Did Jesus ever exist?

[popsthebuilder]

I have the simplest one of all: you finally got around to taking responsibility for yourself and your behavior.  Crediting your turnaround to a supernatural source is selling yourself short.  As for what happened to the radio?  I don't know.  I can only assume that it happened to go out at that time -- radio stations (and I have done radio, so I know) experience 'dead air' all the time.  The transmitter blows a fuse, the engineer throws the wrong switch, there are any number of reasons a radio station might fade out and none of them require supernatural interference.

And coincidence isn't as uncommon as people think.  Weird things happen all the time, and that's only because you have billions of events happening to billions of people.  With numbers like that, something weird has to happen to someone somewhere.

Also, I have to say, disabling a radio seems a pretty picayune and mundane 'miracle' for an allegedly all-powerful entity to pull off.  It's vastly more likely that you assigned meaning to it in retrospect, and that it faded out for perfectly physical reasons.

No...I have always taken responsibility for my actions. It was indifference that plagued/ plagues me, and a very deep seeded hatred for self and low self esteem. A predisposition or inclination to self defeating behavior or tendencies.

The new knowledge of GOD did motivate me in a wholly new and previously unknown manner though, having completely replaced pain and anger with joy and hope and even knowledge. Even now, in my oft knowing misdirection and slow descent into old familiar territory, I do find hope and joy pretty much solely in the truth of GOD and the promises.

The radio didn't "go out" it rather slowly faded out. At which time I noticed and adjusted the knobs....auxiliary knobs.   They would not have rebounded to the same spots at the end of the event even if the car battery had been disconnected and reconnected. If it was a malfunction or human error then the broadcaster might have at least apologized for the brief lapse in signal or what have you.

Show me evidence for coincidences, then for random chance....I'll wait...

Who said the radio was the miracle?

The miracle was taking a dead man and changing him into a new vessel for life with potential for benefit towards all, while technically changing nothing, but simply bringing unknown things to light for said individual. I do credit GOD for all things, but that isn't to say that I am not a willing participant, as all are free to choose there own actions and even thoughts to some extent.




faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

I see your cherrypicked verses that vaguely seem sort of related to the subject and raise you a long list of verses that clearly show that god does not give a damn about free will, nor that he grants it to anyone:

Genesis 50:18-21 - His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.

But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don't be afraid. I will provide for you and your children." And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord works out everything to its proper end,
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Proverbs 16:9 - In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the LORD establishes their steps.

Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 20:24 - A person's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand their own way?

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things."

Isaiah 45:8 - "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it."

Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

Luke 18:24-27 - Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

John 6:35-39 - Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

John 6:44,63-65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

..."The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you, they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

John 8:42-47 - Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 10:25-30 - Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 12:37-40 - Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

"He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn, and I would heal them."

John 13:18 - I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: "He who shared my bread has turned against me."

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit; fruit that will last, and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

John 17:1-2 - After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

John 17:6-9 - "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."

Acts 4:27-28 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:10-21 - Not only that, but Rebekah's children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls, she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Romans 11:7 - What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 - "Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things, and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God; that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."

Ephesians 1:4-6 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will; to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Ephesians 1:11-12 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-5 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions; it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 - For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 - But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:8-10 - Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

James 1:18 - He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

James 2:5 - Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

1 Peter 1:1-5 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 2:7-8 - Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

"The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"

and,

"A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."

They stumble because they disobey the message; which is also what they were destined for.

Revelation 17:8 - The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Revelation 17:17 - "For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God's words are fulfilled."

What are you getting at exactly?

Are we talking about free will?

It is the will of God for man to have free will.

Conundrum solved

faith in selfless unity for good

[Blackleaf]

What are you getting at exactly?

Are we talking about free will?

It is the will of God for man to have free will.

Conundrum solved

faith in selfless unity for good

Your claim has no Biblical basis. In fact, as the verses in the post you replied to show, it states quite the opposite on a number of occasions. According to the Bible, you make plans for your life, but God is the one who decides your destiny. God decides if he wants you or not, and only lets you obtain faith if he chooses you as one of his elect. The Bible says, "Well, God made us, so who are we to complain?" What a weak excuse for a tyrant to predestine the majority of humanity to an eternity of torment in hell.

Science is against you on this one too. There's a reason it's called the "nature vs nurture debate." Our decisions are the result of a combination of biology and environmental factors, not a magical self-driving force that can be called "free will." It's even been demonstrated that choices could be predicted several seconds before a person even is consciously aware that they have made their decision.

So no. No conundrum solved. If you want to claim that God gave us free will, and that he respects our free will and never violates it, you're going to have to admit that you have no authority to make such claims. You believe it because you want to believe it. The Bible and science are against you on this one.

[popsthebuilder]

Your claim has no Biblical basis. In fact, as the verses in the post you replied to show, it states quite the opposite on a number of occasions. According to the Bible, you make plans for your life, but God is the one who decides your destiny. God decides if he wants you or not, and only lets you obtain faith if he chooses you as one of his elect. The Bible says, "Well, God made us, so who are we to complain?" What a weak excuse for a tyrant to predestine the majority of humanity to an eternity of torment in hell.

Science is against you on this one too. There's a reason it's called the "nature vs nurture debate." Our decisions are the result of a combination of biology and environmental factors, not a magical self-driving force that can be called "free will." It's even been demonstrated that choices could be predicted several seconds before a person even is consciously aware that they have made their decision.

So no. No conundrum solved. If you want to claim that God gave us free will, and that he respects our free will and never violates it, you're going to have to admit that you have no authority to make such claims. You believe it because you want to believe it. The Bible and science are against you on this one.

Absolute bull shit.

Why don't you check and see if we are told to choose anything in the bible. Now use your brain. Freedom of choice is.....Freewill....Good job.

Freedom of choice describes an individual's opportunity and autonomy to perform an action selected from at least two available options, unconstrained by external parties.[1][2]

In lawEdit

In the abortion debate, for example, the term "freedom of choice" may be used in defense of the position that a woman has a right to determine whether she will proceed with or terminate a pregnancy.[3][4][5] Similarly, other topics such as euthanasia,[6] contraception[7]and same-sex marriage[8] are sometimes discussed in terms of an individual right of "freedom of choice." Some social issues, for example the New York "Soda Ban" have been both defended[9] and opposed[10] with reference to "freedom of choice."

In economicsEdit

[https://upload]

The freedom to choose which brand and flavor of soda to buy is related to market competition.

In microeconomics, freedom of choice is the freedom of economic agents to allocate their resources as they see fit, among the options (such as goods, services, or assets) that are available to them.[11][12] It includes the freedom to engage in employment available to them.[13]

Ratner et al., in 2008, cited the literature on libertarian paternalism which states that consumers do not always act in their own best interests. They attribute this phenomenon to factors such as emotion, cognitive limitations and biases, and incomplete information which they state may be remedied by various proposed interventions. They discuss providing consumers with information and decision tools, organizing and restricting their market options, and tapping emotions and managing expectations. Each of these, they state, could improve consumers' ability to choose.[14]

However, economic freedom to choose ultimately depends upon market competition, since buyers' available options are usually the result of various factors controlled by sellers, such as overall quality of a product or a service and advertisement. In the event that a monopoly exists, the consumer no longer has the freedom to choose to buy from a different producer. As Friedrich Hayek pointed out:

Our freedom of choice in a competitive society rests on the fact that, if one person refuses to satisfy our wishes, we can turn to another. But if we face a monopolist we are at his absolute mercy.

â€" Friedrich Hayek, The Road to Serfdom â€" "Can planning free us from care?"[15]

As shown in the above quote, libertarian thinkers are often strong advocates for increasing freedom of choice. One example of this is Milton Friedman's Free to Choose book and TV series.

There is no consensus as to whether an increase in economic freedom of choice leads to an increase in happiness. In one study, the Heritage Foundation's 2011 Index of Economic Freedom report showed a strong correlation between its Index of Economic Freedom and happiness in a country.[16]

Measuring freedom of choiceEdit

The axiomatic-deductive approach has been used to address the issue of measuring the amount of freedom of choice (FoC) an individual enjoys.[17] In a 1990 paper,[18][19]Prasanta K. Pattanaik and Yongsheng Xu presented three conditions that a measurement of FoC should satisfy:

Indifference between no-choice situations. Having only one option amounts to the same FoC, no matter what the option is.Strict monotonicity. Having two distinct options x and y amounts to more FoC than having only the option x.Independence. If a situation A has more FoC than B, by adding a new option x to both (not contained in A or B), A will still have more FoC than B.

They proved that the cardinality is the only measurement that satisfies these axioms, what they observed to be counter-intuitive and suggestive that one or more axioms should be reformulated. They illustrated this with the example of the option set "to travel by train" or "to travel by car", that should yield more FoC than the option set "to travel by red car" or "to travel by blue car". Some suggestions have been made to solve this problem, by reformulating the axioms, usually including concepts of preferences,[20][21][22] or rejecting the third axiom.[23]
From Wikipedia


So yeah, someone needed to admit something alright! I doubt they will though....What a joke. To think I came here for serious, I, honest conversation.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

Sorry, but I face plant when a theist or an atheist, uses scripture, ignorantly.  Burlesque.  Pops is thinking outside the box of scripture (and daring to interpret it without the Pope's permission) ... and an atheist calls him out as a heretic who denies "infallibility and inerrancy"?  Does anyone here realize where "infallibility and inerrancy" comes from?  Wanna know?  It came into Christianity and Judaism thru the printing press ... prior to that, people were illiterate, and had to have the church/synagogue interpret for them.  Now we have religious people who are no longer illiterate, but who are still ignoramuses.  Literalism is their only choice.

Sorry, just taking a Bible and beating a theist with it, is a fail.  Thuggish.  Even if Pops can't clearly explain himself.  However I know what he is saying, largely because we have shared experiences and insights.  Communication is impossible without that, in any language, with any rhetoric.  The Pope can never understand, or communicate much, about marriage, without having been a husband first.  Second hand observation of his father or other husbands ... won't cut it.  This is why in Zen, it is admitted that real enlightenment is ineffable, it can't be communicated at all ... and that all scripture is ultimately futile.

[trdsf]

I'm not going to pretend to know your mind; I don't question that you believe this is the sequence of events.  I just question the interpretation of them.

Just a couple small points:

The radio didn't "go out" it rather slowly faded out. At which time I noticed and adjusted the knobs....auxiliary knobs.   They would not have rebounded to the same spots at the end of the event even if the car battery had been disconnected and reconnected. If it was a malfunction or human error then the broadcaster might have at least apologized for the brief lapse in signal or what have you.

Having worked in radio myself -- no, not necessarily.  There were a couple times we had a loss of signal that I didn't know about until well after the event.  The signal fading out is a simple matter of a loss or drift of signal -- if it's a loss of signal, the fadeout would be a matter of capacitance and/or inductance in the broadcast circuit.  If it's a signal drift, the slow fadeout is because the broadcast signal wandered away from where it should be.

Show me evidence for coincidences, then for random chance.... I'll wait...

Surely you're not suggesting that there's no such thing as coincidence, or random events?  I mean, that's patently ludicrous on the face of it.

Who said the radio was the miracle?

You're the one imputing importance to it.  If it wasn't connected, why did you bring it up?

[popsthebuilder]

I'm not going to pretend to know your mind; I don't question that you believe this is the sequence of events.  I just question the interpretation of them.

Just a couple small points:
Having worked in radio myself -- no, not necessarily.  There were a couple times we had a loss of signal that I didn't know about until well after the event.  The signal fading out is a simple matter of a loss or drift of signal -- if it's a loss of signal, the fadeout would be a matter of capacitance and/or inductance in the broadcast circuit.  If it's a signal drift, the slow fadeout is because the broadcast signal wandered away from where it should be.
Surely you're not suggesting that there's no such thing as coincidence, or random events?  I mean, that's patently ludicrous on the face of it.
You're the one imputing importance to it.  If it wasn't connected, why did you bring it up?

About the radio; you miss my main and most solid point. I physically adjusted both the auxiliary tuner knob, and the volume knob. Being an auxiliary radio, the fading back in would have been to a different frequency and volume, but wasn't.

I donot ascribe importance to it. Just recalling what actually took place.

faith in selfless unity for good

[trdsf]

About the radio; you miss my main and most solid point. I physically adjusted both the auxiliary tuner knob, and the volume knob. Being an auxiliary radio, the fading back in would have been to a different frequency and volume, but wasn't.

I donot ascribe importance to it. Just recalling what actually took place.

But by bringing it up, you imply that it was relevant to the situation.  Certainly it read that way to me.

Anyway, not having been there, I can only offer possible alternative explanations, not definite technical diagnoses.  Certainly it's been my experience that strange events have rational and natural explanations when examined.

[popsthebuilder]

But by bringing it up, you imply that it was relevant to the situation.  Certainly it read that way to me.

Anyway, not having been there, I can only offer possible alternative explanations, not definite technical diagnoses.  Certainly it's been my experience that strange events have rational and natural explanations when examined.

I would agree.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[doorknob]

What are you getting at exactly?

Are we talking about free will?

It is the will of God for man to have free will.

Conundrum solved

faith in selfless unity for good

You just contradicted what you quoted and you didn't even give an explanation as to why you believe that way. If you are basing anything on the bible than you can't make that claim was the point that was trying to be made.

Since I see in another post you try to present evidence of free will. On a scientific level it has been noted. Humans have freedom of choice not free will. And what a human chooses largely depends on a combination of inherited personality traits and environmental factors. So there are constraints not exactly free will.

In other words it may not be your fault you believe in god as it is not our fault that we don't. Environmental factors as you show in your own story of how you came to the conclusion god exists definitely played a huge part in how you decided to interpret them. So knowing that

I will have to ask. How did you conclude that god gave us free will? Did you just make that assumption based on personal biases because that isn't stated in the bible. On the next level science does not agree with either.

Sure you can choose what cereal to buy but with out even knowing it your choice in cereal was formed by genetic traits (aka taste buds you may have inherited.) and environmental factors, such as what was available and how much money you had and other factors as well. That is not free will that is programing. We are like computers basically programed to have certain responses to certain situations. It can be proven that large numbers of people respond in a similar way to similar or the same situations. That is a person acting on psychological instincts, not free will.

[popsthebuilder]

You just contradicted what you quoted and you didn't even give an explanation as to why you believe that way. If you are basing anything on the bible than you can't make that claim was the point that was trying to be made.

Since I see in another post you try to present evidence of free will. On a scientific level it has been noted. Humans have freedom of choice not free will. And what a human chooses largely depends on a combination of inherited personality traits and environmental factors. So there are constraints not exactly free will.

In other words it may not be your fault you believe in god as it is not our fault that we don't. Environmental factors as you show in your own story of how you came to the conclusion god exists definitely played a huge part in how you decided to interpret them. So knowing that

I will have to ask. How did you conclude that god gave us free will? Did you just make that assumption based on personal biases because that isn't stated in the bible. On the next level science does not agree with either.

Sure you can choose what cereal to buy but with out even knowing it your choice in cereal was formed by genetic traits (aka taste buds you may have inherited.) and environmental factors, such as what was available and how much money you had and other factors as well. That is not free will that is programing. We are like computers basically programed to have certain responses to certain situations. It can be proven that large numbers of people respond in a similar way to similar or the same situations. That is a person acting on psychological instincts, not free will.

Preferences in no way negate free will. Though I would not want to readily kill myself, I am still free to do so.  We are limited to some extent or rather our options are, but that isn't saying there isn't a free will. No freedom would be no choice whatsoever.

Though the words free will aren't in the bible it is obvious throughout that we have freedom to choose and that is synonymous with free will. Do I mean we are free to fly around like birds with wings and natural feathers? No, obviously we are limited to the constraints of percievable reality in some form. But you and I both know that free will isn't the freedom do outside of options, but within. Science says the same thing. Scripture says that GOD's will be done, and shows that we are to choose GOD and what is good and right at all intervals. How does one choose without the ability to do so? That ability is freewill.

I can use some other word or phrase if you like, but it is obvious observable truth that is verified with scripture.

You sure take a strong Calvinists stance for an atheist, for your own motives surely.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[doorknob]

Preferences in no way negate free will. Though I would not want to readily kill myself, I am still free to do so.  We are limited to some extent or rather our options are, but that isn't saying there isn't a free will. No freedom would be no choice whatsoever.

Though the words free will aren't in the bible it is obvious throughout that we have freedom to choose and that is synonymous with free will. Do I mean we are free to fly around like birds with wings and natural feathers? No, obviously we are limited to the constraints of percievable reality in some form. But you and I both know that free will isn't the freedom do do outside of options, but within. Science says the same thing.

Glad you cleared up what your definition of free will your going with, as that greatly helps.

Even though I just stated that science does not say the same thing you are saying I will just go with the idea that you are mostly correct. So we do have constraints you just admitted it whether you think you did or not. So we have the freedom to choose, I'll agree that we do, however most people are not really making choices, they are just living off instincts and nee jerk reactions. I can prove it. Go up to any black person and call them a nigger. 9 times out of ten they will get offended. That is their own programing. For a person to have free will they have to have constant awareness and also be open to the idea that things may not have been as they perceived. You constantly have to be searching for other choices that are not the perceived choices. AKA thinking out side of the box.

But that isn't how humans behave on a regular basis. Science has demonstrated this over the years through psychological testing. A person can receive cognitive therapy which helps with awareness and challenging oneself to keep searching for the truth beyond what instinct would have us believe. Aka the thinking patterns we were programed with. Having so called free will is hard work, and takes a constant level of effort. Even I can not make every decision this way. Our instincts often guide is in a response that is safe or healthy, unless like I said our patterns and programming were healthy from the start. If you weren't lucky enough to be born with healthy responses for what ever reason then it takes hard work to reprogram your self. But call a spade a spade,  Either way we are responding using some kind of programming. Not free will.

  Scripture says that GOD's will be done, and shows that we are to choose GOD and what is good and right at all intervals. How does one choose without the ability to do so? That ability is freewill.

I can use some other word or phrase if you like, but it is obvious observable truth that is verified with scripture.

You sure take a strong Calvinists stance for an atheist, for your own motives surely.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

And we keep explaining to you that belief in god is not exactly a choice. I can't force my self to believe in something when I simply don't. Just as you can't force yourself into not believing. Therefor no matter how much you want it to be, belief in god is not a choice. You may have reasons why you do or don't believe but the belief it's self is not a conscious effort. You just do it as part of your psychological instincts.

If you still don't believe me try to stop believing in god for 10 minutes. Honestly not believing. You can't because to honestly not believe you likely wouldn't just jump straight back into believing so easily. You still believe that whole time even if you convince your self you don't.

It's the same with homosexuality. Some people seem to think it's a choice. Well then if it is a choice choose to be homosexual for a day or any amount of time. You can't. Because it's not a choice.

I'm probably wasting my time as you are determined to believe your view point and haven't even considered that anything I said in the previous post had any truth to it. You rejected it right away. How much thought did you put into that rejection? Was it you rejecting it? Or was it your psychology programing you into rejecting?

food for thought.

[Baruch]

But by bringing it up, you imply that it was relevant to the situation.  Certainly it read that way to me.

Anyway, not having been there, I can only offer possible alternative explanations, not definite technical diagnoses.  Certainly it's been my experience that strange events have rational and natural explanations when examined.

There is evidence that Emilia Earhart's Mayday signal skipped all the way from the S Pacific to Florida ... radio transmission isn't a controlled experiment.

[aitm]

I gave credit to GOD

Too bad. You did it all yourself. But hey, why not credit an imaginary fairy? You go...boy.

[Blackleaf]

Absolute bull shit.

Why don't you check and see if we are told to choose anything in the bible. Now use your brain. Freedom of choice is.....Freewill....Good job.

Deflection. You can't dispute the verses which clearly say that god ordains our every move, so that's all you can do. Neither can you dispute scientific evidence that shows that our decisions are determined by biological and environmental factors, and not an self-driven invisible soul.

Allowing us options is rather a pointless gesture if our decisions were made for us before we were even born. If he tells us to choose to believe in him, but then hardens the hearts of those he doesn't want to believe, then that choice was not really a choice. Think about it. God's attributes are incompatible with free will. Knowledge of our every decision means our choices are set in stone. Combined with complete power, that means that god not only knew our decisions ahead of time, but had the power to create the situations in which we would make those decisions. He could have created a universe where humans chose never to do evil. Our choices are part of his design.

God's plan and his providence are both concepts dependent on god controlling us like puppets as well. What's the point of having a "plan" for our lives if he plays no role in determining our decisions? "Oops! I planned for Jimmy to be a doctor, but he chose instead to be an artist. Time to go back to the drawing board!" And how could God be credited for providing for us, or "using" people for his will for the benefit of his people, if he does not have control over us? If we have free will, then God is taking credit for things he had nothing to do with. With free will, both of these concepts are completely pointless.

And God's behavior in the Bible shows no signs of interest in free will either. He frequently puts words in people's mouths, hardens hearts to make them unable to accept his messages so that he can punish them later, causes people to succeed, causes people to fail, and even chooses people before birth for heaven or hell by no criteria other than his own arbitrary will to do as he pleases. Read Romans 9, where Paul describes how God regards us as pots, and himself the potter. He designs some to be destroyed and others to be saved. We are his playthings, and we have no right to argue because...well, he made us!