Anti-Vaxers - They are everywhere!

[Fickle]

Here's how the internet works, you google --"47% of scientists falsified data" and we get 8,900,000 hits. Like this--
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2685008/
or this
http://www.nature.com/news/us-vaccine-researcher-sentenced-to-prison-for-fraud-1.17660
or this
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/november/fraud-science-papers-111615.html

Most are from credible sources who state categorically that a large number of supposed professionals are in fact dishonest and disingenuous. Psychologically I think this relates to the notion of education/entitlement and many of these people have become so psychotic they most likely don't even think they are doing anything wrong.

Here's the catch...
We can presume most all the incompetent/dishonest doctors and scientists would plead innocent in court. What does this tell us of their credibility, What does this tell us of their true honesty and accountability?. Now if they actually had any credibility  one would think these people, as supposedly responsible adults, would be compelled to state the truth...so why don't they?. You see I can't tell these professionals apart from any other asshole because psychologically they are no different than any plain old uneducated asshole. I mean they can pretend to be much more than they are however in reality we are judged solely on "WHAT WE DO".

Apparently everyone is innocent, apparently none have ever made a mistake or done anything wrong in their entire life and pigs can fucking fly. Obviously if their wasn't something wrong then I wouldn't be getting almost 9,000,000 hits would I ?.

[Baruch]

You won't be seeing any peer-reviewed article .. just investigative journalism.  The guilty aren't going to out themselves .. but then it turns into a Twin Peaks episode.

If the fact that 10s of thousands of people die prematurely due to well intentioned intervention mistakes in hospitals, something President Clinton admitted ... then you can't admit to anything.  This is a grey area of ethics ... it isn't malignancy, nor negligence, but good people not being perfect.

[Mermaid]

Apparently everyone is innocent, apparently none have ever made a mistake or done anything wrong in their entire life and pigs can fucking fly. Obviously if their wasn't something wrong then I wouldn't be getting almost 9,000,000 hits would I ?.

Uh. Nobody said any of that.

[drunkenshoe]

She just said she is aware of at least two scientists who manipulated data in the previous page.

[Hakurei Reimu]

But we have experienced an upswing in cancers.  Note, I am not saying all cancer increase is sv40. 

No, we're not. It's the same bullshit that anti-vaxers use to justify the autism-vaccine link â€" we're getting better at diagnosing cancers.

If the virus was introduced to humans via the immunization program, that program would remain ground Zero for that introduction. 

Speculation. You don't even know if it is a ground zero at all.

hmm...  sv 40 causes some types of cancers in rodents when introduced in high volume.  SV 40 markers are found in human cancers of the same type the rodents get under that high volume.

Yes it does mean something is going on.

No it doesn't. You find water and protein in all cancer cells, too. Does that mean that water or protein is carcinogenic? Of course not. Water and proteins are part of cancer cells because they're part of all cells.

You have one half of a correlation. It doesn't mean anything until you find an absence of sv40 in noncancerous cells. Even then, you have a mere correlation.

Because biology is messy.

[chill98]

No it doesn't. You find water and protein in all cancer cells, too. Does that mean that water or protein is carcinogenic? Of course not. Water and proteins are part of cancer cells because they're part of all cells.

Because biology is messy.

This part is all I need to realize your bias. 

When testing to see if something is a problem for people we often inject non-typical exposures to a questionable substance and watch for the reaction.  If no reaction the substance is declared harmless.

Injecting sv40 into various test animal species produces cancers; the same kinds of cancer found in humans and (roughly) half harboring sv40.

For any other substance, the correlation would be recognized.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/IASLC/53476

Biology is messy.  So are human rights vs making a profit from those humans.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-22

Denmark, not a nation of hysteric's.  Subtitled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2i-r39hok

Arguing by labeling someone anti-vax (when they are not) or comparing water to simian viri makes you look immature.

[Baruch]

One can believe everything a medical researcher tells you, everything a doctor tells you, think everything a doctor does to you will work ... but I would think one is a bit gullible, having replaced the Easter Bunny with people in white lab coats.  I go to doctors and dentists ... but I also work with them.  Most people aren't competent to brush their teeth in the morning, and I remain unconvinced the apes can fully figure out nature or even human biology/psychology.  We do what we can do, and hope for the best.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

For any other substance, the correlation would be recognized.

Correlation is not causation.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but when you're presenting evidence it's best to present something that doesn't have more holes in it than swiss cheese.

[Baruch]

Well in a court of law, circumstantial evidence is often sufficient to convict.  So shall we just shut down the courts?  Courts don't follow lab rules ... though they can rely on SME who are from labs.

Other than a row of dominoes ... I rarely see completely convincing cause/effect.  There are too many hidden feedback loops.

[Fickle]

Chill98

I found that documentary from Denmark disturbing. Even more disturbing is the trend where supposed professionals try to distance themselves from the problem. Were in agreement with others, this cannot be happening, those people are just making this up. Yet the problem does exist and they don't have a god damn clue why or what to do about it.

The issue here is liability and if they admit the problem is real then they have a responsibility to do something about it. Thus instead of doing the right thing like a responsible adult should they act like a 5 year old playing the "let's pretend it doesn't exist" game. I see many supposed adults playing this pretend game all the time and it never ceases to amaze me.

Credentials do not matter, what we say does not matter...What we do matters.

Now if all those professionals kids had the same vaccinations and severe symptoms then of course that would be a different story altogether. They wouldn't be sitting their with that smug fucking look on their face lying through their teeth would they?. Thus we come to the ultimate truth concerning the human condition. It's not a real problem so long as it happens to someone else and does not effect us personally. Such is life.

[Baruch]

Fickle ... you probably didn't read my earlier posts on medicine.  However well intentioned, medicine is of two kinds ... placebo or poison.  Doctors are legally immune from malpractice as long as the administer the placebos or poisons the approved way ... otherwise under common law of (do no fraud and do no harm) medicine would be illegal.  Some placebos work on impressionable patients.  Also some poisons are better for you than the illness.  Unfortunately some individuals have worse reactions than others ... it would be nice to screen them first, to avoid inappropriate medications for those individuals, but that costs money.

[Hydra009]

However well intentioned, medicine is of two kinds ... placebo or poison.

This is so wrong that I'm mildly surprised that it didn't include advice on how to balance humors.  Substances used to treat disease are not necessarily "poison" or placebo.  They're just substances used to produce a desired effect.  In large enough doses, almost anything can be dangerous.  Placebos are by definition are medically ineffective.  So no, your doc is not "poisoning" you.

[Baruch]

This is so wrong that I'm mildly surprised that it didn't include advice on how to balance humors.  Substances used to treat disease are not necessarily "poison" or placebo.  They're just substances used to produce a desired effect.  In large enough doses, almost anything can be dangerous.  Placebos are by definition are medically ineffective.  So no, your doc is not "poisoning" you.

Calling AMA ... your patient has escaped again ;-)  What are those side effects again (which often include death)?  Any common law jury, back to Hammurabi, would find the doctor guilty of malpractice ... and if death results, the doctor is executed.  Not that I would want to do that.  There was that dentist who was trying to give all his patients AIDS ... I might make an exception for him.  Doctors are human, not gods ... why do I have to tell an atheist that?

Arsenic is a substance (once used to treat syphilis) ... if you give it to someone without a license, you are a killer.  If you are a doctor (and you follow approved protocol) then you are a physician.  This is a legal distinction, not a medical one.  Yes, too much water can kill you ... but you say it is a poison?  May the henbane be upon you <sarc>

[Hydra009]

Doctors are human, not gods ... why do I have to tell an atheist that?

I'd point out what's wrong with your post, but the universe might not be around that long.  And would it matter anyway?  Apparently, me saying that medicine isn't poison is equivalent to saying that doctors are gods.  How do you argue with something like that?  How do you argue with someone like that?

Straightening out this level of irrational thinking is way beyond my ability.  Peace out.

[chill98]

Chill98

I found that documentary from Denmark disturbing. Even more disturbing is the trend where supposed professionals try to distance themselves from the problem. Were in agreement with others, this cannot be happening, those people are just making this up. Yet the problem does exist and they don't have a god damn clue why or what to do about it...

Now if all those professionals kids had the same vaccinations and severe symptoms then of course that would be a different story altogether.

The video I posted in message #68 has two doctors (married) who's child suffers from what they believe is a reaction to Gardasil.  The Gardasil controversy is especially intriguing because we are dealing with
1) children old enough to have a medical history AND
2) able to speak legitimately about what they are feeling and where their problems begin.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/serious-questions-about-hpv-vaccine-07-07-2008/

That video [edit:  post #68 ]  also talks a bit about the human immune system and its development, with vaccines skipping a step in that immune system process (respiratory/digestive disease introduction) and creating a physical hole (my words) in the immune system recognition process.  They link that to allergy problems- holes in the bodies first response system so to speak.

Guinea pigs...