http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23133174 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23133174)
The Islamist MB, banned for so many years in Egypt, then elected again after the toppling of Mubarak, has seen its president given 48 hours by the Egyptian army and the hundreds of thousands protesters to resign 'or else' it seems.
The protesters accuse Morsi of overseeing the destruction of Egyptian society through a mixture of increasing Islamism in society to rocketing rape and murder stats and a diminishing economy, not to forget the massive increase in sectarian strife and persecution of Coptic Christians and other minorities.
Interesting times, especially after the army sided with the protesters yesterday.
Great news! Let's hope it will serve as an example to other countries in the region.
The unofficial number that sources are putting out is 33 MILLION people protesting against Morsi, making this the largest political protest in human history. That is pretty damn awesome.
I always thought it was a bit soon to say, "Oh see! Egypt got a MB president, therefor the entire Arab Spring was a failure and Muslims cannot be civilized people!".
Yeah, revolutions don't work that way. It takes time, experimentation. America wasn't a great place after the English were kicked out either... it took a LONG while for it to become a real nation. Why did you expect Egypt to become a beacon of democracy in less than a year?
NYT reported police sided with protesters as well as they stormed then burned MB headquarters, many directly involved in rioting.. Great day to be in the Muslim Brotherhood, huh?
Quote from: "Shiranu"The unofficial number that sources are putting out is 33 MILLION people protesting against Morsi, making this the largest political protest in human history. That is pretty damn awesome.
I always thought it was a bit soon to say, "Oh see! Egypt got a MB president, therefor the entire Arab Spring was a failure and Muslims cannot be civilized people!".
Yeah, revolutions don't work that way. It takes time, experimentation. America wasn't a great place after the English were kicked out either... it took a LONG while for it to become a real nation. Why did you expect Egypt to become a beacon of democracy in less than a year?
I think modern technology is playing a big part. I think it was easier in the past to dupe a population because media was limited, but as long as media grows and expands we really are getting more of a taste as a species that we are not that different.
If Christianity can escape a dark ages, it is not a testimony to Christianity, but our species desire to be free from oppression. It is not a matter of "if" an Arab Spring will happen, or that they will have their versions of Paine and Jefferson, they do, the key is to seed more of those types in that region. To say they don't exist is absurd. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Malala are testimony to the human spirit.
It is up to the rest of the non fascist world to encourage those within to speak up and speak out. But even in the west we have our own problems. We have class warfare being waged by the rich on the middle class and working poor. We have them using religion to justify creating a sweat shop society. So while we are not them, humans will always seek to rig the game, and the compassionate side of our species seeks to make it more fair.
Reading the comments, am I the only one who sees optimism in this? Everyone is saying, "See! They just want a dictatorship back!" or that America was involved (not saying we aren't) and we are over-throwing Morsi. The problem with that is we throw a coup to replace leaders we dislike, not a national protest. This is something the people apparently want.
Uh, no... all they are saying is we don't wan an Islamist society, persecution of minorities and a skyrocketing in rape and crime. Where exactly does that say, "We want dictatorship!"?
Sounds positive to me. Lets hope the next guy(s) they elect do better. I guess they had a taste of what happens when you put the religious in charge. Lets hope they learn from that.
I've got no agenda here, but as you say, let's wait some more to see how this pans out. I would love to see democracy in the Mideast. I hope it happens. But hope isn't worth much.
It looks promising to me. I'll wait to see how it pans out too. :popcorn: Solitary
The military just gave him (Morsi) 48 hours to hit the road.
A military coup wouldn't be the worst thing for Egypt. They should try a slower approach to democracy the next time around. Allow the economy to recover and create a constitution before elections take place. The problem with African democracies is that the party that wins the first election stays in power forever. They control all the political institutions and rig the constitution and the ballots in a way that they will never lose. I think that we can all agree that we don't want the Muslim Brotherhood to dominate Egypt for the next 50 years. Nip it in the bud and start over in a more deliberate fashion.
Quote from: "gussy"A military coup wouldn't be the worst thing for Egypt. They should try a slower approach to democracy the next time around. Allow the economy to recover and create a constitution before elections take place. The problem with African democracies is that the party that wins the first election stays in power forever. They control all the political institutions and rig the constitution and the ballots in a way that they will never lose. I think that we can all agree that we don't want the Muslim Brotherhood to dominate Egypt for the next 50 years. Nip it in the bud and start over in a more deliberate fashion.
That may be part of the "roadmap" the Army will enforce if nothing of note happens soon.
//http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/02/egypt-morsi-defies-military-ultimatum-tweet_n_3536593.html
Morsi is now asking the military to remove the ultimatum because all he is doing is following the law. The thing is, its very easy to follow the law when you are the one writing it.
Even Mumbarak is saying, "Dude... you might want to step down.".
I can't deny a slight optimism. However, I think they need their own incarnation of Thomas Paine and his Common Sense as well, by a citizen amongst them whom understands their plight, and can clearly see the path ahead for them to follow towards stability and - hopefully - peace. It could be a great inspiration for other nations in the region to work towards slashing the bonds of oppression of dictators and religion.
Breaking: Morsi has been removed from power! Amazing really, but that's the power of the military in Egypt.
There will supposedly be new elections relatively soon but it's too early to tell at the moment.
The Muslim Brotherhood will no doubt be pissed too...certainly more to come.
Elections? Now that's a military coup I can get behind! Color me optimistic.
Morsi did a very bad job. He should have been a uniting figure and he could have placated the very large secular forces in Egypt (who partly voted for him because of the sympathy the MB had gained in the corrupt Mubarak years) very easily. But he just used power for his own political interest group and forced his party political stances on the whole country by insisting on clerical rights in that constitution of his. Now he suffers the consequences. Never disregard a large minority (who may be a majority when they think the better of you) while in power. Furthermore he took the Putin, Sanchez style approach to diversity of the media and freedom of press. Which was telling....
Gerard
Indeed. While I'm opposed to military coups that can be avoided (seems to defeat the point of a democratic government), Morsi brought this on himself really. I mean, did he even think about what he was doing when instituting clerical rights on the country?
> Great news! Let's hope it will serve as an example to other countries in the region.
Let's hope it will serve as an example to the US. Basing a government on a religion is a bad idea.
Frank
//http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/egypt-morsi-out-army-roadmap_n_3540700.html
Morsi out, Chief Justice of the Supreme Constitutional Court, Adly Mansour in. The military seems to be doing everything it can to prove, "...we are not in control, this is not a military coup.".
The "road map" is suppose to be released today IIRC. Interesting to see what direction Egypt takes now. Hopefully within the next week things will be settled down and the plans for elections will be set up.
Is there something special about Mansour that made the military appoint him?
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"Is there something special about Mansour that made the military appoint him?
Not that I know of. Him and Morsi apparently clashed in the past over Morsi's changes to the constitution, so I am guessing that's why they went with him.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "GurrenLagann"Is there something special about Mansour that made the military appoint him?
Not that I know of. Him and Morsi apparently clashed in the past over Morsi's changes to the constitution, so I am guessing that's why they went with him.
It doesn't matter what he is. It is a general ultimatum. To all leading 'parties'. Meaning any to kind of power zone, thing, persona "Down, who/what ever you are and act accordingly or you'll be smashed." That's the principle of a military coup.
He is the Chief Justice and perhaps designated to act as President during a vacancy by the old or the new constitution.
Gerard
Another encouraging thing is he is surrounded by minority group leaders, such as the Pope of the Coptic Church and the Mahmoud Badr, representative of the Tamarod (Rebel) movement. The intern government is being composed mostly of technocrats from all the different parties.
As far as I have seen, the military have not installed one of their own into any position of government, and they have been doing their best to stay as much out of the political process as they reasonably can. If this is a traditional military coup, then it is by far the shittiest one I have ever heard of.
What this was, imo, was a revolution that the military recognised the necessity of. The military did not do this by themselves, they weren't even the main factor, they so far have only been there to protect the people and not the government (as any good military should do).
A lot of the muslims I know are lamenting the fall of Morsi as 'bad for democracy', ignoring the fact that he was in the process of slowly demolishing anything democratic about Egypt through the propagation of Islamic laws through its new constitution.
No arguing with same people.
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"A lot of the muslims I know are lamenting the fall of Morsi as 'bad for democracy', ignoring the fact that he was in the process of slowly demolishing anything democratic about Egypt through the propagation of Islamic laws through its new constitution.
No arguing with same people.
Well, I wish Americans could get wise to the scam being pulled on us by the rich and the right wing here. Republicans have gone so far to the right and are doing just about everything opposite to what most of the public wants.
I wish we had the balls like the Egyptians do. I don't want to get rid of elections, but I do want to get rid of our republican party. It has held the middle class and working poor hostage for the past 30 years. They are not the party of Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt, not even Regan.
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"A lot of the muslims I know are lamenting the fall of Morsi as 'bad for democracy', ignoring the fact that he was in the process of slowly demolishing anything democratic about Egypt through the propagation of Islamic laws through its new constitution.
Some people seem to think that "democratic government" means "a government that does what I think is right". Even if it's a dictatorship. So Muslims in favor of Islamic law would consider what Morsi did a move toward democracy.
Until the Free Officers Revolution in 1952, Egypt had been under some sort of foreign occupation for over 2500 years. Almost ten times as long as the US has even existed. A mere 60 years of military rule followed by an entire year of democracy. It might take some time for them to get accustomed to self-rule. Hope that they get a little more organized and defeat the Brotherhood this time around.
> Muslims in favor of Islamic law would consider what Morsi did a move toward democracy.
If Morsi had been up front about his intentions to establish Sharia law and put Islam into practice, then it would be a move towards democracy, if the majority of people had voted for that.
My recollection is that he down-played that Islam aspects before the election, and indicated they would play little part in his government.
Could be remembering wrong, though.
Frank
Al Jazeera has been up to the minute on its reporting on Egypt, putting it days ahead of some other news sources (as is often the case). Looks like clashes are still erupting and some pro-Morsi protestors that came to where he was being held, were straight up shot in the face with bird shot. Not an elegant way to handle things, but they sure aren't taking shit. :shock:
Quote from: "OtterPop"Al Jazeera has been up to the minute on its reporting on Egypt, putting it days ahead of some other news sources (as is often the case). Looks like clashes are still erupting and some pro-Morsi protestors that came to where he was being held, were straight up shot in the face with bird shot. Not an elegant way to handle things, but they sure aren't taking shit. :shock:
I don't know if this is the best way to handle the situation, but it seems like the most efficient atm. Morsi cant be allowed to make public statements that will stir up more violence from pro-Morsi supporters.
Apparently the MB is going the Erdogan approach and busing supporters into Cairo to cause more violence.
I know, I know, democracy, everyone should be allowed to have a voice... but should a former terrorist organization REALLY have a place at the table? I personally think once you start murdering civilians you shouldn't have been allowed to run for pres. in the first place. And when you bus people in so you can cause more violence and confusion... you clearly don't care about democracy, you care about power.
It would be like saying, "Your ex-Al Qaeda? I don't see why you shouldn't be able to run for president!". Yeah, no... sorry, but no.
We aren't necessarily for for the Muslim Brotherhood, we just sent them some pretty healthy paychecks earlier this year to make sure they were on our side...
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/06/obama-egypt-comments/2495631/
QuoteWASHINGTON (AP) — "We remain committed to the Egyptian people and their aspirations for democracy, economy opportunity and dignity. But the future path of Egypt can only be determined by the Egyptian people."
As long as they choose an American-style democracy. If they freely choose to live in a manner we don't agree with, we'll pay anyone, and supply weapons to anyone, to overturn the freely-elected representatives of those people.
We know what's best for them better than they know themselves. (Do I really have to insert a "sarcasm" tag here?)
QuoteWe know what's best for them better than they know themselves.
:shock: I thought Bush was on the forum until I read sarcasm. :lol: Solitary
//http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/middleeast/improvements-in-egypt-suggest-a-campaign-that-undermined-morsi.html?_r=0
Morsi supporters say that the improvement in standing of living since Morsi's government has been removed proves that it was therefor a conspiracy to get rid of Morsi... because it couldn't have been the people in power were incompetent twats...
//http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/morsi-opponents-thrown-death-tower-video_n_3576055.html
Muslim Brotherhood supporters throw opposition off of roofs, kill at least two. Like I said a few days ago, the MB is shipping in thugs from around Egypt to cause as much chaos and violence in Cairo as possible.
And I'm sure you guys have heard about the violence where Morsi was being held... the MB saying the military just started randomly shooting into a crowd of women and children, the military and witnesses saying MB supporters were on the roof throwing molotov cocktails and firing down on the military. I'm not sure who I believe in this story... :roll:
Took them 80 some years, the terrorist organization MB, to get into power... and they lost it within a year. Now like little children they will throw a hissy fit about it the only way people like them know how... lie and cause violence. Hamas and Hezbollah should be proud to see the MB hasn't lost their way.
It's all one big vast conspiracy that Egyptian society seems to have suddenly and vastly improved overnight. Police are back on the steeets, traffic is better, no more gasoline shortages, no rolling blackouts all because every sector of government and private sector as well conspired against the MB to undermine Morsi and the MB.. ..According to the MB at least and to some extent it may be true, but the MB tried hard to monopolise power which backfired badly for them.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/wo ... m=homepage (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/middleeast/improvements-in-egypt-suggest-a-campaign-that-undermined-morsi.html?from=homepage)
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... l-dec.aspx (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/76182/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-Maspero-Youth-Union-says-constitutional-dec.aspx)
QuoteIn a statement released Tuesday, the group described the 33-article declaration, which outlines the roadmap for the transitional period expected to last six months, as "shocking."
"The [constitutional declaration] is not compatible with the ideals of the 30 June uprising... that went out for a civil state that upholds religious and cultural diversity," the statement read.
The declaration was criticised for its first article that states that the Arab Republic of Egypt is a democratic system based on citizenship, that Islam is the religion of the state, Arabic is its official language and the principles of sharia law derived from established Sunni canons are its main source of legislation.
This article combines Articles 1, 2 and 219 of the suspended constitution. The latter was added by Islamists to outline the meaning of "principles of Islamic sharia" mentioned in the second article.
In Egypt's previous 1971 constitution, article two also stated that the principles of sharia are the primary source of legislation, but added no more details.
This has long caused debate on the validity of stating specific religious sources for the country's legislation.
"[On 30 June] we went out to bring down their failed constitution that built a state of hate and violence," the Coptic group said in the statement.
"We did not take to the streets to give legitimacy to religious-based political parties that were about to erase Egypt's identity," the statement continued.
The group added that the country has a lot of qualified young Egyptians who should have participated in drafting the declaration.
The Coptic group also said that "it seems the revolution is not complete," and they will continue to work to fulfil its aspirations.
The constitutional declaration was opposed by several political forces.
Mansour is supposedly a moderate, but he is still a Muslim. The new constitution based on Sharia Law? doesn't sound like an improvement.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Muslim Brotherhood supporters throw opposition off of roofs, kill at least two. Like I said a few days ago, the MB is shipping in thugs from around Egypt to cause as much chaos and violence in Cairo as possible.
And I'm sure you guys have heard about the violence where Morsi was being held... the MB saying the military just started randomly shooting into a crowd of women and children, the military and witnesses saying MB supporters were on the roof throwing molotov cocktails and firing down on the military. I'm not sure who I believe in this story... :roll:
Took them 80 some years, the terrorist organization MB, to get into power... and they lost it within a year. Now like little children they will throw a hissy fit about it the only way people like them know how... lie and cause violence. Hamas and Hezbollah should be proud to see the MB hasn't lost their way.
As for who to believe i suggest you turn your bullshit detector on when dealing with muslims they speak fluent bullshit.
This 12 year old kid will tell you what is going on in Egypt-
[youtube:ai8rg3ss]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I[/youtube:ai8rg3ss]
Quote from: "baronvonrort"This 12 year old kid will tell you what is going on in Egypt-
Kids like that are the hope of the future. Let's just hope that there are more minds like his in Egypt, and that they eventually prevail. (I don't see any hope of a non-Sharia Egypt in the immediate future.)
Quote from: "baronvonrort"Quote from: "Shiranu"Muslim Brotherhood supporters throw opposition off of roofs, kill at least two. Like I said a few days ago, the MB is shipping in thugs from around Egypt to cause as much chaos and violence in Cairo as possible.
And I'm sure you guys have heard about the violence where Morsi was being held... the MB saying the military just started randomly shooting into a crowd of women and children, the military and witnesses saying MB supporters were on the roof throwing molotov cocktails and firing down on the military. I'm not sure who I believe in this story... :roll:
Took them 80 some years, the terrorist organization MB, to get into power... and they lost it within a year. Now like little children they will throw a hissy fit about it the only way people like them know how... lie and cause violence. Hamas and Hezbollah should be proud to see the MB hasn't lost their way.
As for who to believe i suggest you turn your bullshit detector on when dealing with muslims they speak fluent bullshit.
This 12 year old kid will tell you what is going on in Egypt-
[youtube:blv67uiy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I[/youtube:blv67uiy]
So you think this 12 year old kid is speaking fluent bullshit as well, or is he one of the good ones?
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "baronvonrort"This 12 year old kid will tell you what is going on in Egypt-
Kids like that are the hope of the future. Let's just hope that there are more minds like his in Egypt, and that they eventually prevail. (I don't see any hope of a non-Sharia Egypt in the immediate future.)
He's certainly brighter than I was when I was 12.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "baronvonrort"Quote from: "Shiranu"Muslim Brotherhood supporters throw opposition off of roofs, kill at least two. Like I said a few days ago, the MB is shipping in thugs from around Egypt to cause as much chaos and violence in Cairo as possible.
And I'm sure you guys have heard about the violence where Morsi was being held... the MB saying the military just started randomly shooting into a crowd of women and children, the military and witnesses saying MB supporters were on the roof throwing molotov cocktails and firing down on the military. I'm not sure who I believe in this story... :roll:
Took them 80 some years, the terrorist organization MB, to get into power... and they lost it within a year. Now like little children they will throw a hissy fit about it the only way people like them know how... lie and cause violence. Hamas and Hezbollah should be proud to see the MB hasn't lost their way.
As for who to believe i suggest you turn your bullshit detector on when dealing with muslims they speak fluent bullshit.
This 12 year old kid will tell you what is going on in Egypt-
[youtube:1m8jk6gg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I[/youtube:1m8jk6gg]
So you think this 12 year old kid is speaking fluent bullshit as well, or is he one of the good ones?
If you listen to what the kid says in the video he does not agree with wife beating which allah the most merciful of those who show mercy allows.
Quran 4:34 is the verse where allah gives permission to beat your wife if you fear disobedience.
//http://www.quran.com/4/34
I doubt this kid is a muslim,muslims dont say allah or Mohammad were wrong about anything.
The Muslim brothelhood are sunni/salafi Islam.
QuoteI doubt this kid is a muslim,muslims dont say allah or Mohammad were wrong about anything.
By that logic, then there are almost no Roman Catholics today either...
Quote from: "Shiranu"QuoteI doubt this kid is a muslim,muslims dont say allah or Mohammad were wrong about anything.
By that logic, then there are almost no Roman Catholics today either...
All the leftist americans have to offer in the Islam section of this forum is deflections to christians.
Quote from: "baronvonrort"Quote from: "Shiranu"QuoteI doubt this kid is a muslim,muslims dont say allah or Mohammad were wrong about anything.
By that logic, then there are almost no Roman Catholics today either...
All the leftist americans have to offer in the Islam section of this forum is deflections to christians.
By that logic, there's no true Jews either.
I would say Buddhists as well, but it is so lax on rules I am not sure that one would make sense.
Your move.
You do understand that Egypt is about 94% Muslim, right? So the vast majority of those protesting the Islamists are Muslim, right? What? Muslims who don't want Theocracy, you say? It can't be!!!
The kids name is Ali Ahmed. He sure aint no Irish Catholic.
What's this world coming to when 12 year old infidels can question the word of Allah? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! :evil:
Mixing metaphors can be hazardous to your health. God forbids it. :)
Quote from: "Jmpty"You do understand that Egypt is about 94% Muslim, right? So the vast majority of those protesting the Islamists are Muslim, right? What? Muslims who don't want Theocracy, you say? It can't be!!!
The kids name is Ali Ahmed. He sure aint no Irish Catholic.
You damned American leftist... you cant compare Islam to anything else, it is an organization of pure evil the world has never seen the likes before!
History repeats itself, unless its an organization you dislike and then history could have never invented anything so vile...
Quote from: "baronvonrort"If you listen to what the kid says in the video he does not agree with wife beating which allah the most merciful of those who show mercy allows.
Quran 4:34 is the verse where allah gives permission to beat your wife if you fear disobedience.
//http://www.quran.com/4/34
I doubt this kid is a muslim,muslims dont say allah or Mohammad were wrong about anything.
And Jews can't disagree with Yahweh on anything, but how many Jewish men do you know who'll have their wives killed if they merely suspect infidelity? (The OT tells them that they can.)