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Brexit: UK votes to leave EU in historic referendum

Quote
The UK has voted to leave the European Union after 43 years in a historic referendum.

Leave won by 52% to 48% with England and Wales voting strongly for Brexit, while London, Scotland and Northern Ireland backed staying in the EU.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage hailed it as the UK's "independence day" but the Remain camp called it a "catastrophe".
The pound fell to its lowest level against the dollar since 1985 as the markets reacted to the results.
Follow the latest developments on our live page

Brexit: What happens now?
Kuenssberg: PM's luck runs out
World reaction as UK votes to leave EU
Labour 'must change' after EU campaign

The referendum turnout was 71.8% - with more than 30 million people voting - the highest turnout at a UK election since 1992.
Wales and the majority of England outside London voted in large numbers for Brexit.
Labour's Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the Bank of England may have to intervene to shore up the pound, which lost 3% within moments of the first result showing a strong result for Leave in Sunderland and fell as much as 6.5% against the euro.

'Independence day'
UKIP leader Nigel Farage - who has campaigned for the past 20 years for Britain to leave the EU - told cheering supporters "this will be a victory for ordinary people, for decent people".

Mr Farage - who predicted a Remain win at the start of the night after polls suggested that would happen - said Thursday 23 June would "go down in history as our independence day".

He called on Prime Minister David Cameron, who called the referendum but campaigned passionately for a Remain vote, to quit "immediately".

A Labour source said: "If we vote to leave, Cameron should seriously consider his position."
But pro-Leave Conservatives including Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have signed a letter to Mr Cameron urging him to stay on whatever the result.
Labour former Europe Minister Keith Vaz told the BBC the British people had voted with their "emotions" and rejected the advice of experts who had warned about the economic impact of leaving the EU.

He said the EU should call an emergency summit to deal with the aftermath of the vote, which he described as "catastrophic for our country, for the rest of Europe and for the rest of the world".

Germany's foreign minister Frank Walter Steinmeier described the referendum result as as "a sad day for Europe and Great Britain".
But Leave supporting Tory MP Liam Fox said voters had shown great "courage" by deciding to "change the course of history" for the UK and, he hoped, the rest of Europe.
And he called for a "period of calm, a period of reflection, to let it all sink in and to work through what the actual technicalities are," insisting that Mr Cameron must stay on as PM.

Exit process

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has said that the EU vote "makes clear that the people of Scotland see their future as part of the European Union" after all 32 local authority areas returned majorities for Remain.

London has voted to stay in the EU by around 60% to 40%. However, no other region of England has voted in favour of remaining. The referendum has underlined the social and cultural gap between London and provincial England.

Remain's defeat seems to have been primarily the product of the decisions made by voters living north of the M4.
Throughout the Midlands and the North of England the level of support for Remain was well below what was required for it to win at least 50% of the vote across the UK as a whole.

Britain would be the first country to leave the EU since its formation - but a leave vote will not immediately mean Britain ceases to be a member of the 28-nation bloc.
That process could take a minimum of two years, with Leave campaigners suggesting during the referendum campaign that it should not be completed until 2020 - the date of the next scheduled general election.

The prime minister will have to decide when to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, which would give the UK two years to negotiate its withdrawal.
Once Article 50 has been triggered a country can not rejoin without the consent of all member states.
Mr Cameron has previously said he would trigger Article 50 as soon as possible after a leave vote but Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who led the campaign to get Britain out of the EU have said he should not rush into it.

But they also said they want to make immediate changes before the UK actually leaves the EU, such as curbing the power of EU judges and limiting the free movement of workers, potentially in breach the UK's treaty obligations.

The government will also have to negotiate its future trading relationship with the EU and fix trade deals with non-EU countries.

In Whitehall and Westminster, there will now begin the massive task of unstitching the UK from more than 40 years of EU law, deciding which directives and regulations to keep, amend or ditch.

The Leave campaign argued during a bitter four-month referendum campaign that the only way Britain could "take back control" of its own affairs would be to leave the EU.
Leave dismissed warnings from economists and international bodies about the economic impact of Brexit as "scaremongering" by a self-serving elite.

This was surprising. I personally thought it would be exactly the opposite with something around the current division, with London for Leave. The interesting is that London voting 60 % Remain, being the only one voting Remain in majority and the obvious geographical distribution of the Leave votes. Basically, it looks like this turned out to be an open fight between two different socio-economic cultures of Great Britain in UK.

A hard deal is waiting for them. Everything is going to change. And Scotland already voiced concern as they voted Remain. Would they try to break from UK? In a second second referendum after this one would Scots vote out? I have no idea. 

Let's hope this is not something triggered by the last year's refugee media campaign and that it is really not an emotional reaction overall goaded by media. IF that's the case and the concern about the economical impact is true, it is going to be bad in long term.

And most importantly would this trigger other countries consider voting out? Probably they'll sit to watch how UK is doing.


:question: Come on Brits, what do you think? What did you vote for and why?

Early yesterday, I kept hearing the polls were almost neck and neck, but suggesting Britain would remain.  Later in the day, the people that wanted to leave were even conceding defeat.  Then I wake up this morning and they had won.  This was a Hell of an election to watch.  Hope it works out.

I didn't vote, I just wanted to sit back and watch the fireworks.

Quote from: Munch on June 24, 2016, 07:06:11 AM
I didn't vote, I just wanted to sit back and watch the fireworks.

Both sides seemed deeply committed to their point of view, but I didn't get enough information over here to form much of an opinion.  The fact that it was close to a 50/50 split suggests... What?  I dunno.  Was it a divide between smart and stupid, corporate or individual, or based on ideological opinions?  I can't believe the outcome will be as dire or wonderful as either side paints it.  There was also a lot of talk about how it affects other European countries.  Those consequences could be important, but I still found it odd that so many outsiders, including Americans would have opinions about what Britain should do.

The world markets took a dive.  I guess that says something about what the wealthy think.  I hate to admit it, but when the stock market soars, somebody other than me benefits.  When it dives, it's not like I was participating in it to begin with.  It's someone else's wealth, and none of those people give a damn about what I might think.

I'll be listening for the predictions for the next week from the winners and losers in the British referendum.

Holy mother of fucking god.

There are so many stories out there. It's mostly scary and chaotic. It badly feels like this was a massive emotional reaction; a result of the media campaign(s) around refugee crisis affecting an already existent attitude.

There isn't literally ONE big article in the media -as far as I can see- on why 'Brexit so awesome and will save Brits'. WTF?  I mean just put one to save face, you just did it.

The best thing is 'a pile of myths about Brexit, but 3 reasons why it could be good'. ?

Independent
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-10-best-places-to-emigrate-to-after-brexit--bJqpKLP3EZ

8 of the most misleading promises of the Vote Leave campaign, ranked in order of preposterousness

QuoteGood afternoon, and welcome to a brave new EU-free world.

Just to recap: the UK has voted to leave the European Union in a result that came down to just 1.39m votes.

The value of the pound has dropped through the floor. Sinn Fein are calling for a united Ireland. Prime minister David Cameron has resigned. SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon has said that Scotland is looking at a new independence referendum. The Labour party has tabled a motion to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn.

And it's only lunchtime.

Leave campaign leaders Boris Johnson and Michael Gove promised the electorate an awful lot if we voted out, such as spending commitments to the tune of £111bn.

What's less clear, in the light of a fresh summer's day, is whether they actually have any clue whatsoever what the f--k they're going to do. It's not clear that they even really believed they could win.

Just some of the truthy flights of fancy that won't be coming true any time soon include:

1. We aren't going to see a fall in immigration levels

No one in the Leave campaign actually gave any target figures, at any time, ever. Conservative MEP Dan Hannan has already said this morning that people expecting immigration to come down will be "disappointed".

2. We aren't going to have an extra £100 million a week for the NHS

Nigel Farage has already told reporters today that the Leave campaign shouldn't have claimed that.

3. We aren't going to be able to stay in the single market

No other country has a set up like that: both France and Germany have made it abundantly clear that we are not going to be able to have our cake and eat it, ie, take advantage of the free-trade zone without contributing a single penny to it, as Leave says we will.

4. We aren't going to get our sovereignty back

Looks like we're going to get a new prime minister by the end of the autumn Conservative party conference. It'll be a short list of two people, nominated by MPs.

This unelected leader could then theoretically hold office unopposed until a general election has to be called in three year's time.

P.S. We still have the House of Lords. So there's that.

5. We aren't going to save £350m a week

The Leave claim that the UK gives £350m a week to the EU has been thoroughly debunked. But it was still emblazoned on their battle bus right up until the end:

6. We won't remain a world leader in research and development

UK investment in science and universities has dried up since the recession, whereas the EU gave us £7bn in science funding alone between 2007 - 2013.

We're also going to face new barriers to collaboration with European universities and research centres.

7. We aren't going to save £2bn on energy bills

Leave promised we could end VAT on household energy bills. While that's possible, it won't save us any money in reality because we rely on imports for so much of our energy.

Because the pound has fallen, inflation will go up, which means imports and thus our domestic energy bills will cost up to 12 per cent more than they currently do.

8. We aren't going to be a 'greater' Britain

Overnight the UK economy has already slumped from the fifth largest in the world to sixth.

More than £200 billion has already been wiped from the value of the UK stock market - or put another way, 24 years' worth of UK contributions to the EU.

Brexit: from an American perspective, there is only one good outcome

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/brexit-eu-referendum-american-perspective-bad-outcomes

QuoteWhile UK voters have good reasons to either stay in or leave the European Union this Thursday, a British exit would only hurt the US

While there are good reasons for British voters to either support or oppose the proposed withdrawal of the UK from the European Union, there is little argument at all from an American perspective that Brexit would hurt the US.

Analysis Brexit fallout: seven ways the EU referendum could damage US interests
From the economy to strategic alliances and the effects of resurgent nationalism, America has much to lose if Britain votes to leave the European Union

The strongest argument for the UK leaving the EU is that European bureaucrats have usurped many of the powers that should be vested in democratically elected officials in Westminster. Laws in Brussels are not made by people who can be readily held accountable to voters. Instead, a maze of one-size-fits-all bureaucracy has slowly and steadily eroded the role of national parliaments and other political institutions.

This is a convincing argument for British voters. However, it needn’t matter at all to Americans. What may matter to Americans, however, is the economic and national security impact of the UK deciding to leave the bloc.

There is consensus among economists that Britain leaving the EU would lead to a major economic shock, which would have worldwide impacts. In recent days, global markets have followed polls in the UK. The less likely it is that Britain leaves the better markets have done, and vice versa. Janet Yellen, the chair of the Federal Reserve, warned on Tuesday that Brexit could have “significant economic repercussions” in the US.

Furthermore, from a national security perspective, Brexit would deprive the US of a crucial window and important pro-American voice in pan-European meetings.

It also would risk Scottish independence, which would probably require the relocation of Britain’s nuclear submarines and weaken the UK’s military at a time when Europe faces a growing threat from Russian expansionism.

There is also an argument that the pro-Brexit campaign in the UK has set a disturbing trend for western democracies. Those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU have not focused on the gaping democratic deficit in European institutions. Instead, much of the campaign has focused on inflated anti-immigration rhetoric and demagoguery. One pro-Brexit poster unveiled by UK Independence party (Ukip) leader Nigel Farage featured a picture of a number of Middle Eastern refugees with the slogan “Breaking point: the EU has failed us all.” A win by pro-Brexit forces would be yet another signal of the potency of this variety of demagoguery in western politics and probably further influence the tone of what is already a historically divisive and bitter US presidential election.

British voters will make their decision on Thursday about whether the UK is better off within or without the European Union. And while the subject can be the topic of fair and reasonable debate in the UK, there is only one good outcome from the American perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8UjkoFfG2Y

That's^ a huge bus ad. The big red ones you guys have. Sigh.

We all woke up to a very different world today. And I am afraid. Like I wasn't enough before all this. :sad2:

Politicians lying to their constituents in order to advance their agenda? Tell me it isn't true...

Meh! 

Lotta pissing and moaning prematurely. 

It may well turn out badly for the Brits; there are always bumps and dips in any country's national and international road; there'll be some of those in this new one too.  If any group takes a real hit; I'm guessing it will be the group running the EU.  My fearless prognostication is 3-5 more EU countries will bail within 5 years. 

Guess I better get over there, and visit the old country before it descends into a zombie apocalypse!   :asmile: 

Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 24, 2016, 11:50:51 AM
Guess I better get over there, and visit the old country before it descends into a zombie apocalypse!   :asmile:

  :axe:  :lol:

I figured the UK would narrowly vote remain.  This outcome was unexpected.  This is the first time that I can recall that a country has successfully left a trade bloc.  With more and more of the world joining regional blocs - NAFTA, USAN, EU, African Union, ASEAN, etc - it's very surprising to see a country buck that trend.

What are the consequences of this move for the UK?  The EU?  The US?  I honestly haven't been following it that closely.  But I have heard talk of Northern Ireland and Scotland leaving the UK for the EU (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brexit-vote-scotland-northern-ireland-uk/).  Whatever the Leave people expected to get out of this move, I hope it was worth it.

I found this entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 24, 2016, 01:14:46 PM
I figured the UK would narrowly vote remain.  This outcome was unexpected.  This is the first time that I can recall that a country has successfully left a trade bloc.  With more and more of the world joining regional blocs - NAFTA, USAN, EU, African Union, ASEAN, etc - it's very surprising to see a country buck that trend.

Good one.

It's really not surprising that London voted to remain while the rest of England, for the most part, voted to leave.  London has a very high foreign born population, and it makes sense for immigrants to have the "remain" sentiment. 

Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 24, 2016, 02:07:57 PM
I found this entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

I love that man. This is perfect. And too many things to pull from and write down here. Too late.

Quote from: Jack89 on June 24, 2016, 03:45:36 PM
It's really not surprising that London voted to remain while the rest of England, for the most part, voted to leave.  London has a very high foreign born population, and it makes sense for immigrants to have the "remain" sentiment.

Immigration seemed to have been a major factor in the Brexit vote.  Let's hope the UK isn't coming down with a case of the Trumps.

Quote from: Jack89 on June 24, 2016, 03:45:36 PM
It's really not surprising that London voted to remain while the rest of England, for the most part, voted to leave.  London has a very high foreign born population, and it makes sense for immigrants to have the "remain" sentiment.

Yes, you are right. But I thought that way, because don't you think London is also the place of the British Empire kind of nationalism and top class mentality over Europe? that's why I thought if anyone is going to go Leave, they'd be the first.   

Although nobody is reading, I have been screaming about the consequences of the so called immigration and refugee crisis horror stories media campaign and how bad it would be, but I was wrong and never thought it would be this bad with a capital B. Or potentially a capital C of a Catastrophe.

I was going to say earlier and beat to it that this seems to be an English stand of the Trump; xenophobic, nationalistic, fea mongering lies used to rile up normally normal people into being so afraid of the rest of the world, and that they are superiour. England, like the United States, is unfortunately culturally historically predisposed for that sentiment because of its imperial history and isolation.

The world needs more unity, but black hearted cowards managed to frighten an entire  relevant nation into isolating themselves further. Hopefully this will wake the Scots and Northern Irish into realising they are worth more than being England's vassals and take more pride in their selves and their culture.

There is a rise of fascism throughout Europe. Nationalism and fascism go together. The EU represents open borders and free trade. A Europe rife with borders and conflicting national interests harkens back all the way to 1914. The efforts since then, especially after WW2, was a common market and common trade and employment based not nationally but internationally.

I don't personally see anything good coming out of it.

Hey.. Maybe Trump will decide to leave the US now. This is about like certain states in the US spouting cecession AS IF any one of them could possibly survive as nations on their own.
I suggest we let Texas leave, but first we get every fucking penny ever invested in Texas back including every electrical line, every ounce of paving for roads and anything else..
Fucking stupid fucks are going to get everything they deserve, nothing. 

The common air around in my community's social media.

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quote"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just â€" the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

Not funny. Really.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 24, 2016, 04:06:07 PM
Yes, you are right. But I thought that way, because don't you think London is also the place of the British Empire kind of nationalism and top class mentality over Europe? that's why I thought if anyone is going to go Leave, they'd be the first.

Sorry, The City, the oldest corporation on Earth, runs London, not the Queen or Parliament, and they are ground zero for neoliberal one-world-ism.  That is why they have such a high-income foreign population.  Foreign born working class, who have been in England since the 50s, understand what new immigrants will do ... spoil what they already have spent decades building.  Mexican Americans feel the same way about the current illegals ... unless they are relatives of course ;-)

Stupidest decision ever.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on June 24, 2016, 08:23:31 PM
Hey.. Maybe Trump will decide to leave the US now. This is about like certain states in the US spouting cecession AS IF any one of them could possibly survive as nations on their own.
I suggest we let Texas leave, but first we get every fucking penny ever invested in Texas back including every electrical line, every ounce of paving for roads and anything else..
Fucking stupid fucks are going to get everything they deserve, nothing.

How about orderly shutdown of the current Federal government (in the US)?  Centralization just leads to imperialism.

NPR reported a poll that showed in addition to Londoners/vote stay and non-Londoners/vote leave, the vote was also divided by age, with younger voters voting to stay, and older voters voting to leave.  I don't know what that means.  Polls like this only tell us "what", not "why?"  Of course, we can speculate about it.

Also, in regards to speculation, the Brit that NPR was interviewing about that exit poll, said she thought a lot of people were so sure that Britain would vote to stay, they thoughtlessly marked "leave" just to counter the trend.  Then woke up the next morning wondering what they had done.  How she deduced this, she didn't explain, but it kind of fits with Brits googling EU to see what it was after they voted to exit.

I'm glad for Britain. Now the other countries that have been aching to leave should get the balls and hold referendums. This way, the next time Chancellor Merkel wants to open up a border, she can open only the German border.

Re the comment about still having the Lords - hell, I'd put the hereditary peers back in. It was a shame to get rid of them. It's a good thing to have some members of parliament who do not answer to the ballot box and still others who do not owe their seats to politicians. Foolish to have removed them. The real reason that they were removed - by a Labour government - was that they tended to be Conservative and kept handing the L government defeats in the Upper House ... The public was foolish for having stood for it.

In memory of my maternal grandparents - God Save the Queen!

THIS is what the people voted for.

https://www.facebook.com/lee.griffiths.7549/videos/10157020101240414/?pnref=story

Let's all vote to chop our noses off despite our faces because after all our noses only get in the way of the rest of us. And don't forget,  there are just too many nosey people anyway.
The only question then is do we chop them off with dull, rusty hatchets or do we have to pay some overpaid doctor to do it right so we don't get infections? I vote dull, rusty hatchets. I'm tired of doctors telling me what to do to stay alive.

Quote from: Mermaid on June 25, 2016, 08:24:28 AM
THIS is what the people voted for.

https://www.facebook.com/lee.griffiths.7549/videos/10157020101240414/?pnref=story

Better quality video for easier viewing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swlq7t8IuyM

(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/fox-news-brexit-UN.jpg)

I'm convinced that Fox News doesn't make these sorts of errors accidentally anymore, but does them intentionally to subtly promote stuff they agree with, like conflating Obama with Osama or leaving the UN.

The US would be smart to leave the UN, and chuck the HQ from NYC to Geneva.  Put Germany in charge of Nato, and leave that behind as well.

I think we need to build a wall to prevent these Brits from pouring into the US. We will send the bill to the Queen.

British passport sees loss in utility. It will be harder for Brits to travel internationally.

Look on thy works, ye Blighty, and despair.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-british-passport-value-plunges-down-global-rankings-of-usefulness-a7100506.html#gallery

A generation ago, things didn't look good for the British monarchy.  One wag suggested setting up an amusement park for them in New England.

(http://i.imgur.com/f1jKWs4.jpg)

*sigh of relief*

I wouldn't be surprised if the British Government hems and haws about making a formal request to leave the EU for a very long time. Meanwhile, every opportunity will be taken to show the public how bad things will be outside of the EU. Then, some slimy pretext will be found to throw out the referendum and call for another. If the elite really want to stay in the EU, a way will be found.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 25, 2016, 03:16:43 PM
I think we need to build a wall to prevent these Brits from pouring into the US. We will send the bill to the Queen.

Ha ha we were talking about this! And yes there will be an emigration wave to US from UK.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 25, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
I'm glad for Britain. Now the other countries that have been aching to leave should get the balls and hold referendums. This way, the next time Chancellor Merkel wants to open up a border, she can open only the German border.

Re the comment about still having the Lords - hell, I'd put the hereditary peers back in. It was a shame to get rid of them. It's a good thing to have some members of parliament who do not answer to the ballot box and still others who do not owe their seats to politicians. Foolish to have removed them. The real reason that they were removed - by a Labour government - was that they tended to be Conservative and kept handing the L government defeats in the Upper House ... The public was foolish for having stood for it.

In memory of my maternal grandparents - God Save the Queen!

You are glad for Britain? You still think this is about immigrants? Are you following anything happening by any chance?

UK didn't get out of refugee crisis by voting out EU and exactly the same belief led them to their ruin. 

Quote from: SGOS on June 25, 2016, 06:57:35 AM
NPR reported a poll that showed in addition to Londoners/vote stay and non-Londoners/vote leave, the vote was also divided by age, with younger voters voting to stay, and older voters voting to leave.  I don't know what that means.  Polls like this only tell us "what", not "why?"  Of course, we can speculate about it.

Also, in regards to speculation, the Brit that NPR was interviewing about that exit poll, said she thought a lot of people were so sure that Britain would vote to stay, they thoughtlessly marked "leave" just to counter the trend.  Then woke up the next morning wondering what they had done.  How she deduced this, she didn't explain, but it kind of fits with Brits googling EU to see what it was after they voted to exit.

How old people have screwed over the younger generation - in three charts

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts--W1AA_n4nEb

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-y2fhz2.png)

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-1qiywem.png)

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-1i5ltll.png)

Brits are the largest group living on EU wellfare in EU. What's going to happen to them? The new Britain will continue to pay them without question after making so much issue and politics based on cutting minorities -which is far less then brits getting domestic wellfare- because it was supposedly huge?

I also wonder how many international families that is going to suffer from this. They'll have to pay for everything too.

From paying extra to get into EU market now as a country, to the individual who wants to get out of the door... they will pay and pay for anything in and around EU now.

If they cannot fix that economy fast and good, it is going to be very bad.

They will have to dynamite the Chunnel ... to keep France from sending all the refugees (and older W African migrants) to England.  The basic position of European countries, is extreme hostility to each other, and boulangerie.  What one vocal Brit says about the vote, that it is a gift to the Tories, even if it hurt Cameron.  Is Boris Johnson going to be the next PM?  Is he a Trojan Horse conservative?  Will UKIP continue to pull the Tories to the Right?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 26, 2016, 04:07:37 AM
You are glad for Britain? You still think this is about immigrants? Are you following anything happening by any chance?

UK didn't get out of refugee crisis by voting out EU and exactly the same belief led them to their ruin.

It's about British xenophobia.
Look, you've got a one-track mind w/the migrants. The one and only reason that there is a crisis is that the migrants can rest assured that the Europeans will not shoot them. Notice that no waves of migrants showed up to knock on Russia's door. Putin would have shot them. The migrant crisis is the fault of the EU for not shooting them. Instead, Angela Merkel is rolling out a red carpet. Well, deal w/it then. But speak only for your country. And get away w/it only so long as your people are willing to leave you in as chancellor. The Austrians didn't want any migrants. The Italians didn't want any. The Hungarians didn't want any. Who does Merkel think she is? "Wir mussen" she said, "We must."  Nein! Das ist nicht wahr!

It's not looking good.   There are reports of racism and harassment all over facebook and twitter.

I'm really worried about my non-British friends and my British friends that don't look British enough to all the racists that have suddenly become emboldened by the referendum vote.

There is a big noise being made about the fact that Brits not living in England-some 3 million- did not receive the ballots and were not allowed to vote. Don't be surprised if there is another vote. With those numbers Brexit might be defeated.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 08:16:33 AMThe migrant crisis is the fault of the EU for not shooting them.

And the humanitarian of the year award goes to...

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 26, 2016, 02:05:39 PM
And the humanitarian of the year award goes to...

What I meant was simple: if they chose not to do the one thing that would have stopped the migrants, then they have no choice but to deal w/the crisis. I believe that that is a fair statement. I was not advocating shooting them. But nothing else would have stemmed the flow. Nothing. They weren't going to stop coming just because they were asked. Only if it were made plain that coming = brains on the road would they have stopped coming.You don't knock on a door if you know that doing so is a guaranteed bullet between your eyes.

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 26, 2016, 02:05:39 PM
And the humanitarian of the year award goes to...

Obviously you were in favor of the Germanic invasion of the Roman Empire in 406 CE ... as a humanitarian measure.  We don't need no stinkin' civilization!

What does this mean? Why is it so bad?

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 02:18:17 PM
What I meant was simple: if they chose not to do the one thing that would have stopped the migrants, then they have no choice but to deal w/the crisis. I believe that that is a fair statement. I was not advocating shooting them. But nothing else would have stemmed the flow. Nothing. They weren't going to stop coming just because they were asked. Only if it were made plain that coming = brains on the road would they have stopped coming.You don't knock on a door if you know that doing so is a guaranteed bullet between your eyes.

Still better treatment than they would have received in their own country, so I'm not sure even this is true.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on June 26, 2016, 05:27:43 PM
What does this mean? Why is it so bad?

Because this. (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales)

Quote from: Shiranu on June 26, 2016, 05:54:20 PM
Still better treatment than they would have received in their own country, so I'm not sure even this is true.

Well, then, that left Europe 2 choices - deal w/an influx of at least 20% of its population in what amounts to "over night" - cope w/it - or have mountains of dead bodies to cremate and bury ... Me, I'd've opted for the latter. Over night, no, you can't take on that many, especially since so many will refuse to integrate, will insist on having Sharia law - as many Muslim immigrants already in Europe have done. I'd've treated it like an invasion and hit the roads w/air strikes, taking out thousands at time. Monstrous? Maybe. But MINE come first always.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 02:18:17 PM
What I meant was simple: if they chose not to do the one thing that would have stopped the migrants, then they have no choice but to deal w/the crisis. I believe that that is a fair statement. I was not advocating shooting them. But nothing else would have stemmed the flow. Nothing. They weren't going to stop coming just because they were asked. Only if it were made plain that coming = brains on the road would they have stopped coming.You don't knock on a door if you know that doing so is a guaranteed bullet between your eyes.

Way too extreme, and unnecessary.  The vast majority came for the free ride.  Remove that incentive and the flow will be reduced to a trickle. 

Quote from: Jack89 on June 26, 2016, 07:35:03 PM
Way too extreme, and unnecessary.  The vast majority came for the free ride.  Remove that incentive and the flow will be reduced to a trickle.

If that's the case, then bread and water, a spot on the floor and an army surplus blanket.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 07:55:45 PM
If that's the case, then bread and water, a spot on the floor and an army surplus blanket.

I knew you had a heart :)

Quote from: Jason78 on June 26, 2016, 06:11:37 PM
Because this. (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales)

whats the eu got to do with it? What is the eu?

Quote from: Jack89 on June 26, 2016, 08:06:44 PM
I knew you had a heart :)

Not when it comes to religious fanatics, I don't.

Quote from: Jack89 on June 26, 2016, 07:35:03 PM
Way too extreme, and unnecessary.  The vast majority came for the free ride.  Remove that incentive and the flow will be reduced to a trickle.

Ding ding a winner!  CIA plot to end socialism in Europe.  Make Marine LePen queen of Europe ;-)

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on June 26, 2016, 08:41:07 PM
whats the eu got to do with it? What is the eu?

If you don't deny you are a racist, then you don't get to go to Liberal heaven with the secular-Jesus.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 08:44:15 PM
Not when it comes to religious fanatics, I don't.

I can see you would prefer a Berlin wall well north of the Rio Grande, maybe around Alabama? ;-)

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on June 26, 2016, 08:41:07 PM
whats the eu got to do with it? What is the eu?

The EU, aka Nato (minus the US) ... has been bombing the ME for several years now ... with the technical assistance of the US of course.  See Libya and Syria.  Not that Iraq was left in good condition when the US/Britain left (sort of).  The EU is the political arm of Nato.  Just ask the Ukraine and Russia.

Quote from: Baruch on June 26, 2016, 10:51:00 PM
I can see you would prefer a Berlin wall well north of the Rio Grande, maybe around Alabama? ;-)

I don't get the point. I haven't seen where the Mexicans have been blowing up buses and demanding enclaves wherein to practice savage Catholic rites.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 26, 2016, 04:10:37 AM
How old people have screwed over the younger generation - in three charts

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts--W1AA_n4nEb

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-1i5ltll.png)

Typically these people who voted to leave are trying to provide their kids/grandkids with the best future possible. It would be bizarre and inconsistent for them to suddenly screw everyone else over because they don't have much time left.

Also, when millennials don't get what they want, is that necessarily a bad thing? A lot of people in this demographic don't own much property, quite a few still live at home, and are generally more suggestible (For example they might convince themselves that old people are screwing them over in some hypothetical situation)

Plus, I hear that turnout was much lower among younger generations.  Sucks to be on the losing side of a referendum, but it sucks even worse to be on the losing side because you didn't vote.

I can't remember where I read it, but parliament can override the vote and keep the UK in the EU. Whether they do it or not is yet to be seen and it would be a good move. But like politicians everywhere they're probably too spineless.

I'm seeing headlines this morning "Cabinet Collapses," So and So Resigns," and "Bunch of Others Resign."  Why do all the politicians run away when the will of the people contradict them, and oddly from what I read, Brexit may not even be the will of the people anyway.  On one hand, it seems like the leadership has no fight in them.  On the other, I wish it were that easy to get rid of politicians over here.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 11:00:30 PM
I don't get the point. I haven't seen where the Mexicans have been blowing up buses and demanding enclaves wherein to practice savage Catholic rites.

Mexicans are Catholics, not S Baptists (which is what the person I was posting about, I think was implying).

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 27, 2016, 02:08:17 AM
Plus, I hear that turnout was much lower among younger generations.  Sucks to be on the losing side of a referendum, but it sucks even worse to be on the losing side because you didn't vote.

If the Millennials want a voice, they have to vote ... and become grandparents ;-)  My generation had to wait 40 years for the WW II vets to die off.

Quote from: Baruch on June 26, 2016, 10:49:51 PM
If you don't deny you are a racist, then you don't get to go to Liberal heaven with the secular-Jesus.

I'm not racist, I just give a fuck about poland

Quote from: SGOS on June 27, 2016, 05:08:45 AM
I'm seeing headlines this morning "Cabinet Collapses," So and So Resigns," and "Bunch of Others Resign."  Why do all the politicians run away when the will of the people contradict them, and oddly from what I read, Brexit may not even be the will of the people anyway.  On one hand, it seems like the leadership has no fight in them.  On the other, I wish it were that easy to get rid of politicians over here.

Shadow Cabinet. That's the other lot, the Labour Party, that aren't in power.

Apparently the referendum isn't legally binding, as it is just a big opinion poll with no legal standing. But try telling that to those that just voted out.

A couple of Queen's Council have noted that MPs would have to vote on the decision to make it legal, as democracy (apparently) doesn't happen as a result of ordinary people voting.  Sound familiar?

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty still hasn't been triggered yet, so the Brexit is still stuck on the Launchpad and looks likely to be there for some time.  Boris says the UK still have access to the European single market, whereas the Germans and French are like..."ROFLMAO"...

Meanwhile the £350million per day that was promised by the Leave campaign to put into the NHS has just been called 'a mistake' by the same people, and one of the MEPs has just said the cut in EU immigration isn't going to happen either. So two of the main promises by the Leave campaign have been rescinded, so it appears.. but the Brexiteers are still too busy crowing to realise that they've been sold a turd.

Well there ya go.... this shit is likely to lurch it's arthritic way through the next few months and years with nobody knowing quite what the fuck is going to happen....

We live in interesting times..... 

Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on June 27, 2016, 03:38:16 PM

Well there ya go.... this shit is likely to lurch it's arthritic way through the next few months and years with nobody knowing quite what the fuck is going to happen....

We live in interesting times..... 

Today, I heard talk of holding another referendum.  If you don't like the way the people voted, well, just vote again until they get it right.  Why not?  The second referendum won't be legally binding either.

Most definitely interesting times.  It's a global version of SNL, and in real time.  I know there's a lot emotion vested in this thing, and I don't want to disregard that as trivial, but to watch from the outside, it's I dunno; A comedy, tragedy, surrealism, or perhaps just interesting?  Maybe after the stock market turns into another great recession, I'll see it differently, but right now it's hard for me to comprehend that things are as bad as some are saying.  I am quite cognizant that I often miss important things, especially when it comes to economics and the ideologies therein.

Quote from: SGOS on June 27, 2016, 04:50:21 PM
Today, I heard talk of holding another referendum.  If you don't like the way the people voted, well, just vote again until they get it right.  Why not?  The second referendum won't be legally binding either.

Best out of three?  Seems kinda unfair to the victors if the losers just reroll till it goes their way.

It's not like politicians in the US don't call a redo every time they don't get their way <*cough*Republicans!*cough*>.  How many votes have there been to repeal all or part of the Affordable Care Act now?  And now Republicans have JUST released their replacement for it...well, it's more of an "underwear gnome" type outline, really.  Step one, repeal Obamacare.  Step two....do...some good stuff...to replace it...  Step 3, profit!

Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on June 27, 2016, 03:38:16 PM
Shadow Cabinet. That's the other lot, the Labour Party, that aren't in power.

Apparently the referendum isn't legally binding, as it is just a big opinion poll with no legal standing. But try telling that to those that just voted out.

A couple of Queen's Council have noted that MPs would have to vote on the decision to make it legal, as democracy (apparently) doesn't happen as a result of ordinary people voting.  Sound familiar?

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty still hasn't been triggered yet, so the Brexit is still stuck on the Launchpad and looks likely to be there for some time.  Boris says the UK still have access to the European single market, whereas the Germans and French are like..."ROFLMAO"...

Meanwhile the £350million per day that was promised by the Leave campaign to put into the NHS has just been called 'a mistake' by the same people, and one of the MEPs has just said the cut in EU immigration isn't going to happen either. So two of the main promises by the Leave campaign have been rescinded, so it appears.. but the Brexiteers are still too busy crowing to realise that they've been sold a turd.

Well there ya go.... this shit is likely to lurch it's arthritic way through the next few months and years with nobody knowing quite what the fuck is going to happen....

We live in interesting times.....

Even Igor, in Young Frankenstein, couldn't remember which shoulder had the hump.  It seems party politics in Britain is a little too close to British comedy for comfort.  Really, it is just Labor (as in Hillary) trying to dump Corbin (as in Bernie).  They are using anything as an excuse, even though Labor supported "remain" and so do the shadow cabinet members who are mutinying.  The DNC would do the same thing, sabotage Bernie, if he had gotten the nomination.  Instead it is the RNC trying to do it to Trump.

Also Labor has to self destruct, with convenient timing, to assist your next PM, Boris Johnson.

Quote from: widdershins on June 27, 2016, 06:19:58 PM
It's not like politicians in the US don't call a redo every time they don't get their way <*cough*Republicans!*cough*>.  How many votes have there been to repeal all or part of the Affordable Care Act now?  And now Republicans have JUST released their replacement for it...well, it's more of an "underwear gnome" type outline, really.  Step one, repeal Obamacare.  Step two....do...some good stuff...to replace it...  Step 3, profit!

Yes, the Rs were deficient in repealing the R health plan (they fooled everyone everytime), that was implemented by a Trojan Horse Congress/President.  Beware Ds bearing gifts.  These are the same folks who brought you Vietnam, but you may have forgotten that.  If the Rs weren't all former S Ds, I would have hope for them.

If the Rs were serious, and still failed that number of times, they can commit seppuku now.

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 27, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
Best out of three?  Seems kinda unfair to the victors if the losers just reroll till it goes their way.

Brussels works for the CIA.  The CIA never loses in the end, you do.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 26, 2016, 08:16:33 AM
It's about British xenophobia.
Look, you've got a one-track mind w/the migrants. The one and only reason that there is a crisis is that the migrants can rest assured that the Europeans will not shoot them. Notice that no waves of migrants showed up to knock on Russia's door. Putin would have shot them. The migrant crisis is the fault of the EU for not shooting them. Instead, Angela Merkel is rolling out a red carpet. Well, deal w/it then. But speak only for your country. And get away w/it only so long as your people are willing to leave you in as chancellor. The Austrians didn't want any migrants. The Italians didn't want any. The Hungarians didn't want any. Who does Merkel think she is? "Wir mussen" she said, "We must."  Nein! Das ist nicht wahr!

No, I don't have a one-track mind with immigrants. I have a one track mind with bullshit politics campaign that finally put a country in jeopardy. It's only going to get worse.

Besides, we are not talking about Austrians. I was talking about you being glad for UK. Trying to support an obvioulsy fucked up decision people made WITHOUT even getting its consequences or understanding what it is.

I am sick of this 'you think this way because of the country you live' in bullshit. The people in the country I live in have EXACTLY the same mind frame with people in EU against immigrants. Racism is not unique to EU.

You are so cut out from reality and cannot see behind your nose, you cannnot register that what I am riting here is MY PERSONAL OPINION on every subject. And pretty much different than the majority roughly in most issues. And I wrote that several times already. Exactly like in your country -an every other- there are people who don't agree with the majority in where I live. Do you have the basic intelligence to get that? 

Hang in there guys. Racist violence is only going to get worse, watch out what you say where in public in ear shot when tensions are high. I know it sounds ridiculous when put like this, but yeah it is that likley anywhere in a situation like this.

Watch out for riots. Hopefully, not may be big scale social explosions, but little ones incited in public places by anything random etc. football matches, concerts...public events, pubs, bars...where people watch sports-news and get wasted.

Esp. after the leave has moved in, in a couple of years, when the economical impact is openly started to be felt, potentially life could change for the worse.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 04:25:50 AM
No, I don't have a one-track mind with immigrants. I have a one track mind with bullshit politics campaign that finally put a country in jeopardy. It's only going to get worse.

Besides, we are not talking about Austrians. I was talking about you being glad for UK. Trying to support an obvioulsy fucked up decision people made WITHOUT even getting its consequences or understanding what it is.

I am sick of this 'you think this way because of the country you live' in bullshit. The people in the country I live in have EXACTLY the same mind frame with people in EU against immigrants. Racism is not unique to EU.

You are so cut out from reality and cannot see behind your nose, you cannnot register that what I am riting here is MY PERSONAL OPINION on every subject. And pretty much different than the majority roughly in most issues. And I wrote that several times already. Exactly like in your country -an every other- there are people who don't agree with the majority in where I live. Do you have the basic intelligence to get that?

I have never said that your opinion was not your own. I've never equated your opinion w/that of your homeland. I don't even know where your homeland is!
Someone in the US could have written all that you have written!
If the UK is happy w/its decision, then, yes, I am happy for the UK. I am always happy when people get what they want, if what they want does not constitute an impingement upon others. The UK w/drawing from the EU does not constitute an impingement upon the EU, even if it does hurt feelings.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 28, 2016, 04:57:50 AM
I have never said that your opinion was not your own. I've never equated your opinion w/that of your homeland. I don't even know where your homeland is!
Someone in the US could have written all that you have written!
If the UK is happy w/its decision, then, yes, I am happy for the UK. I am always happy when people get what they want, if what they want does not constitute an impingement upon others. The UK w/drawing from the EU does not constitute an impingement upon the EU, even if it does hurt feelings.

Oh yes, sorry you said something more idiotic like "But speak only for your country" as if this is something that won't have on impact where I live in various levels or as a whole in the EU and by extension the world. But then I will speak about whatever I like, I really don't care if it doesn't serve your mental masturbation and inability of seeing what a fucked up situation is this and how it happened, its potantially catastrophic consequences for UK and its people and many others.

You are ignorant as hell, racist as fuck and full of shit. Your take on one of the biggest humanity crisis modern world has seen is "These people went to Europe, because they know they wouldn't get shot dead". World has arrived to this point because of the policies produced by this mentality, because people like you are in charge.   

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 06:28:32 AM
Oh yes, sorry you said something more idiotic like "But speak only for your country" as if this is something that won't have on impact where I live in various levels or as a whole in the EU and by extension the world. But then I will speak about whatever I like, I really don't care if it doesn't serve your mental masturbation and inability of seeing what a fucked up situation is this and how it happened, its potantially catastrophic consequences for UK and its people and many others.

You are ignorant as hell, racist as fuck and full of shit. Your take on one of the biggest humanity crisis modern world has seen is "These people went to Europe, because they know they wouldn't get shot dead". World has arrived to this point because of the policies produced by this mentality, because people like you are in charge.

No. They went to Europe because they were desperate. I was not discussing their side of the equation. I was discussing the European side of the equation. But even desperate is mitigated by certain death. Again - no one has knocked on Mr Putin's door. He showed clearly what Russia will do should unpleasant things happen to Russia when he leveled Syria in the wake of the airliner coming down.
Had I been in charge, none of this would have happened. Nobody would have been desperate enough anywhere to need migration. I'm not a cruel man. Call me a racist all you like. I would have had the same reaction to millions of uninvited Russians pouring into Europe. Fact is, if I were a racist, I'd be in favor of building a wall between the US and Mexico - I am not. I do not see Mexicans as a threat to the United States.

For people who thinks latest racist attacks are about muslim immigrants, because they cannot assimilate to European culture OR that this is about the recent muslim refugee crisis. I wrote about the old attitude against Polish immigrants UK, because I have heard it and saw written in many times about from people myself before it was replaced with an other group. Let's hope it will stay at graffiti levels. But it is not about muslim refugee because they cannot assimilate. It's about everyone from Asians to Polish people who doesn't look 'British' enough.

But seriously, could these people be this stupid to think that after voting for Brexit, the 'forigners' will get out or even that the country won't take any immigrants? It's a good demonstration of how much people knew about what they have vote for AND what was the Brexit campaign all about.

These are motivated acts.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

Racist incidents feared to be linked to Brexit result

Suspected racist graffiti at Polish cultural centre in London among incidents thought to be fuelled by vote to leave the EU

QuotePeople have been reporting incidents of racism believed to be fuelled by the result of the EU referendum, including alleged racist graffiti and cards reading “no more Polish vermin” posted through letterboxes.

Suspected racist graffiti was found on the front entrance of the Polish Social and Cultural Association (POSK) in Hammersmith, west London, early on Sunday morning.

The Metropolitan police confirmed they had been called to the cultural centre on Sunday morning and were pursuing inquiries related to “allegedly racially motivated criminal damage”.

Neither POSK nor the police would confirm the content of the message, which has since been washed off.

The Polish ambassador to Britain urged politicians to condemn what had happened. Witold Sobków’s intervention came after a number of incidents involving graffiti targeting Polish nationals in the UK. Sobków, who said the issue would be discussed in talks on Monday, tweeted:

The incident comes as Cambridgeshire police are investigating reports of racist laminated cards being distributed in Huntingdon on Friday in the hours after the leave result was announced.

Sign up to our EU referendum morning briefing

According to reports from the Cambridge News, a number of cards saying “Leave the EU/No more Polish vermin” in both English and Polish were found outside St Peter’s school by teaching assistants and students, including an 11-year-old Polish child, who reported they made him feel “really sad”.

Cards bearing the same message were posted around a number of properties, police confirmed.

Sayeeda Warsi, the former chair of the Conservative party, has warned that since the referendum result was announced people were being stopped in the street and told to leave the country.

“I’ve spent most of the weekend talking to organisations, individuals and activists who work in the area of race hate crime, who monitor hate crime, and they have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying look, we voted Leave, it’s time for you to leave,” Lady Warsi told Sky News.

“And they are saying this to individuals and families who have been here for three, four, five generations. The atmosphere on the street is not good.”

Warsi originally backed the leave campaign, but switched to support remain, calling the Leave campaign “divisive and xenophobic”.

Labour MP Jess Phillips announced on Twitter that she would be putting in a parliamentary question to find out the numbers of reported instances of racial hatred in the UK in the weekend following the Brexit vote, compared with last week.

Advertisement

In Gloucester, Max Fras said he was in a Tesco supermarket on Friday night with his young son when a white man became agitated in the queue for the checkout and began yelling: “This is England now, foreigners have 48 hours to fuck right off. Who is foreign here? Anyone foreign?”

Fras said the man began quizzing people in the queue about where they were from. “He pointed at another gentleman in front of him and said: ‘Where are you from, are you Spanish? Are you Italian? Are you Romanian?’ And he said ‘No, I’m English’,” said Fras.

Fras, a Polish consultant in European educational projects who lives in London, said he was concerned about what incidents like this might mean for those like him who have moved from the EU to Britain.

Other reports of racist incidents believed to be fuelled by the Brexit result, were posted on social media, including one from Heaven Crawley, a research professor at Coventry University, about an incident allegedly witnessed by her daughter in Birmingham.

“This evening my daughter left work in Birmingham and saw [a] group of lads corner a Muslim girl shouting ‘Get out, we voted leave’,” she posted on Twitter.


Welsh businesswoman and remain campaigner Shazia Awan was told by Warren Faulkner to pack her bags and go home after she expressed disappointment in the leave result. Awan, who was born in the UK, tweeted a reply that in her view the “campaign was vile and racist” and had “ruined [the] country forever”.

Earlier that day, Faulkner had celebrated the referendum result as a “major victory for the right wing, adding: “Oi Muslims pack your bags”.

Many of the reports of incidents seem to show the mistaken belief that EU citizens living in the UK will be forced to leave the country as a result of the referendum result, with instances reported of a Polish woman being told to get off a bus and “get packing”, of a Polish man being told at an airport that he “shouldn’t still be here, that we had voted to be rid of people like him”, of a Polish coffee shop worker being jeered at and told “you’re going home now” and of Polish children at a primary school crying because they were scared of getting deported from Britain.

Channel 4 journalist Ciaran Jenkins said that while reporting from Barnsley on Friday in the hours after the referendum results were announced, he overheard three different people shout “send them home” in five minutes.

A man wrote on Twitter that he had experienced two “racialised altercations” in the 10 hours after the referendum result, which he believed were connected to it. One alleged incident involved men chanting “Out, out, out” at Muslim women and in another he said a man at King’s Cross station “yells ‘Brexit’ in my south Asian friend’s face”.


This article was amended on 27 June 2016. Earlier versions said Sayeeda Warsi warned that since the referendum result was announced immigrants were being stopped and told to leave the country. She was referring to people born in the UK who were descendants of immigrants, not immigrants themselves.

Brexit: Wave of hate crime and racial abuse reported following EU referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

Quote from: marom1963 on June 28, 2016, 04:57:50 AM
I have never said that your opinion was not your own. I've never equated your opinion w/that of your homeland. I don't even know where your homeland is!
Someone in the US could have written all that you have written!
If the UK is happy w/its decision, then, yes, I am happy for the UK. I am always happy when people get what they want, if what they want does not constitute an impingement upon others. The UK w/drawing from the EU does not constitute an impingement upon the EU, even if it does hurt feelings.

It impinges on German plans for global conquest.  Brexit has cost a lot of wealthy people, a lot of temporary losses in the markets.  So "non-harm" isn't a good criteria.  Some people deserved to be harmed.  Change in status quo always causes harm ... just different harm than the status quo is accomplishing.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 28, 2016, 06:57:02 AM
No. They went to Europe because they were desperate. I was not discussing their side of the equation. I was discussing the European side of the equation. But even desperate is mitigated by certain death. Again - no one has knocked on Mr Putin's door. He showed clearly what Russia will do should unpleasant things happen to Russia when he leveled Syria in the wake of the airliner coming down.
Had I been in charge, none of this would have happened. Nobody would have been desperate enough anywhere to need migration. I'm not a cruel man. Call me a racist all you like. I would have had the same reaction to millions of uninvited Russians pouring into Europe. Fact is, if I were a racist, I'd be in favor of building a wall between the US and Mexico - I am not. I do not see Mexicans as a threat to the United States.

Marom, to be frank with you...I don't respect your opinion after the poision you vomitted, nor your half wit rhetoric of "but Putin Putin..." nor do I care what kind of a person you are. I can only see what you write here which is a good telling about how people think if they post constantly. Sooner or later they are 'out' as it were, regardless of their self image. And what you wrote here is in sync with other things you wrote about the subject from the beginning, supposedly from your brother-in-law's mouth as a 'messenger'.

Anyway, end of conversation. I don't have anything to say to you about this.

Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2016, 07:16:23 AM
It impinges on German plans for global conquest.  Brexit has cost a lot of wealthy people, a lot of temporary losses in the markets.  So "non-harm" isn't a good criteria.  Some people deserved to be harmed.  Change in status quo always causes harm ... just different harm than the status quo is accomplishing.

I'm not against the rich being harmed. They make their money mostly by harming the poor. Fuck em. The poor are in constant pain due to lack of money, so they'll not feel it the way that the rich will. Good.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 07:25:45 AM
Marom, to be frank with you...I don't respect your opinion after the poision you vomitted, nor your half wit rhetoric of "but Putin Putin..." nor do I care what kind of a person you are. I can only see what you write here which is a good telling about how people think if they post constantly. Sooner or later they are 'out' as it were, regardless of their self image. And what you wrote here is in sync with other things you wrote about the subject from the beginning, supposedly from your brother-in-law's mouth as a 'messenger'.

Anyway, end of conversation. I don't have anything to say to you about this.

:bedtime:

Racism After Brexit: Teenagers Hurl Abuse At American On Manchester Tram

http://putlocker.is/watch-house-of-cards-tvshow-season-4-episode-3-online-free-putlocker.html

QuoteThe man replies: “How old are you? What are you, 18? 19? I’ve been here longer than you have.”

He is instantly threatened: “Don’t chat shit or get deported.”

As the encounter becomes visibly more heated, frightened commuters are seen looking stricken as the teens advance on the man, flicking beer at him and ordering him to get off the tram.

Mentioning he has served in the military for seven years, the man admonishes them: “You are extremely ignorant and not very intelligent.”

As he moves forward towards the teens he is pulled away by concerned commuters, who shout after the boys: “Disgusting, disgusting, you are an absolute disgrace to England!”

The group can be heard yelling: “Salford! Fucking immigrant!”

The encounter, which is being investigated by Greater Manchester Police, saw some commuters weep in fear and shock.

One passenger, who asked to remain anonymous, told the Manchester Evening News: “It was really horrible. When I was walking back to my work I was crying all the way. I couldn’t control myself.

“I was feeling sad, I now feel scared coming to work. They were three boys, they weren’t very old.

“I am scared of travelling on my own, I feel scared for my children that it is not safe, I will not take them on the tram.”

Chief Inspector Gareth Parkin, of Greater Manchester Police, said: “We are aware of a video of a hate incident that has surfaced online this morning.

“This is a disgusting display of abuse which quite frankly has no place in society.

“All hate incidents are treated with the utmost severity and this behaviour will not be tolerated in Greater Manchester.


“I’m strongly urging anyone who recognises the men in the video to come forward and help us with our investigation.

“The incident happened at around 7.40am this morning, Tuesday 28 June, on a tram travelling towards the city centre.”

Greater Manchester’s Mayor and Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd said: “People across Greater Manchester will condemn racist attacks which have been reported in different parts of the country in the wake of the EU Referendum result.

“While Greater Manchester Police have said they have not seen an increase in reports of hate crime over the weekend, we are now starting to hear stories of people being abused because of their race, religion or nationality.

“There is no room in Greater Manchester for hatred and division. We have worked hard, together, to build strong, cohesive, and welcoming communities. I encourage anyone who has been a victim of hate crime to come forward and report it.

“Hate crime has no place in our society. The overwhelming majority of British people stand together against hatred and prejudice. These acts of racism are not in our name and will not be tolerated.”

While such encounters are sadly not an anomaly in Britain, there is a poignancy to the incident occurring less than a week after the UK voted to leave the European Union and during a time when racist incidents have soared.

A detailed list compiled by Tell MAMA, a group that measures anti-Muslim attacks, details the abuse people have received since the Brexit result on Friday.

It comes as the National Police Chiefs’ Council reveals that hate crimes reported to the police has risen 57% between Thursday and Sunday compared to the corresponding days four weeks ago.

Faith Matters, an interfaith group that works on countering extremism projects, released the hate crime figures that were reported through Tell MAMA.

Fiyaz Mughal, founder and director of Faith Matters, said that, since Friday’s results, incidents of racist abuse have been reported predominantly from visible Muslim women who have had comments such as “we voted you out, why are you still here” directed at them.

Mughal said: “The Brexit vote seems to have legitimised the prejudice of some people to the point where they are verbalising and targeting people at a street level who are visibly different.

“This is England 2016 and this is totally unacceptable.”

These 'incidents' are filing in one by one. I think people started to get scared. And it is mostly about skin colour.

Overall there is the statistics of 57% flying around all over the net. Just several days. I wonder how many is held back. If this happened in another country in Europe, everybody would be outraged.

My aunt witnessed something of the sort, a woman she has been working with for over 5 years and didn't live a slightly negative thing all these years, shouts a black woman 'foriegners go home' going out of a car park when they were both in the car from the window. And she says it is ridiculous, because I'm sitting beside her in the car and I'm a foriegner, but it is so obvious that what 'angers' her is the woman's skin colour, I don't seem to bother her, never did a bit probbaly because I'm white and 'Eruopean looking' in her opinion.

She has been living in Europe for 20 years (5 years in London) and never lived a bad thing directed to her. Because she doesn't look like an immigrant. That's a disgusting sentence I had to write. She should leave that place imo and go back to her original European country.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
My aunt witnessed something of the sort, a woman she has been working with for over 5 years and didn't live a slightly negative thing all these years, shouts a black woman 'foriegners go home' going out of a car park when they were both in the car from the window. And she says it is ridiculous, because I'm sitting beside her in the car and I'm a foriegner, but it is so obvious that what 'angers' her is the woman's skin colour, I don't seem to bother her, never did a bit probbaly because I'm white and 'Eruopean looking' in her opinion.

She has been living in Europe for 20 years (5 years in London) and never lived a bad thing directed to her. Because she doesn't look like an immigrant. That's a disgusting sentence I had to write. She should leave that place imo and go back to her original European country.

Anyone who isn't white can get the same treatment anywhere in Europe - or the United States, for that matter. Racism is ugly. But not all white people are racists. Not all white people are happy to see such things happen. But you can't single out the English and say that only in England would such a thing happen. Even the Dutch have racist political parties - and who as a nation is more liberal than the Dutch?

Quote from: marom1963 on June 28, 2016, 04:33:19 PM
Anyone who isn't white can get the same treatment anywhere in Europe - or the United States, for that matter. Racism is ugly. But not all white people are racists. Not all white people are happy to see such things happen. But you can't single out the English and say that only in England would such a thing happen. Even the Dutch have racist political parties - and who as a nation is more liberal than the Dutch?

Irrelevant. I am talking about what's been happening in just several days after Brexit. So YES I am singling out the white UK born British people. Stop making apologetics for deliberate racist actions motivated by political campaigns and the Brits who were stupid enough to vote for leave because they thought foriegners will be deported and there won't be immigrants coming in. Are you even aware what's been going on?

By the way, they are called British poeple, NOT English. This average American understanding of UK= England is quite embarrassing and also a good sign about the general American perception. Not to mention in the same league with the disgusting bullshit we are talking here.

To answer your question, countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark are more liberal than Netherlands. But again irrelevant, because none of them cannot be even compared to UK. Esp. now UK going back to 1930s full throttle.

About racism in America, I had a peek when I was getting in to the country first time in Chicago custom border. When in the line waiting to be searched with many other people while all the nonwhite people before and after me -who were all Americans from their accents and families- got searched in body scan one by one, nobody even thought of putting me in the machine, because I look white and had no 'ethnic' sign on me. I was the only foreigner between them and it was my first time getting through. Nobody would miss it, it is there happening in front of your eyes. I wrote about this in detail 3 years ago. They remembered to scan me in NY though a year later, but that was after Boston.

None of the 'there is racism anyway' bullshit justifies what has been going on now. Nothing can justify this. It will only get worse.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 05:07:58 PM
Irrelevant. I am talking about what's been happening in just several days after Brexit. So YES I am singling out the white UK born British people. Stop making apologetics for deliberate racist actions motivated by political campaigns and the Brits who were stupid enough to vote for leave because they thought foriegners will be deported and there won't be immigrants coming in. Are you even aware what's been going on?

By the way, they are called British poeple, NOT English. This average American understanding of UK= England is quite embarrassing and also a good sign about the general American perception. Not to mention in the same league with the disgusting bullshit we are talking here.

To answer your question, countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark are more liberal than Netherlands. But again irrelevant, because none of them cannot be even compared to UK. Esp. now UK going back to 1930s full throttle.

About racism in America, I had a peek when I was getting in to the country first time in Chicago custom border. When in the line waiting to be searched with many other people while all the nonwhite people before and after me -who were all Americans from their accents and families- got searched in body scan one by one, nobody even thought of putting me in the machine, because I look white and had no 'ethnic' sign on me. I was the only foreigner between them and it was my first time getting through. Nobody would miss it, it is there happening in front of your eyes. I wrote about this in detail 3 years ago. They remembered to scan me in NY though a year later, but that was after Boston.

None of the 'there is racism anyway' bullshit justifies what has been going on now. Nothing can justify this. It will only get worse.

You said your aunt lived in London. Last time I looked at a map, London was in England, not Scotland, not Wales, not Northern Ireland. If you had said, she lived in Edinburgh, I'd've said "Scotland." Having had a set of English grandparents, I'm perfectly well aware of the difference between the UK ethnicities and that "British" is a nationality belonging to all of them. I'm also aware that the English don't like anyone who isn't English - simple as that. They don't even like other English people from the next town over, if the truth be told, but they really don't like foreigners, not even, but perhaps especially Americans. That's the way they are. If your aunt doesn't know that about the English, then it's time she learned it. I've known it my whole life, having grown up around them and having spent enough time in England.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 28, 2016, 05:35:49 PM
You said your aunt lived in London. Last time I looked at a map, London was in England, not Scotland, not Wales, not Northern Ireland. If you had said, she lived in Edinburgh, I'd've said "Scotland." Having had a set of English grandparents, I'm perfectly well aware of the difference between the UK ethnicities and that "British" is a nationality belonging to all of them. I'm also aware that the English don't like anyone who isn't English - simple as that. They don't even like other English people from the next town over, if the truth be told, but they really don't like foreigners, not even, but perhaps especially Americans. That's the way they are. If your aunt doesn't know that about the English, then it's time she learned it. I've known it my whole life, having grown up around them and having spent enough time in England.

You realise this is a meaningless word salad, right? Or may be you don't. You purposefully do not or cannot engage anything about the subject and the REAL POINT of this event and its real life consequences. Because you have no idea what has bee going on, though you are so dumbed down at this point I doubt if you are able to get even if you were. It's like posting to Randy Carson. You are talking about something like let's say...Greek mythology and make interpretations from it as if it is real.



 

And the dumbest part is you writing ^that about English people bending backwards and forwards not to use the word racist^ -'they are like that', lol- just after writing 'not all English people are racists.' LOL Fss, it is a farce. It's hard to get that if you even have a real opinion on this but just writing because you are annoyed by what I wrote. Well if the latter, congrats you have become a regular of AF. :lol:

Or may be it is OK to be racist when you are English? Because if the half of this happened in another Western country or in the US, it would be cooked alive.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 06:13:11 PM
You realise this is a meaningless word salad, right? Or may be you don't. You purposefully do not or cannot engage anything about the subject and the REAL POINT of this event and its real life consequences. Because you have no idea what has bee going on, though you are so dumbed down at this point I doubt if you are able to get even if you were. It's like posting to Randy Carson. You are talking about something like let's say...Greek mythology and make interpretations from it as if it is real.

No, no - you've gotten silly to the point of the absurd. You mention an event in ENGLAND. YOU mention an aunt who lives in ENGLAND. The event was a racist event that might have happened BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER Brexit - yet, somehow, to discuss it outside the context of Brexit is, to YOU, to miss the point of the event - which has little to do w/Brexit in itself but a great deal to do w/the ENGLISH character in itself. But you know all about everything and are unerring in your point of view. So, think what you want. Moan on and on and on. Dismissing people is not an effective way of dismissing their cases - you are no authority figure - you have no gavel, you sit on no throne. Dismiss away. Don't care. I'm not impressed by your haughtiness. If anything, you remind me of a pouting little girl, stamping her foot on the ground. Big deal!

An event? Oy vey...

Marom's case: 'Racism is the character of English people. We don't call it racism when they do it and there is racism in the world anyway, but it doesn't count when certain people do it and what happened in the last several days has little to do with Brexit. And just because you are posting articles about how Brexit is the worst idea of the century and don't agree with me on refugee crisis and Brexit, you are a haughty pouting girl." 

Your case is solid, except the part that you have no idea what is going on or what you are saying. :lol:

Bored off to sleep.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 28, 2016, 06:51:37 PM
An event? Oy vey...

Marom's case: 'Racism is the character of English people. We don't call it racism when they do it and there is racism in the world anyway, but it doesn't count when certain people do it and what happened in the last several days has little to do with Brexit. And just because you are posting articles about how Brexit is the worst idea of the century and don't agree with me on refugee crisis and Brexit, you are a haughty pouting girl." 

Your case is solid, except the part that you have no idea what is going on or what you are saying. :lol:

Bored off to sleep.

That's the case you made - not the one that I made.
I said that xenophobia was part and parcel of the English character and goes a long way in explaining an "Out" vote for Brexit, regardless of any possible economic concerns. Somehow, you equated "foreign" w/racism - I guess English is not your native language ... Later in the thread, when it came to your aunt and what happened there, I was not discussing Brexit at all. I was discussing your aunt and the incident in themselves. You dragged Brexit into that part of it ... Again - your attitude - this time, snide - does not impress me. You have NO power over me, dumpling - you can't do anything to me. So, why not speak to me in a civil tone? You can get only so nasty before one of the Admins will step in, so put a break on the nonsense and cool it. Believe it or not, I'm easy to talk to. I'll talk forever. I don't mind being disagreed with, so long as it doesn't get personal.

The most important issue seems to have been that either you have only token representation when it comes to managing your affairs as part of the EU, which is nothing but a pseudo democracy, or you manage your own affairs as a sovereign state.

I can hardly begrudge the UK for this, and indeed it would seem several more countries want the same thing.

What are you fucking blind? No, it is not a 'one case' I made, marom. I posted a couple of articles about telling that 57% rise in racist incidents just after Brexit in several days which police raised an alarm and it is reported as LINKED to Brexit. I am not making anything up.  And before me a British member -an old member- posted his concern about the issue.

Quote from: Jason78 on June 26, 2016, 01:23:40 PM
It's not looking good.   There are reports of racism and harassment all over facebook and twitter.

I'm really worried about my non-British friends and my British friends that don't look British enough to all the racists that have suddenly become emboldened by the referendum vote.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 29, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
What are you fucking blind? No, it is not a 'one case' I made, marom. I posted a couple of articles about telling that 57% rise in racist incidents just after Brexit in several days which police raised an alarm and it is reported as LINKED to Brexit. I am not making anything up.  And before me a British member -an old member- posted his concern about the issue.

I meant that that was what you had made of what I had said. That was not what I had said.

What personal grudge? DO you think mineis some personal grudge, Cocoa? What does any personal feeling has to do with any of this? Referenda are pseudo democracy.

These people have made a decision solely based on lies and toxic media campaigns. Not with a good standing with understanding what they are doing to save their soveriegnty. Everything is a mistake from Cameron pushing this to how it was won. Nobody thought this would happen.

There is no such thing as a country moving by itself in freaking 2016 AD in this world economy or politics. It's going to be catastrophe and it will fuck the world from EU to USA.

Forget economy for a second, are you guys aware what kind of a balance crash is this with world politics? USA willl have virtually no active access in EU from now on. Have you ever heard somewhere called Russia that the world neeeds someone bigger its own size to push when it comes to it? And this will make teh tension between USA and Russia bigger. Not to mention if Trump wins, social reaction with certain groups in the USA will take the example of Brexit.

-British people will get poorer, their life standard will fall seriously.
-On top of that there won't be a real, serious cut down in immigrant flow. They won't get anything they were promised.
-Racism will rise so badly, highly likley there will be riots.
-People will get divided and radicalised. They already are after several days. This will make easier for terrorist groups to recruit or people acting their own behalf of them. 

And when these consequences settle in...if they cannot do more than just fixing the economy ASAP and make people 'happy' -highly unlikley- it is freaking bloodshed and darkness in time.

When people look back from a fundamentally changed world, they will see the Brexit as the beginning. It's an extreme centrifugal movement triggered by stupidity.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 29, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
What are you fucking blind? No, it is not a 'one case' I made, marom. I posted a couple of articles about telling that 57% rise in racist incidents just after Brexit in several days which police raised an alarm and it is reported as LINKED to Brexit. I am not making anything up.  And before me a British member -an old member- posted his concern about the issue.

Linking the expression of xenophobic and racist feelings to Brexit is one thing; linking their existence to it is another. The feelings were present long before Brexit. I wouldn't be so quick to put so much weight on Brexit. Brexit was a mere catalyst. The feelings were around for a long, long time.

If the purpose of human beings is to kill each other, then racism, while stupid, seems like a minor problem.  Certainly the purpose of the Tories and the Blair Laborites, is to join the US in ME predation, for fun and profit.  Blair even profited from back room deals with Qaddafi.

Quote from: Baruch on June 29, 2016, 06:59:25 AM
If the purpose of human beings is to kill each other, then racism, while stupid, seems like a minor problem.  Certainly the purpose of the Tories and the Blair Laborites, is to join the US in ME predation, for fun and profit.  Blair even profited from back room deals with Qaddafi.

A boiling pot boils over - then we notice ... Blaming Brexit for any feelings that are being expressed is ridiculous. The feelings have been present for ages. One has only to go back to back to the gang warfare of the 1950s to see simmering class hatred in the UK. Then there was the Punk movement in the 1970s - xenophobia and racism abounded there. British skinheads have been allied w/Neo-Nazis for decades, have even had KKK reps over pow-wows and White Power solidarity get-togethers. Brexit was just - like what happens w/the hooligans after a football match!

Quote from: marom1963 on June 29, 2016, 08:21:54 AM
A boiling pot boils over - then we notice ... Blaming Brexit for any feelings that are being expressed is ridiculous. The feelings have been present for ages. One has only to go back to back to the gang warfare of the 1950s to see simmering class hatred in the UK. Then there was the Punk movement in the 1970s - xenophobia and racism abounded there. British skinheads have been allied w/Neo-Nazis for decades, have even had KKK reps over pow-wows and White Power solidarity get-togethers. Brexit was just - like what happens w/the hooligans after a football match!

When reality catches up to liberals ... they are shocked, and clutch their pearls ;-)

Quote from: marom1963 on June 29, 2016, 03:49:15 AM
Linking the expression of xenophobic and racist feelings to Brexit is one thing; linking their existence to it is another.

What the fuck does this even mean?

I didn't link nothing's existence to Brexit. I have been posting about Brexit and Brexit related events in the thread I posted about Brexit.

I didn't post a general discussion thread titled; "Why British People are Racist"  or " I think British people are racist and this is why".

I am not making up anything or present a personal home cooked idea either.  I am posting what British people and British police reports and what people cry out as their concern. Something obvious. Something that is open to objective observation.

What are you doing? You keep writing "They were always like that". This is your fucking argument. You don't even know what I am talking about.

QuoteThe feelings were present long before Brexit. I wouldn't be so quick to put so much weight on Brexit. Brexit was a mere catalyst. The feelings were around for a long, long time.

Yes, what I have written in my first post when I said HOW and WHY the LEAVE campaign was designed around minorities, esp. the muslim ones because they knew this would be the reaction. They know their people. And with the rising reports BOTH sides accept, NOW there is a racist crime wave going on that pushed the police on alarm. (What's more I have been writing that since last Februray that this is a deliberatly racist campaign would have very bad consequences, before you were even here.)

But you are a dumb fuck who has no idea what I am saying, what is the issue(s) or what has been actually going on. And I am done with you.

What was that saying? Being more royalist than the king, right? That's what you are.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 29, 2016, 01:28:17 PM
What the fuck does this even mean?

I didn't link nothing's existence to Brexit. I have been posting about Brexit and Brexit related events in the thread I posted about Brexit.

I didn't post a general discussion thread titled; "Why British People are Racist"  or " I think British people are racist and this is why".

I am not making up anything or present a personal home cooked idea either.  I am posting what British people and British police reports and what people cry out as their concern. Something obvious. Something that is open to objective observation.

What are you doing? You keep writing "They were always like that". This is your fucking argument. You don't even know what I am talking about.

Yes, what I have written in my first post when I said HOW and WHY the LEAVE campaign was designed around minorities, esp. the muslim ones because they knew this would be the reaction. They know their people. And with the rising reports BOTH sides accept, NOW there is a racist crime wave going on that pushed the police on alarm. (What's more I have been writing that since last Februray that this is a deliberatly racist campaign would have very bad consequences, before you were even here.)

But you are a dumb fuck who has no idea what I am saying, what is the issue(s) or what has been actually going on. And I am done with you.

I wasn't talking about you. You took what I said entirely too personally.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 29, 2016, 03:41:17 AM
What personal grudge? DO you think mineis some personal grudge, Cocoa? What does any personal feeling has to do with any of this? Referenda are pseudo democracy.

I didn't say that in disagreement, that's just my 2 cents.

Over the last few years the EU has become increasingly disfunctional, intolerably so for several of it's members apparently, and no one has really brought this up. I figure it belongs in the conversation.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 29, 2016, 01:28:17 PM
What the fuck does this even mean?

I didn't link nothing's existence to Brexit. I have been posting about Brexit and Brexit related events in the thread I posted about Brexit.

I didn't post a general discussion thread titled; "Why British People are Racist"  or " I think British people are racist and this is why".

I am not making up anything or present a personal home cooked idea either.  I am posting what British people and British police reports and what people cry out as their concern. Something obvious. Something that is open to objective observation.

What are you doing? You keep writing "They were always like that". This is your fucking argument. You don't even know what I am talking about.

Yes, what I have written in my first post when I said HOW and WHY the LEAVE campaign was designed around minorities, esp. the muslim ones because they knew this would be the reaction. They know their people. And with the rising reports BOTH sides accept, NOW there is a racist crime wave going on that pushed the police on alarm. (What's more I have been writing that since last Februray that this is a deliberatly racist campaign would have very bad consequences, before you were even here.)

But you are a dumb fuck who has no idea what I am saying, what is the issue(s) or what has been actually going on. And I am done with you.

I said before that you can disagree with me all you want but that there is no need to get personal. Stop that. I understand that you disagree w/me. That's enough.

Good for them.

Maybe now Scotland will exit England and Catalonia will exit Spain.

I know I know, this doesn't happen in modern countries, it is such a weird thing.  I mean it is one thing in Kosovo or South Sudan, but they're not real countries like Britain or Spain.  Such silly voters, didn't they know they're supposed to vote the way their betters told them to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_6sU7O43w

"Stupid cry-babies... how dare they be upset that a campaign that is now admitting it won based on several lies and who's win will cost the British people immensely won? What a bunch of pussies that complain their future is being damaged by regressive and xenophobic old fucks who will be dead and won't have to deal with it themselves."

Also; the referendum had no legal standing... the vote still has to pass through the MPs before it is actually turned into law as well as the government actually taking steps to leave the EU... something that it has shown now intentions of doing any time soon. Maybe before you cry about the people still campaigning against Brexit not understanding how a Representative Democracy works you should brush up on your understanding of it yourself.

By the way... nice maturity in that video. Really compelling stuff.


Edit: Fucking christ... I watched even more of the video. I think I developed AIDs.

I didn't know you cared.

Quote from: pr126 on July 03, 2016, 04:35:43 AM
I didn't know you cared.

As someone who supports Scotland's independence and the returning of Northern Ireland to the Irish... English politics always has interest to me. While I think it's absolutely horrible for the world as a whole by causing more division... there is a part of me that takes pleasure in watching the English implode their little world. And if that means the Scots and Northern Irish begin to take more pride in themselves and their history because they are pissed off at being screwed over... even better.

The xenophobic old fucks voted, where the young could not be arsed.

Representative democracy at work.

What  do you find so appealing in the EU?

Quote from: Shiranu on July 03, 2016, 04:41:08 AM
As someone who supports Scotland's independence and the returning of Northern Ireland to the Irish... English politics always has interest to me. While I think it's absolutely horrible for the world as a whole by causing more division... there is a part of me that takes pleasure in watching the English implode their little world. And if that means the Scots and Northern Irish begin to take more pride in themselves and their history because they are pissed off at being screwed over... even better.

I definitely do not favor the break up of the UK. GB has existed since the death of Elizabeth I - and should continue to exist.
The overwhelming majority of the people in N Ireland are of Scottish ancestry - are Scots Irish and Anglo Irish and have NO desire to leave the UK. When the World gets that through its thick skull maybe there will be understanding of why N Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland.

Here's what bugs me about the Brexit thing:

For decades now, supranationalism has been on the rise and much of the world has been getting more and more tightly nit in various trade blocs, especially economic unions like the EU.  The end result includes closer economic/cultural ties between members states.  But what events like Brexit show is that there's strong opposition to this supranational push.  Bring enough pressure to bear, and these institutions can crack.  A common front can easily collapse into a gaggle of states with wildly divergent policies and governments more concerned with parochial interests than common interests.  That's what troubles me about this stuff.

I believe that the EU is a road to globalisation.
One world government? What if you don't happen to like it?

Nowhere to run. Utopia it certainly will not be. Humanity is not yet ready.
Be careful what you wish for...

If the referendum has no standing, then it just becomes part of the ongoing debate.  There are no winners or losers until such time as an action is taken.  It seems like we might be getting ahead of ourselves.  Maybe a referendum is something different in Great Britain.  Politicians are already resigning when nothing has happened.  We have had non binding referendums here in the States too, and I've assumed they are meant to influence public opinion.

Quote from: SGOS on July 03, 2016, 07:35:44 AM
If the referendum has no standing, then it just becomes part of the ongoing debate.  There are no winners or losers until such time as an action is taken.  It seems like we might be getting ahead of ourselves.  Maybe a referendum is something different in Great Britain.  Politicians are already resigning when nothing has happened.  We have had non binding referendums here in the States too, and I've assumed they are meant to influence public opinion.

Yes, you are right, it's not different in the UK and it has no standing until they put it in the motion. Until the article 50 is activated technically they can reverse it. But you know what, EU will force them to go with it. And their position is now 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'.

There are roughly 2 sides to it just for the moment from their point of view, they created the hown of the dilemma, imo.

Politics: Now as the prime minister has to activate the article 50 to start the Brexit they need a general election; a new Prime Minister to do the worst job. He can't win whatever he does, because while he will 'activate' the so called people's will, the result in long term will bury any politician who got along with it an people will blame them in the next 5-10 years and won't remember what they voted for and why. Not to mention whoever will be the Prime Minister to initiate the article will be the Prime Minister who broke up the UK or if he doesn't he will be the Prime Minister who didn't respect 'democracy' or people's will. (This will screw up the political map of the country just by itself.)

People: General elections they need to carry out that will give that Prime Minster to make the decision will be in the full shadow of this referendum. It will impoverish the whole democratic process of an election under normal circumstances, because people will vote for or against in mind with extreme tendencies and fear created by scaremonger policies of both sides, instead of considering a whole set of issues of their country.

The general perception about referenda is always as if they are something like the mythical shinning democracy in fairy tales of Anicent Greece and that it is something for the good. They are not. This is a delusion that has never been real and never will be. Direct democracy for progress is a fairy tale. And politicians will use this as if it is the 'power of people' as always do or if not worked they will dump it on the responsible administration. But in any case people have lost big. 

At this point one could say "Oh but they voted themselves, so they decided their fate, let them break up ". But globalisation doesn't work that way. World doesn't work that way. Hasn't been for a long time. There is no life out of a bloc.

But majority has already voted for the Leave and if they decide NOT TO LEAVE, addition to the money they have already lost, they will also lose reputation, integrity and will have to sort out a high level of social distress. Not to mention the epic international embarassment of the whole deal. Europe is not like the US. It's a life in very close knit relationships in every scale in close quarters; nothing is a cut and dry deal between two sides, but workings of a CLUB with many members with various aspects.

Of course, it is better if they reverse the Leave in long term than what could come to pass in the first decade when the Leave happens in domestic and international terms. Because when people get poorer and poorer and their life standards fall down below, NOONE will remember who voted for Brexit with what reasons, but just how epically they all failed. That will be a hard set of consequences to face. But then again, this time people and every opposition available will blame the Brexit that didn't happen for every issue this time.

Now, it is a LOSE/LOSE situation. They have already lost a lot.

-Nothing they were 'promised' will happen if they get out, because they have been misled, been lied and their life will fall down for the worst. They will face social distress.
-They will lose all their political and economical integrity and again they will face social distress, if they decide not to get out.

-EU will force them to carry out the decision they made and stand behind the show.


What have they accomplished is an epic mess. Because EU won't break up as everyone seems to dream, but change; adapt to a new order and continue to expand and survive exactly because of this reason while who is left/rushed out will diminish and eventually perish if they cannot adapt to that change. It's all about the first rule. Adapt or perish.



We are not living in the 16th century. This is not Henry the VIII severing ties with the Roman Catholic Church.

#brexit #fuckthesuperstate