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Should America support Israel?

Started by shortbusgangsta, June 28, 2014, 05:02:21 PM

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Moshe Dayan in 1956 said of Palestinians in a eulogy for an Israeli soldier:"Do not today besmirch the murderers with accusations.

Who are we that we should bewail their mighty hatred of us? For eight years they sit in refugee camps in Gaza, and opposite their gaze we appropriate for ourselves as our own portion the land and the villages in which they and their fathers dwelled."

This is 2014; the Palestinian people have now been living under intolerable oppression for far more than 8 years.And your delusional conclusion? God must be proud.



You know who America should really support? Itself and it's own people first. Not a "state" which causes massive problems all over a certain part of the world.

This concludes the end of my sociopathic, weird post.

Jason Harvestdancer

I believe the job of the US government is to take care of the US.  Anything other than that is outside the job of the US government.  That includes taking care of other countries.  Unless some foreign country says "Hey, can we become part of the US" then it isn't the job of the US government to take care of them.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!


I think a major world power does have some responsibility in global affairs.  How much I'm not sure.  The main problem I think is that the US as a world power isn't very good at it.  In many cases, our meddling is done for reasons Jason would approve of, but it's usually selfish, badly handled, frequently completely botched, and in the worst cases, at someone else's expense.


There is no reason for us to support an illegal settler such as Israel.  We should have given these people refuge after WW2, and Britain should not have gone back on its word to the Palestinian people that they would have their own government.  Israel has directly attacked the US military.  Not a dime should be wasted on people like this.


Palestine was never a country.
Prior to WW1 it was a territory of the Ottoman Empire and everyone that lived there was considered palestinian... including the jews who lived there. There is no palestinian language or religion or culture separate from the Arabs and Jews who lived there.

After the collapse of the Ottomans, Palestine was partitioned in the same way that India and Pakistan were partitioned when the Hindus and Muslims couldn't live together. In Palestine, the Arabs received two thirds of the land and called their part Trans Jordan and the Jews got 1/3 of the land and called it Israel. There is nothing immoral, unfair or illegal about this. All it takes is open honest negotiations.

This was a negotiated settlement. The real problem is that the Arabs refused to entertain any agreement of any kind. No negotiations whatsoever even though it was the Ottomans on the wrong side of WW1. The problem is the refusal to even allow Israel's right to exist. Jews make up about 1% of the population of the middle east and take up about 1% of the land. Sounds about right to me.

Islam is the real culprit. It's a warrior religion and they outright refused any negotiated settlement and instead turned to what they know best... violence. The Jews have responded with just as much and often more violence but the fact is... they didn't initiate, they responded.

The U.S. should not have any more involvement in this situation than any other international problem. Those Americans who want to get involved in a foreign war because "the bible says so" should have their heads examined.

Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 07, 2014, 02:51:17 PM
The position of the Labor Party remains what was expressed by their representative, who is now President, Chaim Herzog, who said that "no one can be a partner with us in a land that has been holy to our people for 2000 years."

Perfect biblical genocide. Declaration of 'we will annihilate them'.

Yeah Israel is just responding and protecting itself. Israel is fine, just everyone around it is against its right to exist. Oh and it has nuclear weapons.

What fucking, stomach turning bullshit.

LOL You think I can't find any Muslim genocidal quotes?? Are you familiar with islam?
"Mickey teaches children to kill jews"

So Israel defending itself and its right to exist is bullshit? Not in this world.
Arabs did not own Palestine... that's why it was partitioned. The split was fair and the Muslims refused to come to the table.
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


QuoteArabs did not own Palestine... that's why it was partitioned. The split was fair and the Muslims refused to come to the table.

Eh, they came to the table when it came to selling the immigrants land... didn't seem to have any problem with them then when they were taking their money.

QuoteLOL You think I can't find any Muslim genocidal quotes??

Not even Islam, just Arab quotes against Jews...

Quote"It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the Crusades." - Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League. Interview in Akhbar Al-Yom Newspaper, on the impending Arab attack on the fledgling state of Israel.

Quote"We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land!"
Yasser Arafat

Quote"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." - Yasser Arafat

Quote"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. - Yasser Arafat

Quote"Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell land to Israelis." -Yasser Arafat

And so on and so forth of Arab Leaders threatening to "drive the Jewish dogs back into the sea" or "Litter the streets of Jereuselem with the dead bodies of every Jewish man, woman and child"...

Yeah Palestine and the rest of the Arab League is just responding and protecting itself. Palestine and it's Arab League backers are fine, just Israel is against its right to...massacre every last Jew in the Middle East?. Oh and it has billions of dollars in oil money and is willing to strap their own children with bombs and send them into civilian buses and buildings as suicide bombers.

What fucking, stomach turning bullshit.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.


Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 05:20:40 AM
Move. Catch up.

There is no Moving or catching up without first understanding how we came to this point.

Palestine was never a country.
There is no Palestinian language.
There is no Palestinian religion.
Everyone who lived there was considered Palestinian. Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Jews.

Prior to 1947 the entire area of Israel and Jordan was under British rule as the British Mandate of Palestine.
Prior to that, the territory was under Ottoman (Turks) rule for centuries.
In 1947 the area was partitioned just like India and Pakistan were partitioned. Two religious groups couldn't get along. (big surprise)
There is nothing illegal about this partitioning.
The Jews did not steal the land from anyone, it was their ancestral home as well.

The Arabs refused any and all negotiation. "We get it all or we kill all the jews" was there stated negotiation.
The reason Arabs negotiate like this...islam.
The territory was partitioned (Arabs received 2/3 of the territory and Jews received 1/3)...and the Arabs immediately attacked because they wanted it all.
They initiated the violence, and have maintained this violent approach for decades.

Jews have met violence with violence and extremism with extremism, does this surprise you?

Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


If you want to know how fucked up and one sided to Israel's favor it is in the US go to almost any major city in the US and you'll find a very specific industry that gets favorable press coverage every fucking time with ZERO favorable press for Palestinian's and that industry is the Holocaust industry. Yes, it's every bit an industry as the evangelical industry is and the two are in cahoots. For the life of me I can't tell you why Columbus Ohio has a Holocaust museum on the state capital grounds. It didn't fucking happen in Columbus and yet every major US city has such a museum. It's total bullshit sold to us under the premise that those horrible Nazi's might do it again while the fascists simply switched enemies. Instead of being Jews it's Arabs and in the US it's often pronounced A rabs  as opposed to air rabs and always in a negative light. You're sold the idea every mini mart is 'given' to illegal A rab immigrants instead of legal, tax paying citizens. 
Fuck, if you're this blind to the blatant racism and discrimination is there any hope you'll ever understand the dirty dealing behind the empire game?
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.


Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 09:54:25 AM

We have arrived this point because USA AND ISRAEL PREVENTED ANY REAL RESOLUTION. Because US wants the region as fucked up as possible and Israel gets anything out of it AND they keep invading land.

'Israelis' act exactly the same as Arabs. If they didn't have the wealth and technology, they would be producing suicide bombers faster than as q-tips. They are as racist, violent, fanatic and  fucked up As Arabs in the region.

The Arabs have never accepted Israel,Pakistan was created in a similar manner to Israel, did the muslims ever thank the west for Pakistan or do the butthurt muslims constantly whine about the filthy Yahud?

The USA does not want the region fucked up and they are not responsible for muslims behaviour from Boko Haram or al shaabab to ISIS/Isil or any other fundie fuckwits.

Israelis are not exactly the same as the Arabs,the filthy Yahud produce technology which provides wealth, the Arabs produce nothing except fundie nutjobs!

How many rockets have been fired into Israel,does Amnesty International call firing these rockets into civilian areas a war crime?

The Arabs think chanting Allahu Akbar is a guidance system for their rockets,it must be gods will why they

The Israelis are deadly accurate with the weapons they fire, all the optics technology in precision weapons comes from Israel,even the Turkish air force uses Litening Targeting pods made in Israel for your ancient F4's, the same company that makes these pods also produced the colonoscopy and pill cameras used in hospitals.

If you don't like Israel i suggest you dispose of your USB flash drives as 2 Israelis hold the patent for them,what have the Arabs created in the last 50 years?


QuoteProblem is that ANY possible resolution is being prevented on purpose by Israel and USA. Are you aware of this? Why are you not?

Problem is that ANY possible resolution is being prevented on purpose by Hamas and the Arab League. Are you aware of this? Why are you not?

I'm sorry, but the Arab League (or more accurately today Saudi Arabia, the rest I think (especially Egypt and Jordan) I have calmed down a bit on their radicalism) is just a much a territorial player as the United States is. To blame it on Israel and the USA alone is giving a free pass to the side that sponsors true, radical organizations.

I agree with your argument against Berati that it is all the Arab League fault, but I disagree with you that you feel the need to put the majority of the blame on Israel and the West. I think it is at best 50/50, at different points of history it was predominately the Israelis and at different points it was predominately the Palestinian and their Arab financiers. To put the majority of the blame on the "West" is to do the exact same thing you are accusing Berati of.

And while I agree that the past has little to do with the power player's involvement at this point, for the average Hamas suicide bomber or the Israeli commander who orders a missile strike into a crowd of Palestinians, the religion/history of violence/racism is the key issue going through their mind.

@APA; give me a break, if you don't think Israeli's aren't demonised in the US, you have never met pretty much anyone who votes Democrat or leans towards the left. The Israeli/Palestinian cause is such a bandwagon amongst American "liberals" that it is ridiculous, especially when they show no outrage over true genocides like what is happening in Tibet, Sri Lanka, and Africa.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.


Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 09:54:25 AM
You keep repeating that^. Too bad it doesn't have any validity.
I repeat it and will continue to repeat it because it is central to the dispute. It's not something you can gloss over as irrelevant.
Neither Arab nor Jew can claim the entire area as there own and since they cannot get along the area was partitioned.

QuoteDo you understand the meaning of indigenous people?
I do. Even today, they are digging up documents that are thousands of years old written in Hebrew.
Are you saying that Arabs are indigenous and Jews are not?

QuoteWe have arrived this point because USA AND ISRAEL PREVENTED ANY REAL RESOLUTION.
We have arrived at this point because Arabs got 2/3 of the British Palestinian mandate but would settle for nothing less than 100%. We have arrived at this point because the Arabs refused to acknowledge the right of other people to exist.
Had the Arabs said OK to any of the many proposal that were put forward there would be no problem. But it was 100% or nothing in their eyes.

QuoteBecause US wants the region as fucked up as possible and Israel gets anything out of it AND they keep invading land. And what they are doing is ILLEGAL. Thread is full of links and charts reports on what has Israel been doing. Your fucking bias and hatred is not enough to cover that.
I could just as easily accuse you of bias against the jews by ignoring the historical facts I've pointed out.

I've already agreed that the Jews are responding to violence and fanaticism with violence and fanaticism. What you are missing is that it's a RESPONSE.

For example, the recent murder of the palestinian boy. It was horrible and the perpetrators need to be punished. But if you simply ignore that just previously three jewish boys were murdered you are missing the bigger picture.

QuoteThe answer is to everything 'oh because it's Islam'' Yeah. :doh:
Islam is a noxious and violent ideology. I don't lump all religion together like many liberals because the results vary. Some are much more violent than others and islam tops the list. Arab muslims kill each other as well as anyone else in their vicinity, Jews included.  If you want to leave out the obvious influence of this violent belief system in this conflict then you're making a serious mistake.

Quote'Israelis' act exactly the same as Arabs.
Not even close.
They defend themselves in sometimes extreme manners. They are surrounded and outnumbered by several orders of magnitude by violent fanatics and yet you think they are the ones to blame . They have taken land in wars AND given it back! They have also illegally settled in areas they should not as people in those areas plot their destruction and continuously fire rockets into their land.

QuoteI am sick of having conversations with people who cannot think further two propaganda lines.
Then take a deep breath and relax. I'm not your mortal enemy. I'm just a guy who disagrees with you on this ONE topic.

Muslims have 99 times more land and population than the Jews and you want to convince us that it's the jews causing all the problems? And you want to make this argument while the muslims are acting out towards everyone (including each other) with hatred and violence?
Yeah, blame the jews. No one has done that before.

Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Dick The Giant

Yes because Israel is one of the United States of America and should be treated as one!

Draconic Aiur

How about we just leave middle east alone seriously.