Impeach Trump????

[Baruch]

All Dem politicians obstruct and purger every day.  So do Republicans.  Jail them all.

[Cavebear]

The US Constitution was written by and for the rich ... rich traitors.  It wasn't written for the little people, or the slaves on the Washington or Jefferson plantations.

Indeed it was.  But it was better than kings or despots and offerred a chance for more people to get a middle-class life.  By today's standards, the Founding Fathers" were not much better than local minor nobility.  The important thing was that they were willing to set in motion a system a government that allowed social mobility, influence from "lower class people" than themselves, and a system that protected the common people from the excesses of government at the time. 

And one that could adapt to changes in society.  I think that gets overlooked too often.  It takes a powerful document that can get us from votes only by wealthy landowners to the current nearly universal voting.  It can be improved, but the change over time is impressive!

[Shiranu]

But it was better than kings or despots and offerred a chance for more people to get a middle-class life... The important thing was that they were willing to set in motion a system a government that allowed social mobility, influence from "lower class people" than themselves, and a system that protected the common people from the excesses of government at the time.

The monarchies in Europe had social movement as well; the Dutch were somewhat pioneers of the "Middle Class" in the modern age, and yet they were a monarchy. Many German states had very strong middle classes, despite being kingdoms and duchies, as did Italy and France. A monarchy doesn't prohibit social movement... it just keeps the very upper echelon exclusive. But that's hardly any different than what we have; social pressure or economic pressure, that glass ceiling is still a ceiling.

As for influence; again, monarchies were heavily influenced by the will of the people... even if it sometimes took a little blood spilling to influence it. The monarchy had it's soldiers crackdown on dissenters.. and we had ours as well. If it wasn't the State crushing any opposition to it's power, it was Robber Barons and the landowners hiring private thugs like the Pinkertons to shut protest down.

The lower class has never had influence in the United States; if it wasn't in the rich landowner or the wealthy businessman's interests, it wasn't changing. No amount of votes would change that; only the threat of violence from the people, of cutting into their wealth, forces them to concede to our demands.

Finally, I'm sorry... but at what point in American history has the average person ever been protected from the excess of government?

And one that could adapt to changes in society.  I think that gets overlooked too often.  It takes a powerful document that can get us from votes only by wealthy landowners to the current nearly universal voting.  It can be improved, but the change over time is impressive!

Monarchies have changed quite fluidly as well. And what good is universal voting if it is just a game of choosing one rich person with their own self-interest as their policy or another with the same?

[Cavebear]

The monarchies in Europe had social movement as well; the Dutch were somewhat pioneers of the "Middle Class" in the modern age, and yet they were a monarchy. Many German states had very strong middle classes, despite being kingdoms and duchies, as did Italy and France. A monarchy doesn't prohibit social movement... it just keeps the very upper echelon exclusive. But that's hardly any different than what we have; social pressure or economic pressure, that glass ceiling is still a ceiling.

As for influence; again, monarchies were heavily influenced by the will of the people... even if it sometimes took a little blood spilling to influence it. The monarchy had it's soldiers crackdown on dissenters.. and we had ours as well. If it wasn't the State crushing any opposition to it's power, it was Robber Barons and the landowners hiring private thugs like the Pinkertons to shut protest down.

The lower class has never had influence in the United States; if it wasn't in the rich landowner or the wealthy businessman's interests, it wasn't changing. No amount of votes would change that; only the threat of violence from the people, of cutting into their wealth, forces them to concede to our demands.

Finally, I'm sorry... but at what point in American history has the average person ever been protected from the excess of government?

Monarchies have changed quite fluidly as well. And what good is universal voting if it is just a game of choosing one rich person with their own self-interest as their policy or another with the same?

My ancestors arose from the serfs and peasants of England and France and possibly some minor Viking warriors.  The Monarchies of the times were supported by brutal thugs (knights) who pillaged and raped the local populace.  We were not able to even leave the lands in search of better conditions; essentially slaves. 

After the Plague, things changed a bit.  With so fewer serfs, labor gained some value.  One could take skills to another place that offerred more protection, more food, more freedom.  Not a lot of course, but "more" is better than "less".  After the Plague years, there were actually decent empty houses survivor serfs could move into.  There was the opportunity to grow food for themselves.

When you have food of your own and a place to live at no cost, you can start to think about saying "no" when the thugs came around.  Because there were weapons all over the place.  Some churches had hundreds of swords on the walls. 

The lords under the kings rebelled first, true.  But it set a pattern in motion.  Perhaps the only "trickle-down" theory that ever worked.  Skilled artisans formed collectives (guilds).  Money came into their control and monarchs had to try to take it (riskier when serfs had swords) or ask for it in exchange for freedoms. 

The rise of the Guilds led to the Renaissance. Individuals below the nobility level had some influence.  Eventually, a middle class between the nobility and serfs emerged.  Mostly artisans, merchants, and bankers, this led to demands for increasing freedom of action.

Granted, that did not eliminate totalitarian monarchy.  Power abides.   But it began the slow climb away from it.  I learned something called "The Phillips Curve" in an economics class in college.  It describes a graph where an upwards curve reaches a peak and declines.  One seldom-remembered aspect of it is that economic expectiatons worsen "just" as conditions are improving.  I applied that idea to a history final and the Professor actually called me in to discuss it with him.  He was impressed.

The point is that the middle class grew as the Monarchies were at the height of their power in the 1700s.  They had the power, but it was eroding at their feet and they didn't realize it.  Monarchies were essentially dead when they thought they were at the height. 

You stated "The lower class has never had influence in the United States".  I disagree.  For the sake of discussion, let's say the "lower class" has been composed of poor immigrants, downtrodden citizens, and former slaves.  How could they influence the wealthy and powerful? 

Well, voting, for one.  Originally, in the US, voters were wealthy landowners.  Then all male citizens.  Then women.  It has been a progression.  Yes there have been barriers.  But the progression continues.  From a few wealthy white guys at first, we all can vote now.  And there are barriers stillto be breached, like gerrymandering.  But there is more push today for citizen committees to decide on Districts.  Things improve a bit every generation.

[Hydra009]

Donald Trump Threatens To Release ‘Thousands Of ISIS Fighters’ To Europe

I think we've just hit peak stable genuis.

Also, Gabbard has a good point about Saudi Arabia.  Turns out that US arms sent to Saudi Arabia winds up in terrorist hands.  How tough on terrorism can you possibly be when you provide terrorists material aid?

[josephpalazzo]

The irony...

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/jared-kushner-rodent-infestations-white-house-balitmore-elijah-cummings-024337245.html

[Baruch]

The irony...

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/jared-kushner-rodent-infestations-white-house-balitmore-elijah-cummings-024337245.html

Politicians are the uber-rats.

[Baruch]

Donald Trump Threatens To Release ‘Thousands Of ISIS Fighters’ To Europe

I think we've just hit peak stable genuis.

Also, Gabbard has a good point about Saudi Arabia.  Turns out that US arms sent to Saudi Arabia winds up in terrorist hands.  How tough on terrorism can you possibly be when you provide terrorists material aid?

GB already had a problem with returning jihadis ... that Trump had nothing to do with.  Or is this TDS?  As far as the remaining Guantanamo inmates go, if we could dump them in Sweden, then go for it!

[josephpalazzo]

Our President's latest outbursts:

"Scuffles broke out after protesters waving an “Immigrants Built America” banner disrupted Donald Trump’s latest rally, where he continued his racist attacks on congressman Eljiah Cummings, the City of Baltimore, and "the squad".

The demonstrators held up the US president’s speech for nearly four minutes before they were kicked out of the event in Cincinnati, Ohio. But, the moment was only blip in the president's campaign rally where he offered up a flawed understanding of American immigration policy, trashed the idea of an independent judiciary, and slammed California for having homeless people and poverty.

Mr Trump, who appeared to make an obscene gesture as they left, also promised to cure childhood cancer, mocked FBI investigator Robert Mueller and boasted about the trade war with China â€" despite warnings from one of his former advisors, Gary Cohn, that it is damaging the US economy."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-news-live-china-tariffs-rally-protests-tweets-latest-updates-today-2020-a9035351.html

[Munch]

immigrants did build america. Those immigrants then killed the native race of that land.

And now generations later the ancestors of those original immigrants want other immigrants to come and do the same thing to them.

I wonder if native Americans had internet back then, if they'd be calling their chieftains racists for not letting the white man just come into their lands freely.

[aileron]

And now generations later the ancestors of those original immigrants want other immigrants to come and do the same thing to them.

Racist much?

[Munch]

Racist much?

Okay Anita calm your tits

[josephpalazzo]

immigrants did build america. Those immigrants then killed the native race of that land.

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. A large part of natives were killed by diseases that the Europeans brought with them. But in those days, no one knew about immunization. The Europeans were immune having gone through several plagues. However, they still carry the germs with them, and when they came in contact, the natives had no defense and died in large numbers. Diseases know no borders. The natives were excluded from the deadly plagues because they lived on a continent isolated by oceans. That contact with those diseases was going to happen sooner or later.

[SGOS]

I was somewhere in grade school where I heard some king killed a messenger for delivering bad news.  I was too young to have learned logic, but I remember thinking how this made no sense, because it solved no problem and had no effect on reality. No wonder he was losing the war.  The king was incapable of thinking clearly, and I assume he was in charge of whatever mess he had created.

Now my president has fired his pollsters for getting results he didn't want to hear, and I can't really decide if he's stupid or crazy.  I wouldn't impeach him, however.  Well... I would if I could, but I can't so that's that.  OK, so he fired the pollsters for releasing the results, not for getting the wrong results, and in his favor he didn't kill any of them like any normal president would, so I guess he's not so bad.  Maybe he could have admitted his poll numbers were shit, but that he was still the best president us schmucks ever saw.

[Baruch]

immigrants did build america. Those immigrants then killed the native race of that land.

And now generations later the ancestors of those original immigrants want other immigrants to come and do the same thing to them.

I wonder if native Americans had internet back then, if they'd be calling their chieftains racists for not letting the white man just come into their lands freely.

They had no functioning passport/visa system or ICE.