I dunno if this has been talked about already here, but for those of you who don't know Texas recently passed a bill that put severe restrictions on abortion.
one of the biggest things is that its requiring all mothers to give a funeral for the aborted fetus, and cremation regardless of time passed
does the state really have the legal right to enforce that?
Yes and no. This is the existing law, not something proposed ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Senate_Bill_5 ... see the last sentence for the current situation.
Technically, a state can pass any laws it wants, and until a State or Federal court quashes all or part of it, it is law. Welcome to democracy.
Requiring a proper funeral for an aborted fetus seems like a lot of unnecessary fal der ral, but it does establish with great finality that an unborn fetus is a person. After all, you wouldn't have a funeral for an unperson.
And by having a funeral, it creates a venue for protests and shame that could not otherwise be heaped on any woman who doesn't want to bear a child. Such wickedness would simply pass by unnoticed. But with a forced funeral, fundamentalists can attend and scream, "Whore!"
Quote from: SGOS on June 15, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
Requiring a proper funeral for an aborted fetus seems like a lot of unnecessary fal der ral, but it does establish with great finality that an unborn fetus is a person. After all, you wouldn't have a funeral for an unperson.
And by having a funeral, it creates a venue for protests and shame that could not otherwise be heaped on any woman who doesn't want to bear a child. Such wickedness would simply pass by unnoticed. But with a forced funeral, fundamentalists can attend and scream, "Whore!"
Yes, much like the Scarlet Letter ;-( Japanese mothers who abort, optionally set up memorials for their departed pregnancies. They are more civilized than the Americans. To us, human beings are cattle.
I would tell the funeral home I cannot pay them, but go ahead anyway. See how that works.
I know it's a state vs federal issue but to me it seems cruel and unusual
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on June 15, 2017, 05:43:09 PM
I know it's a state vs federal issue but to me it seems cruel and unusual
Yes, the powerful hate the weak, the wealthy hate the poor ... demons hate angels too.
Quote from: aitm on June 15, 2017, 04:46:46 PM
I would tell the funeral home I cannot pay them, but go ahead anyway. See how that works.
We have resumed debt prison, and the government can charge you for its services and lock you up until you pay.
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
Yes, much like the Scarlet Letter ;-( Japanese mothers who abort, optionally set up memorials for their departed pregnancies. They are more civilized than the Americans. To us, human beings are cattle.
I guess some would measure civilization by standards that don't impress me.
Quote from: SGOS on June 16, 2017, 07:04:42 AM
I guess some would measure civilization by standards that don't impress me.
There are cultural practices and artifacts that don't impress me either. This isn't limited to non-US cultures. Female circumcision for instance. But unless you are a woman who has had an abortion ... your opinion isn't needed (and I didn't give my opinion either, just noted a practice) in regards to what they do after an abortion.
Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2017, 07:10:19 AM
There are cultural practices and artifacts that don't impress me either. This isn't limited to non-US cultures. Female circumcision for instance. But unless you are a woman who has had an abortion ... your opinion isn't needed (and I didn't give my opinion either, just noted a practice) in regards to what they do after an abortion.
I agree that male opinions on abortion are irrelevant. But in your opinion, "They are more civilized than the Americans," uses a Japanese abortion ritual as the unit of measurement for this comparison.
I would by no means call the Japanese more civilized than Americans. At best it's a wash.
To answer ops question, yes until a higher court decides it violates a federal law.
Also, autocorrect to freak law. That sounds like a better system of law... whips and hot wax are now mandatory. And nipple clamps.
Quote from: SGOS on June 16, 2017, 07:48:35 AM
I agree that male opinions on abortion are irrelevant. But in your opinion, "They are more civilized than the Americans," uses a Japanese abortion ritual as the unit of measurement for this comparison.
Post abortion ritual ... rituals are a part of how most people live. Mind you, the Japanese aren't perfect, nobody is. But Americans are ... culturally barbaric in many respects. Most of us are of Kurgan descent.
Of course, chauvinism being what it is, Japanese figure they are the master race. Americans future they are post-racial ... are the master nation. Both are wrong.
I fucking hate people.
Quote from: Mermaid on June 16, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
I fucking hate people.
I wish people were nicer too. I understand where you are coming from (somewhat).
I think there are reasons to think things directly, and reasons to pretend to think things for political purposes. I accept the former as honest and despise the latter as cynical and hypocritical. The people who object to the beneficial works of Planned Parenthood for the indirect reason of abortion assistance for political support reasons are beyond contempt.
If they would state their actual reasons for defunding Planned Parenthood, there could be a debate on the subject. But they would lose that debate, So they have to use subterfuge.
And THAT is what I dislike.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 20, 2017, 04:34:59 AM
So they have to use subterfuge.
And THAT is what I dislike.
Perhaps half the time people cover their real motivations because they somehow sense their real motivations are much more vulgar and self demeaning than they want to admit.
I watched with great interest and satisfaction as conservatives fought the gay rights issue with a veritable arsenal of semantics and bullshit that covered up their real motivations. At first they fought for the glory of god, the "true" definition of marriage, family values, protecting the rights of children.
As they started to lose their grip on the status quo that carried them for generations, their defense moved an inch or two toward honesty: "protecting their religious freedom," but that was still a bullshit subterfuge for "I have to be able to discriminate against people who have done me no personal harm, because sometimes, you know, you just hate certain kinds of people and don't want them to have what you have."
It's kind of odd that now that their arguments better reflect their truly vulgar emotions, they are actually gaining some political traction with the "religious freedom of discrimination" bullshit. (The power of honesty, perhaps?) I hope this signals the final phases of the debate, but you never know. These people have a lot of hatred for other people, and they desperately need someone to help them channel that hate.
Jealousy and hate go back to Caine ... it isn't stopping because of "progress".
Quote from: SGOS on June 20, 2017, 06:30:06 AM
Perhaps half the time people cover their real motivations because they somehow sense their real motivations are much more vulgar and self demeaning than they want to admit.
I watched with great interest and satisfaction as conservatives fought the gay rights issue with a veritable arsenal of semantics and bullshit that covered up their real motivations. At first they fought for the glory of god, the "true" definition of marriage, family values, protecting the rights of children.
As they started to lose their grip on the status quo that carried them for generations, their defense moved an inch or two toward honesty: "protecting their religious freedom," but that was still a bullshit subterfuge for "I have to be able to discriminate against people who have done me no personal harm, because sometimes, you know, you just hate certain kinds of people and don't want them to have what you have."
It's kind of odd that now that their arguments better reflect their truly vulgar emotions, they are actually gaining some political traction with the "religious freedom of discrimination" bullshit. (The power of honesty, perhaps?) I hope this signals the final phases of the debate, but you never know. These people have a lot of hatred for other people, and they desperately need someone to help them channel that hate.
First, something funny. I'm getting good at guessing who will "like" a post before I see who it is.
Now for the rest...
When people hate something, it is usually not for the real reasons at first. The reasons are general and hard to argue against. Like "I hate gays because they are disruptive to society". Then you start to pin them down about some facts. They get a bit more honest. "I hate gays because one was disruptive to my family".
So you ask more questions about that. You finally find out that one of their children are gay and they are embarrassed. Or they are and had a hard time admitting it.
Almost any social question goes that way. Different religions, different politics, different home styles. Anything. But the fact is that most people will slowly surrender their objections to others in the direction of rationality if they are forced to think about it long enough.
But there ARE people who will never let go of issues. We call them politicians. They get one that puts them in office and they won't let go of it until the die in their office chair.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 20, 2017, 07:37:31 AM
Almost any social question goes that way. Different religions, different politics, different home styles. Anything. But the fact is that most people will slowly surrender their objections to others in the direction of rationality if they are forced to think about it long enough.
That's right. I just latch onto the gay issue first because it's such a clear cut example of that social dynamic. And you are right that some people surrender their objections and achieve self realization of their true motivations, and it's clear that this group does by studying the gay rights example.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 20, 2017, 07:37:31 AM
But there ARE people who will never let go of issues. We call them politicians.
Unfortunately, that is also true, and it's true of some non politicians too. Some because their true motivations are much more ingrained, and some because they are manipulated in a large part by the politicians who want to perpetuate those motivations for personal gain. You can't win them all to reason, but sometimes you can win enough to make a difference, although it is often like pulling teeth.