in america currently, many transgender people are denied rights, they're prevented from getting a job that they're qualified for simply for being trans, they are denied access to the bathroom that corresponds with the gender they identify with, and there's alot of social issues going on to, transgender people are looked at very oddly and typically negatively by many people.
There's a notion that it's a choice and that it's a mental disorder, both of which have been scientifically disproven (there are differences in the brains of transgender people that can't just be explained away or changed.)
I'm personally transgender, so I know the shit that transgender people get legally and socially.
Transgender people are more likely to be raped, more likely to attempt suicide, and have alot of bias towards them.
Thoughts on how to fix this?
I'm personally transitioning right now, I'm taking estrogen.
I'm nonbinary in how I express myself and I'm pansexual.
(Don't mix this in with the stupid tumblr shit, pansexual is an actual sexuality (I'll date someone regardless of their biological sex, male, female, intersex, transgender, etc), and nonbinary is basically just a more neutral way of expressing yourself.)
It's not the same as this zir shit that you see on tumblr.
There have been 32 suicides by Mormon LGBT youth since the LDS church's latest policy announcement that marginalized gays and gay/transgender children
http://affirmation.org/our-lives-are-a-gift-to-us-and-to-the-world/
My best friend, a gay man, was beaten and robbed about 3 months ago. I agree with you.
I'm not reading that word salad. This is not a chat room, you have plenty of time to write proper English. Mobile platforms are not an excuse: I have written goddamn essays on an iPhone 5.
/rant over
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 21, 2016, 10:49:59 PM
I'm not reading that word salad. This is not a chat room, you have plenty of time to write proper English. Mobile platforms are not an excuse: I have written goddamn essays on an iPhone 5.
/rant over
why wasn't it readable?
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 21, 2016, 10:49:59 PM
I'm not reading that word salad. This is not a chat room, you have plenty of time to write proper English. Mobile platforms are not an excuse: I have written goddamn essays on an iPhone 5.
/rant over
Harsh much? This person came here for our help.
Jannabear : I am admittedly not trans and do not have much perspective on it. It would be easier for those who are to make suggestions.
Make paragraphs. Try to explain it in longer sentences instead of just writing short lines, one after another.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 22, 2016, 02:06:10 AM
why wasn't it readable?
Lack of paragraphs and complete sentences. It just looks like a wall of text (albeit a short one) which is really off-putting. (Though it likely doesn't help that I'm a bit of a Grammar Nazi.)
Quote from: _Xenu_ on January 22, 2016, 06:15:55 AM
Harsh much? This person came here for our help.
(http://img.ifcdn.com/images/329b0c051762c6a10ebf62315e02e35e54ad53a8a2d4b452b6729f5a962fc9c8_1.jpg)
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 21, 2016, 10:49:59 PM
I'm not reading that word salad. This is not a chat room, you have plenty of time to write proper English. Mobile platforms are not an excuse: I have written goddamn essays on an iPhone 5.
/rant over
You and I are more alike than different. I would worry about that.
Quote from: stromboli on January 22, 2016, 10:30:20 AM
You and I are more alike than different. I would worry about that.
Oddly enough I kind of agree with someone on my ignore list as well. Fuck! There must be some goddamned woo involved here somewhere.. Grammar Nazi? Well that's saying something, as IF to imply this individual knows jack shit and I'm just not prepared to go that far.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on January 22, 2016, 10:54:16 AM
Oddly enough I kind of agree with someone on my ignore list as well. Fuck! There must be some goddamned woo involved here somewhere.. Grammar Nazi? Well that's saying something, as IF to imply this individual knows jack shit and I'm just not prepared to go that far.
I love you too, APA.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 21, 2016, 09:42:24 PM
in america currently, many transgender people are denied rights, they're prevented from getting a job that they're qualified for simply for being trans, they are denied access to the bathroom that corresponds with the gender they identify with, and there's alot of social issues going on to, transgender people are looked at very oddly and typically negatively by many people.
There's a notion that it's a choice and that it's a mental disorder, both of which have been scientifically disproven (there are differences in the brains of transgender people that can't just be explained away or changed.)
I'm personally transgender, so I know the shit that transgender people get legally and socially.
Transgender people are more likely to be raped, more likely to attempt suicide, and have alot of bias towards them.
Thoughts on how to fix this?
I'm personally transitioning right now, I'm taking estrogen.
I'm nonbinary in how I express myself and I'm pansexual.
(Don't mix this in with the stupid tumblr shit, pansexual is an actual sexuality (I'll date someone regardless of their biological sex, male, female, intersex, transgender, etc), and nonbinary is basically just a more neutral way of expressing yourself.)
It's not the same as this zir shit that you see on tumblr.
I can actually see the issue with the bathrooms from both sides. Yes, you want to use the bathroom you feel comfortable with. I can understand that. But other people use the bathroom too, and they have just as much right to be comfortable in the bathroom as you do. Frankly, if you have a penis you should use the bathroom designed for penises unless nobody has a problem with it. That bathroom was, after all, designed to accommodate the genitals you have, not the ones you identify with. And if you can't see why a parent may be uncomfortable with someone lugging a penis into the room where their daughter has her pants down then you are really just demanding that people be sensitive to your comfort while completely ignoring theirs. I know it's not "fair", but neither is it fair to require all other people to "get over" their discomfort so that you can be comfortable. And, frankly, life just isn't that fair.
Contrary to the one-sided argument for using the bathroom of the gender you identify with, the only real solution is to build new bathrooms. You either need individual bathrooms or a third set of compartmentalized bathrooms. In the very least you would need to redesign the bathrooms to have a common room for washing up and stalls with actual doors for privacy while partially unclothed.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for rights of the LGBT community. But those rights have to be reasonable. You can't say "You have to make these people comfortable, I don't care how uncomfortable it makes you!" That is even more unfair than the situation now. That is actively telling people that only the comfort of people not like them matters. And before you say it, that's not what you're facing now. What you're facing now is a "What the fuck do we do about this new thing?" situation. It wasn't an issue when most bathrooms were built. It is a new issue which we are trying to find a way to deal with. But the "right" way to deal with it is certainly not to allow anyone to walk into any bathroom they feel "comfortable" with. I don't mind explaining to my daughter why a woman has a penis. In fact, I have had that conversation recently (not exactly the penis thing, but why that guy was dressed like a woman). My explanation started with, "Honey, that
is a woman..." and went on from there. So I am sensitive to the issue. But that doesn't mean I want my daughter to
see that penis. Like it or not, that, regardless how you
feel about yourself, the actual, physical differences are important at times and a bathroom is definitely one of those times. And, by the way, "bathroom" doesn't necessarily mean a room with stalls, urinals and sinks. The bathrooms at the YMCA, for instance, also have shower stalls and changing benches where "seeing" is a very real issue.
Nudists of the world unite! You have only to lose your embarrassment at how ugly you are!
Or just get rid of the urinals in the men's restroom, and add a couch and a tampon dispenser (for the D-men) ... add a rubber dispenser in both (for the R-women). That way everybody has a free choice of bottom add-on, has privacy, and can have a good cry together ;-))
Jannabear, perhaps you don't realize it,but you've already stated that you refuse to self censor your own speech and then complain that the vast majority of the world just won't fall in line with your demands to be comfortable with whatever you say think or do.
My dad, not a religious man at all used to tell me that Christ didn't die on the cross just for me and while that's really just metaphorical jibberish there's a bit of truth in it as well. The world doesn't really owe you a fucking thing any more than anyone else.
You come across as best as I can tell as rather selfish and self serving demanding we all change for a very small number of people who historically have been pretty much treated with contempt for better or worse for a very long time. To be quite honest you really should consider yourself very lucky to be alive in a period of time when the LGBT community is tolerated at all much less not killed on sight.
I'm not saying that you're wrong with wanting rights, but demanding that everyone just accept your life choices without question is plain fucking silly. I remember a time when I could have been beaten just because I have long hair and suddenly within the past few years we have transgender people making demands completely unthinkable a few years ago.
Perhaps you believe that the tide will not and cannot turn against you, but biology would argue without a single word and the tide could easily turn against you just for seeming to feel so entitled.. Like it or not respect is earned and it takes a lot to earn it. You might not even realize it, but it's much easier to lose respect from people than to earn it. So far as best as I can see you've done nothing to earn a bit of respect. Try earning respect before demanding it.
I put -'s with my responses.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on January 22, 2016, 11:26:27 PM
Jannabear, perhaps you don't realize it,but you've already stated that you refuse to self censor your own speech and then complain that the vast majority of the world just won't fall in line with your demands to be comfortable with whatever you say think or do.
-So making a criticism is equal to censorship, ok, that makes sense.
My dad, not a religious man at all used to tell me that Christ didn't die on the cross just for me and while that's really just metaphorical jibberish there's a bit of truth in it as well. The world doesn't really owe you a fucking thing any more than anyone else.
-the idea of the world "owing you something" doesn't even make any sense, what the fuck are you talking about.
You come across as best as I can tell as rather selfish and self serving demanding we all change for a very small number of people who historically have been pretty much treated with contempt for better or worse for a very long time. To be quite honest you really should consider yourself very lucky to be alive in a period of time when the LGBT community is tolerated at all much less not killed on sight.
-So as long as you aren't being stoned to death everything's perfect..
O wait, that's not how reality works.
And how is it selfish to say that transgender people should be given the respect of not being treated like shit for a biological difference in their brain, like what the actual fuck are you even talking about?
I'm not saying that you're wrong with wanting rights, but demanding that everyone just accept your life choices without question is plain fucking silly. I remember a time when I could have been beaten just because I have long hair and suddenly within the past few years we have transgender people making demands completely unthinkable a few years ago.
-"but demanding that everyone just accept your life choices without question is plain fucking silly."
Being transgender..
wait for it..
..
Isn't a fucking choice.
Perhaps you believe that the tide will not and cannot turn against you, but biology would argue without a single word and the tide could easily turn against you just for seeming to feel so entitled.. Like it or not respect is earned and it takes a lot to earn it. You might not even realize it, but it's much easier to lose respect from people than to earn it. So far as best as I can see you've done nothing to earn a bit of respect. Try earning respect before demanding it.
-How am i demanding respect?
All I'm saying is that me being transgender, and anyone else being transgender, shouldn't be a fucking factor, transgender people should be equal to cisgender people as a factor, in saying that their gender has nothing to do with how you should treat them, other then calling them what they fucking are, which isn't even fucking difficult and is a basic respect EVERYONE deserves.
You stupid arrogant cunt.
You are absolutely right, it shouldn't be a factor.
The only thing you can control is your perspective and reaction. No matter how much you complain and jump up and down and try to educate people, you cannot make them learn. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be on your way to living your life instead of focusing on the bad stuff. You are, understandably, very, very angry. You were certainly dealt a difficult card in life. This is not something a person bears on their own. You might benefit from professional help, and you owe that to yourself.
Ok then.. The entire world is wrong and you're the only one who gets 'it'.. Congratulations.
The point I've tried to make as have several others is that going through life as a whiney cunt insulting everyone who disagrees with your bullshit is the fastest way to get on everyone's ignore list and just so you don't feel alone in the world you're in good company with the other dipshits on my ignore list.
Nice talking to you. Enjoy your time bitching nonstop about shit most of us don't really care about.
Err..sorry mermaid.. That wasn't directed at you..
Quote from: Mermaid on January 23, 2016, 09:54:35 AM
You are absolutely right, it shouldn't be a factor.
The only thing you can control is your perspective and reaction. No matter how much you complain and jump up and down and try to educate people, you cannot make them learn. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be on your way to living your life instead of focusing on the bad stuff. You are, understandably, very, very angry. You were certainly dealt a difficult card in life. This is not something a person bears on their own. You might benefit from professional help, and you owe that to yourself.
I think that people can be educated, this is evidenced by the growing number of atheists, the growing acceptance of the LGBT community, and people becoming more liberal in general.
And "you might benefit from professional help" was a bit dismissive.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on January 23, 2016, 10:06:48 AM
Ok then.. The entire world is wrong and you're the only one who gets 'it'.. Congratulations.
The point I've tried to make as have several others is that going through life as a whiney cunt insulting everyone who disagrees with your bullshit is the fastest way to get on everyone's ignore list and just so you don't feel alone in the world you're in good company with the other dipshits on my ignore list.
Nice talking to you. Enjoy your time bitching nonstop about shit most of us don't really care about.
Nice talking to someone who doesn't want to discuss anything and wants to dismiss those who disagree with them as whiney.
Have a nice intellectually bankrupt life.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 24, 2016, 05:36:21 AM
I think that people can be educated, this is evidenced by the growing number of atheists, the growing acceptance of the LGBT community, and people becoming more liberal in general.
And "you might benefit from professional help" was a bit dismissive.
Not my intent at all. It was sincere. It's your life though, and you're presumably an adult, so your choice. It's crossing a boundary for me to suggest this, I realize. Take it or leave it.
Quote from: Mermaid on January 24, 2016, 10:08:07 AM
Not my intent at all. It was sincere. It's your life though, and you're presumably an adult, so your choice. It's crossing a boundary for me to suggest this, I realize. Take it or leave it.
It's not even that you crossed a boundary, I don't believe in treating people like their opinions our sacred, so if you think that, then it's ok to state it, I'm not going to go ARREST THIS PERSON, THEY HAVE COMMITTED THE ULTIMATE OFFENSE OF OFFENDING ME, I thought the statement was pointless because I'm not emotionally disturbed, I'm just an angry person.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 24, 2016, 12:01:37 PM
It's not even that you crossed a boundary, I don't believe in treating people like their opinions our sacred, so if you think that, then it's ok to state it, I'm not going to go ARREST THIS PERSON, THEY HAVE COMMITTED THE ULTIMATE OFFENSE OF OFFENDING ME, I thought the statement was pointless because I'm not emotionally disturbed, I'm just an angry person.
I didn't imply that you are emotionally disturbed. Mental health professionals aren't only for people who are mentally disturbed.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 21, 2016, 09:42:24 PM
Thoughts on how to fix this?
There's nothing wrong with transgender people and most of their problems are the result of social stigma, and social stigma is not something that can easily be fixed or put away; it's a long process of transitioning the society.
Getting involved in grassroots organizations that aim to lobby politicians into passing bills that stop discrimination against LGBT people is probably the best way to get involved politically.
As far as responding to social stigma, it is also not easy. Social pressure puts a huge mental and subsequently physical strain on a person, and you go through problems that the majority of us do not go through, some of which you listed in the OP. You can't just 'fix' people and stop bigots from assaulting or harassing LGBT people, and short of living your life and keeping your head up there's not much more you can do. Talking with therapists may help give you an ear to listen to your problems, but it doesn't necessary have to be a therapist. A close friend will do.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 22, 2016, 11:54:25 PM
All I'm saying is that me being transgender, and anyone else being transgender, shouldn't be a fucking factor, transgender people should be equal to cisgender people as a factor, in saying that their gender has nothing to do with how you should treat them, other then calling them what they fucking are, which isn't even fucking difficult and is a basic respect EVERYONE deserves.
I'm not going to quote most of that as much of it is very angry or, frankly, unintelligent.
Let me start by saying the people here are your allies. In most ways, we agree with you and support you. Speaking to the people here so disrespectfully is not the way to further your cause. It's the way you turn allies into enemies who no longer care about your cause. If you have anger issues, I understand. I certainly cannot imagine what you have gone through for most of your life and don't pretend to. But taking it out on people who actually support most of what you believe, even if they come off as a little abrasive, that's not really the brightest move. Alienating allies will certainly do nothing to help you.
So, being transgender shouldn't be a factor. Let's deal with that. Why shouldn't it? Remember, this is something completely new to most of the country. This is not something that people are going to wake up one day completely accepting. To simply expect things to change overnight because it's not fair, well, it's not going to happen. Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are. What people are saying is that you should be happy it isn't as bad as it was 20 years ago. The LGTB community has made a lot of progress in a very short time. This is WAY more progress than most causes make in this short of time. The civil rights movement was in the '60s and women STILL don't have equal pay and Republicans are STILL passing bills to keep black people from voting.
You simply can't go from the way it was even just 5 years ago to complete equality instantly. But you're not even talking about equality here. You're going a LOT further by saying they should be "treated" the same. Well, I'm sorry, but that is never going to happen. Ever. You will NEVER see that. People are what they are. There are people who still use the N word to describe black people. No, it's not fair, but it's the way it is and it's the way it always will be. Thankfully, those people are a dying breed, but they will unfortunately never become extinct. I'm sorry, but you CANNOT HAVE equal "treatment" to some other group. Being transgender IS a factor. Should it be? No. But it IS and it ALWAYS WILL BE!
So, yes, you do come off as a little whiny. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to upset you, but you do. You want everything right now and you're angry that you're not getting it. This anger is completely justified, but what you want is unrealistic. You simply can't have it. It is a fact of human nature. It is NEVER going to happen. Just like there will always be some dick who thinks people with different colored skin from him are inferior, there will always be some closed-minded dick who thinks transgender people are inferior. Always.
You also come off as a little self-centered. You talked, in your first post, about not being allowed to use the bathroom for the gender you "identify with". You never once considered the other people in that bathroom and how they may feel about that, just seeming to demand that they should be completely okay with it and if they aren't then it is wrong of them. It came off as you demanding that you be given free reign to do whatever makes you comfortable and everyone in the country not only comply, but actually be comfortable with it. Of course, that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how it comes off, which is why people were saying you were whining. You do come across as selfish, at least in that first post. APA wasn't picking on you, just being honest with you. Brutally honest, yes, but honest just the same.
Quote from: widdershins on January 26, 2016, 12:40:43 PM
(Your post)
this is my response to your post.
I'm not going to quote most of that as much of it is very angry or, frankly, unintelligent.
That's a convenient copout, though I don't remember much of what I had wrote, maybe it was unorganized
Let me start by saying the people here are your allies. In most ways, we agree with you and support you. Speaking to the people here so disrespectfully is not the way to further your cause. It's the way you turn allies into enemies who no longer care about your cause. If you have anger issues, I understand. I certainly cannot imagine what you have gone through for most of your life and don't pretend to. But taking it out on people who actually support most of what you believe, even if they come off as a little abrasive, that's not really the brightest move. Alienating allies will certainly do nothing to help you.
I don't consider people who say being trans is a choice and people who are against some aspects of transgenderism to be allies, I don't like the idea of compromise on these kinds of topics, it's not beneficial.
So, being transgender shouldn't be a factor. Let's deal with that. Why shouldn't it? Remember, this is something completely new to most of the country. This is not something that people are going to wake up one day completely accepting. To simply expect things to change overnight because it's not fair, well, it's not going to happen. Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are. What people are saying is that you should be happy it isn't as bad as it was 20 years ago. The LGTB community has made a lot of progress in a very short time. This is WAY more progress than most causes make in this short of time. The civil rights movement was in the '60s and women STILL don't have equal pay and Republicans are STILL passing bills to keep black people from voting.
So you say that "Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are"
Yet you tacitly state "Stop fucking whining"
And the wage gap is bullshit, when you factor in what jobs women typically get and maternity leave, the wage gap is significantly smaller, which should still be addressed, but it isn't near as big as feminists make it out to be.
You simply can't go from the way it was even just 5 years ago to complete equality instantly. But you're not even talking about equality here. You're going a LOT further by saying they should be "treated" the same. Well, I'm sorry, but that is never going to happen. Ever. You will NEVER see that. People are what they are. There are people who still use the N word to describe black people. No, it's not fair, but it's the way it is and it's the way it always will be. Thankfully, those people are a dying breed, but they will unfortunately never become extinct. I'm sorry, but you CANNOT HAVE equal "treatment" to some other group. Being transgender IS a factor. Should it be? No. But it IS and it ALWAYS WILL BE!
I don't really give a shit rather or not it will continue to be a factor for some morons, I'm still advocating that it not be, I'm not expecting everyone to change, I'm just fighting for it.
You can fight for everyone to change without expecting everyone to change, there's a difference between determination and idealism.
So, yes, you do come off as a little whiny. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to upset you, but you do. You want everything right now and you're angry that you're not getting it. This anger is completely justified, but what you want is unrealistic. You simply can't have it. It is a fact of human nature. It is NEVER going to happen. Just like there will always be some dick who thinks people with different colored skin from him are inferior, there will always be some closed-minded dick who thinks transgender people are inferior. Always.
Again, I don't really fucking care if there will continue to be fucking morons, I'm still going to advocate that people not be fucking morons.
As for whiney, I'd say I'm an angry person, not a whiney one.
You also come off as a little self-centered. You talked, in your first post, about not being allowed to use the bathroom for the gender you "identify with". You never once considered the other people in that bathroom and how they may feel about that, just seeming to demand that they should be completely okay with it and if they aren't then it is wrong of them. It came off as you demanding that you be given free reign to do whatever makes you comfortable and everyone in the country not only comply, but actually be comfortable with it. Of course, that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how it comes off, which is why people were saying you were whining. You do come across as selfish, at least in that first post. APA wasn't picking on you, just being honest with you. Brutally honest, yes, but honest just the same.
I think the fact that you're put under actual danger and much more stress having to use the wrong restroom should entitle you to use the correct one over some puritanical cunts being slightly uncomfortable.
[/quote]
Quote from: Jannabear on January 21, 2016, 09:42:24 PM
There's a notion that it's a choice and that it's a mental disorder, both of which have been scientifically disproven.
(Don't mix this in with the stupid tumblr shit, pansexual is an actual sexuality (I'll date someone regardless of their biological sex, male, female, intersex, transgender, etc)
Do you have a source on transgenderism being a mental disorder being scientifically disproven? That sounds completely different from the statement the APA made about the changes to the DSM regarding transgenderism. From what i read in that announcement they merely changed the name of the diagnostic, they removed the word disorder to not cause stigma and stress but that name change did not imply any significant change to the substance of the diagnostic and recommended treatments.
Also this definition of pansexuality you have of being attracted to people regardless of their sexual charactheristics makes no sense, it is precisely due to the sexual charactheristics of a person that attraction occurs. Though you framed it as "would date" which is ambiguous and maybe you were not talking about sexual attraction exactly?
Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!
This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.
I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...
mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.
Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....
I have to second what APA said. It's kind of a rough statement, but it's true. The world doesn't owe you anything more than it owes someone else...
Some people are dealt different hands than others and some of these hands are more like a pair of 3s in comparison to some people that have a Royal Flush. The difference between some of the people with the Royal Flush and the people that go their whole life with a pair of 3s isn't always much. Some people that are dealt a pair of 3s win the whole pot because they make it work. And just because you're transgender doesn't mean you can't make it work; it just means you will face different challenges in your life from someone that isn't. We all have challenges. The people that succeed in life succeed because they rise up and overcome their challenges.
I did a quick search of famous transgender people for you and came up with this http://time.com/130734/transgender-celebrities-actors-athletes-in-america/. even in the 50s there were influential transgender people, so you do you and go tackle life. Not saying you have to be "influential" to be successful and enjoy your life, but you can definitely have a great life either way. And if I haven't made this clear in any recent posts of mine... fuck haters. There will always be haters, no matter who you are or what you do. So fuck them.
EDIT: Also, I should add that it was pretty hard to read your original post, so I tried to get what I could as your general point/question and winged it.
Quote from: doorknob on February 09, 2016, 05:49:15 PM
Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!
This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.
I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...
mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.
Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....
The difference here is that transgenderism is not a malfunction. It doesn't prevent or hinder someone from functioning as a member of society on its own. Its only through the prejudice of others that the hindrance occurs.
But if you're schizophrenic or clinically depressed or bipolar, you've got a real problem and it stems entirely from within you. Its not your fault, but its definitely a problem and not just an attribute. I think the worst thing we could do to mentally ill people is to start treating their illness like its ok, like its some kind of unique attribute rather than a problem. Absolute acceptance is just as bad as absolute rejection. Its like saying cancer is ok, because thats just how your body developed. No, its a problem that needs to be dealt with.
On a different vein, I think the biggest problem transgendered people face is from the very large group of people who don't want to be told what to think. They see transgendered people as doing this.
For example, a transgendered woman wants to be referred to as a man. You decide not to do so because you don't feel like anyone has the right to alter the way you perceive and label things. He gets furious and gets people to shame you for refusing. Now you feel like they're trying to force you to see the issue their way. Theres a lot of people who will just dig in their heels and refuse on that basis alone. This person might not even have an issue with the transgendered beyond this particular point. They might even be in support of expanded rights for transgendered people. But they still dont want to be told how to refer to them.
Its a very strange kind of mental process. People want to be compassionate and supportive of people that are social outcasts for lack of a better term, but at the same time they don't want that compassion to intrude upon their own internal perceptions and opinions. Many of them probably think something like this: "She's a full person who deserves full rights under the law and respect as a human being, but shes not a man and never actually will be since gender is determined by biology. Therefore, while I support her rights, I refuse to refer to her as anything but a woman".
These people can't see that respecting them as humans involves using the pronoun they prefer to refer to themselves. All they can see is the imposition of that.
*Mod*
Dear Jannabear,
You have some issues, we can see that. Most of us are willing to help in whatever small way we can. Some of us, not so much. You have something that is important to you, we all do. Some of us will try hard to understand, some of us have other difficulties that may be more problematic than yours.
We did not come into your house, you came into ours. Welcome again.
Now, two things.
Calm the fuck down.
Learn how to use the little quotey thing, if you need help, PM Pickelled, he can help you with anything here.
I hope you stick around.-aitm
Quote from: Nonsensei on February 09, 2016, 07:37:23 PM
The difference here is that transgenderism is not a malfunction. It doesn't prevent or hinder someone from functioning as a member of society on its own. Its only through the prejudice of others that the hindrance occurs.
Source? What i read in the DSM gender dysphoria implied endogenous distress because the patient psychology was at odds with his phyisical body. Which is one of the principal characteristics of something to be a disorder which gender dysphoria was classified as untill they changed the name to avoid stigma.
Can't put myself in the shoes of the transgendered, but I can make an observation. The problem is simply that we are in transition from a state of ignorance and bigotry to a state of tolerance and acceptance. This forum would not exist 15 years ago and your voice, Janna, would not be heard at all. You might rage at what is happening, but if you take a longer view you can see there is progress. That's me being proactive. Bye.
Quote from: stromboli on February 09, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Can't put myself in the shoes of the transgendered, but I can make an observation. The problem is simply that we are in transition from a state of ignorance and bigotry to a state of tolerance and acceptance. This forum would not exist 15 years ago and your voice, Janna, would not be heard at all. You might rage at what is happening, but if you take a longer view you can see there is progress. That's me being proactive. Bye.
Interestingly enough... and coincidentally enough... today I saw a bumper sticker that read "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." -MLK
Progress is still progress, even though it might seem excruciatingly slow at times.
Today I also saw a New Jersey license plate in my town that said "OCANADA"... so... yeah.
Quote from: doorknob on February 09, 2016, 05:49:15 PM
Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!
This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.
I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...
mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.
Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....
Gender dysphoria was called gender identity disorder in the DSM-IV and it was changed for the DSM-V it is still basically a disorder but the american psychological association considers the word disorder to attach a negative stigma that will cause them distress so they won't call it a disorder but the diagnostic and treatment remains the same in the manuals.
Quote from: mauricio on February 10, 2016, 02:14:59 AM
Gender dysphoria was called gender identity disorder in the DSM-IV and it was changed for the DSM-V it is still basically a disorder but the american psychological association considers the word disorder to attach a negative stigma that will cause them distress so they won't call it a disorder but the diagnostic and treatment remains the same in the manuals.
My research classifies your assertions as bullshit. Gender dysphoria is NOT considered a mental illness. The idea that they changed the name for no other reason than for sensitivity sake is hearsay at best and wishful thinking at worst. stress resulting from it may or may not even occur. "Treatment" involves talk therapy.
Quote from: Nonsensei on February 10, 2016, 09:33:39 AM
My research classifies your assertions as bullshit. Gender dysphoria is NOT considered a mental illness. The idea that they changed the name for no other reason than for sensitivity sake is hearsay at best and wishful thinking at worst. stress resulting from it may or may not even occur. "Treatment" involves talk therapy.
Thats why asked you for a source. Gender dysphoria is the same thing as gender identity disorder they just changed the name and added some specifics about diagnosing and treating the condition on different age groups. And deleted something about subtypes if remenber correctly. But it still was as the name indicated a condition that generates endogenous distress which is one of the main factors that turns things into disorders that you need profesional medical help for. Like smoking weed is not a disorder unless the cravings cause you distress and affect your normal functioning. With the paraphilias its the same too, you can feel sexual desire for 14 years old girls but unless your desire is primary or exclusive and with enough intensitity to be hard to control and causing you distress affecting your normal functioning, unless those conditions are met on top of the desire you do not fit the diagnosis.
The thing about stigma is not hearsay when it comes directly from the APA
Read http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf
Whether you want to call it a disorder or not does not matter really, the concept described in that manual is consistent with other conditions described in it and should remain there to guide healthcare professionals to treat it properly. I actually have seen some people advocate for its removal from the manuals cause you know it's not a disorder herp derp. Surely that would help trans people.... Ultimately whether you want to call it a disorder or not i dont care as long as we agree that is a condition that generates endogenous distress and that the person needs profesional treatment for. This whole its just society that causes them to suffer otherwise if we all accepted transpeople it would be unicorns and rainbows is total bullshit, they would still feel the gender dysphoria no matter how nice and accepting you are to them. Its like depression is not healed because people treat you kindly, there's clear endogenous distress.
Quote from: mauricio on February 10, 2016, 04:12:21 PM
Thats why asked you for a source. Gender dysphoria is the same thing as gender identity disorder they just changed the name and added some specifics about diagnosing and treating the condition on different age groups. And deleted something about subtypes if remenber correctly. But it still was as the name indicated a condition that generates endogenous distress which is one of the main factors that turns things into disorders that you need profesional medical help for. Like smoking weed is not a disorder unless the cravings cause you distress and affect your normal functioning. With the paraphilias its the same too, you can feel sexual desire for 14 years old girls but unless your desire is primary or exclusive and with enough intensitity to be hard to control and causing you distress affecting your normal functioning, unless those conditions are met on top of the desire you do not fit the diagnosis.
The thing about stigma is not hearsay when it comes directly from the APA
Read http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf
Whether you want to call it a disorder or not does not matter really, the concept described in that manual is consistent with other conditions described in it and should remain there to guide healthcare professionals to treat it properly. I actually have seen some people advocate for its removal from the manuals cause you know it's not a disorder herp derp. Surely that would help trans people.... Ultimately whether you want to call it a disorder or not i dont care as long as we agree that is a condition that generates endogenous distress and that the person needs profesional treatment for. This whole its just society that causes them to suffer otherwise if we all accepted transpeople it would be unicorns and rainbows is total bullshit, they would still feel the gender dysphoria no matter how nice and accepting you are to them. Its like depression is not healed because people treat you kindly, there's clear endogenous distress.
The most you can call it is a developmental disorder, it's the way you developed in the womb.
Gender identity disorder implied that it was a mental disorder, which it isn't.
And gender dysphoria and transgenderism are 2 different things
One is being uncomfortable with your body, the other is your genitalia and hormones not matching your brain's structure.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PM
That's a convenient copout, though I don't remember much of what I had wrote, maybe it was unorganized
It's not a copout, simply what I was responding to.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PMI don't consider people who say being trans is a choice and people who are against some aspects of transgenderism to be allies, I don't like the idea of compromise on these kinds of topics, it's not beneficial.
Did I say that? Did I even allude to that? Of course being who you are is not a choice. Why the hell would you choose to go through what you go through every day in life if it's just as simple as choosing not to? The concept that it is a choice is ridiculous to me.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PM
So you say that "Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are"
Yet you tacitly state "Stop fucking whining"
And the wage gap is bullshit, when you factor in what jobs women typically get and maternity leave, the wage gap is significantly smaller, which should still be addressed, but it isn't near as big as feminists make it out to be.
If that's what you heard it's no wonder you're always so pissed off. You need to chill the fuck out and realize that sometimes people mean what they actually say and stop hearing, "Ew! You're an icky tranny!" every time someone disagrees with you slightly. What I DID say is that OF COURSE being transgender is going to be a factor. It's new to most of the country and it takes a while for people to get used to something new. What I DID say is that compared to women and minorities you are making progress by leaps and bounds and you should be happy with that. You should never SETTLE for that, but making demands that you want to use this bathroom and nobody can say anything bad about you ever, that's just ridiculous. If you've ever read a post here you'll easily see that Christians, the biggest single group of anything in the US, don't even have that.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PM
I don't really give a shit rather or not it will continue to be a factor for some morons, I'm still advocating that it not be, I'm not expecting everyone to change, I'm just fighting for it.
You can fight for everyone to change without expecting everyone to change, there's a difference between determination and idealism.
There's also a difference between "fighting for" and "demanding". When you're angry, you are probably doing the latter.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PM
Again, I don't really fucking care if there will continue to be fucking morons, I'm still going to advocate that people not be fucking morons.
As for whiney, I'd say I'm an angry person, not a whiney one.
Both are annoying, the only difference being perception. Neither one makes people like you, so neither one is good for your cause.
Quote from: Jannabear on February 08, 2016, 06:47:28 PMI think the fact that you're put under actual danger and much more stress having to use the wrong restroom should entitle you to use the correct one over some puritanical cunts being slightly uncomfortable.
That argument is just some grade A bullshit, there. The "wrong" or "right" restroom? As defined by, let me guess, YOU? And you are "entitled" now, are you? You are "entitled" to be the only one in the restroom who is "comfortable" because you "might" be made uncomfortable or put in danger in the other restroom? THIS is the self-centeredness I was talking about. You use absolute terms to state your opinion, your side as an absolute. You are not "entitled" to shit. You are not "entitled" to follow my 15 year old daughter into the restroom because you're afraid I might pull a knife on you if you follow me instead. You are not "entitled" to make both her and me uncomfortable because I "might" be an asshole. You speak as if your feelings, alone, are important because you have suffered. I don't doubt you have, just as I don't doubt you've had some uncomfortable and probably downright scary situations in the restroom. But I didn't do that. You don't get to shit all over my rights because someone else shit all over yours. So this whole time you are demanding that you be treated with respect you are actively disrespecting anyone and everyone who disagrees with you on the slightest point. Frankly, you're kind of a self-centered jerk about it with no compassion or care for anyone but yourself, which only serves to reinforce all the stereotypes you hate so much. You're your own worst enemy on this cause.
I'd say that a transgender girl is in far more danger, on average, in the boys bathroom than a girl is in the girls bathroom with a m to f transgender girl in there with her. Transgenders get bullied all the time and pushed around and assaulted. How often does something really inappropriate happen with a transgender girl in the girls bathroom with the transgender girl being the one who initiates it? Hardly ever, especially considering transgenders are a very small percentage of the population. With this in mind, I think we need to let transgender people use the washroom of the gender they identify with, and let fluid people choose whichever one they want. Even if there are uncomfortable girls in the girls washroom with a transgender in there. The transgender girls safety should come before the other girls discomfort. Now, I'm not saying that these girls discomfort doesn't matter at all, even though it may seem that way. I'm saying the transgender person's safety is just more important. The other girls safety is important too, and yeah they're in the bathroom with someone with a penis now, but how often does that turn out bad? Hardly ever, right? How often does a transgender girl get bullied if she's in the boys bathroom? Maybe every day or close to it. This is why trans people should get to use the bathroom they want to use.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
I'd say that a transgender girl is in far more danger, on average, in the boys bathroom than a girl is in the girls bathroom with a m to f transgender girl in there with her. Transgenders get bullied all the time and pushed around and assaulted. How often does something really inappropriate happen with a transgender girl in the girls bathroom with the transgender girl being the one who initiates it? Hardly ever, especially considering transgenders are a very small percentage of the population. With this in mind, I think we need to let transgender people use the washroom of the gender they identify with, and let fluid people choose whichever one they want. Even if there are uncomfortable girls in the girls washroom with a transgender in there. The transgender girls safety should come before the other girls discomfort. Now, I'm not saying that these girls discomfort doesn't matter at all, even though it may seem that way. I'm saying the transgender person's safety is just more important. The other girls safety is important too, and yeah they're in the bathroom with someone with a penis now, but how often does that turn out bad? Hardly ever, right? How often does a transgender girl get bullied if she's in the boys bathroom? Maybe every day or close to it. This is why trans people should get to use the bathroom they want to use.
A valid point...right up until it's YOUR child who is one of the "hardly ever" assaulted. Transgender does not mean gay, after all. And if I were a pervert who wanted to peep at girls all I'd have to do is put on a dress and
claim to be transgender. I know that's the Republican argument and, currently, it's not really a thing, but you know damned well that it will be as soon as we decide that people can use whatever bathroom they are comfortable with.
I still think the only real solution is more private bathrooms or a third set, perhaps just a single bathroom for people not comfortable with the more public one. Yes, the transgender person's safety AND comfort are a concern, and definitely
something needs to be done, and sooner rather than later. But simply mandating that people can use whatever bathroom they are "comfortable with", that is not the solution.
EDIT: I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but the best argument against people simply choosing whichever restroom is comfortable for them is that one person's rights cannot trump another person's rights, and allowing people to use the restroom that they feel comfortable with would do just that. Now, I do realize that non-LGBTA rights have trumped LGBTA rights for the entire history of the country, legally speaking, and still do in many ways today. And I very much realize this is, was and will continue to be very, very wrong. They are gaining rights now, which is a very good thing, and there's more work to be done, but in gaining the rights they have always deserved you cannot trample the rights of others. Non-LGBTA people have the right to feel comfortable and secure in the bathroom too and you simply cannot do away with the rights of non-LGBTA people to give LGBTA people the rights they want AND deserve. You HAVE to find another solution.
And about your assault argument, allowing them to use the restroom they were comfortable with would not actually make them safer. If Billy Bob is going to kick their asses in the men's room, what do you think he's going to do when he sees them walk into the restroom his daughter is in? Is he going to voice his discomfort? Is he going to keep his mouth shut because that's not his restroom? Or is the violence likely to escalate beyond what it might have been in the men's room when he was simply threatened by a sexuality he didn't understand, not actually perceiving a threat to his child based on that sexuality he doesn't understand? We can play what-if all day long. There is actually no evidence that it would be statistically "safer" for a transgender person to use the restroom they were comfortable with. It's just as likely it would increase the rate of fatalities, or at least the severity of the attacks.
I don't think perverts in disguise are really going to be a problem at schools. Boys are not going to put on a dress to peep at the girls. Perverts already use disguises to peep, and gay men or gay women don't need a disguise. I don't see perverts being much of an issue in school bathrooms. At the YMCA and places like that, you have washrooms/ changing rooms for boys and men being separate, and girls and women being separate, because you don't want perverts in the same room with naked kids. As far as perverts taking advantage of public restrooms by dressing up like women, that already happens as is. How easy would it be for a man to dress up like a woman in full Islamic garb, with very little of their face showing, or just put on a wig and sunglasses? This stuff can happen already. Letting transgender people use the bathroom of the gender they identify with is not going to make girls and women significantly less safe, in my opinion. Transgender people are the most likely young people to commit suicide though. This is a serious issue. Some girls being uncomfortable is an issue, but not nearly as serious an issue when we're talking about the most likely people to commit suicide, and helping them be slightly less bullied or even assaulted.
Do I think schools and public places need a third set of bathrooms? If they want to or if they can afford it, that's fine. Not everyone can afford that expense. The highschool I went to had a shitload of washrooms, so I guess they could turn a couple of those or even just one of them into a neutral washroom or something like that. In the absense of that, if a parent or child is that against being in the same washroom as a transgender person, their parents are free to transfer them to a Catholic or Christian school, or somewhere else they don't have to worry about dealing with this issue. There are choices out there for parents not comfortable with having their child in the same washroom as a transgender person. We are dealing with the group of young people most likely to end their own lives, so I think society needs to do what it can to lessen the bullying and lessen the number of suicides.
I agree with everyone telling Jannabear to calm the fuck down though. Jannabear is turning off even the people that agree with her, and that is not good.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PM
I don't think perverts in disguise are really going to be a problem at schools. Boys are not going to put on a dress to peep at the girls. Perverts already use disguises to peep, and gay men or gay women don't need a disguise. I don't see perverts being much of an issue in school bathrooms.
I wasn't even thinking specifically at schools and reducing the conversation to this one small area of society really isn't fair. And you say perverts already use disguises to peep, meaning it is already a problem. This would give them an excuse when caught.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PM
At the YMCA and places like that, you have washrooms/ changing rooms for boys and men being separate, and girls and women being separate, because you don't want perverts in the same room with naked kids.
Not at the YMCA in my town. They have a third bathroom for families, though, which is perfect.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PMAs far as perverts taking advantage of public restrooms by dressing up like women, that already happens as is. How easy would it be for a man to dress up like a woman in full Islamic garb, with very little of their face showing, or just put on a wig and sunglasses? This stuff can happen already.
I have not heard of this, but again, if it's already a problem, such a law would simply give them a legitimate excuse. In fact, they wouldn't even need a disguise then, unless you say only, specifically, "transgender" people can use whichever bathroom they are comfortable with. What about people who aren't transgender, but still feel they are of a gender different than society perceives? Are you going to exclude them? Are they not deserving of the same "rights" simply because they blend in well enough to not be attacked?
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PMLetting transgender people use the bathroom of the gender they identify with is not going to make girls and women significantly less safe, in my opinion.
I really like you. So few people admit when it is their "opinion", instead choosing to state their opinion as fact. I like discussions with people intelligent enough to know the difference. If anyone can sway my opinion it's someone with enough intelligence to understand what an opinion actually is.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PMTransgender people are the most likely to commit suicide though. This is a serious issue. Some girls being uncomfortable is an issue, but not nearly as serious an issue when we're talking about the most likely people to commit suicide, and helping them be slightly less bullied or even assaulted.
I do not disagree that the one issue is more serious than the other. I don't know if you saw the EDIT at the end of my post, though. I added it quite a bit later. One person's rights cannot trump the rights of another. You cannot take away rights from one group to give rights to another. The rights have to be "equal". Currently they are very much not equal with transgender and other people getting the shaft, so to speak, but you do not fix it by making things unequal the other way.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PMDo I think schools and public places need a third set of bathrooms? If they want to or if they can afford it, that's fine. Not everyone can afford that expense. The highschool I went to had a shitload of washrooms, so I guess they could turn a couple of those or even just one of them into a neutral washroom or something like that. In the absense of that, if a parent or child is that against being in the same washroom as a transgender person, their parents are free to transfer them to a Catholic or Christian school, or somewhere else they don't have to worry about dealing with this issue. There are choices out there for parents not comfortable with having their child in the same washroom as a transgender person. We are dealing with the group most likely to end their own lives, so I think society needs to do what it can to lessen the bullying and lessen the number of suicides.
There are ways the potential expense could be greatly reduced. There are currently unisex restrooms with more privacy and with a few better partitions a restroom could be converted to unisex pretty inexpensively.
As for the argument that "if you don't like it you can just move", come on. If women in Wyoming don't like that there is only one abortion clinic they can just transfer to another state where there are more. If gays in Mississippi don't like that they can't get married they could just move to Iowa. If parents don't like Christianity in their children's schools they can just open a secular school But that's not really a solution, is it?
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 05:47:01 PMI agree with everyone telling Jannabear to calm the fuck down though. Jannabear is turning off even the people that agree with her, and that is not good.
Yes, it really turns everyone off to (I'm assuming) her argument. Fighting for something is all well and good, until you get to the point where you fight so hard for it you're actually fighting against it.
Quote from: widdershins on February 11, 2016, 06:05:38 PM
I wasn't even thinking specifically at schools and reducing the conversation to this one small area of society really isn't fair. And you say perverts already use disguises to peep, meaning it is already a problem. This would give them an excuse when caught.
True. I hadn't really thought of that. I would think that when more than one complaint starts coming in about this person jerking off and trying to look into the next person's stall or something, the police are going to realize that something is probably up and there must be a reason this person keeps getting complaints. Same thing if a man keeps getting complaints about jerking it with a little boy in the stall next to him. The police are going to know something is up with that guy.
QuoteWhat about people who aren't transgender, but still feel they are of a gender different than society perceives? Are you going to exclude them? Are they not deserving of the same "rights" simply because they blend in well enough to not be attacked?
I don't quite understand what you are saying here, but I would not exclude anyone.
QuoteI really like you. So few people admit when it is their "opinion", instead choosing to state their opinion as fact. I like discussions with people intelligent enough to know the difference. If anyone can sway my opinion it's someone with enough intelligence to understand what an opinion actually is.
Thank you. I realise that I'm just a fallible human and I could be wrong about a lot of stuff. I'm actually sure I am wrong about many things, and have no problem admitting that there are many people here much brighter than myself. I'm constantly questioning my own positions and constantly learning new things.
QuoteI do not disagree that the one issue is more serious than the other. I don't know if you saw the EDIT at the end of my post, though. I added it quite a bit later. One person's rights cannot trump the rights of another. You cannot take away rights from one group to give rights to another. The rights have to be "equal". Currently they are very much not equal with transgender and other people getting the shaft, so to speak, but you do not fix it by making things unequal the other way.
My response to this would be that I see a transgender girl as a girl. Technically their sex is still male, and it will always be male, surgery or no surgery, but their gender is female and they are a girl to me, so I see it as girls using the washroom with other girls. I don't see it as anyone having their rights taken away.
QuoteThere are ways the potential expense could be greatly reduced. There are currently unisex restrooms with more privacy and with a few better partitions a restroom could be converted to unisex pretty inexpensively.
Yes, the stalls should go all the way to the floor so one person can't see under another person's stall and see their underwear around their ankles. This sounds like a good idea to me and will help with perverts.
Quote from: mauricio on February 09, 2016, 09:26:15 PM
Source? What i read in the DSM gender dysphoria implied endogenous distress because the patient psychology was at odds with his phyisical body. Which is one of the principal characteristics of something to be a disorder which gender dysphoria was classified as untill they changed the name to avoid stigma.
I actually agree that this can be an issue for experiences and reasons I am not comfortable sharing. I will just say I do know one person who does not feel shame about how society sees her, only that she can never really be a she.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 06:52:32 PM
My response to this would be that I see a transgender girl as a girl. Technically their sex is still male, and it will always be male, surgery or no surgery, but their gender is female and they are a girl to me, so I see it as girls using the washroom with other girls. I don't see it as anyone having their rights taken away.
Absolutely a transgender girl is a girl. We're not in the bronze age any more where we don't have the science and understanding to tell us otherwise. But that doesn't mean I want my 10 year old daughter potentially seeing a penis. I'm not a prude or anything, it's just that she's 10.
And I would bet most people who would abuse this wouldn't be jerking off or anything so obvious. They would likely have a hidden camera. Girls' bathrooms and changing rooms are already a target for this type. Not only would the be able to physically be there, they would have an excuse for walking in there in the first place to plant a camera.
But all of that is speculation and not really relevant to the conversation. What is relevant is that you cannot say, "Okay, we're going to take rights (actual, not imagined like Republicans love to pretend are real) away from this group so that we can give new rights to that group."
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there is anything whatsoever wrong with a transgender girl using the girl's restroom...IF everyone is okay with that. Personally, other than the speculative fears, I don't have a huge problem with it. PROBABLY nothing bad is going to happen. PROBABLY the transgender girl is not going to just whip it out for all to see. There would be some who abused it, yes, but you have that now. The problem comes when we realize we cannot force people to not be bigots. If you try to force this on people who are adamantly against it, first, it's not fair to them, even though they hold the opinions and beliefs of an asshole, and second, being assholes aside, they still have AND DESERVE rights just like anyone else. To them, we're the assholes.
I understand not wanting a girl to see a penis. That makes sense. Maybe the transgender girl should change in a stall and not be fully nude in the change rooms. As far as washrooms go though, I worry about the message it would send by having a new washroom rather than letting them use the girls. By not letting them use the girls washroom, the transgender person might take that as a message of "You're a freak and not a real girl, so you can't use the girls". What if we told gays they couldn't use the washroom with other boys because they might be into those boys? I worry about it being taken in that kind of way, and yeah the schools or whatever other public place can have new washrooms if they want, but if it was my decision, I don't think I would refuse transgenders the ability to choose the girls washroom. For uncomfortable girls, there is the handicapped washroom which gives you privacy, or they could wait until the washrooms are pretty much empty and go then. I see where you're coming from with the third washroom idea, and if the school wants to do it that way then fine, but I have my doubts that transgender people are going to be huge fans of that idea. Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do. Plenty of people don't like sharing a washroom with gays. Plenty of fathers don't like gay men in the washroom with their young sons.
As far as hidden cameras in public washrooms go, it's already extremely easy to plant one of those. I don't really see that as much more of a concern than it already is.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 12, 2016, 12:48:24 PM
I understand not wanting a girl to see a penis. That makes sense. Maybe the transgender girl should change in a stall and not be fully nude in the change rooms. As far as washrooms go though, I worry about the message it would send by having a new washroom rather than letting them use the girls. By not letting them use the girls washroom, the transgender person might take that as a message of "You're a freak and not a real girl, so you can't use the girls". What if we told gays they couldn't use the washroom with other boys because they might be into those boys? I worry about it being taken in that kind of way, and yeah the schools or whatever other public place can have new washrooms if they want, but if it was my decision, I don't think I would refuse transgenders the ability to choose the girls washroom. For uncomfortable girls, there is the handicapped washroom which gives you privacy, or they could wait until the washrooms are pretty much empty and go then. I see where you're coming from with the third washroom idea, and if the school wants to do it that way then fine, but I have my doubts that transgender people are going to be huge fans of that idea. Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do. Plenty of people don't like sharing a washroom with gays. Plenty of fathers don't like gay men in the washroom with their young sons.
As far as hidden cameras in public washrooms go, it's already extremely easy to plant one of those. I don't really see that as much more of a concern than it already is.
The thing is, though, they ARE different. Current restrooms are for "men" or "women". A transgender person will openly tell you that they don't fit into the "gender norm", but that's what the restrooms were made for, the "gender norm". The "men's room" is actually designed with penises in mind. The "ladies room" is actually designed with "no" penises in mind. Regardless what you call them, there can be no question that the intention of current public restrooms is "people with penises" and "people with vaginas". After a sex change the person actually becomes a "person with a penis" or a "person with a vagina", which actually changes which restroom is appropriate for them.
I'm all for gay and transgender rights. But if they suddenly had the "right" to use any bathroom they wanted, that would piss me off. I would be less sympathetic to them as I would see it as special treatment, which it very much is. I don't know if you've ever seen the ladies room vs the men's room in a given place, but I would DEFINITELY be more "comfortable" in most ladies rooms over most men's rooms. They're cleaner, they smell better and they're more private. At the fair grounds in my town there is literally a 10ft long trough against one wall in place of urinals. That is VERY uncomfortable to use. There are no dividers, we just all stand next to each other pissing in a long sink. I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable in that restroom. So I don't use it unless I absolutely have to.
Do I not have the "right" to be "comfortable" in the restroom because I'm not transgender? Judging by what you said above, "Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do," you do not think I have that right and do not think I am deserving of that right. If
I don't like it I can just use the handicap restroom or wait until the restroom is perfectly clear. But if SHE doesn't like it, NOW we all have to make special accommodations to make her comfortable? Why is she deserving of a right I am not deserving of? What logic is there behind that? Because she's at a much greater risk of being attacked in the restroom? Yes, that's definitely a problem. And you know what, black people are more likely to be shot by other black people, statistically. So to fix this, transgender people can use whatever restroom they want, and black people can't own guns. I realize the comparison is a little ridiculous but it was intended to make the point that you can't go overboard with rights or restrictions to make a given populous safer. Yes, it would make them safer (potentially, such a claim is actually speculation), but that's not an excuse for rights violations.
The bottom line, I'm for the rights of gays and transgender people, but I'm for "equal" rights, not "more" rights or "special" rights. If you grant them what would be perceived as (and in this case, actually WOULD be) "special" rights, it's not going to make things better. It's actually going to do the exact same thing as Jannabear's overactive temper, polarize people against them, make people not WANT to see their position and fuel the hatred for a populace only just now emerging from being one of the most hated in the country.
And you do realize that by your argument, that their safety is the biggest concern, transgender people SHOULD NOT get to decide which bathroom they are more comfortable in, they should be forced to use the safer one.
Quote from: widdershinsI don't know if you've ever seen the ladies room vs the men's room in a given place, but I would DEFINITELY be more "comfortable" in most ladies rooms over most men's rooms. They're cleaner, they smell better
As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on February 13, 2016, 10:51:55 AM
As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Seconded. My general rule of thumb for retail restrooms: the woman's restroom is 1.5 or more times dirtier than the men's.
I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...
Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive. When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion.
Quote from: GreatLife on February 13, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...
Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive. When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion.
I agree. Identity politics has become a divisive cancer, we need get rid of them or tone them way down and let individuals speak for themselves not pretend they speak for millions just because they share body parts or skin color.
Quote from: GreatLife on February 13, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...
Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive. When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion.
This is a necessary -actually crucial- phase and highly likely will go for a long time. "Human Rights" is VERY YOUNG.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on February 13, 2016, 10:51:55 AM
As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Maybe things are different where you are, but that is definitely not how it is in any restrooms I've ever seen. The ladies room is generally cleaner and better maintained in my experience. And my wife has worked at a few restaurants and she says the same thing. Personal experience doesn't mean shit overall, of course, but that's my personal experience and my wife's. Ladies definitely don't piss against the wall next to the toilet, which my wife used to see regularly in one men's room she used to clean. She's also seen shit smeared on the walls in the men's room, but not the ladies.
Quote from: widdershins on February 15, 2016, 12:36:49 PM
Maybe things are different where you are, but that is definitely not how it is in any restrooms I've ever seen. The ladies room is generally cleaner and better maintained in my experience.
I was a janitor at a (mainly) woman's work place a long time ago... the women's restroom was spotless and the men's was always disgusting. Though I didn't like emptying the trash in there... But that is anecdotal at best...
An embarrassing (and related) story...
I was at a dinner with friends at a fancy restaurant - was not feeling good. Decided that I needed to use the bathroom due to diarrhea.
So I hurriedly dismissed myself and went into the bathroom as quickly as possible. To keep the story respectable... the bathroom was empty and I unloaded. I had waited too long and the results can be disastrous at these times...
Just after this event, I hear the door open. My thought - those guys are going to appreciate the smells that were just released.
When all of a sudden I hear two women's voices... What the hell are they doing in my bathroom... ?
It turns out in my rush I had gone into the wrong bathroom. The ladies were complaining about me... and I couldn't respond for fear of being called a creep. They thought I was embarrassed or just rude...
I waited for the coast to clear... but of course met a woman coming in as I was leaving.
So in that particular instance, the women's restroom was undoubtedly left in worse condition by a man...
@GreatLife- you know what, shit happens.
And right here (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/) is exactly why the the "rights", as people are asking for them here, aren't going to work.
We need to devise a test! I got it! We tie a block round their neck and toss them in the ocean, if they die they were innocent and god took them, if they live they're guilty and we prosecute the mother fuckers!
Quote from: aitm on February 18, 2016, 05:29:44 PM
We need to devise a test! I got it! We tie a block round their neck and toss them in the ocean, if they die they were innocent and god took them, if they live they're guilty and we prosecute the mother fuckers!
I thinking if they live, meaning they're guilty, they probably deserve to be drowned, the asshats.