Started by Berati, May 19, 2014, 05:45:59 PM
Quote from: Bibliofagus on May 21, 2014, 02:48:38 PMQuote from: Berati on May 20, 2014, 06:29:15 PMAs to his line of reasoning... I agree with you and yet Casparov cannot see it himself...Do you really believe that?
Quote from: Berati on May 21, 2014, 07:27:11 PMYes, I do believe that. It's easy for us to think that people like Casparov are insincere in their beliefs and in what they say to us because it is so patently false. However, from his point of view, we are the ones who are refusing to see the light and he gets as angry at us as we get at him. I think it stems from the fact that we are not thinking creatures that can also feel, we are feeling creatures that can also think. Rational thinking is a learned behavior with rules , but there has to be a desire to learn it. I believe that for most of us atheists, pragmatists & skeptics, we are born with the desire to attempt to be rational, it's not a choice we make, it's just how we are. For the believers, there is no such desire. While they can intellectually understand the concept, they lack the desire to follow it to its conclusions and base their beliefs off that. Instead they treat rationality and logic like weapons that are used to defeat your foes no matter what your beliefs are.
QuoteI believe that for most of us atheists, pragmatists & skeptics, we are born with the desire to attempt to be rational, it's not a choice we make, it's just how we are.
Quote from: stromboli on May 21, 2014, 07:37:51 PMDon't know about that. But I couldn't give you a good counter argument.
Quote from: Berati on May 22, 2014, 12:25:56 AMhow often does free will come up?
Quote from: Berati on May 19, 2014, 05:45:59 PMThis is my response to your question Casparov.You are not begging me, you simply refuse to answer me. You have failed to address anything I have said so far and just pretend it was never said. You want me to repeat myself, so here it goesâ€¦ step by step. And keep in mind all of this has been presented to you before. I'll only deal with one step at a time.
Quote1) I think therefore I am = I think therefore thought is all that there is. (and thought = God)This is an assumption. If you agree this is an assumption then you now have to allow that materialism is at least as a possible as immaterialism.Agree or disagree?
Quote from: Casparov on May 23, 2014, 12:33:41 AMOh sweet! This could be interesting I suppose. I'm game!DISAGREE!I refute that "I think therefore I am = I think therefore thought is all that there is." I've never said this and this is not my argument. Better is that I cannot doubt the fact that I am conscious, therefore I know with absolute certainty that consciousness exists. I do not need to assume that consciousness exists, because I literally cannot doubt it. Something must first be doubtable in order to be assumed.I am not arguing that just because I know with absolute certainty that consciousness exists that therefore "consciousness is all there is". If I did so, yes this would be an assumption, but it is not my argument. You have presented a straw-man at step one.The "I think therefore I am" only logically leads me to the conclusion that consciousness definitely exists, but it can take me no further than that.
Quote from: Berati on May 23, 2014, 08:01:01 AMRead it again. I asked you if you thought it was an assumption. Therefore you agree.Which means that materialsm is therefore at least as likely as immaterialism.Correct?
Quote from: Berati on May 22, 2014, 12:25:56 AMI would think many here don't believe in free will... except when it comes to our choice to be rational. BTW stromboli, you've been here awhile, how often does free will come up?
Quote from: Casparov on May 23, 2014, 03:30:59 PMThere is no assumption required to know that consciousness exists. However, to claim that the only thing that exists is consciousness would indeed be an assumption. You seem to have relabeled Idealism as Immaterialism, which is fine. Materialism and Immaterialism are indeed both assumptions
Quotethis does not however mean that they are equally as likely. If one assumption explains the data more accurately than an another assumption, then it is a more likely assumption than the other one.
QuoteI am absolutely certain that consciousness and experience exist, these are two immaterial things. I am not certain that any objective material objects actually exist, therefore at the very beginning of consideration, immaterialism is more likely than materialism.
QuoteI am certain that consciousness exists before any assumptions are even considered, assuming Materialism posits something extra without justification whereas assuming immaterialism merely extrapolates the knowledge I already have.Just because they are both assumptions does not mean that they are equally as likely. So I disagree. You are incorrect.
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2014, 07:02:06 PMAbout every other month, maybe more often than that.