Tolerance: Muslims Versus Jews

[Mike Cl]

To me ideals are a beacon, something to strive for and to guide your way, but should never be held dogmatically and never imposed on others without reason. And also we should recognize that against objective reality many of our ideals are meaningless, since they are mainly centered around our subjective concerns.

You say--To me ideals are a beacon, something to strive for and to guide your way, but should never be held dogmatically and never imposed on others without reason. I wholeheartedly agree. 

But when you say-- And also we should recognize that against objective reality many of our ideals are meaningless, since they are mainly centered around our subjective concerns.  I say, wait a moment.  We do need to be aware of the realities of the world--fully aware.  But we should not resign ourselves to them.  Yes, we have to act upon those realities.  But we need not disregard our ideals to do that.  I ideals are never meaningless.  It was a reality that in the 50's in the South that Negros (they were not Blacks, then) we at the bottom of the pile and at the back of the bus in all respects.  That was objective reality--and had been since they arrived on these shores.  Yet, the ideal of actual freedom was still present.  Rosa Parks found that one day, the Zeitgeist of that particular moment was such that an ideal broke through.  This was not the first time Rosa or others had done what she did.  And not the last.  It was, however, a time when an objective state gave way to an ideal.  One cannot predict when that will happen.  It just does.  So, I see that as a reason not to give up our ideals.  For if we do, and submit to the objective reality of the times, those objective times will last forever.  What I regard as an ideal will take a long, long time to come to pass (if ever), but that does not mean I have to just give up.

[aitm]

But a lot of countries, would have rattled sabres at Denmark so that they could show they didn't want to have a war.

I certainly would... :72:

[Mike Cl]

Well ... if you examine your own words, from a perspective other than your own (namely the other billions of people) you are going to have a hard time ... given each one of us wants a personal custom utopia ... to get any cooperation.  Any real society has to have more than one person in it ... and at that point the idea of individualism is toast.  But of course there is a continuum ... but perhaps that is merely mixing two bad ideas together?
Mike---No shit, Charlie!  Except, I would suggest that the average person in any society today would want the same ideal that I do.  And that would be to be allowed to live reasonably left alone, to raise a family, make a living and live in peace.  Yes, that is idealism--but not, at least to me, something that cannot come to pass.  No, it will not just one day come to be.  It is a continuum and will progress in the old two steps forward, one step back process.  And whether or not my 'ideal' is a bad idea, that is entirely in your beholders eyes.

No, the US was very fortunate in the 1930s, other than the Depression.  If we had shared a border with Germany, like France or Poland ... things would have gotten ugly real fast, because the German soldier was more efficient at killing people, excepting the Japanese soldier ... than any other kind.  Fortunately German submarines couldn't steam into Dallas TX ;-)
Mike--Geography has always played a large part in the political history of the US.  Isolation for just about any European country is impossible.  Which is why the Versailles Treaty was a huge reason for WWII.  Yes, the German and Japanese soldiers were better killing machines--at the beginning.  Later one we matched them savage fighter for savage fighter--probably became better.  As for German subs in Houston--did not get there--but they could and did reach the Gulf of Mexico.

And if you aren't a survivalist ... then my comment about reality TV won't make sense, even if you had seen episodes.  I am not a survivalist myself, and I only catch bits and pieces of the survival shows ... like using scuba in icy water to dredge for gold in Alaska.
Mike--Nope, not a survivalist and don't watch those types of TV shows.  The closest I get to survivalist shows is American Picker.

[Mike Cl]

War has always existed and will always exist. Even monkeys go to war against other monkeys. And when one side wins, they kill everyone on the other side - males, females and infants. We're not monkeys, and will never be but we are predators, have always been, and will always be. It's in our nature. We are worse than monkeys, in the sense that we kill not only for territory or other tangible reasons but on the basis of a certain ideology. It's only when we invented the nukes that we realized that a nuclear war could bring our own extinction. So great care was taken to prevent that, but conventional wars are going to be with us for a very long time.

As for the US being the so-called "police of the world", if ever the US pulls out of that role, other big powers will try to fill in. The risk of greater conflicts will be higher, not less.

It is always instructive to study animal behavior and then think about how it applies to humans; for we are indeed, animals.  We are not only predators, but the king/queen of the scavengers, as well. Humans will do anything to survive--like most other animals.  And as for war--as Fallout 3 and Fallout:New Vegas says--And war.............war never changes.  You are correct, war has been with humans and will be for a very long time.  That does not mean forever.  I do think that as time passes, more and more humans will begin to realize that humans cannot exist if war does not change.  It may never totally go away, but it will have to be managed somehow, channeled, somehow, to be much less destructive.  Or our species may simply kill themselves--a sort of mutual suicide.  Evolution is most always a slow, slow process.  And changing war is like that--a slow slow process.  Yes, I am idealistic about this--but that's me.  I view the way to change akin to the one more rat into the box idea.  Rats in a box are peaceful until you add that one more rat--then hell breaks loose.  My ideal is like that--how many idealists need to be added to human societies before war changes?  Before a bit of the ideal becomes real?  I don't know.  Like I admit to--I am an idealist and romantic at heart.

As for the US being police of the world--well, that could just as easily be used against us.  The so-called terrorist groups are not made up of stupid people--not the leadership.  What was the real object of the 9/11 attack?  To cause bedlam in the US so they could just walk in and take over?  Nobody thinks that.  Then what?  I suggest it may have been to get us to become a bigger cop and stronger cop of the world.  Why?  Because we will become so over extended that we will bleed ourselves to death.  How many Iraq wars can we stand?  As it is now, our middle is rotting out.  Our infrastructure is rusting away.  And we cannot afford to address that problem because we are busy being the world's police.  How about we fix ourselves; if not, we will simply rust away.  We will be kept busy addressing so many hot spots around the world that one day, we will have few roads left--NY City will not have water, for all the mains will be broken; bridges will be too feeble to hold traffic--and on and on.  Yet, we will still be looking for hot spots to go fix.  And it has been shown we are not very good at fixing those hot spots and we are not very good at fixing ourselves.  Not right now we are not--I think we aught to stop trying to fix the world and fix us.

[josephpalazzo]

It is always instructive to study animal behavior and then think about how it applies to humans; for we are indeed, animals.  We are not only predators, but the king/queen of the scavengers, as well. Humans will do anything to survive--like most other animals.  And as for war--as Fallout 3 and Fallout:New Vegas says--And war.............war never changes.  You are correct, war has been with humans and will be for a very long time.  That does not mean forever.  I do think that as time passes, more and more humans will begin to realize that humans cannot exist if war does not change.  It may never totally go away, but it will have to be managed somehow, channeled, somehow, to be much less destructive.  Or our species may simply kill themselves--a sort of mutual suicide.  Evolution is most always a slow, slow process.  And changing war is like that--a slow slow process.  Yes, I am idealistic about this--but that's me.  I view the way to change akin to the one more rat into the box idea.  Rats in a box are peaceful until you add that one more rat--then hell breaks loose.  My ideal is like that--how many idealists need to be added to human societies before war changes?  Before a bit of the ideal becomes real?  I don't know.  Like I admit to--I am an idealist and romantic at heart.

As for the US being police of the world--well, that could just as easily be used against us.  The so-called terrorist groups are not made up of stupid people--not the leadership.  What was the real object of the 9/11 attack?  To cause bedlam in the US so they could just walk in and take over?  Nobody thinks that.  Then what?  I suggest it may have been to get us to become a bigger cop and stronger cop of the world.  Why?  Because we will become so over extended that we will bleed ourselves to death.  How many Iraq wars can we stand?  As it is now, our middle is rotting out.  Our infrastructure is rusting away.  And we cannot afford to address that problem because we are busy being the world's police.  How about we fix ourselves; if not, we will simply rust away.  We will be kept busy addressing so many hot spots around the world that one day, we will have few roads left--NY City will not have water, for all the mains will be broken; bridges will be too feeble to hold traffic--and on and on.  Yet, we will still be looking for hot spots to go fix.  And it has been shown we are not very good at fixing those hot spots and we are not very good at fixing ourselves.  Not right now we are not--I think we aught to stop trying to fix the world and fix us.

On many points I agree with you. Note that the infrastructure could be easily fixed if taxes on the rich could be increased by 2-3%, or shut down tax haven account ($600 billions/year in government revenue). Needed: political will to do it, maybe with the next president, who knows.

I agree with your point that we shouldn't try fixing other countries's problems. But we can't totally ignore them either, and should provide help with others when asked.

The war in Iraq ( the one in 1991) was a huge mistake. It was at the request of Saudi Arabia, a theocracy versus a secular government under Saddam Hussein,  and the US under Bush father blew it completely.  Then the problem was that this was never discussed in the aftermath of 1991, and so we ended up repeating that mistake in 2003, and we will most likely repeat it again as we haven't  been able to discuss it with the country deeply divided along partisan lines.

[Baruch]

Joe - Iraq 91 wasn't just because the Saudis asked us nicely.  They ordered us.  But the clincher was George Sr meeting Thatcher at the Aspen conference, and she convinced him.  The same thing happened in 2003 ... without Tony Blair ... it would have never happened ... George Jr was too busy chocking on pretzels while Darth Cheney was running things .. in his case carrying out the PNAC ... which Obama is still faithfully doing.  The relations and actions of the "great leaders who get there because they are ubermenschen" is devious and stupid to the point of insanity.

Mike - Yes, my mother and I both enjoy American Picker ... because we both enjoy antiques.  Since we are both antiques ourselves, it comes natural ;-)

[jonb]

In Syria we are bombing everyone but Assad, including christards and even atheist groups, it is no wonder that the west is finding harder and harder line enemies forming up against us, and with the refugees that are being produced the right wing in Europe are starting to get very twitchy and might turn not just on the immigrants but the people they see as causing the immigration.

We are digging a hole, I think it is time to stop digging.

[Baruch]

Jonb ... you and I are part of the special relationship more than you realize ;-)  Like brothers who don't quite like each other ... but since 1913 (FedRes and Income Tax as prep for WW I) inseparable ;-)  France was a nice lay, but you can't marry her ;-))  If the West has to go down in flames ... I would rather do it with GB than with anyone else ... felt this way all my Cold War life.  But The Day After and Threads ... are potentially real.  Don't poke the Bear or the Dragon.

[josephpalazzo]

Joe - Iraq 91 wasn't just because the Saudis asked us nicely.  They ordered us. 

Not necessarily. The Bushes and the Royal Saudis knew each other for over 30 years before Iraq 1991 through multiple oil deals. A simple request on the phone with most likely the right tone of voice would have done the job.

[Baruch]

Not necessarily. The Bushes and the Royal Saudis knew each other for over 30 years before Iraq 1991 through multiple oil deals. A simple request on the phone with most likely the right tone of voice would have done the job.

The dance that President George W did for his Saudi hosts was a tell.  The Bush family is slavish to any autocracy that pays well, Nazi or Saudi.

[josephpalazzo]

The dance that President George W did for his Saudi hosts was a tell.  The Bush family is slavish to any autocracy that pays well, Nazi or Saudi.

Difficult to decide who is the ventriloquist and who is the puppet. I'm hoping that Jeb doesn't get the nomination.

[pr126]

The dance that President George W did for his Saudi hosts was a tell.  The Bush family is slavish to any autocracy that pays well, Nazi or Saudi.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Baruch]

Yes, Obama is a "house n****r" just as Zawahiri said when Obama was elected.  He is also George W version 3 and 4.  But he isn't a Muslim ... just a quisling.  The Clintons are Bush wannabes.

[Baruch]

Difficult to decide who is the ventriloquist and who is the puppet. I'm hoping that Jeb doesn't get the nomination.

I agree, but they have Georg P, son of JEB ... as their backup plan.  They aren't debauched enough to run Neil ... the third son.  Neil's crooked bank was responsible for my first mortgage ... and I have never forgiven him underwriting the company I bought my first property from (false valuation ... which is what Silverado specialized in).

[josephpalazzo]

I agree, but they have Georg P, son of JEB ... as their backup plan. 

One thing at a time. Nix Jeb, than see what happens next.

They aren't debauched enough to run Neil ... the third son.  Neil's crooked bank was responsible for my first mortgage ... and I have never forgiven him underwriting the company I bought my first property from (false valuation ... which is what Silverado specialized in).

Interesting...