Morality

[Mr.Obvious]

Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17
1.  You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below to worship.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.
5. Honor your mother and father.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's house, wife, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Mike, hit it.

[Munch]

Mike, hit it.

Urm.. OK!


"Hello my Baby, Hello my Honey, Hello my Ragtime gal.."

[Mike Cl]

Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17
1.  You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below to worship.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.
5. Honor your mother and father.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's house, wife, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Thank you, Johnny for answering.  I really did not think you would.  Okay--there is so much incorrect with what you are saying here--where to start.  You list these as The 10 Commandments.  Why?  Nowhere in Ex. does the word 'commandments' appear.  Ex 20 starts by saying, "Then God spoke all these words."  Chpt. 21 talks of 'ordinances' , not commandments.  As I indicated before, only in Ex. 34 are the words "10 Commandments" used--and then they are listed.  Why not use them?  And why are they different than the rules that you listed?  And what of the other 613 other commandments listed in the OT for people to follow?  Those don't count?  And don't tell me that Jesus did away with those commandments--any of them-, for he told us in 3/4 places that the Law was not done away with, for he tells us that the Law is still in force, for he did not change one dotted 'i' or crossed 't'.  I'll say again, only one place in the Bible is it stated that the following is the 10 Commandments.  Yet you ignore them?  Why?  Maybe you don't really read the Bible and only listen to what an 'elder' tells you?   Could that be it?  Maybe you should really read your Bible and then you should really research it--find out what it says--what it really says--then think about it.  And then pray about it--as Jesus commands you to do--go into your closet and pray--not to pray in public or for public show, but into your closet so you can really pray and think. 

Points to consider.  In your list, God commands you to give your 'slave' the Sabbath off.  And that you shall not covet your neighbor's 'slave'.  So, in your moral world, slavery is quite okay?  It is moral?  Also, a man's wife is considered his property, and shall not be coveted.  So, in your moral world, it is okay to consider your wife to be chattel?  God does.  And in the 6th Commandment, is the proper word 'murder' and not kill?  How do you know?  And what is 'murder'?  What does that mean?  Is war okay?  Is it a moral act? 

Also, in Deu. 5, another list similar to the one you posted, calls them 'statues and ordinances' , not Commandments.  Why two lists sort of like the one you listed?  And why the 3rd that is expressly called 'The 10 Commandments'????  Is it possible that we have 3 different people giving us three different versions or what God wants?  If so, which one is the 'real' one?  Surely you do not still think of Moses as a real person, do you?  If so, maybe some heartfelt research is in order for you.  Also, in these 3 places it is indicated that God wants these commandments, statutes and ordinances followed in the 'new' land they are to occupy.  It does not really indicate they need to be followed when they leave 'the promised land'.  And it does not state that the 'promised land' is to be their home forever.

I could go on.  But I realize this must be a very difficult topic for you to fully address.  It would take a great deal of courage to do so--if you do it with any kind of critical thinking going on.  And this is  some thing that you should do by yourself--unless you'd like to call upon the help of any number of helpful and understanding atheists.  There are a number of them on this board--ask, and yea shall receive.   

[stromboli]

(Stromboli realizes at this point he is out of popcorn........)

[Mike Cl]

This is a post I posted on another thread and my give you food for thought, Johnny.

The torah also calls this list the Ten Commandments. (Ex 34) I have the Jerusalem Bible, which looks identical to what I posted, except they are called The Ten Words.  I also have version of the bible called The Book, and it is identical to what I posted and it too, calls them the Ten Commandments.

It is also interesting (to me, anyway) that at the time Jesus was supposed to be alive, the Holy Scripture was only the OT.  The NT came along quite a bit later.  And there were two main versions of it (and many other versions, as well), the Hebrew Bible and the Septuagint which was in Greek--the Hebrew Bible was in Hebrew or Aramaic.  Paul uses the Septuagint when he quotes Holy Scripture.  How do we know?  Because there are many verses and phrases that are different in the Hebrew Bible and the Septuagint.  And he always uses the Septuagint version.  Plus, no scripture was broken down into chapters or were the verses numbered.  That came much later.  So, from the beginning of Christianity, there was confusion/manipulation about what was said in the scriptures.

So, Johnny, if you really want to know about your religion and it's Word, go back to the beginning of the canoning process and see what was kept and what was discarded, and why in both instances.  It is a very, very interesting--and long story.  But, once again, that would take courage on your part. 

[stromboli]

17 pages? We are way past beating a dead horse. This thread is now officially compost.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

17 pages? We are way past beating a dead horse. This thread is now officially compost.

Oh please, this guy's got nothing on Old Seer and Eve yet.

[DeathandGrim]

Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17
1.  You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below to worship.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.
5. Honor your mother and father.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's house, wife, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Now, these first four. Why are they important to morality at large?

[SkyChief]

Now, these first four. Why are they important to morality at large?

They're obviously not.  They have nothing whatsoever to do with morality.  These were thrown in for woo purposes only, imo.

[SkyChief]

   For the atheist, where does one get their morals from?  If something is truly wrong, then why is it truly wrong?

For this atheist, a place NOT to get morals from is the bible. A vile, disgusting piece of 'literature' constructed for the purpose of subjugating the desert tribes into servitude for the benefit a handful of power-hungry men.

Heres some of the disgusting, immoral things the bible tries to float:

- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents
- Forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist (Moses' law)
- Sleeping with your dad because no other men were around (Lot and his daughters)
- Having thousands of wives and concubines (Solomon)
- Offering your daughters for mass rape (Lot and his daughters)
- Slavery (throughout the bible)
- Mass murder and genocide or killing people because they worshiped other Gods.

A 3rd-grader can tell this stuff is just wrong.   

Well, except for Solomon's thousands of wives and concubines part.  I don't see any harm in that as long as everyone involved were willing participants!   

[Mike Cl]

For this atheist, a place NOT to get morals from is the bible. A vile, disgusting piece of 'literature' constructed for the purpose of subjugating the desert tribes into servitude for the benefit a handful of power-hungry men.

Heres some of the disgusting, immoral things the bible tries to float:

- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents
- Forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist (Moses' law)
- Sleeping with your dad because no other men were around (Lot and his daughters)
- Having thousands of wives and concubines (Solomon)
- Offering your daughters for mass rape (Lot and his daughters)
- Slavery (throughout the bible)
- Mass murder and genocide or killing people because they worshiped other Gods.

A 3rd-grader can tell this stuff is just wrong.   

Well, except for Solomon's thousands of wives and concubines part.  I don't see any harm in that as long as everyone involved were willing participants!   

Wait, wait, wait.....................tell me again what's wrong with this one................- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents.  ????

[DeathandGrim]

Wait, wait, wait.....................tell me again what's wrong with this one................- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents.  ????

It'd certainly cut down my experience with every sibling and cousin I'd have in existence but I mean if it's a law...

[Termin]

      In the old testament you have

      "Honour thy father and thy mother"

        Or you die

In the new testament you have


  Luke 14:26       If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.


  It's was hard to be a christian kid, having to hate your parents but still honour them at the same time.






 

[Daniel]

Hello..I am a gay guy, 46, ex-Catholic and dealing with some guilt issues, wanting forgiveness, absolution, understanding, shame.. it's likely all from a place of self-concern and self-acceptance...I did not commit a murder, shooting, molestation, arson, nothing along those lines that, if i really wanted to serve my time for my ethical crimes, i would turn myself in the the law..
It's personal stuff, heavy, painful, deeply emotional, and thus challenged by ethical ideas of the head, but my sins are from my heart.
i'm a sensitive person, and also far too concerned with others' external judgement of me and my wrongs, and the issue of guilt and forgiveness is one that is hampered, fenced-in by my location and the reputation i've made, partly-true and partly false..
I'm in a big city, but the gay male community is very tight; everything you say or do, wear or date, is public knowledge. And once you get a bad rep, deserved or not, people love to judge and share it. A reputation is important, what you say or do cannot be undone, or revised, like cutting open a feather pillow on a windy day, and then trying to put all back together..it's painful, and I don't believe in waht seems an 'easy out', telling God and then able to let it go, according to my specific former faith doctrine...thanks SO much..if i share my dirty laundry, i am asking for as many comments / insights as possible...I'll be more brief when i do share it...

[Solitary]

Thanks for sharing, and you are not alone here. You are a good example of how Christianity, Judea, Islamic religions teach guilt from ancient texts from ignorance based on faith from authority that were delusional, insane, or just plain wrong in their beliefs, just like most of them still are. Sin is a made up idea to control people by religious authority for their benefit. What makes them think they know what is right and wrong just because religious dogma claims to know? If there was a God He would have already killed me many times He has tried if he existed, because I am probably the greatest sinner according to Puritan ethics that are silly and very dangerous to people's mental health. I don't have a problem with religion that helps people cope with the human condition, but I sure do with religious authority and churches and the Church that tell you what you can't do, and never explain why and just explain with religious bull shit. Solitary