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Quote from: SolitarySince

There's no support in either direction. It's just a book of gibberish written by a manipulative con-man, just like all other holy books.

I know lots of Mormons, living as I do in San Diego, which along with Las Vegas has one of the largest LDS communities outside Utah.  Really nice people for the most part, which makes their adhearence to such a nutty thelogy all that much more confusing.

Quote from: "Plu"There's no support in either direction. It's just a book of gibberish written by a manipulative con-man, just like all other holy books.

I respect your opinion. :)

Quote from: "Eve"P.S. There are many claims that BoM is false but all of them have no support.

 :roll: Can you read Reformed Egyptian too?  

Smith is a known fraudster.  Another of his so-called translations the LDS church has canonized is the Book of Abraham.  Old Joe claimed to translate when people could not read hieroglyphics.  Funny thing is that pieces of it turned up in the 1960's when by then we could read hieroglyphics.  It turned out to be a standard funerary text that bore absolutely no relation to what old Joe supposedly translated into the Book of Abraham.  

So we have by any reasonable standard of evidence, a fraudster of one work who claims to have found golden tablets written in Reformed Egyptian and translatable by use of peep stones.  Sounds like a book we should all use to explain the deepest meaning of the cosmos.

Quote from: aileron:

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"Smith is a known fraudster.  Another of his so-called translations the LDS church has canonized is the Book of Abraham.  Old Joe claimed to translate when people could not read hieroglyphics.  Funny thing is that pieces of it turned up in the 1960's when by then we could read hieroglyphics.  It turned out to be a standard funerary text that bore absolutely no relation to what old Joe supposedly translated into the Book of Abraham.

I don't accept this argument. Because it proves nothing and disproves nothing.

Proof and disproof are dependent on the subject.  Anyone can deny things without reason and say it's not been proven.  

QuoteThere were many documents that were purchased by the Prophet. They were never found/they burned.

This is by far the dumbest apology for Smith's fraud I've ever read.  The one example we have exposes him as a fraud.  The fact that there were other documents is completely irrelevant to the point that he committed fraud in this supposed translation.

Good gravy what a childish and moronic defense.  If I'm caught printing a counterfeit $100 bill, it's no use telling the judge I had three other $100 bills in my wallet when arrested that were genuine (and all conveniently lost or destroyed).

In one word EVERYTHING! :rolleyes:

OK kiddies, let's start with the Book of Mormon
1. The book originally claimed that the Indians were all descended from Jews who left Jerusalem about 621 B.C.E. because of the imminent Babylonian captivity. Now, after several thousand edits, it claims that the BofM people were "one of many" of the people of the New World. All available DNA evidence indicates that racially the American Indians came from either Asian, Pacific islander or even some input from Early European mixtures in Asia, but none, zero, from Semitic sources.

2. The Nephites and Lamanites, the 2 Jewish groups that were opposed to each other, supposedly brought with them horses, sheep, cattle and a variety of grains and fruits. NONE of which were evident when the European explorers arrived. There was no knowledge or history of these animals among the Indians of that time.

3. None of the animals that were native to either North or South America; Mountain lions, buffalo, elk, deer, grizzly bears, jaguars, howler monkeys and so on are not mentioned.

4. The location of their landing, a place identified as a "narrow neck of land" has never been identified. The church originally located it in Central america, due to all the archaeology that was being discovered during the last century. Now they make no claims. No specific terrain formations that obviously stand out, like volcanoes, are not mentioned. Central America is home to over 40 volcanoes, some of which were known to be active during the 1900 year period that encompasses the Book of Mormon.

5. The book speaks of vast cities, numerous armies numbering in the thousands, bloody battles and so on by armed and armored forces on horseback and on foot. None of the cities described or any remnant of any battles or anything indicating what the book describes has ever been found.

6. The book mentions coinage, a monetary system, the smelting of metals-including steel, which was unknown to the Israelis of 621 BC- and the ability to mine, smelt, and forge all manner of implements and weapons. Native Americans possessed no such technology and there is no evidence it ever existed prior to the Europeans arriving. In the Holy Land, where coinage was in use for centuries, there today you can still find ancient coins in numerous locations. None in the Americas.

7. The Book of Mormon itself was not an original idea. The concept of Indians being Jewish-which was lampooned by Mel Brooks in "Blazing Saddles"- was an idea currently popular when the book was written. A book entitled "View of the Hebrews" was already in print prior to the Book of Mormon's publication. there are many parallels between to two books, oddly enough.

8. The Golden Plates from which the BofM was translated were supposed to have magically been kept in a hill that happened to be close to Joseph Smith's home. He was seen carrying a bundle under his arm which he claimed were the plates. The plates, made of gold or an alloy of gold, were supposedly about nine by six by nearly a foot thick, a bundle that would weigh 300 pounds, that he was carrying around under his arm.

9. the book was published in 1830. The First Vision, from which Joseph supposedly was told by God about the book, happened in 1820. In the intervening period he was married and applied for membership to the Methodist church. He was denied because he was known as a man of low character. The First Vision story did not come out until after the publication of the book, and his own mother, who wrote a diary of that time, never mentions it.

10. Many aspects of the BofM and characters in the book-Laban, from whom the golden plates were taken in Jerusalem- just happen to be characters in Masonic ceremonies. Joseph Smith became a Mason along with his brothers and Brigham Young during the period of time all this was happening.

(edit) Forgot to mention- the characters in the BofM only encountered 2 other groups that were not a part of their solo journey- both of which also came from Judea. There is no mention of any other tribe or group. In that period of American history, the entirety of North and South America were populated from Canada to Patagonia with millions of Native Americans, none of which were ever encountered.

I can do this without looking at any references, and I'm just gettin' started :lol:

Joseph Smith, the founder:

1. Came from a family that was known for their slothfulness and illegal behavior. Joseph Smith was tried and convicted of a crime called "money digging" which was a scam wherein he and some unscrupulous friends convinced local people that they knew the whereabouts of secret treasure, and would con them into being paid to dig for it.

2. While leading the church in Illinois, created an illegal bank by convincing his followers to contribute their life savings. He did this by showing them a bos that was supposedly full of coins, but in fact had one layer and the rest filled with rocks. He, the chosen prophet of god, then invested the money in bad land schemes and lost it all, first running from the law and then blaming it all on other people who he had coerced into signing their names to the contracts.

3. Became a polygamist first without bothering to tell his wife, until he was supposedly caught shanking his 16 year old housemaid, Fanny Alger. There is some dispute about that, but it is known he polygamously married at least ten women all under the legal marrying age, the youngest 14. She later admitted, after going to Utah with the Mormons, that he sired a child by her.
The "revelation" on polygamy happened after he began having affairs with women. He even sent men on missions and then convinced their wives at home to engage in sexual congress with him.

4. Joseph smith was imprisoned because the people of Nauvoo, Illinois, rebelling against him, published a paper denouncing him. Smith's henchmen destroyed the printing press, a direct offense against the constitutional right of freedom of the press. He also threatened the lives of everyone involved with the paper and confiscated their goods and property by force.

After his death, because of Brigham Young's position and leadership in the church, he was able to keep it together and ended up taking the Mormons to Utah.

And that is why I, Stephen Young, Brigham's Great great grandson, was born in Utah.  :-D

Quote from: "stromboli"And that is why I, Stephen Young, Brigham's Great great grandson, was born in Utah.  :-D

Regards to Barbara.

Quote from: "stromboli"And that is why I, Stephen Young, Brigham's Great great grandson, was born in Utah.  :-D

That is awesome.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Solitary"Since you asked:
Among the problems that I see with Mormonism is the fact that intelligent, experienced qualified people (often even professors at BYU) now fired from their positions and excommunicated from their church, still hang onto its claims.

There is a reason for that. Very good reason. Do you know what kind of reason?

Quote from: "Solitary"They question the claims for the Book of Mormon that it is historically true. Surely they realize that archaeologically, geographically and historically it fails every test-- but though they do not get along with the Apostles and Prophets, they still want to be Mormons.

Everybody can question this. There is a very good reason why they get fired or excommunicated.

Quote from: "Solitary"If the claims for the Book of Mormon are not true then Joseph Smith was an outright fraud.

I agree 100%

Quote from: "Solitary"How can sincere, intelligent Mormons continue to argue on behalf of a "Mother God," or other distinctly Mormon teachings?

I am not sure I understand this question?

P.S. There are many claims that BoM is false but all of them have no support.

Heavenly Mother
As Gerald Lund once put it, many members simply assume that "the Church teaches many principles which are accepted as doctrines but which the First Presidency has seen no need to declare in an official pronouncement." ("I Have a Question," Ensign, Feb. 1982, 38) While there is no reference to a Heavenly Mother within the standard works (canon) of Mormonism, it is a commonly held belief and an integral part of the traditional Mormon worldview.

References
One of the most modern explicit teachings on the matter comes from the Achieving a Celestial Marriage Manual:

"By definition, exaltation incudes the ability to procreate the family unit throughout eternity. This our Father in heaven has the power to do. His marriage partner is our mother in heaven. We are their spirit children, born to them in the bonds of celestial marriage." (p. 129)

The hymn "O My Father" (Hymns, no. 139) written by Eliza R. Snow in Nauvoo in 1843, includes the following:

When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I've completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

W. W. Phelps wrote the following letter to William Smith on December 25, 1844:
A heap of dust alone remains of thee, 'Tis all thou art and all the proud shall be," while Mormonism, from an Abel, though dead, yet speaketh; from an Elijah though translated in a fiery chariot to heaven, yet, returns in glory with Moses, and blesses Jesus at the transfiguration on the mount! O Mormonism! Thy father is God, thy mother is the Queen of heaven, and so thy whole history, from eternity to eternity, is the laws, ordinances and truth of the "Gods"-embracing the simple plan of salvation, sanctification, death, resurrection, glorification and exaltation of man, from infancy to age, from age to eternity, from simplicity to sublimity: from faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, to washing, anointing, presence of angels, the general assembly and church of the first born; to the unspeakable glory of seeing God and the Lamb, and to spirits of just men, made perfect, and to be ordained unto eternal life! (W. W. Phelps, "The Answer," letter to William Smith, December 25, 1844, Nauvoo, Il, Times and Seasons 5 (January 1): 758.

Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie wrote,
"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage,' and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.' (Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp.348-355.)" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 516)

Then apostle Gordon B. Hinckley reasoned the following in General Conference:
"Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven" (Gordon Hinckley, "Daughters of God," Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1991, p.100. See also The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.257 [which came out when he was president]).

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism includes the following about the "doctrine" of a "Mother in Heaven":
"LDS doctrine teaches that there is a Mother in Heaven as well as a Father, that Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit furthered God's plan of salvation." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:490).

And again:
"Latter-day Saints infer from authoritative sources of scripture and modern prophecy that there is a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father... Today the belief in a living Mother in Heaven is implicit in Latter-day Saint thought. Though the scriptures contain only hints, statements from presidents of the church over the years indicate that human beings have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:961)

Orson F. Whitney taught,
"We are taught that men and women, the sons and daughters of God, who were spirits in his presence, were sent here to take mortal tabernacles and undergo experiences that would in due time exalt them to the plane occupied by their Father and Mother in heaven." (Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses 4:131)

Heavenly Mother in the Bible?
Some would argue that a reference to female deity is in the Bible, namely references to the "queen of heaven" by Jeremiah. The problem of course is that such references (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-19, 25) are negative. Mormon apologist Kevin Barney responds to this matter with the following (see http://go.mrm.org/barney-on-biv (http://go.mrm.org/barney-on-biv)):

Your complaint about undermining the authority of reform prophets [like Jeremiah] is where the rubber really hits the road, and I think it's your strongest point. I knew this was going to be tough for rank and file Mormons to accept. We tend to want to read the scriptures as being univocal, without development, and if one prophet was negative on a practice then it's a bad practice and all prophets would agree.

The truth is that the winners get to write the history, and it was those who rejected Asherah who largely redacted or wrote the OT as we have it today. There is, quite frankly, a lot of political spin in the OT. I recognize that we get really nervous when we start talking about spin in the scriptures. So I don't blame anyone, including you, for not wanting to follow me there.

Fringe Views of Some Academics and Apologists
The degree to which some academic Mormons are willing to kick against basic Mormon tradition can be surprising. Paul Owen, a non-Mormon, writes (see http://go.mrm.org/owen-on-heavenly-mother (http://go.mrm.org/owen-on-heavenly-mother)),

Some Mormons understand our "heavenly parents" in terms of the Father and the Holy Spirit for example... I wasn't denying that the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is officially taught. However it has never been officially defined or interpreted in terms of God the Father having a wife (though that is commonly assumed). Some Mormons understand Heavenly Mother as the Holy Ghost, others as a reference to a feminine aspect within the being of God, and I have even seen it suggested that Jesus is the Mother figure, as the one through whom mankind was created in the image of God ("let us make man in our image" being applied to the Father and the Son)...

The LDS Church has never defined the Heavenly Mother language in a prescriptive manner [note: this is not true; see the first quote given above]. It is not an official teaching that God has a wife. The view that the "Heavenly Mother" actually refers to the feminine aspect of the being of God was advocated by Erastus Snow, himself an apostle. The language used in the statements of the First Presidency on the Origin of Man and Evolution (which vaguely speak of "the universal Father and Mother") are ambiguous enough to allow for this alternative interpretation...

I know for a fact that Roger Keller, who teaches religion at BYU, does not believe God has a wife. At least that's what he told me a few years ago. Nor does Blake Ostler (a very well known and respected Mormon theologian). It was Richard Sherlock (an LDS philosophy professor at Utah State University) whom I believe I first heard suggest the possibility that Jesus could be our heavenly mother, given his co-participation with the Father in creation ("let us make man in our image . . . So God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them"). It is interesting for instance, that in 1 Corinthians 11:3, Paul grounds the ordering of the genders in the relationality within the Trinity between the Father and the Son.

There is a strain of piety within Western Christianity that has long conceptualized Jesus as a nurturing heavenly mother figure. This is especially evident in Anselm and Julian of Norwich. So it's not like such theological moves are lacking in precedent. And yes, before someone asks, many Mormon theologians do want to be in conversation with the wider Christian theological tradition, so voices like Anselm do matter in these discussions.

As for views that would relate Heavenly Mother to the Holy Ghost, or a feminine aspect within the divine being, see Bergera, Line Upon Line, pp. 98, 106.

I don't deny that the language of Heavenly Parents and the Universal Father and Mother suggests that God has a wife. Likewise, the fact that (they teach) God the Father has a physical body suggests that he was once a man like us. But suggestions and prescribed teachings with official definitions are not exactly the same thing. When a doctrine is not officially defined, it allows LDS theology considerable room for creative engagement with the wider theological tradition. When you participate in forums like the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology (as I do most every year), and enter into open conversation with those sorts of people, who are very much insiders (not liberal LDS apostates), it becomes apparent that the boundaries of "official" Mormon doctrine are a lot more fluid and flexible than evangelical apologetic literature would convey."



Non-Mormon
Is There a Place for Heavenly Mother in Mormon Theology?: An Investigation into Discourses of Power (pdf), by Margaret Merrill Toscano (Sunstone Magazine)
Notes by Christopher Smith on "Our Heavenly Mother: Teachings and Applications," which was presented by Martin Pulido and Eric Dowdle at the SMPT Conference, May 22 2009
The King Hates the Queen, by Todd Wood
Do Mormons believe that God has a wife? (YouTube)

Mormon
"A Mother There" - A Survey of Historical Teachings about Mother in Heaven, by David L. Paulsen and Martin Pulido (BYU Studies Symposium)
Mother in Heaven (LightPlanet.com)

A Review of LDS teachings regarding a Heavenly Mother (New Cool Thang; note the ensuing discussion)

A few theories about the Divine Feminine in Mormonism (New Cool Thang)
The other Heavenly Mother hymn, by Kaimi Wenger
How To Worship Our Mother in Heaven (Without Getting Excommunicated), by Kevin Barney
Comments on BiV's Critique of My Dialogue Article, by Kevin Barney
Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV

"I've a Mother There": A Historiographical Study of Portrayals of Heavenly Mother in Mormon Discourse (MP3), by Martin Pulido and David Paulsen
Review of Paulsen and Pulido's 'A Mother There,' BYU Studies 2011, by V.H. Cassler
In Praise of Heavenly Mother, by James Olsen
Heavenly Mother in Today's Mormonism (Podcast)
Main

Eve, do you understand now? Solitary

The Mormon church claims to be led by a prophet who is the mouthpiece of God. The prophet hasn't made a prophecy this century, and last century only one; the one in 1979 that gave blacks the priesthood. That after serious pressure from a number of rights groups pointing out that the church was proselytizing places like Brazil with mixed race populations that were not allowed to hold the priesthood because they were not white. And recruiting black athletes to BYU to remain competitive in sports.

Their prophet didn't recognize or speak about the Great Depression, the  financial collapse in 2007, or any of several events, including world wars Korea, Vietnam and so on.

Aileron already mentioned the Book of Abraham. The book an "inspired translation" as mentioned was deemed to be a fraud because the papyrii from which it was "translated", thought to be lost, turned up in a museum. It has been proven a fraud by several authorities.

Joseph Smith also "translated a set of metal plates- the "Kinderhook Plates" and declared them as Nephite in origin, but they turned out to be a fraud.

Joseph Smith was a womanizing con man, period. My own ancestor, Brigham Young, for all his organizational skills, was an egotistical murdering racist who had slaves in Utah before the Civil War and supported the South in their cause initially, until the issues of territorialism and statehood cropped up.

Here is an AMA given on Reddit yesterday by Tom Philips, an ex-mormon. It will give you some insight into the religion if you want to spend the time.

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/commen ... _november/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1rajft/ama_i_have_been_asked_to_do_an_ama_on_november/)

And as always, the Mormon curtain website, if you're looking for a really big database on the church.
http://mormoncurtain.com/ (http://mormoncurtain.com/)

You are awesome Stromboli! What an interesting history you have. All the friends I had that were atheists were Mormon before accept one. Solitary

Generally speaking I regard all theists as fools who profess to believe tall tales.

But...mormonism far surpasses anything else (expect perhaps scientology) in its silliness and obvious fraud.  It was meant to be an "American" xtianity without all those foreign roots.  The fact that anyone believes such fucking drivel simply astounds me.

Quote from: "stromboli"And recruiting black athletes to BYU to remain competitive in sports.

Black Youth Unwelcom

I came across this one recently from an ex-Mormon and thought it was hilarious.  

Apparently when good ol' Joe Smith found the golden tablets, he describes carrying them in one extended arm at his side the way a schoolchild walks carrying books.

Gold is one of the most dense metals, even denser than lead.  The ex-Mormon pointed out that the tablets as described by Joe would weigh 300 pounds.  So not only was Joe a prophet, he was a damn strong one too!

Quote from: "aileron"I came across this one recently from an ex-Mormon and thought it was hilarious.  

Apparently when good ol' Joe Smith found the golden tablets, he describes carrying them in one extended arm at his side the way a schoolchild walks carrying books.

Gold is one of the most dense metals, even denser than lead.  The ex-Mormon pointed out that the tablets as described by Joe would weigh 300 pounds.  So not only was Joe a prophet, he was a damn strong one too!

Hilarious shit !

You see everyone on here knows far more about the LDS than does Eve. She/he is a fruad!

Quote from: SolitaryEve,

:-|

[quote="stromboli :twisted:

[quote="stromboli" :twisted:

QuoteOK, How do you know this?

He knows that stuff becaus he used to be part of the Mormon church just like you. He's actually mentioned that a few times.

Quote from: "Eve"How does any of this prove that BoM is not true and that J Smith is not a Prophet of God?

Using your own standards of evidence, how would you go about proving that David Koresh and Jim Jones were not prophets of God?

[quote="Plu

[quote="aileron

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"

Quote from: "Eve"How does any of this prove that BoM is not true and that J Smith is not a Prophet of God?

Using your own standards of evidence, how would you go about proving that David Koresh and Jim Jones were not prophets of God?

Exactly, So, everything what Stromboli wrote does not prove ANYTHING. It was waste of time and space.

You're missing the point.  If you can't come up with a standard of evidence that disproves Koresh and Jones as prophets of god, what does that tell you about the standard of evidence you apply to Smith?

Yadayadayada. Eve can believe anything that in her view cannot be disproven. A book that claims that horses were common in the US before Europeans landed there? Could very well be true. There still a chance we never found any of their bones right?

With these standards Eve can believe anything. Including Harry Potter. It may be Platform number 9,5 (or whatever) has just not been discovered until now.
Yet she chose to believe in the retarded nephew of the retarded nephew of judaism. Which was retarded to begin with.

Also props to Stromboli.

Quote from: aileron

Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Yadayadayada. Eve can believe anything that in her view cannot be disproven. A book that claims that horses were common in the US before Europeans landed there? Could very well be true. There still a chance we never found any of their bones right?

With these standards Eve can believe anything. Including Harry Potter. It may be Platform number 9,5 (or whatever) has just not been discovered until now.
Yet she chose to believe in the retarded nephew of the retarded nephew of judaism. Which was retarded to begin with.

Also props to Stromboli.

Sure. I can believe anything I want. But Stromboli tried to prove something and he can not prove or disprove anything about Smith or BoM. This is my point.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Yadayadayada. Eve can believe anything that in her view cannot be disproven. A book that claims that horses were common in the US before Europeans landed there? Could very well be true. There still a chance we never found any of their bones right?

With these standards Eve can believe anything. Including Harry Potter. It may be Platform number 9,5 (or whatever) has just not been discovered until now.
Yet she chose to believe in the retarded nephew of the retarded nephew of judaism. Which was retarded to begin with.

Also props to Stromboli.

Sure. I can believe anything I want. But Stromboli tried to prove something and he can not prove or disprove anything about Smith or BoM. This is my point.

In this case Stromboli has obviously got better standards of evidence than you.
Do you get scammed often? Or do you reserve your apparent standards of evidence for mormonism?

Quote from: "Eve"But Stromboli tried to prove something and he can not prove or disprove anything about Smith or BoM. This is my point.

No one can disprove anything. There can only be more and more evidence that leaves less and less room for something to be true. There is increasing evidence that makes the idea of all mythology sound ridiculous because there is such little room for it being true on any instance.

Question for you, Eve: Do you believe the story of Pandora's Box / Pandora's Jar?

Quote from: PickelledEggs

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Question for you, Eve: Do you believe the story of Pandora's Box / Pandora's Jar?

I don't

Do you believe in the story of adam and eve?

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"You're missing the point.  If you can't come up with a standard of evidence that disproves Koresh and Jones as prophets of god, what does that tell you about the standard of evidence you apply to Smith?

I don't apply anything. I am not trying to prove anything. I only respond to Stromboli that his post is waste of time.

So you don't apply anything, presumably you accept the status of Smith as a prophet of God as a matter of faith?  I'm not trying to set up anything here, just trying to understand.

[quote="P

Quote from: "aileron"So you don't apply anything, presumably you accept the status of Smith as a prophet of God as a matter of faith?  I'm not trying to set up anything here, just trying to understand.

I had a revelation that Smith is a Prophet of God. I trust(have faith) that God told me the truth.

Quote from: "Eve"Do I have a right to say "yes, I do believe."?

You live in America. You have the right to say whatever you want.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"So you don't apply anything, presumably you accept the status of Smith as a prophet of God as a matter of faith?  I'm not trying to set up anything here, just trying to understand.

I had a revelation that Smith is a Prophet of God. I trust(have faith) that God told me the truth.

Very well, I for one appreciate your honesty.  

I treat all revelations from God with equally validity.  It's the only way to be fair to all people.

This is because God is a practical joker who loves to reveal truths to some people that are incompatible with the truth he reveals to other people.  God's even managed to start quite a few wars that way.  Will his hilarious hijinks ever cease?

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"So you don't apply anything, presumably you accept the status of Smith as a prophet of God as a matter of faith?  I'm not trying to set up anything here, just trying to understand.

I had a revelation that Smith is a Prophet of God. I trust(have faith) that God told me the truth.

Really? :rollin:  :rollin:  :rollin:

Eve do you believe Satan is the brother of Jesus ? Jesus have many wives and many children?

OK, consider this. The test of a true prophet is Deut. 18:22

QuoteWhen a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

How many prophecies have failed?
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm)
There have been many failed prophecies in the history of the church. These are just Joseph Smith's.

He fails the Biblical test of a true prophet. He failed as a leader, he was a liar and a thief. Go ahead, Eve, believe in total BS, because virtually everything about the LDS church is.

[quote="stromboli" :twisted:

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "stromboli"OK, consider this. The test of a true prophet is Deut. 18:22

QuoteWhen a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

How many prophecies have failed?
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm)
There have been many failed prophecies in the history of the church. These are just Joseph Smith's.
And you ? :-D
He fails the Biblical test of a true prophet. He failed as a leader, he was a liar and a thief. Go ahead, Eve, believe in total BS, because virtually everything about the LDS church is.

Stromboli, before I respond let me ask you a question:how long where you LDS? :-k

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "stromboli"OK, consider this. The test of a true prophet is Deut. 18:22

QuoteWhen a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

How many prophecies have failed?
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm)
There have been many failed prophecies in the history of the church. These are just Joseph Smith's.
He fails the Biblical test of a true prophet. He failed as a leader, he was a liar and a thief. Go ahead, Eve, believe in total BS, because virtually everything about the LDS church is.

Stromboli, before I respond let me ask you a question:how long where you LDS? :-k

And you ?  :)

I was born a Mormon. My father was descended through Mary Ann Angell, his 2nd actual wife (after his first one died) and the matriarch of his entire family. I was raised in, steeped in and educated in it from birth.

Point: Nearly every animal mentioned in the BofM is an animal known to Joseph Smith. None of the animals- sheep, cattle, horses, and so on- were never in the New World prior to their being brought by the Europeans. Some of the animals mentioned that were "unknown" (Curaloms) fit no known description of any animal.

You are basically saying that in 1900 years, where the Nephite and Lamanite people spread over the land, they never once encountered a grizzly bear, jaguar, mountain lion or top predator or llamas or any other native animal that would have been remarkable and easy to describe.

Point: Joseph Smith is a false prophet, period. Read the list I provided previously. And that not counting the prophecies made by prophets after that were false.

Point: He demonstrably and knowingly committed illegal acts against his own followers.

Point: I was first a structural and then an aircraft welder, and I've done some blacksmithing. I know a little bit about metal. In order to acquire metal you would first of all have to mine it, then process the ore to uniform consistency, smelt it, refine it, cast or forge it, and so on. There is no evidence of any ore mining other than Native Americans looking for Gold or Silver for ornamentation, none for any other metal. A mining operation leaves a very noticeable scar on the landscape. smelters, refineries, and finishing processes all require brickwork, forges, and use massive amounts of charcoal and would require a huge investment in wood and skilled labor, which would take years to develop and require a dedicated technology. NONE of which is evident.
Arms, armor and swords especially require a great deal of industry to produce. Why is there not one, not a sword, a plowshare, a shield piece of armor, etc. to be found?The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If we can see no evidence that such operations took place, the (occams razor) assumption is that it didn't.

Point: Plants mentioned in the BofM include Barley, Figs, and wheat. All of which did not exist until the Europeans brought them.

Animals included Ass, bull, calf, cattle, cows, goat, horse, ox, sheep, sow and elephant. The Nephites were-wait for it-JEWISH. the sow is an unclean animal and would not have been brought. Oh, and by the way, there is no reference in any form to any Jewish worship. They also built temples- There is only one holy temple to the Jews- the one that was in Jerusalem. All the other animals were also brought by the Europeans.

Just to emphasize, hogs (sows) are a highly opportunistic omnivore. When they were brought by the Spanish, they quickly established themselves in the wild. There was no evidence of them prior to the Europeans.

Point: Joseph Smith, prophet of god, declared the BofM as "the most perfect book ever written"
The Tanners-Utah Lighthouse ministry- identified more than 3,000 changes/editings in the book from the original manuscript. Today it is more than that, including the new statement about the Nephites being "one of" instead of the only seed of the Native Americans.

Make all the claims and arguments you want here. But if you are serious, go to exmormon forums
http://www.exmormonforums.com/ (http://www.exmormonforums.com/) and truly test your faith. It is also a fact that church members are leaving about as fast as they enter. The church's claims of membership are BS.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "aileron"

Quote from: "Eve"How does any of this prove that BoM is not true and that J Smith is not a Prophet of God?

Using your own standards of evidence, how would you go about proving that David Koresh and Jim Jones were not prophets of God?

Exactly, So, everything what Stromboli wrote does not prove ANYTHING. It was waste of time and space.

Ho-ly cow!!! Great post Stromboli. Admittedly eve is right, it was a waste of time. Space? Not so much. Eve, the brain that occupies your skull, now that IS a waste of space.

I was involved with the LDS church for a couple years as a teen (Mormon gf). Family was very active in the church. Dad was bishop of the ward at one stage, before my time tho. Great family, well respected in the community. >>>> Fast forward 30 years >>>>
Dad gets cancer, couple years of struggle, dad dies at home in bed. His wife of 50plus years commits suicide next to him. So, when it came right down to it, at least the wife wasn't a true believer. Why make a lifelong sacrifice - temple marriage, duty to the church, all those 3 hour services on Sundays etc, just to throw it all away in the end??
My experience was that the Mormons are a close second to Scientology in the king of batshit crazy dept. Eve, calling you ignorant is the absolute nicest thing I can possibly think to say to you. Mormons like you keep that batshit crazy reputation alive and well, congrats.

When I began questioning the church in 1990 for several reasons, I set a list of criteria that the church should meet to be considered the truth, and meet the tests if effectively creates for itself. If it does not meet even one of the criteria, it should be cast into doubt.

1, The book of Mormon is the centerpiece of the religion. It must therefore, since it comes from god, be at least historically accurate and obviously correct in terms of known historic events.

2. The prophet, since the church declares that the prophet of the church is the only true spiritual leader and the mouthpiece of the church. He must meet all of the "truth" aspects, simply that his prophecies, no matter who he is, should be provable as true, and not contradict previous prophetic utterances.  

3. Joseph Smith. He must be as the church portrayed him, a humble farm boy who was worthy to be the vessel of the church's foundation and leadership, and be true to the way he is painted historically by the church.

4. Continuity. god is a perfect being; He should therefore, because of his knowledge of future events, be able to craft a doctrine and be able to thwart any actions by the Adversary to stop it. Doctrine declared as eternal and inviolate (polygamy, for instance) should stand against any test.

5. Completely honest and aboveboard in its dealings. I knew going in that it failed at this from events that led up to my questioning the church.

If the church failed in even one aspect it was suspect. Even one. It fails in every category.

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

:-?  :roll:   :popcorn:  Solitary

Now, does anyone doubt that she is one of the best troll: feigned denial accompanied with subtle inflammatory accusation, just to get you frustrated and riled you up at the same time.

The problem with mormonism is that it's full of mormons.

Would it be out of line to ask to see Eve's magic underpants?  :rollin:

http://www.bing.com/images/results.aspx ... edIndex=19 (http://www.bing.com/images/results.aspx?q=testimony+in+Mormon+religion.&form=MSNH14&refig=fb569d1213dc46fda5d2acb90d9d0b8d&pq=testimony+in+mormon+religion.&sc=0-16&sp=-1&qs=n&sk=#view=detail&id=63FB65EEC36444D475880B086D62A61DC604CCCE&selectedIndex=19)


 :roll:  :rollin:  :rollin:  :rollin:  :lol:  #-o  :roll:  Solitary

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

QuoteEx-Mormon Testimony

Here is the eye-opening testimony from a former Mormon elder, Todd K. Olson, now studying to be a Christian minister (as of 2011):

I spent my church life as a Mormon before I knew the Lord's grace. My whole being is the desire to serve the Lord Jesus beyond my human abilities—even from my childhood. When I was 16 years of age, on my own I read the entire Holy Bible in 1 year. But my Mormon background deceived me for years. I thought I was following God. I served a two-year mission for the Mormon Church. I was a District Missionary for about a year of my 2-year mission. I was an Elder and served as the director of reaching out to backslidden members of the Mormon faith for about two years. I taught Sunday school to 7-8 year old children for 1 year.

 I taught college group Bible study for 1 year. I was District Home Teacher-Leader while attending B.Y.U. Idaho. I have also on occasion, when asked by local Christian churches, to present the good things about my Mormon background along with the unbiblical facts of the Mormon faith—many of which are contrary to God's Word. I have recently finished my 2-year Associate's Degree in theology through Slidell Baptist Seminary and will continue with my studies there.

Make no mistake about this. Mormonism is a cult. Masonic traditions fill the Mormon temples. Cultic symbols referring to Satan are engraved on the outside of the Salt Lake Temple. Mormon missionaries teach from the Bible to persuade new converts to join. But after joining they are taught to study The Book of Mormon and other Mormon books with less emphasis on the Holy Bible. I know the Holy Bible is a decoy to the Mormon faith. If the Holy Bible contradicts the Mormon scriptures, the Holy Bible is wrong!

Mormons claim to have a Prophet and 12 Apostles who have seen and visited with Christ on many occasions. (These men are the leaders of the church that serve until they die.) The Holy Spirit is non-important in Mormonism because they have the Prophet who visits Jesus Christ in one of their temples often. When the Prophet speaks he overrides any scripture, even their own books.

In Genesis 3:5 when Satan says you will become gods Mormons believe they can become a God! But a woman in the Mormon Church who wants to become a goddess has to have a righteous man call them from the grave to enter into heaven, in which they will rule over their own planet. Jesus Christ was not born of a virgin in the Mormon faith. God the Father came and had physical sexual intercourser with Mary, who in turn conceived their Jesus!

Mormons have a lot of other weird beliefs. For example, they believe Joseph Smith was visited by Elijah who gave him the keys for genealogy and baptism for the dead. Here's another one: They believe that American Indians are of Hebrew or Middle Eastern descent, but DNA analysis has proven this idea to be false.

I came out of Mormonism through a faithful Christian co-worker who wrote Bible verses on small pieces of paper and would hand them to me for over 5 years. I became really mad at this co-worker. I was going to prove him wrong! I studied Mormon doctrine versus the Bible, and I saw my Mormon testimony crumbling before my eyes. I got on my knees and asked God to forgive me! By His word and the Blood of Jesus of the Bible I knew God had forgiven me!

I discovered, contrary to what I believed as a Mormon, that there is only one God who is the creator of all (Isaiah 43:7, 10-12, 21, 25, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:5-8, Isaiah 46:9).

I incorrectly believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. As a Mormon, I understood that the fulfillment of the return of Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6) was Joseph Smith. But Jesus clearly taught that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of this prophecy (Matthew 11:13-15, 17:10-13, Mark 9:11-13, Luke 1:13-17).

I did not know how important the blood of Jesus was to my salvation, which I discovered through such passages as Revelation 1:5-6. Jesus' blood washes me clean! We are to give God the Glory. We are not to set ourselves up to be glorified as Mormons do, even though Mormons will deny it! Mormons believe they will become a God and be worshiped as such!

Matthew 6:33 teaches us to seek first the kingdom of God. Mormons do not seek the kingdom of God first! They seek their own understanding or the understanding of their Prophet. Mormons do not believe they need God's righteousness and they believe that people are basically good, which is in direct contradiction to what Christianity teaches!

Remember Mormons have not put their trust in the Jesus of the Bible (Romans 5)! Mormons do not believe in justification by faith and total access through Jesus alone. They still need their Prophet! But salvation is a FREE GIFT! By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous (Romans 5:19). Everything is by and through Jesus Christ. We are to glorify Jesus not us. It is not about us! The Mormon faith is a "me" Faith!

It was Jesus that freed my soul not a church, not by my own works, but by Gods free gift to those who call upon the very name of Jesus. That's how simple it is.

When speaking with Mormons, I would challenge them with the Bible verses above and also these questions:

Is your emphasis on Joseph Smith being a true prophet or salvation through Jesus Christ?

Do you find yourself good enough by your works for salvation?

Is your church going to save you or is the blood of Jesus?

Do you depend on The Holy Spirit to teach you or your Prophet?

If God preserved The Book of Mormon don't you think he preserved the Holy Bible in the same way?

Here are some additional verses to share with Mormons: Isaiah 14:12-15, Matthew 1:23, 10:32-38, 6:33, 16:18, 17:11-12, Luke 17:21, 23:39-43, John 3:16-18, 4:24, 16:13, Acts 2:47, 16:31-34, Romans 1:20-23, 2:11, 3:10-12, 23-24, 4:2-5, 5:1-21, 8:2-3, 8:14-16, 10:13, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, 2 Corinthians 11:2-4, 11:12-15, Galatians 1:8-9, 2:16-21, 3:21-29, Ephesians 2:7-10, 4:30, 18-22, Philippians 4:13, 1 Timothy 1:11-17, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 1:1-2, 9:22, 10:19, 11:1-40, 1 Peter 1:3-6. And from the Book of Mormon—2 Nephi 11:7.

I can't wait to hear the response to this.  :popcorn:  Solitary

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Would it be out of line to ask to see Eve's magic underpants?  :rollin:

(//http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/MagicG.jpg) (//http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/MagicG.jpg.html)

Quote from: "josephpalazzo"

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Would it be out of line to ask to see Eve's magic underpants?  :rollin:

[ Image (//http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/MagicG.jpg.html) ]

oh. That's hot.  :lol:  :rollin:

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"

Quote from: "josephpalazzo"

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Would it be out of line to ask to see Eve's magic underpants?  :rollin:

[ Image (//http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/MagicG.jpg.html) ]

oh. That's hot.  :lol:  :rollin:

More like gag me than hot. One of the best days of my life was when I took them off and burned them.

[

Quote from: "Eve"My favorite Judge Judy always says:" if something DOESN'T MAKE SENSE it is NOT true".

Unless it's a religion, apparently.  :rollin:

Eeeeeeeevvvvvvveeee! :Hangman:  :Hangman:

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Todd K. Olson"Here's another one: They believe that American Indians are of Hebrew or Middle Eastern descent, but DNA analysis has proven this idea to be false.

FALSE

False that they believe AI are of ME descent or false that DNA contradicts that?

Quote from: "pato15"

Quote from: "Eve"My favorite Judge Judy always says:" if something DOESN'T MAKE SENSE it is NOT true".

Unless it's a religion, apparently.  :rollin:

And one of the craziest Mormonism. :wink:

"14 Fundamentals of Following the Prophet" by Ezra Taft Benson (Mormon prophet)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... mormonism/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/04/08/the-14-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet-of-mormonism/)

QuoteThe prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.
The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.
The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
The prophet may be involved in civic matters.
The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency — the highest quorum in the Church.
The prophet and the presidency — the living prophet and the First Presidency — follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

This you can debate on for a week. The Manifesto that ended polygamy was first thought to be not a prophecy, even though it was uttered by the church president. Later he insisted it was. Brigham Young was clearly racist, owning slaves prior to the Civil War and siding with the South. When is the prophet a prophet and when is he just a man?
Brigham Young:

QuoteBrigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

so the manifesto, issued by a church president contradicts a previous president, who is right? Get the point?

Doctrine and Covenants section 132, the Polygamy doctrine, is still in the book and was never officially denounced, only "superceded" as some might say. The FLDS and other polygamist groups can rightly claim that they are by doctrine correct for that reason. That is why polygamy can hide in communities among "orthodox" Mormons, because they tacitly approve of it.

Confusing, eh?  :-D

Quote from: "Eve"What is cult? and what is wrong with cult? Every religion is cult.

So close yet so far...

Wow. Looks like we've unearthed a raisin cake since I've been gone.

Another prophetic utterance gone bad:

QuoteMay 14, 1961 - Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith announces to stake conference in Honolulu:
"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it."
Smith, the Twelve's president and next in succession as LDS President, adds:
"The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."
In May 1962, he privately instructs that this view be taught to "the boys and girls in the Seminary System."

On 20 July 1969 U.S. Astronauts are first men to walk on moon. Six months later Joseph Fielding Smith becomes church president.

And Joseph Smith:

QuoteAccording to a Mormon-friendly and official Church-published source, Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited by people that dressed like Quakers. With Philo Dibble, a close associate with Joseph Smith, as his source, Oliver B. Huntington wrote with significant detail:

"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could 'See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see"1
Huntington was quoted in the Young Woman's Journal, which "was adopted as the official magazine for the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement Association in 1897."2

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

Quote from: "Eve"There is no evidence that Smith actually ever said this.

There is considerable hearsay evidence that he said it.  Hearsay evidence is not the same as "no evidence".

Quote from: "Eve"My favorite Judge Judy always says:" if something DOESN'T MAKE SENSE it is NOT true".

Ain't that the truth!!! :rollin:

Quote from: "Eve"WOW! Did you forget already? A Prophet is only then a Prophet when he is acting as such. The rest of the time he is just a man.

What fanciful games I miss out on in my irreligiousity.   :rolleyes:

*puts a hat on a horse*
Listen horse, you're a super horse now.  But only when you're wearing that hat.  And only on Wednesdays.  But on any Wesnesday, you're this town's sovereign and your body language will be interpreted and carried out by the townsfolk.  Do you understand?
*horse stares blankly*
Good.

Brigham Young:

Quote"What man or woman on earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens? The success which has attended me in my presidency is owing to the blessings and mercy of the Almighty . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 127).

He is saying that he is infallible, and that what he says is sanctioned by god. So if in retrospect anything he says has to be true; if not, then we must consider him a false prophet.

If Joseph F. Smith makes an utterance about future events of a dramatic nature in public to an audience that is then published and gets it wrong, that does not qualify as an opinion. He is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God. If such utterances are made and they are patently false, then we must consider him suspect, if not a false prophet.

It is called the big picture. Try looking at that.

The Kirtland Safety Society and J. Smith:

QuoteWarren Parrish, who had been an officer in the bank and had apostatized from the Church, made this statement: "I have listened to him [i.e. Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the AUDIBLE VOICE OF GOD, INSTRUCTED HIM TO ESTABLISH A BANKING-ANTI BANKING INSTITUTION, who like Aaron's rod SHALL SWALLOW UP ALL OTHER BANKS (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins." (Painesville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 297)

QuoteWilford Woodruff, who remained true to the Church and became the fourth President, confirmed the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation concerning the bank. Under the date of January 6, 1837, he recorded the following in his journal: "I also herd [sic] President Joseph Smith, jr., declare in the presence of F. Williams, D. Whitmer, S. Smith, W. Parrish, and others in the Deposit office that HE HAD RECEIVED THAT MORNING THE WORD OF THE LORD UPON THE SUBJECT OF THE KIRTLAND SAFETY SOCIETY. He was alone in a room by himself and he had not only [heard] the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an AUDIBLE VOICE. He did not tell us at that time what the Lord said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well." ("Wilford Woodruff's Journal," January 6, 1837, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 296)

Quote"Construction of the temple had temporarily boosted the economy of Kirtland, but after the dedication the economy declined as poor converts arrived in ever increasing numbers. The old settlers attempted to keep them out of Kirtland by economic pressures, but the Mormon population increased twentyfold while the landholdings only quadrupled. In November 1836 Joseph and other church leaders drew up articles for a bank to provide capital for investments. It was a desperate gamble. Oliver Cowdery went to Philadelphia for plates to print bank notes, and Orson Hyde went to the legislature in Columbus with a petition for a bank license. It was refused. Oliver returned with plates for the Kirtland Safety Society Bank, but Orson Hyde came back without a charter. The plates were so expensive that they printed some specie anyway, writing in "Anti" before the word "Bank" and "ing" after it. The notes read, "Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company," and the paper passed as legal tender from a joint-stock company. At first the money circulated wildly. When merchants and businessmen who were more sophisticated than the Mormons began to redeem their notes, Joseph could see that a run would ruin the bank. After one month he and Sidney Rigdon resigned as officers but the bank failed. This affected Joseph's status.

    People who were convinced that Joseph had intended a swindle at the outset attacked him verbally and threatened him physically. This disruption forced Joseph to leave the city frequently....

    In April 1837 Joseph went into hiding without seeing Emma before he left.

 

Quote"If the bank needed a final blow to shatter what little prestige it still held among the faithful, it received it when Warren Parrish resigned as cashier, left the church, and began openly to describe the banking methods of the prophet. Parrish was later accused of absconding with $25,000, but if he took the sum it must have been in WORTHLESS BANK NOTES, since that amount of specie in the vaults would have saved the bank, at least during Joseph's term as cashier." (No Man Knows My History, page 198)

    "The toppling of the Kirtland bank loosed a hornets' nest. Creditors swarmed in upon Joseph armed with threats and warrants. He was terribly in debt. There is no way of knowing exactly how much he and his leading elders had borrowed, since the loyal Mormons left no itemized account of their own claims. But the local non-Mormon creditors whom he could not repay brought a series of suits against the prophet which the Geauga county court duly recorded. These records tell a story of trouble that would have demolished the prestige and broken the spirit of a lesser man.

    "Thirteen suits were brought against him between June 1837 and April 1839, to collect sums totaling nearly $25,000. The damages asked amounted to almost $35,000. He was arrested seven times in four months, and his followers managed heroically to raise the $38,428 required for bail. Of the thirteen suits only six were settled out of court-about $12,000 out of the $25,000. In the other seven the creditors either were awarded damages or won them by default.

    "Joseph had many additional debts that never resulted in court action. Some years later he compiled a list of still outstanding Kirtland loans, which amounted to more than $33,000. If one adds to these the two great loans of $30,000 and $60,000 borrowed in New York and Buffalo in 1836, it would seem that the Mormon leaders owed to non-Mormon individuals and firms well over $150,000." (No Man Knows My History, pp. 199-202)

This is your founding prophet, Joseph Smith, in action. The bank was founded based on his backed up statement that he received a message from God.

The bank failed, Joseph Smith ran for cover, and after all the dust settled, ended up owing thousands. He previously had absconded from Missouri partly because he left some bad debts behind. I once did a tally on what J.S. owed in bad debts, and it was over $100,000 in 1835 money. That would be about a million or so today.

J.S., a true prophet of god, making continual bad financial decisions and bad judgment, acting in numerous illegal and immoral ways, wedding and sleeping with underage women, and so on. Follow the prophet.

OH, BY THE WAY:

QuoteBrigham Young said you must confess Joseph Smith as a prophet of God in order to be saved.
"...and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

You can't be saved unless you confess J.S. as a prophet of God. Millions of Xtians will fry in Hell.

Some quotes from B.Y.:
http://carm.org/brigham-young-quotes (http://carm.org/brigham-young-quotes)

I spent 2 years studying this forwards and backwards before I left the church, and have kept up with it since. It's called the "preponderance of evidence," the big picture.

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

If any prophet of the Mormon church has spoken in error and then retracted it with a statement saying so, please indicate. The prophet is the mouthpiece of God. He is continually prompted by the Holy Spirit. To say that he can make blatantly false or incorrect statements about future events merely because he wasn't acting in the capacity of a prophet is nothing but a copout the church uses to cover their tails.

QuoteBrigham Young said you can't get to the highest heaven without Joseph Smith's consent.
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

....so much for Jesus.

Back to the Book of Mormon:

Quote2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
False: Men exist without Adam's fall

Birth of Jesus
Alma 7:10    And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
CONTRADICTS Matt. 2:1, Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea   Alma 7:10 contradicts the Bible in Matt. 2:1

Cimeter (Scimitar)
Mosiah9:16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows, with swords, and with cimeters, and with clubs, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons which we could invent, and I and my people did go forth against the Lamanites to battle. (See also Enos 1:20; Mosiah 10:8; Alma 2:12; 27:29; 43:18,20,37; 44:8; 60:2; Helaman 1:14)
Scimitars (Curved Swords) didn't exist until the 500's.   200-187 B.C.

Elephants
Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.
Elephants weren't in America at the time of the BOM   

Honey Bees
Ether 2:3   And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
Honey Bees were introduced to the Americas by the Spanish

God Indwells the Righteous
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
 CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."   BOM contradicts D&C

Horses
1 Nephi 18:25   And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. (Horses see 2 Nephi 12:7; 2 Nephi 15:28; Enos 1:21; Alma 18:9,10,12; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22; 4:4; 6:1; 21:14; Ether 9:19; )
Horses didn't exist in America until the 16th Century   590-589 BC

Steel
1 Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. (See also 1 Neph 16:18; 2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9)
The Jews didn't have steel at that time.   600-592 B.C.

Salvation
2 Nephi 25:23   For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do
Salvation by works, not by Grace; disagrees with Christian belief

Silk
Alma 4:6   And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.
Jews didn't have silk then.   The Jews didn't have silk at that time   86-83 B.C.

The Book of Mormon was translated through the power of the Holy Spirit with J.S. supposedly holding a hat to his face with a magic stone inside, that showed the words as they appeared, and spoken to his secretary outside a curtain. Much of the BofM contains rote, sections of Isaiah, oddly enough.

So... almighty all powerful God speaking to his prophet couldn't make steel into metal, so the church has to compensate by saying it wasn't really steel. And it wasn't really Silk, it was something else. Because God can't
manage, so the church has to come up with an excuse.

These are just a few mistakes. There are many.

Consider the following:

Basic technologies once found, are hard to destroy. I can give you a long list of examples, from basic metallurgy to mining techniques to metalworking, forging and so on. The ability to first make steel in any form of abundance required what we now call the Bessemer process, but there were earlier versions that involved using coke and forging iron in high heat forges that allowed the charcoal to mix with iron.

But go back further. The period of history mostly covered by the BofM is the Bronze Age; assuming that a small band of people would within themselves carry the knowledge and technology to, from scratch, build what would have to be an industrial level of metalworking, they would have to know how to mine and manufacture using all the craft and technology of that age; there would be remnants.

They also had the wheel, supposedly. That is as basic a technology as then existed. Native Americans of Columbus' day had no knowledge of any such skills, nor is there any evidence they ever did. They also did not have the wheel, because it would be fairly useless without miles of paced roads to go with it.

There were no roads capable of using wheeled vehicles.

No technology, no knowledge, no hieroglyphics, written languages, books and so on. All of the known technology of that time in the Holy Land and no trace, nothing.

The preponderance of evidence. The big picture.

Here is a peek behind the curtain of mormonism. Things they dont want you to know...

http://mormoncurtain.com/ (http://mormoncurtain.com/)

More on the Book of Mormon...
The plates were written in what J.S. called "reformed Egyptian:

QuoteThe Book of Mormon uses the term "reformed Egyptian" in only one verse, Mormon 9:32, which says that "the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, [were] handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech" and that "none other people knoweth our language."

What the scholars say:

QuoteStandard language reference works contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian".[3] No non-Mormon scholars acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or a "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. For instance, in 1966, John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, wrote, "From time to time there are allegations that picture writing has been found in America... In no case has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize these characters as Egyptian hieroglyphs. From our standpoint there is no such language as 'reformed Egyptian'."[10] Klaus Baer, another Egyptologist at the University of Chicago, called the characters of the "Caractors" document nothing but "doodlings".[11] An early-twentieth-century scholar said that the "Caractors" document looked more like "deformed English."[12] Anthropologist Michael D. Coe of Yale University, an expert in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican studies, has written, "Of all the peoples of the pre-Columbian New World, only the ancient Maya had a complete script."[13

The Torah of the Hebrews were written in either Hebrew or Aramaic on lambskins. There was a specific process developed for copying and recopying the scrolls to preserve them. Why would the Israelis keep a "secret language known only, apparently, to the Nephites? Secondly, with the supposed abundance of sheep available, why would they go to the trouble of creating metal plates- which would require many times the labor- for that purpose? Why would the Nephites or any Jews hang on to the language of their captors 600 years later?

AND....
1 Nephi 2:7;
"And it came to pass he built an altar of stones, and made an offering to the Lord"
(this from a Jewish source) Individual altars for offerings and sacrifices were forbidden even before the Temple of Solomon was erected, and centralized worship was the norm. This would have been known to any Jew at that time. This would indicate the writer did not live during that period of time.

AAND....
...."while we journeyed in the wilderness up to the land of Jerusalem, to obtain the record of the Jews...."
1 Nephi 5,6

"Jews" did not exist as a group until much later when the other tribes were dispersed and only the Judeans remained. The term "Jew" is not used by Israelites, but non Jews. Every Israelite knew their birthright and their genealogy. The holding of land and their titles was based on it. There would have been no need to go after any such records, because each tribe and household had their own.

I can do this for days, Eve. keep it coming.

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

With all the things Joseph Smith apparently never said, I'm beginning to think the guy was a mute.

[

Name a few things he did say, and give us the evidence that he said them, and I'll believe you.

Quote from: PluName a

Prove that he wrote it, and not someone else.

Quote from: PluProve

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"Name a few things he did say, and give us the evidence that he said them, and I'll believe you.

Everything that was written by his own hand and we still have it in archives.
P.S. Oh, and I don't need you to believe me. :-D
P.P.S. Evidence or no evidence your thinking is still wrong:
he didn't say that or this isNOT =  he is mute

Eve were the evidence of all this? :wink:

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"Prove that he wrote it, and not someone else.

OK, let's say he never wrote. Let's say I can not prove.
But it doesn't change fact that your thinking is still WRONG :-D

he didn't say this or that is NOT = he is mute.

If you can't prove he ever said something, he's a mute. That seems pretty simple to me.

Quote from: Plu

QuoteP.S. Let's say Smith was mute. So what? What was your point exactly?

You follow his words, but he hasn't ever spoken any. And you call my logic stupid  :roll:

Quote from: "Plu"

QuoteP.S. Let's say Smith was mute. So what? What was your point exactly?

But you can't even prove he wrote those things, and you still follow those words. That's silly.

Ladies and gentlemen Eve is 3 weeks old !

Quote from: "Eve"I follow what is written.

On bended knee, no less.  And apparently, held unquestionably.  All that time and effort preaching it, and not a single second checking if any of it is actually true.  What a life.

Quote from: "Plu"But you can't even prove he wrote those things, and you still follow those words. That's silly.

1)Nobody else

Quote from: "leo"Ladies and gentlemen Eve is 3 weeks old !

Quote from: "Hydra009"blah-blah-blah

Quote from: "stromboli"Back to the Book of Mormon:

Quote2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
False: Men exist without Adam's fall

Birth of Jesus
Alma 7:10    And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
CONTRADICTS Matt. 2:1, Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea   Alma 7:10 contradicts the Bible in Matt. 2:1

Cimeter (Scimitar)
Mosiah9:16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows, with swords, and with cimeters, and with clubs, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons which we could invent, and I and my people did go forth against the Lamanites to battle. (See also Enos 1:20; Mosiah 10:8; Alma 2:12; 27:29; 43:18,20,37; 44:8; 60:2; Helaman 1:14)
Scimitars (Curved Swords) didn't exist until the 500's.   200-187 B.C.

Elephants
Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.
Elephants weren't in America at the time of the BOM   

Honey Bees
Ether 2:3   And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
Honey Bees were introduced to the Americas by the Spanish

God Indwells the Righteous
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
 CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."   BOM contradicts D&C

Horses
1 Nephi 18:25   And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. (Horses see 2 Nephi 12:7; 2 Nephi 15:28; Enos 1:21; Alma 18:9,10,12; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22; 4:4; 6:1; 21:14; Ether 9:19; )
Horses didn't exist in America until the 16th Century   590-589 BC

Steel
1 Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. (See also 1 Neph 16:18; 2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9)
The Jews didn't have steel at that time.   600-592 B.C.

Salvation
2 Nephi 25:23   For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do
Salvation by works, not by Grace; disagrees with Christian belief

Silk
Alma 4:6   And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.
Jews didn't have silk then.   The Jews didn't have silk at that time   86-83 B.C.

The Book of Mormon was translated through the power of the Holy Spirit with J.S. supposedly holding a hat to his face with a magic stone inside, that showed the words as they appeared, and spoken to his secretary outside a curtain. Much of the BofM contains rote, sections of Isaiah, oddly enough.

So... almighty all powerful God speaking to his prophet couldn't make steel into metal, so the church has to compensate by saying it wasn't really steel. And it wasn't really Silk, it was something else. Because God can't
manage, so the church has to come up with an excuse.

These are just a few mistakes. There are many.

Anyone else notice Eve didn't even attempt to refute the above quote? Factual evidence is just so inconvenient when one clutches a fable.

Ladies and gents, welcome to the mind of a Mormon.... to continue.......

1 Nephi 18:25 "beasts in the forests of every kind both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, the goat and the wild goat and all manner of wild animals for the use of men"

Ox is a neutered bull used as a dray animal to pull wagons and plows. Apparently the Nephite version came pre-neutered.  :-D

The goat and the wild goat?  :-k
 cows, asses and horses were nonexistent in the Americas before the Spanish arrived.

No Native American tribe ever succeeded in domesticating wild animals with the exception of dogs and turkeys by the Aztecs.

Nephi the superman
2 Nephi, 5:15; "....I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner wood, and of brass, and of steel, of gold, of silver and of precious ores, which were in great abundance"

Really? Great abundance where? No evidence of any mining. You do not walk around and pick gold up off the ground. As stated earlier, the mining, smelting, refining and working of metal takes an industrial level of commitment. We are talking about two families, the Ishmaelites and Lehi's children. A total number at best of a few dozen. Metalworking alone would involve a majority of men, then consider every other aspect of surviving in the new world, dealing with predators, foraging for food and so on.

So Nephi apparently was a skilled builder, a master of mining and refining metals, a carpenter, a lumberjack- and apparently at some point conjugated a supply of silkworms, along with the skill of removing the thread from the cocoons to make silk. Oh yeah, that means someone in the group is a master of loom making.

Any of the skills described individually takes years of learning. Jesus was just a damn carpenter; gee, what a punk compared to Nephi. Got to admit, the dude had skills.

2 Nephi 5:16; "And I Nephi, (if you read the book, he says that a lot :-D )did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon, save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found on the land."

OK, so we went from an abundance of precious things to a dearth of them, and 30 or so people built a replica of Solomon's Temple, which took 7 years and a 180,330 people to build. And as I previously mentioned, the only temple that the Israelis built was in Jerusalem and only on one spot, the Temple Mount.

2 Nephi 10:3; "Wherefore, I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ-for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name..."

Jesus is the Greek version of Jeshua or Joshua, which was Christ's name. Christ is a title, the Latinized version of messiah. His name is Jesus the Christ, or messiah. Stupid angel anyhow.  :axe

I'm getting writer's cramp here. I've got a volume of notes on the LDS religion, and I haven't even cracked a book yet. More to come.

Eve, THE BANK FAILED. The bank God commanded J.S. to create, the bank that would swallow up all other banks, that was printing worthless and illegal specie and was never chartered by the government to begin with.

So tell me, was this just a bad decision by J.S. not acting in the role of the prophet? with him running rather than standing up to the charges, and even before that absconding and leaving debts in Missouri?

so all of the separate and individual accounts, all the witness statements don't matter, just hearsay.

All of the problems with the Book of Mormon, disregard.

All of the false prophecies of J.S. and misstatements by other prophets, disregard.

Ladies and gents, welcome to the mind of a Mormon.

More to come.

Quote from: goodwithoutgod

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

Eve there were no elephants at the time of Noah even if Noah existed and that is doubtful. Elephants died out in the Americas over 10,000 years ago, longer than YOU bible idiots thinks that the earth is old.
Mastadons existed briefly during the early part of the Clovis age, the onset of humans in the Americas. It is believed that humans caused the extinction of the mastadons or American paciderm.
Take a fucking science class dumbass!

Quote from: "mykcob4"Eve there were no elephants at the time of Noah even if Noah existed and that is doubtful. Elephants died out in the Americas over 10,000 years ago, longer than YOU bible idiots thinks that the earth is old.
Mastadons existed briefly during the early part of the Clovis age, the onset of humans in the Americas. It is believed that humans caused the extinction of the mastadons or American paciderm.
Take a fucking science class dumbass!

Buuutttt . Eve doesn't care about facts and truth.

The First Vision(s)

 

Quote"Our entire case as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious first vision....nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and his beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leqads to the path of salvation and eternal life."
President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1998, pp. 70-71

. Why didn't J. S. write the "official" version of the first vision? In fact, the Joseph Smith history as written in the Pearl of Great Price was written by a scribe, then went unpublished for years. There are other earlier versions of the first vision story in J. S.'s own handwriting, but they are not considered official or used by the church.

If the official first vision story was so important, why did it go unpublished until 1842? (12 years after the founding of the church) Smith supposedly had the vision in 1820. Yet it took over seven private revisions and another 22 years to be published.

If J.S. was told in 1820 that all churches were an abomination, then why did he try to join the Methodist Church  in June of 1828?[/b] Records show that in 1828 J.S. applied for membership in his wife's methodist Church. He also joined Methodist classes taught there. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, IL. details Smith's activity in the church in 1828. April 30, 1879, pg. 1; May 21, 1879 pg.1; July 2, 1879, pg. 1)

If J. S. saw God in 1820, why did he pray in his room in 1823 to "find out if a supreme being did exist?"In the first history of Mormonism from 1835 written under Joseph Smith's Directionit says the night of September 1823 J.S. began praying in his bed to learn "all the important information, if a supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him"
(LDS Periodical Messenger and the Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Feb. 1835)

The 1835 history does not mention the first vision.

In 1833 the Church published the Book of Commandments, the forerunner of the present Doctrine and Covenants. No reference was made to the first vision, although several references were made to the BofM and the circumstances of its origin.

I have a lot more, but you get the idea. The first vision account was fabricated well after the fact and well after the Church was founded.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"But you can't even prove he wrote those things, and you still follow those words. That's silly.

1)Nobody else claims authorship.
2)I follow them because I KNOW they are true.

I'm claiming ownership. You actually fell into my trap, I wrote the Book of Mormon before you were born and it's hilarious to see how many people actually think it's real  :lol:

Quote from: "Plu"

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"But you can't even prove he wrote those things, and you still follow those words. That's silly.

1)Nobody else claims authorship.
2)I follow them because I KNOW they are true.

I'm claiming ownership. You actually fell into my trap, I wrote the Book of Mormon before you were born and it's hilarious to see how many people actually think it's real  :lol:

Eve believes she knows the truth because God speaks to her. You won't get anywhere with such a delusional person.

Quote from: "Plu"I'm claiming ownership. You actually fell into my trap, I wrote the Book of Mormon before you were born and it's hilarious to see how many people actually think it's real  :lol:

sure, old man.  :-D it was very easy to fall into your trap

[quote="

I can easily run this thread to 20 pages all by myself. There is much more to come.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"I'm claiming ownership. You actually fell into my trap, I wrote the Book of Mormon before you were born and it's hilarious to see how many people actually think it's real  :lol:

sure, old man.  :-D it was very easy to fall into your trap

Yeah, I trap religious people, so the bar isn't very high :)

Quote from: leo

Quote from: Plu[

Quote from: stromboli:twisted:

QuoteIf there is no evidence of horses or elephants it doesn't mean they can not be found one day. So why should I care about?

And that's why I'm a firm believer in dragons and unicorns :roll:

Quote from: "Eve"But how about THINKING on your own once in a while?  :-D

I would say that stromboli is very capable of thinking on his own. In fact most of us on this forum are pretty good at thinking our own thoughts. It's why we are atheists in the first place.

You should try thinking on your own. It might be a good exercise to try. Thinking, in general, is good for you.

Quote from: "josephpalazzo"

Quote from: "Plu"

Quote from: "Eve"1)Nobody else claims authorship.
2)I follow them because I KNOW they are true.

I'm claiming ownership. You actually fell into my trap, I wrote the Book of Mormon before you were born and it's hilarious to see how many people actually think it's real  :lol:

Eve believes she knows the truth because God speaks to her. You won't get anywhere with such a delusional person.

If you can't show convincing evidence that god exists then he is nothing but imaginary, and you know what happens to people who claimed that an imaginary person talks to them, so if I were you, I would be very careful with your claim that God speaks to you.

See: http://hubpages.com/hub/the_world_of_a_schizophrenic (http://hubpages.com/hub/the_world_of_a_schizophrenic)

More on the first vision:

The first vision, according to the modern church, is the most important event since the advent of Jesus Christ himself.

Quote"The Times and Seasons ( a church periodical) began publication in 1839, but as indicated above, the story of the first vision was not told in its pages until 1842. From all this it would appear the general church membership did not receive information about the first vision until the 1840s and that the story did not hold the prominent place in Mormon thought that it does today" (Dialogue of Mormon Thought, Vol. 1, no.3, pp.31-32

According to the "official" story, Joseph Smith told his mother his first vision story. Although Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith Jr., wrote a lot of detials about her son during the 1820's, in her history of Joseph Smith's life, the first vision WAS NOT MENTIONED in the extensive biography she wrote about her son.

The only element of the first vision story that Lucy mentions is religious revivals around Palmyra, yet she dates them in 1823, not 1820. Historical records of the time corroborate Lucy Mack Smith's dating of revivals in 1823 and none in Palmyra in 1820.

Smithsonian letter regarding the Book of Mormon:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 0200/posts (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2210200/posts)

Quote1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archaeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World -- probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age -- in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.

4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time the early big game (sic) hunters spread across the Americas.)

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked used (sic) in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.

7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archaeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archaeological remains in Mexico and archaeological remains in Egypt.

8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.

9. There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum, of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.

SIL - 76 Rev. May 1980

The Smithsonian Institute is one of the prestigious organizations concerning historic and archaeological information, as well as many other scientific fields.

A note on meteorite iron: It is found in a lot of areas, but seldom in amounts much larger than a human fist. It is different than "ordinary" steel because it is often naturally alloyed with Nickel, due to exposure to conditions of extreme heat. It was valued by early metal smiths and was used for only the finest of weapons. Jim Bowie's knife was supposedly made from a chunk of it, but no one knows for sure. It requires a high heat forge to make anything of real use out of it because of the Nickel content. It would not have been of significant use to primitive people.

The National Geographic letter regarding the Boob of Mormon:
http://mit.irr.org/national-geographic- ... -of-mormon (http://mit.irr.org/national-geographic-society-statement-on-book-of-mormon)

and another:

QuoteNational Geographic Society

WASHINGTON, D.C.  20036

 

January 11, 1990

Dear Mr. Larson:

    Thank you for writing to the National Geographic Society.

    The Society has never used the Book of Mormon to locate archaeological sites, and we do not believe that any of the places named in the Book of Mormon can be placed geographically by the evidence of archaeology. So far as we know there is no archaeological evidence to verify the history of early peoples of the Western Hemisphere as presented in the Book of Mormon.

    I hope you will find this information useful.

 

Yours truly,

Pamela Tucci
Research Correspondence

And another:

http://lifeafter.org/smithsonian/ (http://lifeafter.org/smithsonian/)

QuoteFor years we have heard from the missionaries that the Smithsonian Institute and National Geographic have both corroborated the historicity of the Book of Mormon.  I've been told by countless missionaries all I had to do was contact them for the information so that is what I did via e-mail.  The following are their responses to my inquiry.
 
9/10/2004

Dear Sir or Madam;

I am looking for information from the Smithsonian Institute that will help me verify that you do/do not have anthropological evidence that there was a large civilization that supposedly existed in the Americas that the Book of Mormon claims.  I've been told by countless people that your organization holds maps, etc of said finds.  I've also been shown letters from you to other people that there is no such evidence of the Mormon Church.  Any help you could provide me with would be greatly appreciated!
 
Sincerely,
Michelle Grim
Life After Ministries
10/27/2004

Dear Michelle Grim:

Thank you for contacting the National Geographic Society.

The National Geographic Society has not examined the historical claims of the Book of Mormon.  We know of no archaeological evidence that corroborates the ancient history of the Western Hemisphere as presented in the Book of Mormon, nor are we aware of empirical verification of the places named in the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon is clearly a work of great spiritual power; millions have read and revered its words, first published by Joseph Smith in 1830.

Yet Smith's narration is not generally taken as a scientific source for the history of the Americas. Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past, and the Society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon.

In fact, students of prehistoric America by and large conclude that the New World's earliest inhabitants arrived from Asia via the Bering land bridge.

(Lower sea levels during ice ages exposed the continental shelf beneath Bering Strait, allowing generations of ancient Siberians to migrate east.) National Geographic carried the article "Hunt for the First Americans" and the map supplement "The Dawn of Humans: Peopling of the Americas" in the December 2000 issue, perhaps on your library's shelf.

You might want to write the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History and ask for their latest statement on this topic.  You can write the museum in care  of

P.O. Box 37012, Washington, D.C.
  20013-7012.

So much for the Book of Mormon. And yes, the fact that there is no Mideastern DNA in Native Americans, both North and South Americans, genes. The only way that it could NOT be there is, after 1900 or so years, the Nephites or Lamanites NEVER ONCE came in contact with and intermingled sexually with the tribes from Asia. 1900 years? I don't think so.

EDIT: Sorry, that "Boob of Mormon" was accidental, but I think I'll leave it.  :-D

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "stromboli"I can easily run this thread to 20 pages all by myself. There is much more to come.

I already know that you can copy and paste. But how about THINKING on your own once in a while?  :-D
you don't even understand what you copy and paste. THINK and you MAY see a bigger picture  :-D

Not only does Stromboli think for himself, he weighs evidence. He researches and uses facts to make his decissions. He is an independent thinker. Unlike YOU who are nothing if you aren't an obedient slave to absolute buulshit. For you to accuse someone like Stromboli of not thinking for themself is  the most hypocritical inaccurate accuzation I have had the misfortune to witness.
Providing proof isn't an exercise in NOT thinking for oneslef. It is backing up what one claims. It is providing FACTS. Is that the problem with you Eve? You make a claim that is a parroted statement given to you by the relious nuts that you obey but you won't back up that claim with any facts because you think it's not thinking for yourself?
Well it is painfully obvious that you don't think for yourself. You have made wild claims and haven't provided ANY proof whatsoever to give your claims any credibility...nada zilch aip zero nothing at all. You just keep making even wilder claims and asserting faulty easily disprovable logic.
What makes you so sure that the book of mormons, and the bible are correct? What proof do you have that they are valid as a resourse for truth? You haven't provided a shred of evidence that would validate them at all. Just saying a god speaks to you isn't valid and is worth NOTHING. Can you substantiate any of the claims in the bible or the book of mormons? Can you prove a god? Can you prove that said god actually spoke to you? Can you provide even a shred of real evidence?

Quote from: "stromboli"Smithsonian letter regarding the Book of Mormon:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 0200/posts (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2210200/posts)

Quote1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archaeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World -- probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age -- in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.

4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time the early big game (sic) hunters spread across the Americas.)

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked used (sic) in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.

7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archaeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archaeological remains in Mexico and archaeological remains in Egypt.

8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.

9. There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum, of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.

SIL - 76 Rev. May 1980

The Smithsonian Institute is one of the prestigious organizations concerning historic and archaeological information, as well as many other scientific fields.

A note on meteorite iron: It is found in a lot of areas, but seldom in amounts much larger than a human fist. It is different than "ordinary" steel because it is often naturally alloyed with Nickel, due to exposure to conditions of extreme heat. It was valued by early metal smiths and was used for only the finest of weapons. Jim Bowie's knife was supposedly made from a chunk of it, but no one knows for sure. It requires a high heat forge to make anything of real use out of it because of the Nickel content. It would not have been of significant use to primitive people.

Thanks Strom! I don't know if the Smithsonian Institute gives credit to Tesla now, but they did say Marconi invented the radio last I heard. Solitary

I backed up what I said with copy and post when I first got here that everyone flamed me for, and I got the same response Eve gave when I did. She's just parroting what was said to me. I think she is either crazy or having fun driving us crazy. :shock:   #-o  :lol:  Solitary

Criminal charges against Joseph Smith

http://questioningmormonism.wordpress.c ... 08/12/208/ (http://questioningmormonism.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/208/)

Seriously, I'm not done yet.  :-D

Damnit Eve, I'm not done yet. I got lots more.

Quote from: "stromboli"Damnit Eve, I'm not done yet. I got lots more.

I want to see more Eve getting owned.

Quote from: stromboliDamnit Eve, I'm not done yet.  :twisted:

Quote from: Solitary:twisted:

What argument(s)???

Quote from: mykcob4:evil:

[quote

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "mykcob4"Not only does Stromboli think for himself, he weighs evidence. He researches and uses facts to make his decissions. He is an independent thinker.

Oooh, look who is here defending the defendless :-D
Have a nice day :-D


P.S. Stromboli has no evidence. He has only what one person said or wrote. He just BELIEVES that what they say is absolute true. He is so naïve.

Nope you are the one that is naive. You are buying the Mormon bullshit.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "bericks999"What argument(s)???

if you can not see I can not help you, bro
sorry

Where are your arguments ?

False prophecies of Joseph Smith:

Saints to gather to Independence, Missouri and build a temple- no longer teaching the gathering and no temple was built (Doctrine and Covenants 84)

Zion (at Independence Missouri) cannot fail-Mormons driven out (D&C 97-19)

Army to redeem Zion-failed (D&C 103)

Civil War prophecy; it was based on headlines in 1830 that secession was imminent. The Civil War was predicted and expected long before it occurred. Fort Sumter had been threatened in 1830, which precipitated the headlines. War did not pour out into all nations and Britain was not involved (D&C 87)

United Order-commanded as an everlasting order. Was attempted in Illinois and later in Utah. Failed both times.

"Riches of Salem" to pay church debt- no riches, no debt paid. (D&C 111)

New gathering place and temple to be built in Far West Missouri. LDS driven out and no temple was built (D&C 115)

Build a temple and a house for the Smiths in Nauvoo- temple not completed and house never built (D&C 124)

Christ to return in 1890 or 1891- (D&C 130: 14-15) Holy (bleep!) we're in the millennium! Oh, wait- no we're not.  :-D

Government to redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the church, vol. 5, p. 394; vol. 6, p. 116. And a big "nope" on that one.

According to Deuteronomy, one false prophecy is proof of a false prophet.

The Book of Mormon is bogus.

Joseph Smith was wanted on warrants for multiple crimes.

He was a false prophet.

Next up will be great great grand daddy Brigham.

:popcorn:  :popcorn:

Oh stop beating around the bush Stromboli.. Tell us what you REALLY think of Eve's precious LDS's.. :lol:

The sources for the last post were mostly from the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the Mormon canonical books. If you don't think that is a legitimate source, you are in conflict with your own religion. Many of the pieces of evidence come from Mormon sources. If you don't even know the Doctrine and Covenants is a Mormon book, it makes me guess you are merely trolling. Nearly all of the sources for Brigham Young's false prophecies are likewise official LDS sources.  

Eve is a troll, if she doesn't know her own holy books. I'm certain of it now.

All of my sources are legitimate, most of them from the LDS church itself. There is no point wasting time and energy putting up this material- and I have a trunk full- to an obvious troll, so no more of this idiocy.

I agree! She has over stayed her welcome. Solitary

"Ban the chewtoys..."
I miss Taq. Chewtoys used to leave here by their own choice.

She can stay till the mods determine otherwise, but I'm not wasting time on a blithering idiot.

Has she been deleting posts? I seem to be missing part of the conversation.

Quote from: "Plu"Has she been deleting posts? I seem to be missing part of the conversation.

I'm calling her a troll because she has apparently no knowledge of the religion she claims to belong to, because my source material is mostly from that religion. She may not be a troll, but is significantly ignorant of her own beliefs.

Quote from: "stromboli"

Quote from: "Plu"Has she been deleting posts? I seem to be missing part of the conversation.

I'm calling her a troll because she has apparently no knowledge of the religion she claims to belong to, because my source material is mostly from that religion. She may not be a troll, but is significantly ignorant of her own beliefs.

Aren't they all? Only the atheists seem to have a good understanding of them.

Quote from: "Bibliofagus""Ban the chewtoys..."
I miss Taq. Chewtoys used to leave here by their own choice.

I miss him too. Taq the troll hunter.

Quote from: "Plu"

Quote from: "stromboli"

Quote from: "Plu"Has she been deleting posts? I seem to be missing part of the conversation.

I'm calling her a troll because she has apparently no knowledge of the religion she claims to belong to, because my source material is mostly from that religion. She may not be a troll, but is significantly ignorant of her own beliefs.

Aren't they all? Only the atheists seem to have a good understanding of them.

This is true.

Quote from: "leo"

Quote from: "Bibliofagus""Ban the chewtoys..."
I miss Taq. Chewtoys used to leave here by their own choice.

I miss him too. Taq the troll hunter.

Yeah, I think I actually objected when they got rid of him.

Quote from: "Eve"

Quote from: "Plu"There's no support in either direction. It's just a book of gibberish written by a manipulative con-man, just like all other holy books.

I respect your opinion. :)

Except it's not an opinion, it's an empirical fact that religions are man-made and can be traced back to men writing down mythology. Do your history little girl.

Obviously, the little child would rather believe what her mommy and daddy taught her, because mommies and daddies never lie. Adults, however, know that other adults lie all the time; and when every piece of available evidence points to Joseph Smith being a liar, a conman, and a complete fraud on every level, there is no choice but for intelligent adults to conclude that his religion is bullshit. I do not know why Eve, and people like her, insist on clinging to lies. It can't be comforting to know that everything your religious leaders are saying is nothing but a huge deception.

What they don't realize is that God is really the devil deceiving them. :shock:   :twisted:   :lol:  Solitary

found the best video documentary behind the scenes video EVER on mormonism.....watch it.  :rollin:

http://youtu.be/6udew9axmdM (http://youtu.be/6udew9axmdM)

yes, seen this before. Exmos refer to baptism for the dead as "dead dunking" What the church doesn't tell the members is that the ritual is done from lists generated by the church. It is a form of make work and a way to get their youth into the temples for involvement and indoctrination. Long time temple goers brag about the numbers of souls they have given a second chance to. This is actually a form of necromancy. Also, they don't tell you that the lists are passed around from temple to temple and are used over and over, just to create work for the members.

The ceremony used to include a blood oath that involved a slitting of the throat gesture to indicate you condemned yourself by revealing the secret oaths and ceremonies. It is a really creepy exercise. Early on it also includes getting felt up while you are standing inside a draped enclosure wearing only a shroud. A hand reaches in under your shroud and touches parts of your body, declaring various oaths on you. A lot of people leave the church just because of that. You are given secret names and expected to memorize them, including your wife's secret name, so you can call her forth after death to lead her to the Celestial Kingdom. And don't forget the secret handshakes and the whole ritual at the veil thingy.

Quote from: "stromboli"yes, seen this before. Exmos refer to baptism for the dead as "dead dunking" What the church doesn't tell the members is that the ritual is done from lists generated by the church. It is a form of make work and a way to get their youth into the temples for involvement and indoctrination. Long time temple goers brag about the numbers of souls they have given a second chance to. This is actually a form of necromancy. Also, they don't tell you that the lists are passed around from temple to temple and are used over and over, just to create work for the members.

The ceremony used to include a blood oath that involved a slitting of the throat gesture to indicate you condemned yourself by revealing the secret oaths and ceremonies. It is a really creepy exercise. Early on it also includes getting felt up while you are standing inside a draped enclosure wearing only a shroud. A hand reaches in under your shroud and touches parts of your body, declaring various oaths on you. A lot of people leave the church just because of that. You are given secret names and expected to memorize them, including your wife's secret name, so you can call her forth after death to lead her to the Celestial Kingdom. And don't forget the secret handshakes and the whole ritual at the veil thingy.

gotta love it. The part that always fascinates me about religion, is how the fans can completely look the other way at the copious amount of crazy that goes along with it.

Quote from: "Eve"Since

What is interesting to me is that Joseph Smith began as a skeptic. He knew ALL the religions were contradictory, and he wanted to know the truth, or so they say. So what actually happened? Did he know that his made up religion was pure BS like L. Ron Hubbard, or was he himself deluded into believing his own fantasy?

Everybody thinks Scientology is batshit crazy, but Mormonism certainly gives them a run for the money. When you are inside and indoctrinated by the lifestyle, it all makes sense. But when you start looking at it objectively and then leave like I did, you realize what a wtf was I doing? thing it is.

the latest and greatest was throwing my great great whatever grand daddy Brigham Young under the bus over racism. Here is an official statement from the church:
http://mormoncurtain.com/ (http://mormoncurtain.com/)

QuoteAccording to a recent LDS church press release, Brigham Young was solely responsible for the racist doctrine of the Mormon Church.

President Dieter Uchtdorf, during the October General Conference of the LDS Church, said: "And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes." He was speaking of Brigham Young.

By throwing Young under the bus and making him the scapegoat for past misdeeds, the LDS Church conveniently overlooks the racism exhibited by their founder, Joseph Smith. It was Smith who believed that holding the sons of Ham in servitude was acceptable, calling slavery a divine "curse." The LDS Church publication, the "Messenger and Advocate," (vol. 2, pp. 289-301, April 1836), has Smith attesting that slavery as practiced by the Southern states was ordained by God and in keeping with the "gospel of Christ."

The racist doctrine of the Mormon Church lasted for a period of 130 years or so and only ended in 1978 due to a "revelation" from God. It leaves one wondering how LDS prophets, who supposedly have an open line of communication with and who are so uniquely in harmony with the deities they exalt, could have carried on the Smith/Young legacy of bigotry for so long.

Who was it who said God's anointed will not lead us astray? Sure, that's right, it was that the same guy who called slavery a divine institution. Just saying.

This is fun shit for an ex Mormon, bro. trust me. :-D

QuoteIt leaves one wondering how LDS prophets, who supposedly have an open line of communication with and who are so uniquely in harmony with the deities they exalt, could have carried on the Smith/Young legacy of bigotry for so long.

No need to wonder, it is in the Bible.

Quote from: "vincent"

Quote from: "Eve"Since

What is interesting to me is that Joseph Smith began as a skeptic. He knew ALL the religions were contradictory, and he wanted to know the truth, or so they say. So what actually happened? Did he know that his made up religion was pure BS like L. Ron Hubbard, or was he himself deluded into believing his own fantasy?

If I were to guess, all the creators of religions know two things:
1) I'm peddling bullshit
2) But people will believe anything and give me money/power/women/whatever regardless

Quote from: "Plu"

Quote from: "vincent"

Quote from: "Eve"Since

What is interesting to me is that Joseph Smith began as a skeptic. He knew ALL the religions were contradictory, and he wanted to know the truth, or so they say. So what actually happened? Did he know that his made up religion was pure BS like L. Ron Hubbard, or was he himself deluded into believing his own fantasy?

If I were to guess, all the creators of religions know two things:
1) I'm peddling bullshit
2) But people will believe anything and give me money/power/women/whatever regardless

Joseph smith was a huckster from a family of hucksters. There are 7 separate accounts of his search for the truth/first vision story, including the official church version which was not written by him. His supposedly seeking the truth was bullshit, just like everything that came out of his mouth.  He bragged before his death that he owed more than $100,000 dollars that he skipped out on, the equivalent of a million today.

At some point he probably bought into his own BS because he became so enthralled with himself he was caught up in it. He sent men on missions and then insisted their wives have sex with him. He made himself a king in his own mind, and died because of it.

Quote from: "stromboli"Everybody thinks Scientology is batshit crazy, but Mormonism certainly gives them a run for the money. When you are inside and indoctrinated by the lifestyle, it all makes sense. But when you start looking at it objectively and then leave like I did, you realize what a wtf was I doing? thing it is.

the latest and greatest was throwing my great great whatever grand daddy Brigham Young under the bus over racism. Here is an official statement from the church:
http://mormoncurtain.com/ (http://mormoncurtain.com/)

QuoteAccording to a recent LDS church press release, Brigham Young was solely responsible for the racist doctrine of the Mormon Church.

President Dieter Uchtdorf, during the October General Conference of the LDS Church, said: "And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes." He was speaking of Brigham Young.

By throwing Young under the bus and making him the scapegoat for past misdeeds, the LDS Church conveniently overlooks the racism exhibited by their founder, Joseph Smith. It was Smith who believed that holding the sons of Ham in servitude was acceptable, calling slavery a divine "curse." The LDS Church publication, the "Messenger and Advocate," (vol. 2, pp. 289-301, April 1836), has Smith attesting that slavery as practiced by the Southern states was ordained by God and in keeping with the "gospel of Christ."

The racist doctrine of the Mormon Church lasted for a period of 130 years or so and only ended in 1978 due to a "revelation" from God. It leaves one wondering how LDS prophets, who supposedly have an open line of communication with and who are so uniquely in harmony with the deities they exalt, could have carried on the Smith/Young legacy of bigotry for so long.

Who was it who said God's anointed will not lead us astray? Sure, that's right, it was that the same guy who called slavery a divine institution. Just saying.

This is fun shit for an ex Mormon, bro. trust me. :-D

JS led his Yankee sect to set up shop in southern states Illinois and Missoury, so it is perfectly understandable that he tried to cuddle the slaveholders.

Mormon theology besides the biblical story of negros being Hams descendants, has also JS  revelation that back then in the big angelic war when the angels siding with satan became devils there was a third angelic party that did not fight on either side. Them, for punishment, the Mormon god wizarded into negros.

Besides that: Book of Mormon theology proves that the Mormon god is a conscious racist.

When the Lamanites fell away from the believing Nephites he wizarded them into subhuman indians and gave them darker skin as a punishment.
In the BOM you can read it all for yourself about despicable ugly dark skin and beautiful fair white skin.
And since its in the BOM as a (Mormon His)story defining basing fact the LDS cannot distance itself from that too. There would be nothing left to hold on then.

Quote from: "Regens Küchl"

Quote from: "stromboli"Everybody thinks Scientology is batshit crazy, but Mormonism certainly gives them a run for the money. When you are inside and indoctrinated by the lifestyle, it all makes sense. But when you start looking at it objectively and then leave like I did, you realize what a wtf was I doing? thing it is.

the latest and greatest was throwing my great great whatever grand daddy Brigham Young under the bus over racism. Here is an official statement from the church:
http://mormoncurtain.com/ (http://mormoncurtain.com/)

QuoteAccording to a recent LDS church press release, Brigham Young was solely responsible for the racist doctrine of the Mormon Church.

President Dieter Uchtdorf, during the October General Conference of the LDS Church, said: "And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes." He was speaking of Brigham Young.

By throwing Young under the bus and making him the scapegoat for past misdeeds, the LDS Church conveniently overlooks the racism exhibited by their founder, Joseph Smith. It was Smith who believed that holding the sons of Ham in servitude was acceptable, calling slavery a divine "curse." The LDS Church publication, the "Messenger and Advocate," (vol. 2, pp. 289-301, April 1836), has Smith attesting that slavery as practiced by the Southern states was ordained by God and in keeping with the "gospel of Christ."

The racist doctrine of the Mormon Church lasted for a period of 130 years or so and only ended in 1978 due to a "revelation" from God. It leaves one wondering how LDS prophets, who supposedly have an open line of communication with and who are so uniquely in harmony with the deities they exalt, could have carried on the Smith/Young legacy of bigotry for so long.

Who was it who said God's anointed will not lead us astray? Sure, that's right, it was that the same guy who called slavery a divine institution. Just saying.

This is fun shit for an ex Mormon, bro. trust me. :-D

JS led his Yankee sect to set up shop in southern states Illinois and Missoury, so it is perfectly understandable that he tried to cuddle the slaveholders.

Mormon theology besides the biblical story of negros being Hams descendants, has also JS  revelation that back then in the big angelic war when the angels siding with satan became devils there was a third angelic party that did not fight on either side. Them, for punishment, the Mormon god wizarded into negros.

Besides that: Book of Mormon theology proves that the Mormon god is a conscious racist.

When the Lamanites fell away from the believing Nephites he wizarded them into subhuman indians and gave them darker skin as a punishment.
In the BOM you can read it all for yourself about despicable ugly dark skin and beautiful fair white skin.
And since its in the BOM as a (Mormon His)story defining basing fact the LDS cannot distance itself from that too. There would be nothing left to hold on then.

Eve being on here and the constant denial of historic fact gives you a good idea of how ingrained the theology is. When I started examining my religion, it didn't take me long to figure out it was bullshit. Or as Boyd Packer used to say, "some things that are true may not be useful."  :shock: Mull that one for a bit.

Cognitive Dissonance has a whole new meaning in Mormonism. I used to be active on ex-Mormon websites. I know for a fact that people are leaving the church as fast as they are joining, and their religion that JS declared would cover the earth is static in actual participating members; well under 10 million.

The Mormon Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. It's evangelism is fervent. It's also distinctly American (specifically Western USA), which makes for an interesting cultural study.

Is, or claims to be? Because they all claim to be the biggest growers and our inside sources suggest it isn't actually growing at all if you look at the actual numbers :P

Also of course XKCD:
(//http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fastest_growing.png)

Quote from: "thepractice"The Mormon Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. It's evangelism is fervent. It's also distinctly American (specifically Western USA), which makes for an interesting cultural study.

Mormonism has claimed to be the fastest growing religion for my entire life, both as a member and after. Here are some tidbits by way of correction:

http://www.4utah.com/story/number-of-fa ... om9IYJYnRA (http://www.4utah.com/story/number-of-faithful-mormons-rapidly-declining/d/story/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA)
number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining. Attendance by actual numbers is less than 50%.

The church won't give out numbers, but Ex-Mormon websites report that the wait for response to requests for name removal is over a month, and it is a fact that thousands have their name removed every year, again, the church won't give out those numbers.

The church also doesn't mention that it holds people as members up to age 110- meaning they have any number of deceased people on the roles. Also, people who move and don't update their records are still counted. I myself found out I was carried as a member even after I was excommunicated. Disfellowshipped members, another category, can also be counted as members.

The church also doesn't mention that they have quietly downsized European missions because of the loss of new members and shifted their focus to 3rd world countries. One reason is the very strong presence of Ex-Mormon communities on the internet. Anyone with the intelligence and access to a computer can search the church out and find the truth.

All in all, I wouldn't necessarily swallow the church's claims.