I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.
I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.
Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?
Well shit! You got me. I'm denouncing atheism now and founding the first church of the immaculate tooth fairy! Praise Mertyl! Her first name is Mertyl TF.
You're contradicting yourself because you said you agree with the post but the post proves Mertyl and the tooth fairy false.
The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).
Ever had a tooth ache?
That seems like a stupid a stupid response.
After some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.
I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/Q_as_God.jpg)
An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god, even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him. You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.
It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.
Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.
The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA), while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.
Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.
tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.
I feel sorry for people who want me to go to Hell. If there was such a place it would be far more interesting that Heaven and I could still fuck with the Christians, at least the ones that wished me to Hell, because they'd be right there beside me.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:16:20 PM
That seems like a stupid a stupid response.
but coming to an atheist site to tell us we're all going to hell is a GREAT fucking idea! Why didn't I think of it first?
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/Sadjesus-1.png) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/Sadjesus-1.png.html)
Quick show of hands everyone...be honest now. How many of you just realized the nature of your sins after reading this threat..err thread and felt the JOY of Jesus enter your hearts?
It was something you ate.. :lol:
Honest question for the OP. What makes you think that 1. this line of crap hasn't been disproven countless times before? and 2. That we need/want to be saved?
But in regards to the resurrection as "proof", answer this if you can. Why is it that in an area full of historians that wrote down EVERYTHING is there no contemporary record of this supposed resurrection occurring? These historians wrote down everyday occurrences, why did they not write down something that even today would be considered massive news? Any of the supposed miracles preformed by jesus would have been big news, yet there is no record of jesus even existing outside of the bible(a book not written until well after jesus death).
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
But....
There is no God.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 22, 2014, 05:41:37 PM
Quick show of hands everyone...be honest now. How many of you just realized the nature of your sins after reading this threat..err thread and felt the JOY of Jesus enter your hearts?
It was something you ate.. :lol:
Ok, you got me. I'm convinced.
Quote from: Mermaid on March 22, 2014, 06:10:56 PM
Ok, you got me. I'm convinced.
It was something you ate?
Quote from: Mermaid on March 22, 2014, 06:14:36 PM
...
I've been struggling to condense all of my biblical knowledge into three dots. Thanks! :lol:
Cool. Sounds good.
Sent from Planet X
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.
I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.
Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?
[/quoteQuote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.
I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.
Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?
Dude what the hell you are smoking ? I want some of that !
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Loads of cretinous religious bullshit
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U64hIYFSOdc/UwAuHrdsK4I/AAAAAAAAG4g/1-mGsdbac9g/s1600/cordially.png)
I don't understand why people have to such assholes and tell people they need to believe in their imaginary friend otherwise they suffer for eternity. Do yourself a favor and go sit on the toilet, because you're full of shit.
Sent from Planet X
Having we had this exact same line of bullshit before? I'm getting deja-vu.
I am equally afraid of Hell and Mordor.
Except so called Hell does not exist. It's just an imaginary place to scare people like you so that you don't have to think for yourself and be a good ol mindless Christian. :pai:
QuoteI guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. blah blah blah
"my mommy and daddy told me to believe and I do"
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so.
I thought we banned you already.
OP, I wish you, yourself, has a Hell you can go to. Because you're making believers look like syphilitic sores, which can only mean you are working for Satan.
I think we're being a tad harsh. Jamed brings us the very reasonable premise that we're all going straight to hell and we mock him! :blahblah:
If you just turn your lives over to Christ absolutely nothing will happen other than a few billion brain cells die and really, isn't that a small price to pay to not have to worry about real problems in our lives like rent, food, survival and rational thought? :dance:
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it.
Thanks to your brilliant post, I don't know how to disprove any of the gods now.
I don't have time to worship over 4000 gods! What am I going to do?
"The Universe cannot come from nothing, it is impossible for something to come from nothing!"
"God, the far more complex entity, can come from nothing".
Either nothing can come from "nothing" and we aren't actually having this argument atm, or something CAN come from nothing. If God can come from nothing, a far less complex system (the universe) can too.
This of course implies that there ever was a state of nothingness, which I am not sure I buy.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 22, 2014, 08:13:02 PM
"The Universe cannot come from nothing, it is impossible for something to come from nothing!"
God, the far more complex entity, can come from nothing
God can't come from something since He always existed.
QuoteEither nothing can come from "nothing" and we aren't actually having this argument atm, or something CAN come from nothing. If God can come from nothing, a far less complex system (the universe) can too.
This of course implies that there ever was a state of nothingness, which I am not sure I buy.
Since God always existed then there was not always nothing.
QuoteGod can't come from something since He always existed.
The Universe didn't/can't come from something since it always existed.
Fucking troll.
James, are you the formrr agriculture secretary under Reagan? if so then that would explain a lot of why I'm overwhelmed with the thought of telling you you're full of shit. :think:
Almost everything that we are aware of follows rules of physics and nature as understood by science. The universe itself has been shown, through the most recent discovery of inflation, to have originated at a known time in the past. This proves a scientific theory that has stood since Einstein. Theories that were derived by learning the laws and rules of nature and physics.
Your god supposedly created them but does not follow the same rules he supposedly created with the universe. Your god is not provable to exist by the very rules he supposedly created. Your god is one of thousands that are now no longer worshiped because they were proven false. Your god is no more true than any of them.
Your holy book is full of flaws, false history and contradictions that prove it to be a work of fiction and terribly flawed. Your belief is based not on any knowledge but only belief you cannot prove. Quote your bible all you want, make any statement you want, you can't prove it and are merely making threats against people more learned than you.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 22, 2014, 08:42:28 PM
The Universe didn't/can't come from something since it always existed.
Beat me to it.
AND WE CAN'T GO TO HELL BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.
I went to Hell, Arizona once. Well, actually just passed through hitch hiking. The real hell is in Kentucky I think.
Am I the only one wondering why these guys are able to post outside the intro page? This is at least the 2nd person today that posted complete, utter bullshit with less than 10 posts and outside the introduction forum.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Why does the universe center around you?
You're the one who believes that the All-Powerful Creator of the Universe gives a flying fuck what you do with your life or what you believe.
He only cares about pebbles, man. That's why he made so many of them.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.
I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.
Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?
He may take a very dim view of those that subscribe to the words passed down by Middle Eastern goat herders than the truths revealed through nature and better scientific understanding of the universe and sentence you to hell. Better to believe in no god at all than believe in the wrong one because each time you pray to the wrong god you piss him off more and more.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 22, 2014, 10:48:01 PM
Am I the only one wondering why these guys are able to post outside the intro page? This is at least the 2nd person today that posted complete, utter bullshit with less than 10 posts and outside the introduction forum.
Wolf made a pretty big deal out of the whole "we're getting rid of the 10 post requirement" deal. Guess you missed it.
Oh. Yeah I did miss that. Never mind.
Sent from Planet X
This copy-past BS again?
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony.
Explain the Branch Davidians, both the ones who died and the ones who are still faithful.
No point in writing any more; not like he's actually looking for an honest discussion.
To the OP: what you have stated is simply unsupported assertions. Prove your god exists, or we have no reason to believe in it.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 22, 2014, 07:29:21 PM
I think we're being a tad harsh. Jamed brings us the very reasonable premise that we're all going straight to hell and we mock him! :blahblah:
If you just turn your lives over to Christ absolutely nothing will happen other than a few billion brain cells die and really, isn't that a small price to pay to not have to worry about real problems in our lives like rent, food, survival and rational thought? :dance:http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2037
But if you accept it as truth and it's not nothing happens. If you reject it and it is true you burn in hell. :rollseyes:. Why do we entertain this crap anymore?
Quote from: Atheon on March 23, 2014, 02:30:38 AM
To the OP: what you have stated is simply unsupported assertions. Prove your god exists, or we have no reason to believe in it.
Everything that was stated a proof was given in the opening post. You were unable to overturn those proofs.
Is this about the retarded god who needs to kill people in order to forgive people?
Why can God exist but the universe can't? Where did his power to transcend time come from and why is he the only one with these powers? Does this mean god follows natural laws as well, and if so who created these laws?
If God transcends natural law, how? "Because he does! " is not an acceptable answer, we need to know the mechanics. If these mechanics are neither observable or testable, how do you expect people to just disregard both logic and evidence that point to your god being impossible and nature coming about through natural means?
Finally, scientific evidence is pointing more and more towards a naturalistic explanation. Does this mean modern science is a conspiracy, or that god set up the universe to appear as if it was created naturally? And if so why would he intentionally trick people into not finding his creation to be the truth?
Your god violates natural laws, is a logical impossibility, is neither observable or testable and intentionally leads people away from him, damning them to eternal suffering. You might want to evaluate your beliefs because you either believe in the nonexistent or the most evil being to ever exist.
I've seen enough copy paste bullshit for today.
banhammer ahoy
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 23, 2014, 03:43:01 AM
Everything that was stated a proof was given in the opening post. You were unable to overturn those proofs.
Oh yeah?????? BEAT THIS!!!!!
(http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4657769_700b.jpg)
edit: whoops. didn't notice the ban. lol
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 23, 2014, 03:43:01 AM
Everything that was stated a proof was given in the opening post. You were unable to overturn those proofs.
Yep, because they're imaginary.
50 replies and a ban, and I just woke up.
Banned in under 10 posts. Good job mods.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 08:25:41 PM
God The universe can't come from something since Heit's always existed.
Since God the universe always existed then there was not always nothing.
FIFY
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 23, 2014, 08:31:33 AM
I don't get something, may be I am misinformed. Not paying much attention. According to this people's holly book, only somewhere around 140 000 people will go to heaven, right? So if you think the world population or their own population in the world, almost every 'soul' is already a toy of Satan, right? I mean, basically almost all Christians are sinners and going to Hell. And they are already known to god.
How do they bend this one?
It was to be 12,000 MEN from the twelve tribes of Israel, so 144,000 would be raptured, IIRC. No Christians.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 23, 2014, 03:43:01 AM
Everything that was stated a proof was given in the opening post. You were unable to overturn those proofs.
Stop ignoring the post I made on the first page, you fucking liar.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2014, 09:43:42 AM
It was to be 12,000 MEN from the twelve tribes of Israel, so 144,000 would be raptured, IIRC. No Christians.
Wait, so now you're telling me that if I manage to con my way into heaven, when I get there I'm going to find 12,000 jewish men and no women? Sign me up.
Quote from: Johan on March 23, 2014, 12:19:55 PM
Wait, so now you're telling me that if I manage to con my way into heaven, when I get there I'm going to find 12,000 jewish men and no women? Sign me up.
No, you're going to find 144,000 Jewish men who were transported bodily to Heaven when the Rapture occurs.
Now that's a party!
Quote from: Mermaid on March 22, 2014, 06:09:38 PM
But....
There is no God.
Ha, but a statement without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on March 23, 2014, 12:45:22 PM
Ha, but a statement without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Can you prove that?
;)
Shit. I wanted to ask this dude how often he crap and fart.
Quote from: leo on March 23, 2014, 12:56:40 PM
Shit. I wanted to ask this dude how often he crap and fart.
I started a thread over at JREF asking "why defecation". Never got a good answer, of course.
Quote from: leo on March 23, 2014, 12:56:40 PM
Shit. I wanted to ask this dude how often he crap and fart.
There are meds for that physical disposition, but for his state of mind, meds have limited success.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on March 23, 2014, 01:02:33 PM
There are meds for that physical disposition, but for his state of mind, meds have limited success.
Yep this dude is insane and somehow he reminds me of Eve.
Quote from: leo on March 23, 2014, 01:14:10 PM
Yep this dude is insane and somehow he reminds me of Eve.
Eve has had a deep influence. We have been cursed.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.
This is a failing of your intelligence, not evidence that your imaginary friend is real.
I'm glad you're banned. You are much to stupid to talk to.
Banned after 5 posts, wow, that one really went after the highscore.
QuoteI don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing.
Well, I don't understand how someone with the ability to construct a sentence can fall for the obvious pile of shit which is your bible and thinks that some invisible sky-daddy just poofed the universe into existence "out of nothing." Perhaps you are just stupid?
Since I can't start a new topic I'm replying to this one - here's something I was wondering about:
Was Hell stolen by Christianity from Greek/Roman mythology?
Prior to Israel being taken over by the Roman Empire, I don't believe that the Jewish religion had a concept of "hell" - they believed in an afterlife known as "Sheol", which was a gloomy place of abode by the dead, but not a place of torment.
However in Greek mythology, there were basically 3 afterlifes - Elysium (basically Heaven - a realm of paradise for Heros), Hades (a general realm of abode for the dead, which was neither "good" nor "bad"), and Tartarus ("Hell", a place of eternal torture by fire for the wicked).
It actually wasn't until the New Testament that "Hell" even began to be mentioned. In fact one of the words that the New Testament uses as a reference to hell translates as "Tartaro" (I believe) - so it's a direct reference to the Tartarus of Greek/Roman mythology.
This makes me think that the entire concept of Hell which fundamentalist Christians use to scare the weak-minded into conforming to their religious beliefs was actually stolen from Greek mythology all along.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 22, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Well shit! You got me. I'm denouncing atheism now and founding the first church of the immaculate tooth fairy! Praise Mertyl! Her first name is Mertyl TF.
Actually Pascal's wager says you should convert to Catholicism.
Think of it this way - if you convert to, say, Baptist Christianity and they happen to be right, then as long as you're "saved" it doesn't matter how much evil you do, because Jesus will still forgive you.
But if Catholics are right, then unless you confess all your mortal sins to your Priest before your deathbed, then you're destined for hell. Sure this may be unnecessary according to Baptists? But what if they're wrong? Why take the risk?
So the safest option is for you "and all Baptists or "born again Christians"" is to convert to Catholicism and confess all your sins to your priest. This way if Catholicism is right, then you're still going to Heaven - but if Baptists are right, then you have nothing to lose either way.
Quote from: Ace101 on September 18, 2014, 03:36:17 AM
Since I can't start a new topic I'm replying to this one - here's something I was wondering about:
Was Hell stolen by Christianity from Greek/Roman mythology?
Well, the image of God christians know as the old man with the white long beard is a carboncopy of Zeus. Plus, Christianity boomed in the same place as the Roman gods did before. While there is very little about something that could be concidered 'hell' in the bible, the concept probably did exist for the majority of the people before Constantine made them change their religion. Besides, seeing as the gospels were written to decades and hundreds of years after the supposed coming of the christ, there is no telling that the leaders of said church did not just snuck in a few references that they could exploit.
Of course, as Ken Ham would say: "How would I know, I wasn't there!" And I would concede that I haven't thoroughly examined this part of history, so part of the above post is guesswork and such. But, the important part is, whether Christian hell is a ripoff or an original concept; the proof for it being real is stil completely nonexistant.
P.S. If you haven't already, you can start a 'newcomer thread' in which you tell us about yourself and we welcome you.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing.
Welcome, James. May I assume from the emanations of courtesy and love that you are a Christian?
Did you know that when physicists talk about a universe possibly coming from nothing, they don't mean absolute nothingness, but hard vacuum, which is filled with quantum foam (which seems to have the property of not being able not to exist)? Did you know that is only one of several hypotheses for a natural origin of the universe, and none of the others involve 'hard' nothingness either?
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
We only have evidence for causation from something.
That does seem to be a property of everything on a human scale within the universe. However, we find causeless effects on the quantum scale. Quantum foam is pretty much all causeless effects. And it would be a fallacy of composition to assume that the rules that apply within the universe apply TO the universe. If a wall is made of unbreakable bricks, it does not follow that the wall itself is unbreakable.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence.
I'm flattered you equate scientists with atheists, but at least some of the people who claim that also believe in God. It doesn't make sense to claim that the universe could only come into existence if cause and effect applies as it does within the universe. Lack of cause and effect implies that the universe could be an effect without a cause.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.
Some people say you can't post without thinking. Sure you can. You post thinklessly.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so.
The problem with Zeno's paradox is that we can easily observe that it doesn't stop anything from happening. If your philosophical objection is at odds with observed reality, there's something wrong with the objection. As becomes apparent if you stop to think that same objection applies to a God who has existed for eternity getting around to doing something.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.
Yeah, who ever first came up with the idea of the past stretching back for eternity was an idiot.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths.
Because you think he said so?
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.
The accounts not being eyewitness naturally accounts for it nicely.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing.
Good think we didn't claim they had a group hallucination.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony.
None of the supposed eyewitnesses wrote down their account at the time. The earliest Gospel wasn't written prior to 40 years later, and seems to be based on a body of stories about Jesus and sayings attributed to him.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day.
That isn't even worth the trouble to bother to link to modern accounts of people injured just as severely recoving consciousness and being able to walk on the third day in wilderness conditions. If you like, Google 'amazing survival stories'.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses.
Yes, we have stories written by people who say they're eyewitness accounts. They're hearsay, pretty much by definition.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.
Yet Jesus seemed to have had trouble being recognized by people who ought to have known him.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin.
You've got a problem then, because the scriptures you follow are pretty clear on everyone being a sinner.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life.
Because God can't change his mind about damning everyone without going through some theater first, eh?
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God.
Because what God loves most is people who believe in fantastic things because they're in a book. But it has to be the right book, compiled over centuries, with many different authors, with what's included or excluded voted on by a committee. That book, from Classical Times in the Near East, and no other. Because that's just how God rolls.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail.
Glad you don't go in for eternal excruciating torture like some of your fellows.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT.
At this point in your post, that's starting to sound pretty good.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.
And no do-overs once you find out God is real and he's your particular version of God, it's cheating to choose your faith or no faith without the blindfold on!
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only.
Notice you didn't even try to find out if there were other accounts in antiquity of cult leaders being resurrected. There were.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins.
And it must be in an obscure area of the Levant, and it must be done only once, no appearances on main inhabited continents. And the conditions for salvation must be such that everyone who is born before the missionaries get there is damned along with those who get the message.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.
If you're right, and your ability to post logically and persuasively is a taste of what's to come, the overcomer believers are going to govern very badly.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it.
And if you can't disprove something, you think it must be true. You would make a very popular poker player.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28).
Excellent, I was born again, so I'm in!
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed.
Um, contemporary accounts, Roman records of the trial and execution of Jesus, an account of all the dead people walking around Jerusalem after the 'resurrection', better sources than 'church tradition' for the lives and deaths of the apostles...I could go on.
Quote from: JamesWatt on March 22, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?
Why did it center around Paul? He didn't even have to ask for a vision to get one. Supposedly.
what makes people assume that the universe can't come from nothing? Why is that not a possibility? I'm sorry but your argument is invalid. that's like saying ah ha! My hair exists so hair gnomes also exist! See how it doesn't hold up?
If something can't come from nothing where did God come from? Man kinds ignorance, that's where. :wall: Solitary
PS If God just is, why can't reality just be, with do beginning either?
(http://i.imgur.com/ffMIi2f.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ffMIi2f)
You're all just discounting the'Big *POOF*' theory.. Which personally I think should be a TV show.. Oh wait..it is staring Pat Robertson..
How the universe was formed is within nothing anyone can assume, but i will always trust science in its theories of how the universe was created well before religion, seen as how all reasonable debate just end when you use fictional made up stories that work against science itself.
I've heard one theory that there was a universe before ours, and the matter that formed from it was compressed much like a dwarf star compresses matter, and from that, where they was something before that died out like how suns die out, it sparked a new formation of matter from whatever same before.
Trying to make the excuse that this could only happen because of a made up fairy tale entity, when science has given account of how dwarf stars form and die, is going against every piece of scientific finding we have today. And I am so happy that we live in such a time that science has found such discovery, and is working to understanding the nature of the universe itself, all of which religion doesn't want to follow, since its understanding of the universe will always end with 'magic explains it'.
Children explain things in the real with magic, children grow up.
Also, when it has been said that matter cannot be destroyed, it can only be shaped and turned into other forms of matter, that made more sense to me then being told 'god has always been' and he has shaped the universe'. It makes me mad, because it has been science that has done so much in our understanding of the universe, while religion has always held us back.
Has anyone ever thought about the possibility that our universe is the White Hole end of a Black hole? That maybe stuff is still entering, which is why the universe is still expanding. I'm sure I'll get shot down on that, but wanted to ask.
Quote from: doorknob on September 18, 2014, 10:30:45 AM
what makes people assume that the universe can't come from nothing? Why is that not a possibility? I'm sorry but your argument is invalid. that's like saying ah ha! My hair exists so hair gnomes also exist! See how it doesn't hold up?
It has to not come from nothing, else there's no reason for a god. A god that came from nothing...
Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 12:58:20 PM
Has anyone ever thought about the possibility that our universe is the White Hole end of a Black hole? That maybe stuff is still entering, which is why the universe is still expanding. I'm sure I'll get shot down on that, but wanted to ask.
Actually, that is sort of what I think too. Can anybody shoot it down?
Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 12:58:20 PM
Has anyone ever thought about the possibility that our universe is the White Hole end of a Black hole? That maybe stuff is still entering, which is why the universe is still expanding. I'm sure I'll get shot down on that, but wanted to ask.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that was the case, you'd see expansion from a central point. Instead, there's expansion pretty much everywhere. Space itself is expanding, not a point in space.
Good point, but what is at the beginning, if anything? The Tooth Fairy? :winkle:
Quote from: Solitary on September 18, 2014, 03:18:07 PM
Good point, but what is at the beginning, if anything? The Tooth Fairy? :winkle:
Hey, you can really go places with this. Could be the universe is the period from some incredibly vast cosmic mother. The big bang was basically flushing the toilet.
The beginning?? Can there ever be a 'beginning'? If there is a beginning, what came before that, then? A New Beginning????? This is making my head hurt.
If the black holes are sucking up energy, it must go somewhere. So, is each black hole budding a new universe? Each one beginning with a 'big bang'? That does not answer the ultimate question, but this universe could have spawned from another one. So there is an infinite number of universes. And each one spawning others.
So, I would say that there is not an ultimate beginning--therefore there cannot be an ultimate end. Since I live in a finite life, in a finite world, that is hard to comprehend.
I personally think black holes are supermassive gravity compression wells, that sucks up all matters in it, and sprays it back out into another form of matter, like subatomic particles.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 18, 2014, 06:17:41 PM
The beginning?? Can there ever be a 'beginning'? If there is a beginning, what came before that, then? A New Beginning????? This is making my head hurt.
If the black holes are sucking up energy, it must go somewhere. So, is each black hole budding a new universe? Each one beginning with a 'big bang'? That does not answer the ultimate question, but this universe could have spawned from another one. So there is an infinite number of universes. And each one spawning others.
So, I would say that there is not an ultimate beginning--therefore there cannot be an ultimate end. Since I live in a finite life, in a finite world, that is hard to comprehend.
Time is relative, Its all the same thing really. Perhaps there was no beginning, there was ALWAYS something. And that something was not created in the beginning by someone, but rather, always was in existence.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on September 18, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
Time is relative, Its all the same thing really. Perhaps there was no beginning, there was ALWAYS something. And that something was not created in the beginning by someone, but rather, always was in existence.
I guess so. That has to be it--in fact, it could be no other way. But my entire life I've looked for beginnings and endings--most probably because I had a beginning and I'll have an end.