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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/wetherspoons-customer-disgusted-by-offensive-anti-muslim-poster-pub-1516639

QuoteA customer at a local Wetherspoon's pub was horrified to find an anti-Muslim poster displayed on the notice board telling Muslims to "get the f*** out of our countries." The offensive A4 sized poster featured an image of Lord Kitchener, synonymous with the British Army recruitment poster from the First World War. It claims to be the work of The Infidel Brotherhood.

It read: "MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!

A regular patron to The Moon on the Square in Feltham, Middlesex, who asked to remain anonymous, visited the pub on August 20 at 1pm and immediately noticed the racist poster. He said he was "disgusted".

The 28-year-old said: "I was absolutely disturbed to see this vile poster on display in my local pub, let alone in the biggest pub chain in the UK. I only popped in for lunch which a friend from work who happened to be a Muslim, but we were so upset by it we were forced to leave.

"Just as we sat down inside the pub, I noticed the sign a few tables away from us. My friend, who is a Muslim, didn't say anything but I could see he was highly uncomfortable. We only had thirty minutes for lunch, but were both so angry that we got up and left before having our sandwiches," he explained.

"It is disgraceful that J.D. Wetherspoon pubs are allowing this anti-Muslim propaganda to be displayed - I'd hate for any Muslim to think all British people are racists because of this." The customer added: 'I'll never go back to one of their pubs ever again. They should have employees making sure racist propaganda like this will not be tolerated in this country.'

According the Mail Online a spokesperson for the pub chain apologised for the poster, claiming that its was displayed without the knowledge of staff and was quickly removed. In a statement they said: "A poster was displayed on the notice board at The Moon on the Square, by a customer at the pub, without the knowledge of the pub staff. As soon as this came to light, staff immediately removed the discriminatory material.

"The customer notice board, which is regularly checked and monitored by staff, has now been completely cleared of all material, whatever the content. The Moon on the Square is a community pub, proud of its diverse customer base, and has always been fully committed to operating in a non-discriminatory way."

Many innocent Muslims have reported being the target of reprisals in the wake of terrorist attacks by militant group Islamic State. Several Muslim religious sites were attacked across France after the murderous siege of the Paris offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. This week, 81-year-old Muslim grandfather Mushin Ahmed died after being savagely beaten on his way to pray at a mosque.

(http://conservativetribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/PAYPoster-1.jpg)

This has had some mixed reaction to it.

On the one hand, It could be percieved as racist against all Muslims as the heading would make it seem like its against them.

On the other hand, I would argue that maybe this was more aimed as extremists in the uk, who can't just be moderate in the uk, they have to bring over Sharia law to the uk and bring the violent ways taught in places like syria and iran with them. Those unwilling to adapt to living in a moderate society, then yes, in those cases I agree with the sign.

Some see all moderates as extremists, others say no moderates exist.

Some people go to different nations to find a new life, others try to make the new nation into a new version of the old and make its culture into theirs, who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant, it is the way of things.

I'm an atheist, I hate all religions, and I hate people who try to subvert the culture of one nation and make it into a religious one to be abhorrent, whether they are foreign or domestic. This could be taken many ways, flat out racism, islamophobia, xenophobia, or camel back breaking against the muslims in the UK, some of who actively try to make it into an Islamic state.

Fuck that

A smart government would invite all desirable immigrants in,  but carefully vett each one.  They need a sponsor already able to support them, and proof that they are desirable.  This takes care of some family reunion problems, and avoids letting in the riffraff.

If the language was "cleaned up" would you object then? The message itself I have no problem with, I actually have no problem with the language either as it is specifically directed at those who would want sharia law and in that case, fuck them.

Well the sign is not saying "NO MUSLIMS, NO DOGS, NO IRISH", it is basically a political message not a discriminatory one. Whoever posted it is not saying you are not welcome in the pub or country but rather informing those who do not like living in a pluralistic society to leave it if they do not like it. Which is a message i would love to give to Fundie Christians in my own country.

I just think this kind of thing is, or at least should just be aimed at fuckers like Anjem Choudary

Yeah count me among those who doesn't really understand why this is so offensive. I mean yeah, its written by an idiot who is drawing a few conclusions/making some assumptions from ignorance and that would probably make me embarrassed for my fellow countrymen. But offended?

If I got offended every time a fellow American proudly displayed how ignorant they are, I'd spend every waking moment being offended.

What I notice, it was inside a pub, how many devout or extreme muslims are going to see it there?
So whoever put it up and it would not have been Wetherspoon's  did not see the target audience for the poster as being islamic.
I think it is a pretty fair guess it is designed so that drinkers in the pub see it and think that is fair enough and it drives a little more of a wedge between them and the muslim outside the pub.

My personal view is that the way immigration is happening at the moment in Europe is going to produce great problems, and I don't see anyone with answers. It would be nice to think we could all overcome our cultural differences, but in practice what I see around me in London are lots of these little wedges happening all over the place, and very few people willing to confront them.

Quote from: Johan on August 25, 2015, 08:32:08 PM
Yeah count me among those who doesn't really understand why this is so offensive. I mean yeah, its written by an idiot who is drawing a few conclusions/making some assumptions from ignorance and that would probably make me embarrassed for my fellow countrymen. But offended?

If I got offended every time a fellow American proudly displayed how ignorant they are, I'd spend every waking moment being offended.

I find that just plain offensive!!  Well, actually, I agree with your point and aitm's.  Clean up the language and I have no problem with the content. 

If people were saying this about people of my culture ( and less than 40 years or so they did say the exact same shit)... Yeah, I would be offended. So I don't see any reason to not be offended by the exact same thing, just targeted at someone else.

Fuck xenophobia.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 25, 2015, 09:32:54 PM
If people were saying this about people of my culture ( and less than 40 years or so they did say the exact same shit)... Yeah, I would be offended. So I don't see any reason to not be offended by the exact same thing, just targeted at someone else.

Fuck xenophobia.

well, we're YOUR people offended by the new country?
were they offended by the new culture?
did they ask for or demand the host country accept "your" laws?
If so, then yeah, they should be told to fuck off as well, but obviously in a nicer way.
The point is quite obvious and rather telling, when you move into someone else house, don't demand they change for you.

I was so upset reading this thread I couldn't eat my sandwich!

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 25, 2015, 10:09:52 PM
I was so upset reading this thread I couldn't eat my sandwich!

Don't you mean that you were forced to not eat your sandwich?  :P

Quote from: aitm on August 25, 2015, 09:52:20 PM
well, we're YOUR people offended by the new country?
were they offended by the new culture?
did they ask for or demand the host country accept "your" laws?
If so, then yeah, they should be told to fuck off as well, but obviously in a nicer way.
The point is quite obvious and rather telling, when you move into someone else house, don't demand they change for you.

According to xenophobes like someone who would found the "Infidels against Islam"? Yeah, he would probably say the same thing if he grew up in that time. There were very small sections of my culture that refused to follow the law, that didn't follow the same religion, that were offended by the new culture. But that small section did not represent all of us, just as it doesn't represent Muslims... and just as it is with Muslims, the rest of us condemned them for it... all the while being told that we were criminals and should go back to our "shitholes" as we got exploited and prejudiced against.

"My people" had entire sections of major cities (now we call it "Little Italy") where people only interacted with those of the same community, who refused to speak English, and practiced a different religion than everyone else. We had our "own laws" (many Italian immigrants were proponents of socialism and communism thanks to the terrible working conditions they endured at capitalists who exploited them left and right) and wanted to "change American forever, for the worse!"... the whole "Red Scare", that lead to people like Sacco and Vanzetti to have bullshit trials and executed for, basically, being Italian in America.

We had "radicals", mafiosi, who wanted to completely subvert the law and enforce their own through extortion and murder. We were portrayed as ultra-violent (terrorists). More than 2/3rds of film portrayed us as criminals and mobsters (how many movies portray the Muslim as a good, or even neutral, character?). There was the Immigration Act of 1924, which basically was, "OMG THESE FOREIGNERS, NOT POINTING FINGERS (*WHISPER* ITS THE ITALIANS! *WHISPER*) ARE DESTROYING OUR WAY OF LIFE! WE HAVE TO CLOSE THE BORDDDDERS!!!".

So yes... that was the popular opinion of my people, that we wanted to destroy your culture and way of life and change your political systems and we were violent terrorists (er, gangsters) and so on. And to a lesser extent my German ancestors and to a similar extent my Irish ancestors had to deal with the exact same bullshit. And yet it was a super small percentage, just like the percentage of Muslims in the U.S. or U.K. who could give half a fuck about breaking the law or "converting you to Sharia". It's a bullshit boogieman, and the fact that we haven't learned from it is really depressing.

But it's whatever I suppose to allow this bullshit, it's just innocent Italians being lynched across the South, or Muslims being attacked on subways and having their Mosques vandalized and shot at. What's the big deal, let it slide... it's not like he is intentionally trying to spark the fire with his rhetoric! He only means the bad ones, and EVERYONE knows that, right?

Edit: Oh my god, I almost forgot to post these gems...

Quote1. Few of their children in the country learn English ... The signs in our streets have inscriptions in both languages ... Unless the stream of their importation could be turned they will soon so outnumber us that all the advantages we have will not be able to preserve our language, and even our government will become precarious.

-Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father, on German immigration to Pennsylvania, 1750s

7. Not a day passes but families are ruthlessly turned out to make room for foreign invaders. The rates are burdened with the education of thousands of foreign children.

- William Evans Gordon, British nativist, 1905

8. The people of this country are too tolerant. There’s no other country in the world where they’d allow it... After all we built up this country and then we allow a lot of foreigners, the scum of Europe, the offscourings of Polish ghettos to come and run it for us.

â€" John Dos Passos, early 20th century novelist, on U.S. immigration policy

10. Now, what do we find in all our large cities? Entire sections containing a population incapable of understanding our institutions, with no comprehension of our national ideals, and for the most part incapable of speaking the English language. Foreign language information service gives evidence that many southern Europeans resent as an unjust discrimination the quota laws and represent America as showing race hatred and unmindful of its mission to the world. The reverse is true. America’s first duty is to those already within her own shores.

- Representative Grant Hudson, 1924

Same shit, different day. The world is coming to an end, the immigrants are going to destroy our way of life!

QuoteIt read: "MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!

This assumes that the reader is a Muslim who prefers sharia law to secular law.  Somewhat presumptuous.  And (although this might be more of a US problem than a UK problem) it's more than just muslims who favor theocratic rule.  I'd rather go with a general statement that theocrats should gtfo than target a specific group.

Quote from: aitm on August 25, 2015, 07:08:39 PM
If the language was "cleaned up" would you object then? The message itself I have no problem with, I actually have no problem with the language either as it is specifically directed at those who would want sharia law and in that case, fuck them.

I agree with this. Some Muslims may argue and say, "Sharia isn't cutting off hands, etc.", but to me that's clearly what Sharia was to Muhammad, so I have no problem with basically saying "Fuck off with your Sharia" on a sign.

Quote from: Munch on August 25, 2015, 08:04:31 PM
I just think this kind of thing is, or at least should just be aimed at fuckers like Anjem Choudary

I highly doubt Choudary is a real person. There's a reason this is the guy that gets to have media appearance after media appearance. It's Choudary's job to go on the news and say exactly what the government wants the people to hear.  Instead of having someone on to rationally explain why the Muslim world is so anti British (all the Muslims killed by the British in war), they put Anjem on where he's making jokes, doing a mic check and going "check 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 9, 11!" and then Anjem goes on promising the IS will raise their flag above the White House, rather than intelligently criticizing Britain's foreign policy. It's a complete joke and I'm surprised so many here eat it up.

Quote from: aitm on August 25, 2015, 09:52:20 PM
well, we're YOUR people offended by the new country?
were they offended by the new culture?
did they ask for or demand the host country accept "your" laws?
If so, then yeah, they should be told to fuck off as well, but obviously in a nicer way.
The point is quite obvious and rather telling, when you move into someone else house, don't demand they change for you.

That culturally is an American point of view, and is also shared by many indigenous British people, but it is not the view of the British ruling class.

Which is why on immigration America had the 'melting pot' where immigrants were expected to become culturally American, but with British rule generally as long as you paid your taxes gave the powers that be due deference they did not give a flying fuck what you thought or even who you were or are.

Oh wow, how stupid is that? This is exactly the same thing with "NO JEWS" - "NO COLOUR" written on to the windows of shops in the past.

There are 2,5 million muslims in the UK. UK is estimated 64.5 millions and these people are expressing hatred while there isn't anything as a real threat. Not so many years ago, just less than a human life time, people who wrote "No Jews" on the windows of their shops in a certain country saw Jews exactly the same; danger/threat to their life in every way.

Their arguments would exactly be the same with anyone here or anywhere else who thinks this is OK, because those people were people like these ones and they saw Jews as threat in their own terms; economically, lawfully, socially..etc. UK population doesn't just have a problem with Muslims, they have a problem with immigrants in general. 10 years ago, they treated the Polish the same. Now they have a better minority to hate, because they are more 'alien'. If all muslims were deported from the country they would target another group in a different way and whine that immigrants are stealing their jobs and pose a threat to their society.

-The discussion about the language of the 'warning' here is pretty pointless. None of the muslims described in the 'warning' would hang around there let alone go there and drink. Anyone who does drink there has no problem with it anyway. On the other hand, probably they have been serving to a lot of muslims without even knowing, who they don't see as 'muslims' because they drink or their skin colour is not nonwhite. (Irony) Like half the country I live in for example. And now, why would they want to go there? 

They are just radicalising people. It serves to nothing but spark more hatred. Especially, if you think their policies -domestic/international- are based on this social balance. Talk about being clueless.

America is the melting pot compared to Europe while has a lot of way to go:

-The state is very powerful,
-The country is fucking HUGE
-The understanding of 'classes' does not get translated into the general culture with a 'cast' system as it happens in Europe which is denied constantly.

When people emigrate to the US and become successful with their jobs, besides their economical standing they also get a standing by themselves in the society; hence they become Americans, not just citizens on paper.

For example, my sister won a full phd scholarship from some American university and she has also worked as a res. assit. This happened just after the economical crisis in the begining of 2000s. They employed around 30 students that year. Then when they had to cut down, we thought she would lose her job as a res. asst. if not her scholarship, although she was successful. Because why not she is not an American, but just a 'fresh off the boat' for those people and she is competition.

It didn't happen. Because they only fired the ones under a certain performance without discrimination. And she didn't even think of staying there then, she was there to get an education.

Now, she is white, non religious and had a good edcuation to begin with and we can argue that she was equipped to survive, but the thing is, she observed that she got what she deserved when she works hard. That makes all the difference. She had all the support from her profs, not just money. Hence she became an American, before she became a citizen.

That doesn't happen in Europe. Yes, I am making a generalisation. In fact, many people who work hard, including people working in some jobs considered as 'prestigous' in general -universities, certain companies- hold a much lower standing in society compared to European born people. They are also considered as stealing high quality jobs while they are suppoosed to fill in menial job spots.

An average British born person without any education or facility to get a good job, would easily tell you that immigrants are stealing his job, because he cannot get the job he desires. And if you try to argue with them in a reasonable frame that they simply don't hold the standing to do the job they desire and so it will be filled with people who can, they will fire back how immigrants are trying to hijack the British society. And with the worst, under educated hooligan type you'll end hearing that how the UK is likely to be over run by muslims in a decade and the regime is under threat.

When my sister travels to Europe for some conference as a student for a poster thing, she wins a little award for a project and one of the profs there asks her why she chose America to get her education, but not Europe in a blatant manner. She gets very annoyed and tells him that Europe has nor the culture, neither the constitution to welcome people from underdeveloped countries to make a contribution. Did he get that? I have no idea. But this is the truth.

While USA has a LOT of way to go and constantly put down by Europe on racism, cultural discrimination and so on, the latter is a far more unwelcome, racist place to live for anyone who is nonwhite and born in another country.


PS I am not talking about some stupid notion called 'American dream'. Don't confuse what I am saying here with a made up, hyped up delusion.

Sometimes in spite of racism ... meritocracy gets in a few good licks ... though there is always a tide pushing the wrong way.

I am acquainted with a British Muslim (I suspect immigrant) who is an advocate for segregated education of young British Muslim children ... because the original British themselves are entirely degenerate predators (in his view).  I contrast to him, that deliberate assimilation works, if done for enough decades, and if there isn't a continuous stream of new people from the donor country.  When the immigration goes on for a long time, it seems that no progress of assimilation has happened, because the prior generation which has assimilated is invisible, and the new immigrants are all that stands out.  That is how it works in the US with Hispanics.  But British law supports velvet ghettos.

An outgrowth of the class system there, where the Ivy League model of education is much more broadly desired by the general populace, and it extends down to early schooling in private schools.  It is British law that supports this class structure, and immigrants have fit in, as a new caste, so long as they don't upset the caste system.  British people who are less class oriented, more nationalist, will be upset.  Change the laws, then immigrants won't come in for the wrong reasons.  Both sides exploit ... both with blame the victim (the other guy).  People adapt, give them reasons for the right adaptation ... angry demands won't work.  This is different than thinking you already have too many people ... that is a separate problem controlled with a different set of incentives.

Baruch, have you ever got out of the country, or state or the city you were born in? How many places in the world or States you have visited?

Just curious.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 04:05:44 AM
This is exactly the same thing with "NO JEWS" - "NO COLOUR" written on to the windows of shops in the past.

If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

Quote from: Johan on August 26, 2015, 07:31:05 AM
If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

Thats my argument. It to me looks like a stab (a rather blatantly crude stab) and extremism. True its insulting any country a Muslim might come from, but again I just think of it taking a stab at the kinds of extremist standards of countries that promote things like sharia law 

Baruch, that is a fairly accurate depiction of my experience as a Londoner. Though there are qualifications. i have yet to find a place where people are not prejudiced. Most people satisfied with their society will tell you there is no prejudice here, but be quite good at pointing out how some other group are awful and very prejudiced.
Both Brazilians and indians confidently tell people their societies are not racially prejudiced but the truth is that in both those places skin tone is a very strong predictor of social status.
I would say in Europe class is the major driving force of prejudice and that although there is racial prejudice the discrimination comes from race being associated with class.
For instance a person of Indian heritage and a white working class person.
If they are both equally qualified and going for a job as a doctor the middle class British selectors are more likely to identify with the Indian than the white working class person, because they have more culturally in common.On the other hand for a lower skilled job the Indian person will face a lot of prejudice, that the white working class person will not.

We can see this class discrimination depicted in the differences between the earnings in the communities in London from the Indian sub continent in those of a Pakistani background and those from Bangladesh which would superficially seem to be quite similar. Bangladesh is far less caste driven than Pakistan, so a Pakistani tends to be better able to negotiate the British class culture it is not that alien a notion to them so they fight for a place and position in society that gives them status often looking down on the indigenous population because they naturally adopt the prejudices of the British upper classes. The Bangladeshi tends to be more satisfied just to fit in with those around them.
This does not just impact on earnings but in the next generation where the Bangladeshi child's average educational achievement is way below that of the child from Pakistani inheritance. I would say this is due to the Pakistani child entering with an attitude of superiority whereas the Bangladeshi child is more likely to accept the position they are given.

I think you will see that if the above is truer than just being my personal assessment that in this structure which seems to be emphasising class and storing up prejudice, that this could well be creating deep problems in the future for London.

Now on the other hand I don't think the 'melting pot' approach is a solution either. I like difference I don't want to become part of a homogenous whole the very idea revolts me. I like knowing who I am and from where I come naturally. If the melting pot was such a good solution French Canadians would have won the 1812 war for the USA.

There is a lot to be said for difference. if we are the same there is little reason for us to talk as we are not going to learn from what we know already.
My desire is to have difference, but without notions of superiority.
That is going to be incredibly hard to achieve, but I think for all the problems it is a worthwhile goal to aim at. 

Quote from: Johan on August 26, 2015, 07:31:05 AM
If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

Really? Because the next one won't display that sign and this one looks reasonable to you? Because, it's put politically correct?

The 'warning' is openly addressed to muslims, while the group he means has no trade or business to do whatsoever with them.

There is no threat to these people. They are acting exactly like Christian groups in your country claiming they are being discriminated against under bullshit propaganda. And you think these are different things.

Quote from: Munch on August 26, 2015, 07:34:45 AM
Thats my argument. It to me looks like a stab (a rather blatantly crude stab) and extremism. True its insulting any country a Muslim might come from, but again I just think of it taking a stab at the kinds of extremist standards of countries that promote things like sharia law

As opposed to what would your argument be, if some store or a pub or some place displayed even a slightly homophobic warning, Munch? You are gay and you belong to a minority too.

There is no threat to your country from muslims. You are perfectly aware of that and the general culture built upon hatred against immigrants, the incompetency of your governments and the state. Scratch that, the general British culture that would make for example, let's say some places in Scotland dangerous to live for an Englishman.

Yet, you and others take joy in some brain dead piece of shit putting a sign of insulting an entire group of people who has nothing to do with their trade.

By the way, almost every poster in this forum among regulars got offended by one of my posts about USA in this or that way in the past 4 years.  Including you Johan.

So let's cut the crap of 'I wouldn't get offended by something like this'.

If you do not recognise this as for the thing it is, you are just making a choice not to.   

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 09:17:58 AM
As opposed to what would your argument be, if some store or a pub or some place displayed even a slightly homophobic warning, Munch? You are gay and you belong to a minority too.

There is no threat to your country from muslims. You are perfectly aware of that and the general culture built upon hatred against immigrants, the incompetency of your governments and the state. Scratch that, the general British culture that would make for example, let's say some places in Scotland dangerous to live for an Englishman.

Yet, you and others take joy in some brain dead piece of shit putting a sign of insulting an entire group of people who has nothing to do with their trade.

DS please understand, if I thought the sign was nothing but blatant racism without any other ulterior meaning, then I would regard it as just that. But I simply saw it as someone who was, in a ham fisted way, telling extremist Muslims to not bring extremist views over to the uk, which I agree with, we have extremists in the uk who do come over here and want sharia law made a thing in the uk. To those people I would indeed say fuck off to.

If the sigh said kill all brown people, then I would take great offense to it and even rip it down myself. But it left me wondering if it was that, or taking a stab as extremism. Theres never been a case of gay men wanting violence and rape made a law in the uk, so its not quite the same thing as telling extremists views to fuck off.

Quote from: Munch on August 26, 2015, 10:09:09 AM
DS please understand, if I thought the sign was nothing but blatant racism without any other ulterior meaning, then I would regard it as just that. But I simply saw it as someone who was, in a ham fisted way, telling extremist Muslims to not bring extremist views over to the uk, which I agree with, we have extremists in the uk who do come over here and want sharia law made a thing in the uk. To those people I would indeed say fuck off to.

The warning is not saying fuck off to the 'extremist' muslims. It says 'fuck off to muslims', because the people who wrote that sign see no difference. In fact those people have no idea who is from what country, which ones drink which ones do not, they do not have any trade with them at all. That's highly likely one of the reasons they are so comfortable with this.

QuoteIf the sigh said kill all brown people, then I would take great offense to it and even rip it down myself. But it left me wondering if it was that, or taking a stab as extremism. Theres never been a case of gay men wanting violence and rape made a law in the uk, so its not quite the same thing as telling extremists views to fuck off.

You know perfectly well that NOONE can dare to put up a sign to anywhere as to "KILL 'insert of any group of people' " in London. Because it would be illegal and it would get the pub into trouble, to be investigated and even out of business for a time. So your example is irrelevant.

Also what is so disturbing here is that your implication of that racism is limited to a blatant call for to kill some group of people. But if you are getting your direction from Pat Condell, it might as well be.


If you start to think similar to the extremists you are fundamentally against, may be it is time to reconsider where you are standing.

"MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!"

"MEXICANS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You want to speak Spanish? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and go back to the monstrous shitholes you came from. You can speak Spanish there and enjoy it as much as you like!""

"ATHEISTS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You don't want to worship God? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and move to fucking Russia. You can study your evolution and have abortions all you like!"


It's a very versatile sentiment.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 10:30:18 AM
"MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!"

"MEXICANS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You want to speak Spanish? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and go back to the monstrous shitholes you came from. You can speak Spanish there and enjoy it as much as you like!""

"ATHEISTS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You don't want to worship God? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and move to fucking Russia. You can study your evolution and have abortions all you like!"


It's a very versatile sentiment.

Why can't I go to a shithole like everybody else, why do I have to go to Russia? That's prejudice that is!

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 10:25:01 AM

Also what is so disturbing here is that your implication of that racism is limited to a blatant call for to kill some group of people. But if you are getting your direction from Pat Condell, it might as well be.

I really wasn't implying that, and I'm sorry if it came off that way, I was using the most extreme of examples, but I know full well racism is not just people saying to kill one group but a huge variable different attacks against one group of people.

I will say I count Muslim as i count Christian, not a race but a belief. but even then if I saw it regarding an entire group of people based on belief systems blatantly, like Jews were by the nazi party, telling them to fuck off for just being muslim, then yeah I'd agree thats just ridiculous.

I just happen to be someone who hates seeing extremists from another country bringing that extremist view over to a country like the uk and expecting those views to be adopted here, or for new laws to be made that contradict the laws in place here. I am very liberal minded to people of all races and creeds, and to some extent their beliefs. I just am completely against those wanting a progressive country to bow down to their backwards ways from a country they left, or one they think should have backwards laws implemented in if they were born in it.

This is why this thing caused such a varied view, because it can be seen as racism, but it can also be seen as making a point against extremism. And for a gay group to be the same, you would need a militant gay group running around raping people who were all positive and spreading HIV by force. If such a group existed then yeah I would want those kinds of people to fuck off too. But its not the same because there hasn't been a gay group thats done that, not in the uk I'm aware of. There have however been plenty of militant sharia followers in the uk cutting off peoples heads.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 10:30:18 AM
"MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!"

"MEXICANS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You want to speak Spanish? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and go back to the monstrous shitholes you came from. You can speak Spanish there and enjoy it as much as you like!""

"ATHEISTS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You don't want to worship God? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and move to fucking Russia. You can study your evolution and have abortions all you like!"


It's a very versatile sentiment.

Never met a mexican that wanted to impose a style of government that is different from ours, seems like the ones I have met actually like it. Don't know any atheists demanding a different style of government not already existing. I suppose you could say it was a nice try, but I wouldn't say so. Trying to demand a government that holds women to be no better than pigs is a somewhat a large step from demanding the existing constitution be followed.

Quote from: Munch on August 26, 2015, 11:40:29 AM
I really wasn't implying that, and I'm sorry if it came off that way, I was using the most extreme of examples, but I know full well racism is not just people saying to kill one group but a huge variable different attacks against one group of people.

I will say I count Muslim as i count Christian, not a race but a belief. but even then if I saw it regarding an entire group of people based on belief systems blatantly, like Jews were by the nazi party, telling them to fuck off for just being muslim, then yeah I'd agree thats just ridiculous.

I just happen to be someone who hates seeing extremists from another country bringing that extremist view over to a country like the uk and expecting those views to be adopted here, or for new laws to be made that contradict the laws in place here. I am very liberal minded to people of all races and creeds, and to some extent their beliefs. I just am completely against those wanting a progressive country to bow down to their backwards ways from a country they left, or one they think should have backwards laws implemented in if they were born in it.

This is why this thing caused such a varied view, because it can be seen as racism, but it can also be seen as making a point against extremism. And for a gay group to be the same, you would need a militant gay group running around raping people who were all positive and spreading HIV by force. If such a group existed then yeah I would want those kinds of people to fuck off too. But its not the same because there hasn't been a gay group thats done that, not in the uk I'm aware of. There have however been plenty of militant sharia followers in the uk cutting off peoples heads.

Munch, do you actually believe that extremist islamists are a real threat to change the regime in the UK and install Sharia? Please don't give me series of irrelevant fantasy examples. Just give me an answer.

Are you aware that those people who travel to the ME to join ISIL include white European born people out of muslim groups? How are you going to explain that?

QuoteMunch, do you actually believe that extremist islamists are a real threat to change the regime in the UK and install Sharia?

Of course not. but I don't like the idea of them trying to bring it over here by example either, which has been happening a lot lately. The UK making it clear that sharia law is not welcome here doesn't stop those following it trying to implement, when they behead people or make women into slaves, in this country.

Quotehttp://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women

The report shows how the increasing influence of Sharia law in Britain today is undermining the fundamental principle that there must be equality for all British citizens under a single law of the land.

"I feel betrayed by Britain. I came here to get away from this and the situation is worse here than in the country I escaped from." â€" Muslim woman interviewed for the report.

The report concludes by calling on the British government to launch a judge-led inquiry to "determine the extent to which discriminatory Sharia law principles are being applied within the UK."

"The government's response will be a litmus test of the extent to which it genuinely upholds the principle of equality before the law or is so dominated by the fear of 'giving offense' that it will continue to allow these women to suffer in ways which would make our suffragettes turn in their graves." â€" Baroness Caroline Cox.

QuoteAre you aware that those people who travel to the ME to join ISIL include white European born people out of muslim groups? How are you going to explain that?

I'm very aware of it, which is why I say a stance against extremism is needed, regardless if people come over to the uk with it, or live in the uk and promote it. Race doesn't factor into it, belief does, and messed up beliefs like those following Isis or other extremist groups isn't something that should be tolerated.

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 11:42:02 AM
Never met a mexican that wanted to impose a style of government that is different from ours, seems like the ones I have met actually like it. Don't know any atheists demanding a different style of government not already existing. I suppose you could say it was a nice try, but I wouldn't say so. Trying to demand a government that holds women to be no better than pigs is a somewhat a large step from demanding the existing constitution be followed.

You never met any muslim that wanted to impose a style of government that is different from yours too. You are just reading colourfully painted the news how islamist extremism is about to swallow the earth for almost 13 years now. It's become a 'fact'. And it pays a lot.

There is no threat to anyone -except us here in my country- in the UK or Europe or the US involving a regime change from sharia supporting groups. It's fucking ridiculous.

Thinking something like that is equally stupid to thinking the satanist-muslim Obama is going to send drones to kill christians in Texas ffs.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 11:59:39 AM
You never met any muslim that wanted to impose a style of government that is different from yours too. You are just reading colourfully painted the news how islamist extremism is about to swallow the earth for almost 13 years now. It's become a 'fact'. And it pays a lot.

There is no threat to anyone -except us here in my country- in the UK or Europe or the US involving a regime change from sharia supporting groups. It's fucking ridiculous.

Thinking something like that is equally stupid to thinking the satanist-muslim Obama is going to send drones to kill christians in Texas ffs.

Until you see that there is a deep problem behind closed doors here in the uk.

(http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/pics/large/1013.jpg)

QuoteHaitham al-Haddad is a British Sharia court judge, and sits on the board of advisors for the Islamic Sharia Council. Regarding the handling of domestic violence cases, he stated in an interview, "A man should not be questioned why he hit his wife, because this is something between them. Leave them alone. They can sort their matters among themselves." (Image source: Channel 4 News video screenshot)

We have laws in the uk about domestic violence, but people like this want to forgo the law in this country and make up there own.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 11:59:39 AM

There is no threat to anyone -except us here in my country- in the UK or Europe or the US involving a regime change from sharia supporting groups.

:think:    Martin Niemöller :whistle:

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 11:42:02 AM
Never met a mexican that wanted to impose a style of government that is different from ours, seems like the ones I have met actually like it. Don't know any atheists demanding a different style of government not already existing. I suppose you could say it was a nice try, but I wouldn't say so. Trying to demand a government that holds women to be no better than pigs is a somewhat a large step from demanding the existing constitution be followed.

Notice I used the word sentiment. This note isn't about the reality of what any minority actually wants or has the capability of carrying out but what the person posting the note perceives as a threat. The sentiment is "you are challenging of values of our group and we want you out." Whether or not the reader of the note agrees with the sentiment indicates whether that individual perceives the minority group as a threat.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 12:18:27 PM
This note isn't about the reality of what any minority actually wants or has the capability of carrying out but what the person posting the note perceives as a threat.

From what I have been seeing and reading, there is a very real threat that Muslims in the UK are working to install Sharia law at the least within the confines of their neighborhoods. This certainly would be more than a mere "sentiment".

Quote from: Munch on August 26, 2015, 11:58:09 AM
Of course not. but I don't like the idea of them trying to bring it over here by example either, which has been happening a lot lately.

You realise that sentence suggests some groups are using Sharia laws in the UK, right? And if they are and the state/government; the law is not doing anything, don't you think there is something else wrong with this?

However you look at this, this sign you enjoy is a very poor way of trying to solve anything and it is radicalising, sparking hatred and racist. Islam isn't have to be a race to call this sign racist, because xenophobic sounds light right now. The jews example stands. But then nobody is thinking about a white muslim having a beer, now are they?

Also there is something you keep avoiding in my posts and that is the general extreme hatred of immigrants in your country and it is a culture of it sown coming from a moe ancient one. I have been seeing this as long as I have known myself and started to know British people and culture. It results from the 'natural' cast system of British culture against eeach other under English rule and others. So before muslims there has always been this hatred culture and with growing demography and American poltics, it targets a certain group.

For example, in my mother language there is a word for British, but it never gets used, because as that culture took root here addressing Brits, it is always English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh. If you call any of those 'British' they would correct you. They even tried to make me memorise the whole set of offensive names they call each other so I could understand what was meant and I haven't even visited UK yet. 

QuoteI'm very aware of it, which is why I say a stance against extremism is needed, regardless if people come over to the uk with it, or live in the uk and promote it. Race doesn't factor into it, belief does, and messed up beliefs like those following Isis or other extremist groups isn't something that should be tolerated.

OK. Another question then. How is that people who were raised in a far more liberal and comfortable culture with more opportunities get to be islamist extremists and decide to travel to the ME to fight for ISIL? They are young. Have their whole life ahead of them. 

What makes these people so open and prone to become terrorists, ready whackos to cut people's heads off or be concubines for those who do? Why do they hate their own culture that much or think it is the wrong one to live in? Because we are not talking about just 1 or 2 or 20 people, Munch.

Could it be the structure of that cultural hierarchy? That everyday there are less young people who can find a place to themselves in UK society without being pushed around starting when they are very young. 

Could it be that when we are talking about failure of integration and assimilation of Europe's muslim minorities, we actually miss that may be they should start to assimilate their own in the first place?
Something is not working is it? And it looks very simple and easy to chalk that up to a religion.

This is not just something that could reduced to a nutjob belief system. People naturally desire to be content and try to do the least possible amount of job to reach there. Starting with their own. Traveling from Europe from that life -even when you are homeless underthose laws that they can find  alotof things to dı- to the ME to fight for an army bent on annihilating whatever is on their way suggests more than a few Quran verse convincing people for world cihad. Esp. if you consider they are not really friendly to each other either and that there is no guarantee for anything.

So let's think about from that angle for a moment...

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
:think:    Martin Niemöller :whistle:

:lol: Nutter.

Quote from: Munch on August 26, 2015, 12:04:22 PM
Until you see that there is a deep problem behind closed doors here in the uk.

Munch, I KNOW about that.  :sad2: And I wrote several times that there should be laws made to deport these people. I wrote that they didn't do anything about extremist schools in the name of freedom of religion although they knew what has been going on. They knew about the birth rate in European countries and in muslim groups 40 years ago when they took all those people in.

They need to deport those people. Will they do it?

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 12:24:28 PM
From what I have been seeing and reading, there is a very real threat that Muslims in the UK are working to install Sharia law at the least within the confines of their neighborhoods. This certainly would be more than a mere "sentiment".

It's more than a sentiment, however it is very wrongly done. It's a fucking pub.

They need to get in to those 'behind doors' and deport those people. Make laws to arrest them.

What would happen in the States if that was the picture? (Well suppose that something like that happened.)

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 12:48:20 PM
It's more than a sentiment, however it is very wrongly done. It's a fucking pub.

They need to get in to those 'behind doors' and deport those people. Make laws to arrest them.

What would happen in the States if that was the picture? (Well suppose that something like that happened.)

I am not sure of the question, there are indeed many places in the US that most likely have signs similar to that. Shit like that is all over FB here in the states.

"On the one hand, It could be percieved as racist against all Muslims as the heading would make it seem like its against them."

Assholes such as Ben Affleck would call that "racist", but Islam isn't a race.

What matters is that this is incendiary, which never leads to anything positive. Then again, what would a Muslim, being forbidden from drinking while treating his wife as his personal unpaid chef and waitress be doing at a pub?

As I understand it, the laws are very different in the US vs England.  So in England, the problem is bad law.  In the US it is non-enforcement of the law.  Of course if England changes their law, then they still have the problem of enforcement.

Certainly activity judged seditious in England or the US ... should be proscribed by law, and then enforced ... particularly on undesirable immigrants.  We had that crazy Egyptian mullah try to blow up the Trade Towers in 1993 for example ... oversight and other stuff prevented his blocking at the airport on entry.  The 9/11 terrorists also should have been blocked, based on what the authorities already knew.  But it wasn't enforced ... and that drives the conspiracy theories.

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 12:24:28 PM
From what I have been seeing and reading, there is a very real threat that Muslims in the UK are working to install Sharia law at the least within the confines of their neighborhoods. This certainly would be more than a mere "sentiment".

Exactly, you perceive Muslims in the U.K. at a legitimate threat to women's rights and public safety. Conservative Americans perceive Mexican immigrants as a legitimate threat to jobs and wages. Evangelical Christians perceive militant atheists as a legitimate threat to Christian values. Whether the perceived threat is legitimate or not, I see the reaction to the perceived threat to be similar.

Being honest, I'm not very interested in the actual topic of this thread but in how forum members react to the scenario presented.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 01:33:39 PM

Being honest, I'm not very interested in the actual topic of this thread but in how forum members react to the scenario presented.

to be equally honest, I would not be surprised at any time to walk into a Bar or other place of business and see any of the suggested "signs" you suggested, even here in the USA,  nor would I be offended. People do have their opinions, and if they have reached that point, little headway will be made trying to change their mind.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 25, 2015, 10:12:57 PM
According to xenophobes like someone who would found the "Infidels against Islam"? Yeah, he would probably say the same thing if he grew up in that time. There were very small sections of my culture that refused to follow the law, that didn't follow the same religion, that were offended by the new culture. But that small section did not represent all of us, just as it doesn't represent Muslims... and just as it is with Muslims, the rest of us condemned them for it... all the while being told that we were criminals and should go back to our "shitholes" as we got exploited and prejudiced against.

"My people" had entire sections of major cities (now we call it "Little Italy") where people only interacted with those of the same community, who refused to speak English, and practiced a different religion than everyone else. We had our "own laws" (many Italian immigrants were proponents of socialism and communism thanks to the terrible working conditions they endured at capitalists who exploited them left and right) and wanted to "change American forever, for the worse!"... the whole "Red Scare", that lead to people like Sacco and Vanzetti to have bullshit trials and executed for, basically, being Italian in America.

We had "radicals", mafiosi, who wanted to completely subvert the law and enforce their own through extortion and murder. We were portrayed as ultra-violent (terrorists). More than 2/3rds of film portrayed us as criminals and mobsters (how many movies portray the Muslim as a good, or even neutral, character?). There was the Immigration Act of 1924, which basically was, "OMG THESE FOREIGNERS, NOT POINTING FINGERS (*WHISPER* ITS THE ITALIANS! *WHISPER*) ARE DESTROYING OUR WAY OF LIFE! WE HAVE TO CLOSE THE BORDDDDERS!!!".

So yes... that was the popular opinion of my people, that we wanted to destroy your culture and way of life and change your political systems and we were violent terrorists (er, gangsters) and so on. And to a lesser extent my German ancestors and to a similar extent my Irish ancestors had to deal with the exact same bullshit. And yet it was a super small percentage, just like the percentage of Muslims in the U.S. or U.K. who could give half a fuck about breaking the law or "converting you to Sharia". It's a bullshit boogieman, and the fact that we haven't learned from it is really depressing.

But it's whatever I suppose to allow this bullshit, it's just innocent Italians being lynched across the South, or Muslims being attacked on subways and having their Mosques vandalized and shot at. What's the big deal, let it slide... it's not like he is intentionally trying to spark the fire with his rhetoric! He only means the bad ones, and EVERYONE knows that, right?

Edit: Oh my god, I almost forgot to post these gems...

Same shit, different day. The world is coming to an end, the immigrants are going to destroy our way of life!

Everyone, which includes you, and xenophobes too, is entitled to their opinion, and the right to express it in public. The xenophobe which wrote the message in question and posted it where he did was not even in public. It wasn't where a  Muslim would be expected to see it either, - not in a pub! Not that any of this legally matters, when nobody there gets discriminated against on service. I really can do without this sort of Ben Affleck / Reza Aslan bullshit.

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 01:38:39 PM
to be equally honest, I would not be surprised at any time to walk into a Bar or other place of business and see any of the suggested "signs" you suggested, even here in the USA,  nor would I be offended. People do have their opinions, and if they have reached that point, little headway will be made trying to change their mind.

I agree. The message is the same, only the players are different. I hear it every day.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 01:33:39 PM
Exactly, you perceive Muslims in the U.K. at a legitimate threat to women's rights and public safety. Conservative Americans perceive Mexican immigrants as a legitimate threat to jobs and wages. Evangelical Christians perceive militant atheists as a legitimate threat to Christian values. Whether the perceived threat is legitimate or not, I see the reaction to the perceived threat to be similar.

Being honest, I'm not very interested in the actual topic of this thread but in how forum members react to the scenario presented.

This is something which American readers should be aware of, that there are mullahs throughout the UK are defying British law, declaring their neighborhoods legally Muslim, and attacking police who step in to enforce it when they take to  flogging women in public.

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 12:56:31 PM
I am not sure of the question, there are indeed many places in the US that most likely have signs similar to that. Shit like that is all over FB here in the states.

Similar signs?

USA is 311 millions, only the 0.9 % of that is muslims -very different groups- and they are giving signs that they are trying to install sharia law in an approximately 10 million km square country? :eh:

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 01:54:03 PM
This is something which American readers should be aware of, that there are mullahs throughout the UK are defying British law, declaring their neighborhoods legally Muslim, and attacking police who step in to enforce it when they take to  flogging women in public.

Oh and don't forget the giant cats, knocking down buildings and eating all the cream!
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/de2d0ad31642ad82cf0a790787b313c6/tumblr_nb6db7wkJh1skej53o2_400.gif)

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 01:54:03 PM
This is something which American readers should be aware of, that there are mullahs throughout the UK are defying British law, declaring their neighborhoods legally Muslim, and attacking police who step in to enforce it when they take to  flogging women in public.

Yes, and that story should be reported in the news with accurate reports and analysis by experts. I would find such news interesting. That some nobody pub owner in the U.K. writes a potentially offensive note is of little interest to me because people do stupid, offensive things all the time. Yes, I know many people love anecdotes of this kind because the story is simple and creates an emotional response, yes and I know short, simple and emotional can be very effective-- just ask Fox News. Still, I have a category in my brain where I file news stories that are essentially "SOME NOBODY SAID OR DID A STUPID THING. PEOPLE OUTRAGED." That file gets a lot of use.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Everyone, which includes you, and xenophobes too, is entitled to their opinion, and the right to express it in public. The xenophobe which wrote the message in question and posted it where he did was not even in public. It wasn't where a  Muslim would be expected to see it either, - not in a pub! Not that any of this legally matters, when nobody there gets discriminated against on service. I really can do without this sort of Ben Affleck / Reza Aslan bullshit.

Oh what fucking bullshit. Another citizen of the great banana republic. After that^ every time you use the word 'strawman' against anyone here, a kitten will drop dead somewhere. And he typed 'when nobody gets discirminated against on service' somewhere in all that. OW.

Everyone is trying SO HARD to make ways to define this sign as something normal, it is so comical, because everyone in this forum would get batshit crazy over a slightly homophobic slur written somewhere.

The blatant hypocrisy and irony of it all. Come on people, bend and wash it some more.

Where is pr. I miss him. He would write an epic novel from all this.

Quote from: jonb on August 26, 2015, 02:15:29 PM
Oh and don't forget the giant cats, knocking down buildings and eating all the cream!
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/de2d0ad31642ad82cf0a790787b313c6/tumblr_nb6db7wkJh1skej53o2_400.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2y5n-hAnUE

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 02:39:04 PM
Yes, and that story should be reported in the news with accurate reports and analysis by experts. I would find such news interesting. That some nobody pub owner in the U.K. writes a potentially offensive note is of little interest to me because people do stupid, offensive things all the time. Yes, I know many people love anecdotes of this kind because the story is simple and creates an emotional response, yes and I know short, simple and emotional can be very effective-- just ask Fox News. Still, I have a category in my brain where I file news stories that are essentially "SOME NOBODY SAID OR DID A STUPID THING. PEOPLE OUTRAGED." That file gets a lot of use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6U6Hhy_2M

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/11/24936FBE00000578-0-image-a-58_1420939394735.jpg)
Jewish police London.

If anyone needs an American parallel just read John Steinbeck's novel The Grapes of Wrath and realize it wasn't Muslims, Jews or Italians. It was people from Oklahoma fleeing from the dust bowl heading to California to just pick crops.  The issue then wasn't religious extremism or even crossing national boundaries, but the perception of poverty, jobs and honesty.

peacewithoutgod, there were 'better' videos in the forum than all that posted a couple of years ago. (I have no idea if they survived the crash though) We all know about it. You are not breaking news to anyone.

However, may be you should break it to the British government(s). They don't seem very interested in it though.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 26, 2015, 03:10:26 PM
peacewithoutgod, there were 'better' videos in the forum than all that posted a couple of years ago. (I have no idea if they survived the crash though) We all know about it. You are not breaking news to anyone.

However, may be you should break it to the British government(s). They don't seem very interested in it though.

Well, I just happened to recall this news flap from around the time that it happened. Are you guys laughing me down on account of something I didn't catch? Has the video where Muslims in London defied London cops shouting "This is a Muslim neighborhood!" (I'm sure enough I saw that happen in one of the videos which went out then) been determined a hoax?

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 03:14:05 PM
Well, I just happened to recall this news flap from around the time that it happened. Are you guys laughing me down on account of something I didn't catch? Has the video where Muslims in London defied London cops shouting "This is a Muslim neighborhood!" (I'm sure enough I saw that happen in one of the videos which went out then) been determined a hoax?

I laughed at the giant cat gif, because it was placed perfectly. :lol: Other than that I wrote what I think about your comment on the sign.

I don't know about that video, I meant the videos of that sort in general. They are not something new. The videos I was talking about showed a young muslim men interrupting couples walking hand in hand and women wearing mini skirts and I think one was about a muslim rally yeeears ago.

They need to control the media and arrest those people. Are they doing it? No. Why?

Quote from: jonb on August 26, 2015, 02:15:29 PM
Oh and don't forget the giant cats, knocking down buildings and eating all the cream!
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/de2d0ad31642ad82cf0a790787b313c6/tumblr_nb6db7wkJh1skej53o2_400.gif)

OMG OMG OMG! We need a constitutional amendment against giant cats knocking down buildings and drinking all the cream! Someone tell The Donald! 
(http://pro.wpro-am.tritonflex.com/images/featured_image/0/paired_modules/6/1361908153_stretch.png)
Ronald might stand a better chance ..

QuoteEveryone, which includes you, and xenophobes too, is entitled to their opinion, and the right to express it in public.

No, they actually aren't. And you cant make an objective statement like that anyways about "rights", because there is no such thing as objective "rights".

QuoteIt wasn't where a  Muslim would be expected to see it either, - not in a pub!

"He didn't say the remarks infront of black people, he just stirred fear up at his local KKK rally! What's the matter with it then?"

Allpurposeatheist ... most of the refugees to California were from dust bowl N and W Texas.  But many people have a hard time distinguishing them from Okies ;-)  Water was more scarce where the Ogalala Aquifer is being sucked dry today ... than places East of N Texas.  But West Oklahoma isn't a lot different.  Things are a lot greener in the East part of Oklahoma.

There is a sharia movement, particularly in Europe.  We see this in the banluies around Paris.  What is nasty is the idea from the early days of Imperial Islam, that any spot a Muslim is standing on or is permanently part of the Arabic Empire.  And any spot a Muslim has prayed in, is a defacto mosque, that is permanently part of the religious quarter ... it is haram (forbidden) to all non-Muslims.  This is how the Temple Mount in Jerusalem became a mosque, for nearly 1350 years now.  The Caliph prayed there when he visited, after the initial conquest of Palestine.  So once a Muslim steps on each square foot of Britain, the Muslims have a permanent claim to all your territory.

The whole point of religious texts is that they are meaningless, but at the same time can be used to justify whatever the theist wants them to justify.

IsiS at the moment is inspired by star trek first they have to impose a single world government and then build warp drive.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8667/16496223468_7b98658072_b.jpg)

The problem is for thiests that other thiests that don't like them will read the same meaningless drivel and say look it shows how horrible they are

True that.  I once saw a scifi book about Israelis in space.  The space ship was shaped like a gigantic star of David.  All the surviving Jews went off to a new promised land ... but fundie Muslims still pursued them even there.  Jewish nightmares are different than Gentile nightmares.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
No, they actually aren't. And you cant make an objective statement like that anyways about "rights", because there is no such thing as objective "rights".

"He didn't say the remarks infront of black people, he just stirred fear up at his local KKK rally! What's the matter with it then?"

Alright, now this is where you're getting a little bit off the rails. Take a deep breath, before you hurt somebody or yourself!

Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2015, 08:08:12 PM
True that.  I once saw a scifi book about Israelis in space.  The space ship was shaped like a gigantic star of David.  All the surviving Jews went off to a new promised land ... but fundie Muslims still pursued them even there.  Jewish nightmares are different than Gentile nightmares.

Sounds like the stuff of a Mel Brooks movie, and if makes one I'd like to see it. I've already seen "Jews In Space".

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 08:16:15 PM
Sounds like the stuff of a Mel Brooks movie, and if anybody makes one I'd like to see it. I've already seen "Jews In Space".

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 08:13:10 PM
Alright, now this is where you're getting a little bit off the rails. Take a deep breath, before you hurt somebody or yourself!

Alright, tell me a place with freedom of speech to say anything you like. Then prove there are such things as "objective rights" you are entitled to.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2015, 09:09:30 PM
Alright, tell me a place with freedom of speech to say anything you like. Then prove there are such things as "objective rights" you are entitled to.

In the US, freedom of expression is protected by the 1st Amendment of our Constitution.

Don't ask me about UK law, but if it hasn't caught up with the US on that, I don't know why I haven't heard of anyone there being jailed for making non-threatening or non-violent speech in public by now. You may want to read the post again, and notice that the posted sign wasn't specifically violent or threatening, and then it wasn't made in public either. But don't be mad at me, because I don't endorse it.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 09:26:49 PM
In the US, freedom of expression is protected by the 1st Amendment of our Constitution.

Don't ask me about UK law, but if it hasn't caught up with the US on that, I don't know why I haven't heard of anyone there being jailed for making non-threatening or non-violent speech in public by now. You may want to read the post again, and notice that the posted sign wasn't specifically violent or threatening, and then it wasn't made in public either. But don't be mad at me, because I don't endorse it.

Wrong. Not all speech is protected.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2015, 09:09:30 PM
Alright, tell me a place with freedom of speech to say anything you like. Then prove there are such things as "objective rights" you are entitled to.

Is it not the case that in truth there are only places that have particular restrictions produced by governments cultures, etc, out side their areas of influence there are no restrictions and so no need for rights, as we could define an individuals right as no more than a limitation on an authorities ability to control that individual.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2015, 09:42:15 PM
Wrong. Not all speech is protected.

Didn't I cover what isn't protected? Other than making outright threats, or inciting a crowd to riot, the 1st Amendment covers it all. I don't see how these stipulations cover the sign in question, when posted in a private business. It's not even discrimination, being not about whether they would serve anyone who appears to be Muslim.

Violation of a contract agreement can be pursued when the contract was signed under your consent.

You cannot disclose government secrets either, but this stipulation is under scrutiny now by many Americans in the case of whistle-blowers like Edward Snowden.

So far, it's me who listed four examples, and you zero. Now it's late, and you probably need sleep too. I'll check your response when I have time tomorrow.

QuoteDidn't I cover what isn't protected?

You did. But since speech clearly is not "objectively" free, then that line of what can and cant be said is therefor subjective. And believe it or not, but the government sometimes bends the rules if it feels it has a reason (justifiably or not) to. Hate speech falls under that, and likewise what the government does or doesn't consider hateful. And private property or not, if the government didn't like it, it has the right to pull it/punish for it.

Ultimately this and your four examples are all irrelevant because I have never said the government should or shouldn't ban this speech. Personally I don't think they should; I think people should be smart enough not to post such filth on their own. What I DID say was that it is loaded with xenophobia and is the exact same bullshit that my ancestors went through, and that it IS intended to stoke the fire of, "YEAH! Dem' immigrants are ruinin' everything!".

It's posted at a bar, where no Muslim is going to see it... and you think this is intended as a message to Muslims? More specifically, a message to radical Muslims who want to install Sharia Law and enforce their way of life upon you? No? Then who do you think it is a message to?

-Who exactly do you think the intended audience was for the author?
-What senses, pathos or logos, do you think he was appealing to?
-(Spoiler for question 3) since it is an argument of pathos, what emotions was he trying to invoke in his audience?
-What do you think his objective was?
-What makes it any different from what my ancestors (just change "Radical Islam" to "Roman Catholic Communists and Anarchists" ) went through(minus the public lynchings)?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy this bullshit of, "I'm an atheist, therefor anything religion does is inherently wrong and anything that critcises it is inherently right!", especially when the argument has nothing to do with the religion at hand but rather a super-small percentage of a super-small population that is supposedly going to destroy your way of life. This has fuck all to do with Islam, and everything to do with, "The OTHERS are coming to destroy our way of life!".

Muslims go to bars plenty I would think. The 9/11 hijackers were partying it up at the strip club. The guy who just killed those Marines was a drug addict or an alcoholic. IS kills it's members regularly for using drugs or smoking or whatever. Muslims "sin" just like everyone else.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 27, 2015, 09:02:39 PM
Muslims go to bars plenty I would think. The 9/11 hijackers were partying it up at the strip club. The guy who just killed those Marines was a drug addict or an alcoholic. IS kills it's members regularly for using drugs or smoking or whatever. Muslims "sin" just like everyone else.

Right, I'll let yall two sort out if they go to bars are not, and ask my questions accordingly from there.

Does the person who put up the sign know that Muslims aren't supposed to go to bars?

Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2015, 08:10:14 PM
Hate speech falls under that, and likewise what the government does or doesn't consider hateful. And private property or not, if the government didn't like it, it has the right to pull it/punish for it.

You may have conflated hate speech with hate crime legislation, not the same. Speech isn't a crime, and the government of the US has no right to punish anyone for what they say about people in other groups. If it did, then the KKK would be just a bad memory.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2015, 08:10:14 PM

It's posted at a bar, where no Muslim is going to see it... and you think this is intended as a message to Muslims? More specifically, a message to radical Muslims who want to install Sharia Law and enforce their way of life upon you? No? Then who do you think it is a message to?

-Who exactly do you think the intended audience was for the author?
-What senses, pathos or logos, do you think he was appealing to?
-(Spoiler for question 3) since it is an argument of pathos, what emotions was he trying to invoke in his audience?
-What do you think his objective was?
-What makes it any different from what my ancestors (just change "Radical Islam" to "Roman Catholic Communists and Anarchists" ) went through(minus the public lynchings)?

It is, first and foremost, in a place for entertainment, and it is solicitous to the anticipated and pre-existing sentiment (no more) of the crowd which is served there.

It is no different from what the KKK states in the public square today on blacks. If you happen to be a black American, then you already know worse with the KKK, which is also saying what the US cannot jail them for. Unlike American blacks, who made no choice regarding their presence in the US, the country to which you immigrate is your own choice.

Don't read into this, but I do happen to be the descendant of immigrants who believed in the "when in Rome.." cultural immigration philosophy, and it actually worked for for this group, which arrived in a land that said for decades "No Irish Need Apply".

Fact is regardless of the "true" interpretation of Islam or any religion, not every member of the religion openly adheres to extremist beliefs even if that makes them "hypocrites".

So I'd say there's no reason to mention "Muslims" as a whole other than to be a dick.

Like Islam or not, if someone believes that "every Muslim" is secretly plotting a theocracy and simply not openly admitting it due to the "takkyah" or something then that's a conspiracy theory worthy of a tin foil hat. It'd be the same as suggesting that every Christian is secretly plotting to stone gays and bring back heretic burnings.

But truth is not every individual Christian or Muslim is actually doing that in practice even if that is the "true interpretation" of their religion - in that case it just makes them hypocrites, but I'd rather have a peaceful hypocrite than a terrorist who's "true to their faith" myself.

Quote from: Ace101 on September 09, 2015, 08:36:16 PM
Fact is regardless of the "true" interpretation of Islam or any religion, not every member of the religion openly adheres to extremist beliefs even if that makes them "hypocrites".

So I'd say there's no reason to mention "Muslims" as a whole other than to be a dick.

Like Islam or not, if someone believes that "every Muslim" is secretly plotting a theocracy and simply not openly admitting it due to the "takkyah" or something then that's a conspiracy theory worthy of a tin foil hat. It'd be the same as suggesting that every Christian is secretly plotting to stone gays and bring back heretic burnings.

But truth is not every individual Christian or Muslim is actually doing that in practice even if that is the "true interpretation" of their religion - in that case it just makes them hypocrites, but I'd rather have a peaceful hypocrite than a terrorist who's "true to their faith" myself.

I couldn't really care less if Muslims are "plotting a theocracy", every one of them is a problem if they have access to children.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 09, 2015, 08:41:37 PM
I couldn't really care less if Muslims are "plotting a theocracy", every one of them is a problem if they have access to children.

I'd say that while even a moderate Muslim's beliefs might have some bad influence on children, it isn't arguably "worse" just because "they're a Muslim" than the influence which other forms of bad parenting have.

So focusing exclusively on "Muslims" is just misguided anger. If a Muslim believes in Allah in the privacy of his own home, that's not a battle I'll pick - it's only when his belief turns into action that I'll take a stand against him.