Anything outside of time and space don't exist.

[Baruch]

Hakurei ... very good analysis of non-temporal theology.  This is a good reason to discard all theology ;-)  In pantheism, G-d can be completely natural and temporal, because the universe is alive, not just the Earth.  The conscious aspect of G-d is precisely the conscious aspect of nature for example.  I am willing to hedge my bets with panentheism ... or pantheism plus.

[Cocoa Beware]

So the Many Worlds Interpetation or parallel universe theory is all shot to hell according to you? So we can just flush any theory involving quantum mechanics down the toilet?

Im confused, whats the argument here?

Arent any potential alternate dimensions supposed to be every bit as real as this one? I had always assumed they also had space-time and it would be practical to consider them as part of existence.

Never a big fan of alternate dimensions personally, I just dont like the idea that you have to rely on assuming they exist.

[peacewithoutgod]

So the Many Worlds Interpetation or parallel universe theory is all shot to hell according to you? So we can just flush any theory involving quantum mechanics down the toilet?

Much of this universe or multiverse remains unknown, yaddaya. Unknowns count for nothing regarding supernatural beings, only that science is being practiced properly by some, and that scientists still have much to study and learn as technology and new information so enable them. I don't know for sure that we don't all exist in an intergalactic fish bowl, but I'm not going to presume that just because it may be true. Scientifically ethical atheists do not rule out any possibility, not even that your belief in god may be true, despite their understanding through applied scientific principles that the likelihood of anyone's claim to a deity is too unlikely to be taken seriously. If a god exists, it has not actually spoken to our generation unless it has 10,000 conflicting messages for every dope-inspired cult leader. You could spend the rest of your life running whatever data people present as "evidence" for their alleged gods through all the permutations, and still all you could rationally conclude is that there are no gods to worry about, but their prophets are a true menace!

[Baruch]

Every god is only a demigod, and every being is a demigod.  Just because the hyperbolic definition of deity by Abrahamic religions is ... absurd, doesn't mean that the Greco-Roman pagans are wrong ... they were only guilty of classism ... the idea that only the Emperor is a deity.  One of the counterarguments against Jesus is that he wasn't godlike, because he wasn't rich, powerful and famous like the Emperor.  The problem isn't the idea of divinity, but that for most people they create a straw man either to worship or to knock down, and ignore the obvious.  Reality is teaming with demigods, even if you don't look like Hercules or Sorbo in the shower ;-)

In the Pyramid Texts in the pyramid of Pharaoh Unas (2300 BCE), the first extended writing to survive ... the Pharaoh acquires immortality by eating the gods he worships.  This is very much like New Guinea ... and like Christianity.  Of course in Native American terms, we do eat gods to sustain life, members of the Chicken tribe and the Bovine tribe.  Inter-Species cannibalism (as per the vision of St Peter at the house of the Gentile in Caesarea).  Big fish gods eat little fish gods ... the circle of life ;-))

[CrucifyCindy]

Much of this universe or multiverse remains unknown, yaddaya. Unknowns count for nothing regarding supernatural beings, only that science is being practiced properly by some, and that scientists still have much to study and learn as technology and new information so enable them. I don't know for sure that we don't all exist in an intergalactic fish bowl, but I'm not going to presume that just because it may be true. Scientifically ethical atheists do not rule out any possibility, not even that your belief in god may be true, despite their understanding through applied scientific principles that the likelihood of anyone's claim to a deity is too unlikely to be taken seriously

What I am getting is that some are implying that our fish bowl is the only fish bowl around and that nothing exists outside of our fish bowl. It's is very presumptuous in my opinion to think that we are the only fish bowl.

[peacewithoutgod]

What I am getting is that some are implying that our fish bowl is the only fish bowl around and that nothing exists outside of our fish bowl. It's is very presumptuous in my opinion to think that we are the only fish bowl.

That we really are in the fish bowl of an entity so powerful that it can (but by all scientific observations does not) control our entire planet or even our entire universe cannot be ruled out, nevertheless this is doubtful at best. When you've looked at the evidence for vs. all that says nay, there's nothing presumptuous when you reach the most logical conclusion. Logic is never presumptuous! It's unlikely that we are in a fish bowl at all, but on the idea that other universes exist, this is a scientific consideration which may be true. There may even be superior beings which rule other universes, and the planets within them (if there are any), but in that case they probably rule according to principles which can be observed scientifically by anyone who can observe them (we cannot from within our own). The rules which govern physical forces there may even be different from those which govern our own, but even if so ithere's nothing in any such musings to suggest anything supernatural anywhere. Whatever the truth may be outside of our field of observation, 1. we have no data on it, 2. we can't obtain any for now, and to waste what time we have speculating on anything for which 1. and 2. are true is wasteful.

[aitm]

It's is very presumptuous in my opinion to think that we are the only fish bowl.

It is far more presumptuous and even arrogant to think that the speck we live on, merely a grain of sand to our solar system which is a grain of sand to the universe would have a god that admits it can't defeat an army with iron wheels on their chariots…now thats some funny shit there!

[Baruch]

Iron used to be magical ... until after the Bronze Age.  Pharaoh Tutankamun had a iron knife right next to his gold one.  It was made from meteoritic iron, the only source of iron known at that time.  "Iron" and "irenic" have the same word origin, which implies divinity.  The Stone Age probably felt the same way before the invention of smelted bronze.  Sufficiently advanced technology is usually mistaken for magic ... and still should be ;-)

[RadThadd]

here's my favorite mind-numbing, circular-logic argument ever posed by a PhD:

________________________________________________________________________________________

1) Every existing thing has an explanation of its existence (either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause).

2) If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

3) The universe is an existing thing.

4) Therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

For 50 points, name the fumb-duck who actually said this!

Ken Ham
+50 for me.

[RadThadd]

Iron used to be magical ... until after the Bronze Age.  Pharaoh Tutankamun had a iron knife right next to his gold one.  It was made from meteoritic iron, the only source of iron known at that time.  "Iron" and "irenic" have the same word origin, which implies divinity.  The Stone Age probably felt the same way before the invention of smelted bronze.  Sufficiently advanced technology is usually mistaken for magic ... and still should be ;-)

*Mod*- I don't know what you're trying to say, but you're doing a lousy job of it, try better-aitm

[Baruch]

Magic is quite real ... but is misunderstood, especially by those under the spell of used car salesmen ;-)

[RadThadd]

Magic is quite real ... but is misunderstood, especially by those under the spell of used car salesmen ;-)

Snip-aitm

[dtq123]

Are you serious? You're an idiot troll with no mind. If you were a free thinker, you sure as hell proved to me that YOU HAVE FREELY CHOSEN TO BE A VERY IGNORANT, CHILDISH KEN HAM WANNABE. free thinker my ass.

you pathetic child. You must have been slurping ken Ham's cock? You obviously still got some magic pubes in tour teeth. That's why you can't get the word "magic" out your mouth.

Magic: Noun

The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Meteorites can just be as magical as gods if you lack an understanding

[surreptitious57]

Cindy : space is expanding in all directions beyond light speed. This is not a violation of general relativity for it is
happening to the Universe itself not to some phenomena within it. One of the consequences of this is that not all
space is observable. Now information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. So if the Universe is expanding
beyond it then all of space within that region will remain unobservable for ever assuming the speed is a constant
There will eventually come a point when from the frame of reference here upon Earth that no stars will be visible
because of this expansion. Although by then Earth shall have been atomised by the Sun after that goes red giant
so just saying. And so you are absolutely correct to assume that not everything in space is observable from Earth
as it is not. However you would be committing a major non sequitur if you then conveniently invoked God Of The
Gaps. That is because the Universe both observable and non observable has to obey laws of physics regardless of
anything else. Since it is absolutely physical in composition and all things physical have specific relationships with
other things physical. And so because God is metaphysical or non physical by definition then it logically follows he
cannot interact with physical matter and therefore does not exist. In order for him to he would have to be physical

[SGOS]

here's my favorite mind-numbing, circular-logic argument ever posed by a PhD:

________________________________________________________________________________________

1) Every existing thing has an explanation of its existence (either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause).

2) If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

3) The universe is an existing thing.

4) Therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

For 50 points, name the fumb-duck who actually said this!   

A long time ago in a philosophy class, I remember reading something that sounded like that.  Now the words may have said something different, but they have a familiar feel.  I'll go with one of the classic philosophers, who were often brilliant, but with occasional flashes of "dumb fuck."  Hell, I'll even throw out the first name that comes to mind:  Rene Descartes?