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TWO HOURS?!?!?!

Started by Nam, July 24, 2014, 01:11:20 AM

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Johan

#60
Quote from: doorknob on July 27, 2014, 12:03:25 AM
And I do find it conflicting that the same people who are against the death penalty are for abortion. Just wanted to point that out.

This is an easy one to tackle without derailing the thread at all. First of all it should be clarified that not ALL of the same people who are against the death penalty are for abortion. One does not automatically equal the other. But the point is still valid because there are indeed plenty of individuals who are against the death penalty but are also for abortion. Are they just being hypocritical assholes?  You can't answer that without understanding why they're  for and against each thing. But it is easy to imagine that one can have separate opinions on each topic which makes them for one (abortion) while being against the other (death penalty) without making themselves into irrational hypocritical assholes. And it should probably also be noted that in fact some of them very well may simply be hypocritical assholes.

That being said, the thing you need to understand in order for this to make sense is that lots of people don't consider an unborn fetus to be a baby. A future baby? A potential baby? Sure. But not a baby. Especially in the early stages of pregnancy when most abortions are performed. You can disagree with that if you like but you cannot get around the fact that there are people who hold that opinion.

Once we've established that, the rest is pretty simple. History has proven that criminals who are left alive can sometimes find their way out of prison, either by escape or by being released for various reasons, and will then commit crimes again. I'm not saying this in any way justifies the death penalty. But I think it stands to reason that some individuals probably form their pro death penalty opinion based at least loosely on the previous statement. IOW, convicted murders stand at least some chance of being able to harm innocent people again and putting them to death effectively stops that. Obviously there lots valid counter arguments to that opinion but the fact remains that there are people who hold that opinion.

Likewise history has also proven that when abortion becomes illegal, abortions do not stop happening and those women who choose to get an abortion then run a significantly higher risk of being injured or killed while having said abortion performed underground by unskilled individuals. Again lots of valid arguments against abortion also exist but the fact remains that this is a valid reason for people to feel the way they do on the topic.

So when you put two and two together you can see that it isn't much of a stretch for someone to feel that being pro death protects innocent living people (not fetus' but actual people) from harm and that being pro abortion also protects actual grown people (not fetus' but actual people) from harm. Easy peasy one two three.

Also please note that nowhere in this post have I given any indication of my own opinion on each subject. Please keep that in mind before you call me out for being wrong because something I've said above goes against the way you happen to feel.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

aitm

Quote from: Nam on August 02, 2014, 11:36:45 PM
Yes, because only killers are under your bed, outside your window, and behind trees.

-Nam
I am pretty sure normal people aren't under my bed, outside my window or behind the trees.....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Nam

Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2014, 01:32:30 PM
I am pretty sure normal people aren't under my bed, outside my window or behind the trees.....

Are killers the only bogey men out there?

What about thieves, rapists, stalkers, pedophiles, drug dealers, etc.,

Do they not exist?

:wink:

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

aitm

Quote from: Nam on August 03, 2014, 01:40:25 PM
Are killers the only bogey men out there?

What about thieves, rapists, stalkers, pedophiles, drug dealers, etc.,

Do they not exist?


:wink:

-Nam

an eye fer an eye....aye..
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Nam

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. - Ghandi.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

aitm

A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2014, 01:52:08 PM
Ghandi was wrong.
Yeah, it's mostly just the Middle East.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Nam

#67
Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2014, 01:52:08 PM
Ghandi was wrong.

You're wrong.

Good can not combatant bad, it can only contain it. It can not destroy it.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Nam on August 03, 2014, 02:34:25 PM
You're wrong.

Good can not combatant bad, it can only contain it. It cannot destroy it.

-Nam
Define good and bad?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Nam

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 03, 2014, 02:39:19 PM
Define good and bad?

Good: in accordance with the general, and overall morality of any given society based upon the ethical standpoint of right versus wrong.

Bad: Not good by any degree that conflicts with the general definition and/or morality of a society based on the ethical stand point of right versus wrong.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

pioteir

Quote from: Solitary on August 02, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
  "a simple matter of survival of the society." You got that part right.  I agree that offing a killer is more expensive is BS. But how many were later found innocent, and found guilty because of bigotry and prejudice? Would an humane society do that? Solitary

I agree enntirely about the innocent people getting convicted. That's why I mentioned some situations where it's certain, 10000% sure the guy did it (if it's even possible).


Nam You didn't get anything I meant/wrote in my post. Not sure if I should explain it to You again like talking to a 4 year old.


Shiranu when did I ever talk about firemen or highways in Idaho? Also I do have internet, electricity and bunch of other stuff so I'm not sure if the dark ages suit me that much.

I'm sorry (not really) that an idea to kill the killers seems uncomfortable, uncivilized even, to some of You. After being called an uncivilised barbarian the next thing I'm waiting for is a mob, angry if possible, armed with pitchforks and torches chanting prayers outside my window... well... maybe prayers are a bit too much for atheists...


Quote from: Nam on August 03, 2014, 01:44:07 PM
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. - Ghandi.

-Nam

Don't Believe Everything That You Read on The Internet. - Abraham Lincoln
Theology is unnecessary. - Stephen Hawking

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Nam on August 03, 2014, 02:56:21 PM
Good: in accordance with the general, and overall morality of any given society based upon the ethical standpoint of right versus wrong.

Bad: Not good by any degree that conflicts with the general definition and/or morality of a society based on the ethical stand point of right versus wrong.

-Nam
So, definition specific to one society. What if they're not the same in another society?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

aitm

Quote from: Nam on August 03, 2014, 02:34:25 PM
You're wrong.

Good can not combatant bad, it can only contain it. It can not destroy it.

-Nam

I disagree, good can destroy bad. Killing a human who has no sympathy to other humans is not the same as murdering someone who does have sympathy towards others. Killing to protect the innocent is not only morally acceptable but demandable.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

pioteir

Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2014, 03:33:58 PM
I disagree, good can destroy bad. Killing a human who has no sympathy to other humans is not the same as murdering someone who does have sympathy towards others. Killing to protect the innocent is not only morally acceptable but demandable.

Spot on! ... unless You assume the killer has rights. Good to know there are some level-headed people out there.

The way I see it political correctness and tolerance toward the intolerant are 2 major steps toward anihilation of the so-called civilized society. Grow some balls and fight back goddamit!!!
Theology is unnecessary. - Stephen Hawking

Nam

Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2014, 03:33:58 PM
I disagree, good can destroy bad. Killing a human who has no sympathy to other humans is not the same as murdering someone who does have sympathy towards others. Killing to protect the innocent is not only morally acceptable but demandable.

If society, as a whole, determines that killing is wrong then it must apply to all killing not just what pertains to one's point-of-view.

Therefore, if the society, as a whole, kills the killer then they are the killer as well, and therefore no longer "good" but "bad" as defined by their general ethical standpoint.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!