humans, unlike animals, are given souls. We are that important to the universe. OK, OK, I'll admit that there doesn't seem to be any evidence for my existence before I was born, but once I was conceived, I became a holy thing that would live forever in Heaven, but only if I accepted Jesus as my savior. Or else I would go to Hell. It has to be the way it is. There can be no other explanation.
So, you are the soul reason the universe exists?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2015, 07:53:52 AM
So, you are the soul reason the universe exists?
Yes, why else would I exist? OK, granted, the universe did just fine without me before I was born, but I don't really know that existed before then. All I have are books on history and geology. But now that I'm here, everything changes, doesn't it? I've become a part of a greater plan, and without me, what would be the point of a plan?
Quote from: SGOS on March 14, 2015, 08:37:24 AM
Yes, why else would I exist? OK, granted, the universe did just fine without me before I was born, but I don't really know that existed before then. All I have are books on history and geology. But now that I'm here, everything changes, doesn't it? I've become a part of a greater plan, and without me, what would be the point of a plan?
I would agree that you are the reason for your personal universe. And we can extrapolate from there that ending you will end the universe that is important to you. However, I just keep the last scene from "Men In Black" in mind.
I haven't watched MIB for such a long time, but I vaguely remember a shot of the memory flasher going off. Was that the last scene?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2015, 07:53:52 AM
So, you are the soul reason the universe exists?
Oh, shit. It took me having to read this post twice, but I finally got it. Duh.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PMThe premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
It is not all that, SGOS, that is coating it with sugar. It is non-existence, dissolution, extinction. We should be brave enough to accept as things are. I am also in my 70s.
Ceasing to exist could also be expressed as the negation of existence. After death you will eventually decompose, leaving a gap in human reality. That's negative.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:42:54 PM
it is inevitable but is it a bad thing or a good thing, or is death just happen and holds no connotation
death just is. Like the universe. It just is. It does not care what you feel or think about it. It just is. Death is like that. It just is. What you think about it is totally up to you. Really, there is no 'good' or 'bad'--there are events that just are. And you then, have to create your own good and bad. For me death is bad when it causes me to grieve. And it is good when it releases someone from pain and suffering. But those are labels I have to define and then apply myself. For me, death just is--and I'm okay with that.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 30, 2015, 09:38:51 PM
death just is. Like the universe. It just is. It does not care what you feel or think about it. It just is. Death is like that. It just is. What you think about it is totally up to you. Really, there is no 'good' or 'bad'--there are events that just are. And you then, have to create your own good and bad. For me death is bad when it causes me to grieve. And it is good when it releases someone from pain and suffering. But those are labels I have to define and then apply myself. For me, death just is--and I'm okay with that.
But no matter the absolute indifference of reality ... you are not indifferent ... you are far more interesting than billions of useless galaxies. So when you experience something that is subjectively bad for you, or you are trying to avoid something that is subjectively bad for you ... you don't tell yourself ... "it just is" ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on October 30, 2015, 11:11:23 PM
But no matter the absolute indifference of reality ... you are not indifferent ... you are far more interesting than billions of useless galaxies. So when you experience something that is subjectively bad for you, or you are trying to avoid something that is subjectively bad for you ... you don't tell yourself ... "it just is" ;-)
Thanks for finding me interesting--not everybody does. Yes, when I experience something that is subjectively bad, it is bad. Otherwise, I'd not call it bad. But what is bad for me may not be so for anybody else. But I don't care since it is bad for me. Of course I try to avoid anything that is subjectively bad for me--but the reality is that I cannot control that all that much. So, when something bad happens to me I know that it is bad--but the ultimate truth is that it just is. And the sooner I can come to terms with that idea, the sooner the bad stops influencing me. As Forrest says--shit happens--good shit, bad shit---it's up to me to figure out which is which and what to do about it.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
Death is negative because it subtracts from the population. Birth is positive because it adds to the population. Did I just over-simplify this?
As for silence and peace.......I can get that from a quiet place with a good book. Don't need to die.
I think it rather depends of how it pertains to us. For instance, death to someone else is the end of their life and we can see it and feel it and have emotional responses. But personally, there is only life. We cannot understand what nothing feels like since we have never felt "nothing". We cannot (at least I cannot) remember anything prior to birth, which includes feeling, and most likely we cannot know what nothing feels like when we die. So, imo, the reality is we only understand living. We can only live. We will not even know when we die as once living becomes death we will not know the line has been crossed. There is the idea of death, we understand what it means, but we cannot experience it. And to be "brought back to life" is not to be dead.
Mike CL ... I do care about you and what you think ... though not in a gay fashion ;-) That is why I followed you here, though that isn't the only reason why I stay ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2015, 11:29:27 AM
Mike CL ... I do care about you and what you think ... though not in a gay fashion ;-) That is why I followed you here, though that isn't the only reason why I stay ;-))
I was always interested in your comments and commentaries on the ORT board. Kept me coming back to that place even after years of being away. I always thought you'd like this place and the grand cast of characters that frequent this place. I know I do.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 31, 2015, 11:47:30 AM
I was always interested in your comments and commentaries on the ORT board. Kept me coming back to that place even after years of being away. I always thought you'd like this place and the grand cast of characters that frequent this place. I know I do.
If you knew me face to face, you would know that even I don't know what is coming out of my mouth before I hear it myself. And we have similar scholarly interest in why the Bible isn't literal. When we come back years later, sometimes when we read something we wrote way back then, it seems like someone else wrote it. In my case, I want to have that experience, immediately ;-))
It's only negative when I think of those who have died, and didn't live their lives to their potential. Or they were too afraid to attempt their dreams. A life not fully lived, is worse than death. (IMO) We will all die someday, and we don't know when or how...so make the most of the life we have, while we have it.
I agree with your last sentence.
But to imagine that everyone is a failure who didn't become Dr Jonas Salk ... really? And being disappointed is a part of growing up (in so far as we fail to live up to our own measurements, let alone the imagined measurements of others).
I never said that Baruch. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Your life's attempt at living life to the fullest will be different from mine...I'm not suggesting everyone is the same.
So tired of people putting words in my posts that I don't post. I'm starting to think it's so the person feels superior when arguing against a negative I never said.
Quote from: Deidre32 on November 01, 2015, 11:33:18 PM
So tired of people putting words in my posts that I don't post. I'm starting to think it's so the person feels superior when arguing against a negative I never said.
No, it is a completely normal way of checking that they understood what you write. It is like a control question. Discussion on by posts will always be below the minimum information threshold really needed so we need to guess what the poster wanted to say and that guess is what we reply to.
So it is rather a case of "never attribute to malice what can be caused by incompetence" were the incompetence is a more of a result of the medium (internet forum), not necessarily the poster.
Deidre32 ... my apologies for choice of words in my implication. And I still hope for a clarification. Like Jeopardy, I should have phrased as a question ;-)
So what is a person's potential? I don't know except on an individual basis, and not even then ... it is a mystery to me.
So what does it mean to "not live up to"? This is a mystery to me also. I take this personally, as the father of a handicapped child.
Though we are both in agreement, that in general we hope the best in individual self development for everyone. If life not fully lived is .. hell ... then relative to some arbitrarily high standard, we are all in hell.
But I agree, that feeling sad for those who have passed ... because their story has ended, and they won't have further opportunities ... is genuine and shared ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on November 01, 2015, 10:45:44 PM
I agree with your last sentence.
But to imagine that everyone is a failure who didn't become Dr Jonas Salk ... really? And being disappointed is a part of growing up (in so far as we fail to live up to our own measurements, let alone the imagined measurements of others).
For me, it's not about saving the world. I just don't want to be lying on my death bed feeling like dumb ass because I couldn't figure out what the point of my life was. If you go out struggling with such a simple question, you've probably missed a shit pot full of good things you could have done.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
It's negative for those of us who must live without those who are missed, but it's as much the necessary machinery of life as birth when it keeps populations sustainable. As for me, I don't dread my own death so much as I fear the misery of a declining, painful, and increasingly dependent life which has unfortunately been the way of it for most who have gone before in my family. Death itself is a relief from all manner of pain and suffering. Not everyone can be prosperous, and some will suffer terribly from their disadvantages - this is the cruel way of natural selection, but at least there is no evidence to believe that the losers are further punished after death. In death, all of us are equal, no matter how the living treat your corpse - no smugness, and also no regrets.
Even for ancient Egyptians, equality in death, was considered Hell. You were supposed to keep your status in the afterlife, comparable to the one you had in this life.
Without death the earth might become slightly over crowded ..The only solution then would be to put an end to birth.
As it is now we have both birth AND death going on at the same time. Is that any way to run a planet?
Quote from: SGOS on November 02, 2015, 07:59:39 AM
For me, it's not about saving the world. I just don't want to be lying on my death bed feeling like dumb ass because I couldn't figure out what the point of my life was. If you go out struggling with such a simple question, you've probably missed a shit pot full of good things you could have done.
People don't come with an instruction manual. Parents are not always helpful. But yes, one can answer such a simple question. I have, though it took me 50 years. There are way too many distractions. Experience living and struggling with the lives of other people, is part of the necessary input. You can answer your own version of this question too. Every little bit of salvation (the secular kind) helps.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 02, 2015, 11:07:56 AM
Without death the earth might become slightly over crowded ..The only solution then would be to put an end to birth.
As it is now we have both birth AND death going on at the same time. Is that any way to run a planet?
According to evolution ... yes. Your body is just a means for your gonads to produce more gonads ;-)
I probably sound uncaring, but in the case of my dad's wife, an utterly useless human being who wouldn't lift a finger to do a damned thing for herself much less anyone else and who since marrying my dad has made his life about as miserable as anyone can I just don't see the downside to death. Unfortunately she'll probably outlive him only to make everyone who has to take care of her lives even more miserable.
Don't get me wrong. I don't wish her any harm, but if she were to expire in her sleep today I wouldn't lose one bit of sleep over it.
Quote from: Baruch on November 02, 2015, 11:10:52 AM
According to evolution ... yes. Your body is just a means for your gonads to produce more gonads ;-)
I've long since given up on the idea of producing new gonads. I produced two that I know of and that was over 30 years ago. Oddly enough those gonads grew arms and legs and one of them never grew even one gonad.
Quote from: Baruch on November 02, 2015, 06:54:58 AM
Deidre32 ... my apologies for choice of words in my implication. And I still hope for a clarification. Like Jeopardy, I should have phrased as a question ;-)
So what is a person's potential? I don't know except on an individual basis, and not even then ... it is a mystery to me.
So what does it mean to "not live up to"? This is a mystery to me also. I take this personally, as the father of a handicapped child.
Though we are both in agreement, that in general we hope the best in individual self development for everyone. If life not fully lived is .. hell ... then relative to some arbitrarily high standard, we are all in hell.
But I agree, that feeling sad for those who have passed ... because their story has ended, and they won't have further opportunities ... is genuine and shared ;-)
It's okay.
I meant that we shouldn't hold ourselves back...by fear. Most people hold themselves back due to fear than actual circumstances. And that's a sad reality if we get to the end of the road and we are lucky to live to be 100, but spent a lifetime not living to our potential. Potential being ...not holding one's self back from opportunities that present themselves, due to fear. I could have elaborated lol So there you go. Hope that clarifies what I meant. :)
Yes ... that was not only a good clarification, but I agree. My primary help I can give my daughter, who lives too far away from me to give her a hug, is to help her overcome fear of her handicap and fear of failure. Fortunately she is working hard on both of those. She isn't the most worst off person by any means ... but life has already been harder on her than it was on me growing up. My responsibility for both negative and positive aspects of that .. is a gauge to my present action.
Quote from: Baruch on November 02, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
Yes ... that was not only a good clarification, but I agree. My primary help I can give my daughter, who lives too far away from me to give her a hug, is to help her overcome fear of her handicap and fear of failure. Fortunately she is working hard on both of those. She isn't the most worst off person by any means ... but life has already been harder on her than it was on me growing up. My responsibility for both negative and positive aspects of that .. is a gauge to my present action.
((hugs)) You sound like a good dad.
We are all dying every single moment of our lives. At least part of us is as some cell is dying and something else is being born. I do not know how that can be bad. And death itself is really a mirage. Better call it transformation than death as none of the component elements actually disappear!
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 20, 2017, 02:53:51 PM
We are all dying every single moment of our lives. At least part of us is as some cell is dying and something else is being born. I do not know how that can be bad. And death itself is really a mirage. Better call it transformation than death as none of the component elements actually disappear!
Something critical to me dies when I do--otherwise I'd never die. Just because one has all the components of something does not mean one has that 'something'. Things must be combined correctly for that 'thing' to exist. And death is not just a transformation--it is death---period.
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on February 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Is death a bad thing? I have mourned the loss of friends, family, and mentors. But is death negative.
The premise being death is ceasing to exist; silence, peace, the end, or whatever you want to call it.
I don't see "death" as negative at all. It is, after all, the default state that we all came from, and will all return to. It may not be fun, but it isn't negative, in my opinion.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 20, 2017, 05:43:49 PM
I don't see "death" as negative at all. It is, after all, the default state that we all came from, and will all return to. It may not be fun, but it isn't negative, in my opinion.
Not negative--it just is.
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 20, 2017, 02:53:51 PM
We are all dying every single moment of our lives. At least part of us is as some cell is dying and something else is being born. I do not know how that can be bad. And death itself is really a mirage. Better call it transformation than death as none of the component elements actually disappear!
Can't give you a like yet. No Intro. But I am quoting you, and giving you a ... kudo!
Yes, the notion of life and death, are oversimplifications. But for most ape men, we can't get too complicated about things.
BTW - G-d is a verb, not a noun, a Becoming, not a Being ... and that fits in exactly with what you just wrote.
Too many variables involving death to declare good or bad..
Charles Manson for example..how many of you are going to mourn his death vs say..your grandma or the little kid next door?
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 24, 2017, 12:50:21 AM
Too many variables involving death to declare good or bad..
Charles Manson for example..how many of you are going to mourn his death vs say..your grandma or the little kid next door?
I'll pass ... I consider his life to be net-negative.