An obvious argument against the morality of christianity that many pass up is this.
"Would you go to hell if you didn't know about the story of jesus and god."
If yes
"why would god punish someone for something they can't control?"
if no
"why would you spread this message then, if people would go to heaven regardless if they don't know, why would you tell them?
(This isn't an argument original to me)
Quote from: Jannabear on May 29, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
An obvious argument against the morality of christianity that many pass up is this.
"Would you go to hell if you didn't know about the story of jesus and god."
If yes
"why would god punish someone for something they can't control?"
if no
"why would you spread this message then, if people would go to heaven regardless if they don't know, why would you tell them?
(This isn't an argument original to me)
No this isn't original to you. But it is an interesting argument anyway. I have always chuckled about the answers of of my christian friends try to pass off--tie themselves into all kinds of knots.
No different that the idea of the flood. Million of little children HAD to suffer. God made sure of this. What was the point when an almighty god could as easily waved his hand, or….even easier for a god…make himself more believable eh?
A Christian woman told me one time, if you never heard of Jesus and God, you go to Hell. That's why they have missionaries they send to every corner of the Earth. Missionaries even out the playing field and give everyone exposure to Christianity. But then, even Christians in her own church told me they often disagreed with her on some issues. I'm just pointing to her, because she's the only Christian that I asked. When I asked her about undiscovered Amazon tribes (this conversation took place 55 years ago when we were still discovering Amazon tribes), she shrugged her shoulders, and just repeated that they went to Hell. "Win a few lose a few. We do what we can. Can't save everybody," and she followed that up with a vindictive grin that sent shivers down my spine.
Imperialism is a gift that keeps on giving. And religion is a handmaiden to imperialism (see Constantine and Umar).
I had this conversation recently. If people who haven't heard the gospel get a free pass, then we should burn every Bible and hide the gospel as best as we can. Otherwise, we risk people hearing it and rejecting it.
If people go to Hell even when they've never even had any reason to think that Jesus exists, then God is a monster.
If God only allows good people a free pass, then why do we need Jesus? Good works are enough to save.
No matter how you spin it, you can't get around this issue.
Quote from: Baruch on May 30, 2016, 10:34:27 AM
Imperialism is a gift that keeps on giving. And religion is a handmaiden to imperialism (see Constantine and Umar).
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/Guinness_2006/evil-pope-praying-for-the-poor-from_zps3dcd189b.jpg)
Quote from: aitm on May 29, 2016, 09:54:56 PM
No different that the idea of the flood. Million of little children HAD to suffer. God made sure of this. What was the point when an almighty god could as easily waved his hand, or….even easier for a god…make himself more believable eh?
"Need an ark? I Noah guy..."
:celebrate:
Quote from: Jannabear on May 29, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
An obvious argument against the morality of christianity that many pass up is this.
"Would you go to hell if you didn't know about the story of jesus and god."
If yes
"why would god punish someone for something they can't control?"
if no
"why would you spread this message then, if people would go to heaven regardless if they don't know, why would you tell them?
(This isn't an argument original to me)
From a Catholic perspective - No, you won't go to hell just because you don't know about Jesus and God. You spread the word because there are better ways to heaven than others. What I find interesting is how people perceive heaven and hell. I'm leaning toward a state of mind developed by the way you live your life. Is that something that persists after you die, and if so, in what way? Is heaven harps, clouds and winged angels, or is it the positive affect you have on others during your life?
Quote from: Jack89 on June 09, 2016, 12:37:11 PM
What I find interesting is how people perceive heaven and hell.
I've spent time in the past inventing concepts of Heaven, but not so much Hell. But no one knows anything about them. That's "nothing", nothing at all, as in zip, nada. There has never been an eye witness account. It's likely a myth, and even if it was real, you would have to have a functioning brain to experience them. The best that science tells us (It's only the best we can do, since only religion claims perfect knowledge [you know... religion; that concept invented by cave men]) is that when you die, your brain stops functioning. The electrochemical circuits shut down and no consciousness experience exists. Of course, science can be wrong, as any wizard or alchemist will gladly tell you.
As best I can tell from personal experience, being dead is like being in a dreamless sleep ... which pretty much means you have no awareness and no thought. But that might be better than being aware and thinking about that awareness ... depends.
Quote from: Baruch on June 09, 2016, 06:19:31 PM
As best I can tell from personal experience, being dead is like being in a dreamless sleep ...
You were dead? We won't know anything about being dead, as our brains will cease to function.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 09, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
You were dead? We won't know anything about being dead, as our brains will cease to function.
I don't "know" anything about dreamless sleep either ... but I do it several times every night (so medicine tells me). My personal experience, positive or negative (I was describing dreamless sleep negatively ... not awake, not dreaming) is pretty reliable on this point. Your epistemology only colors inside the box I see. Do you see death as being something different that dreamless sleep? If you do, on what justification sir ;-) Or maybe you are dreamless sleep agnostic, or death agnostic?
Quote from: Baruch on June 09, 2016, 06:26:21 PM
Do you see death as being something different that dreamless sleep? If you do, on what justification sir ;-) Or maybe you are dreamless sleep agnostic, or death agnostic?
When you are having dreamless sleep, you are alive.
How did you get personal experience being dead?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 09, 2016, 06:28:58 PM
When you are having dreamless sleep, you are alive.
How did you get personal experience being dead?
Drums fingers on desk ... I am making a reasonable extrapolation. That and I have been to a few funerals.
Quote from: SGOS on June 09, 2016, 01:44:00 PM
I've spent time in the past inventing concepts of Heaven, but not so much Hell. But no one knows anything about them. That's "nothing", nothing at all, as in zip, nada. There has never been an eye witness account. It's likely a myth, and even if it was real, you would have to have a functioning brain to experience them. The best that science tells us (It's only the best we can do, since only religion claims perfect knowledge [you know... religion; that concept invented by cave men]) is that when you die, your brain stops functioning. The electrochemical circuits shut down and no consciousness experience exists. Of course, science can be wrong, as any wizard or alchemist will gladly tell you.
You're right, no one knows. What I believe, and very strongly, is that what we do when we're alive can have significant influence on others, immediately and for generations to come, for good or bad. Just the smallest kindness or cruelty can have significant impact. For me, in a sort of abstract way, this is a kind of afterlife.
Quote from: Jack89 on June 09, 2016, 12:37:11 PM
Is that something that persists after you die, and if so, in what way? Is heaven harps, clouds and winged angels, or is it the positive affect you have on others during your life?
But your religion is not needed for this to be true. Heaven, is an obvious fiction--but experiencing it in your life is just that--the positive effect you have on others. Treat your fellow man with respect, kindness and a helping attitude--why? Because that is simply the right thing to do. I do not need god or jesus or allah, or buddha or a priesthood to tell me that or enforce it. From what I've experienced religion is a hindrance, not a help.
Elon Musk thinks the universe is a hologram so we might be nothing but a figment of some AI's imagination. I'm fairly sure when we find out the ultimate truth its going to really suck.
Quote from: Jack89 on June 09, 2016, 09:33:41 PM
For me, in a sort of abstract way, this is a kind of afterlife.
Do you listen to the Grateful Dead?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akI32gY0VnU
Quote from: stromboli on June 09, 2016, 11:45:28 PM
Elon Musk thinks the universe is a hologram so we might be nothing but a figment of some AI's imagination. I'm fairly sure when we find out the ultimate truth its going to really suck.
I was way ahead of my time. I said the same thing to my wife while we were dating over 30 years ago. I guess the hope was, holograms don't have real pain, just the imaginary kind. My understanding of how things are matured since then.
Quote from: Baruch on June 10, 2016, 07:06:58 AM
I was way ahead of my time. I said the same thing to my wife while we were dating over 30 years ago. I guess the hope was, holograms don't have real pain, just the imaginary kind. My understanding of how things are matured since then.
Nah--not a hologram. I still vote for being in an atom in a giants toe.
I just accept that the Abrahamic religions make no rational sense. Religion makes sense to the believer the way a dream makes sense to the dreamer.
Quote from: Jannabear on May 29, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
An obvious argument against the morality of christianity that many pass up is this.
"Would you go to hell if you didn't know about the story of jesus and god."
If yes
"why would god punish someone for something they can't control?"
if no
"why would you spread this message then, if people would go to heaven regardless if they don't know, why would you tell them?
(This isn't an argument original to me)
Problem #1 - You don't go to Hell for not knowing the story of Jesus. You go to Hell to pay for the crimes you've committed against God, for which you are definitely guilty. He is under no obligation to provide a way out. He is justified in punishing the guilty.
Problem #2 - God doesn't punish people for things that they
can't control. He punishes people for things that they
won't control. You are able to choose to do either good or bad. But you will act according to your nature. The fact that you won't choose to act perfectly against your nature for all time is less about your ability and more about you will. Your ability is always animated by your will, and so the problem is not properly located in your ability but in your will. Every fallen human being will act consistently with their nature and all fallen human beings will ratify that nature in their own lives.
Speaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people. On the other hand, if people are determined to maintain their rebellion against God, I simply move on.
In His Grip,
Gomtuu77
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Problem #1 - You don't go to Hell for not knowing the story of Jesus. You go to Hell to pay for the crimes you've committed against God, for which you are definitely guilty. He is under no obligation to provide a way out. He is justified in punishing the guilty.
Nice sidestep around the real point. God seems very reluctant to come down an tell people personally that they have done things wrong so that they may, well, correct their behavior. That is,
unless you have been told about the Christian message, and even then God takes a very hands-off approach. It's not really
God telling you that you're doing something wrong, it's people speaking in
God's name that are doing so, and their credentials are highly dubious. In short, your God looks very much like one who doesn't really give a crap what people here on earth do. Until such time as God is personally and actively intervening in people's lives (and no, that weakshit "commanding" you alude to is not this), I don't really concern myself with keeping myself not "being guilty" in this God's eyes because this God is not interested in any kind of justice.
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Problem #2 - God doesn't punish people for things that they can't control. He punishes people for things that they won't control. You are able to choose to do either good or bad. But you will act according to your nature.
Do you really not recognize the contradiction inherent in these two statements?
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
The fact that you won't choose to act perfectly against your nature for all time is less about your ability and more about you will. Your ability is always animated by your will, and so the problem is not properly located in your ability but in your will. Every fallen human being will act consistently with their nature and all fallen human beings will ratify that nature in their own lives.
Yes, I know you consider free will to be a Get God Out of Jail Free Card, but it doesn't work. If your free will is able to get you to act against your nature, then you really haven't acted against your nature, because your nature is for your will to be stronger than your base instincts. Your free will is part of you, part of your nature. It
cannot act against your nature because it is an
integral part of your nature. Therefore, your can't/won't distinction is a distinction without a difference. In the face of an all-knowing God, a person who "won't" control their nature is indistinguishable from a person who "can't" control their nature and even a person who "can and does" control their nature, because in all their free wills are of a nature to not act against their nature â€" they could hardly do otherwise.
The compatabilists are the only philosophical school to have come up with a coherent definition of free will, and that free will is as a slave to determinism and circumstance as any other. A person with compatabilist free will is one who is conerned with serving their own nature and not those of others, whatever that nature may be. It is the only free will worth having. The metaphysical free will that makes this theory work is an externality that imposes its wishes upon a person regardless of what their nature may wish â€" such a person is not free, but a slave.
Your God thus values cognative slavery as it values material slavery. Such a God is not worthy of worship, and to worship such a God is to support cognative slavery and therefore evil in any sane morality.
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Speaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people. On the other hand, if people are determined to maintain their rebellion against God, I simply move on.
We do not rebel against God, but against you. You cannot rebel against a being that does not exist, or you think that does not exist (makes little difference). Furthermore, if your God did exist and did lay down these laws, then there are good reasons to rebel against him.
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
In His Grip,
This slogan tells us a lot about the cognative slavery that you willingly submit to, and therefore a lot about how much value your philosophy has. That is, none at all.
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Problem #1 - You don't go to Hell for not knowing the story of Jesus. You go to Hell to pay for the crimes you've committed against God, for which you are definitely guilty. He is under no obligation to provide a way out. He is justified in punishing the guilty.
Problem #2 - God doesn't punish people for things that they can't control. He punishes people for things that they won't control. You are able to choose to do either good or bad. But you will act according to your nature. The fact that you won't choose to act perfectly against your nature for all time is less about your ability and more about you will. Your ability is always animated by your will, and so the problem is not properly located in your ability but in your will. Every fallen human being will act consistently with their nature and all fallen human beings will ratify that nature in their own lives.
Speaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people. On the other hand, if people are determined to maintain their rebellion against God, I simply move on.
In His Grip,
Gomtuu77
You didn't answer the question. You're not going to impress anyone here by changing the subject. :rolleyes:
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Speaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people. On the other hand, if people are determined to maintain their rebellion against God, I simply move on.
In His Grip,
Gomtuu77
Well, then, Gom...............move along. Commanded by a fiction is quite the deal. I'm not impressed. "In His Grip"--why don't you learn to masturbate by yourself?????
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PMSpeaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people.
"Let me infect you with my primitive and irrational beliefs. It's for your own good"
Quote from: gomtuu77 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
Problem #1 - You don't go to Hell for not knowing the story of Jesus. You go to Hell to pay for the crimes you've committed against God, for which you are definitely guilty. He is under no obligation to provide a way out. He is justified in punishing the guilty.
Problem #2 - God doesn't punish people for things that they can't control. He punishes people for things that they won't control. You are able to choose to do either good or bad. But you will act according to your nature. The fact that you won't choose to act perfectly against your nature for all time is less about your ability and more about you will. Your ability is always animated by your will, and so the problem is not properly located in your ability but in your will. Every fallen human being will act consistently with their nature and all fallen human beings will ratify that nature in their own lives.
Speaking for myself, the reason I tell people about this is because I'm commanded to do so, and because I care about other people. On the other hand, if people are determined to maintain their rebellion against God, I simply move on.
In His Grip,
Gomtuu77
You obviously need to hear the good word of our Lord and Lizard.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/59/e7/e8/59e7e864a60c470c0cbac677c8038d9a.jpg)
1. You can't commit crimes against a god you know doesn't exist.
2. Punishment by a deity is purely theoretical. anyone obeying the laws of the country by their moral standards has not sinned.
3. Because of 1-2 above, atheists are by default sinless.
Quote from: stromboli on July 05, 2016, 12:59:12 AM
1. You can't commit crimes against a god you know doesn't exist.
2. Punishment by a deity is purely theoretical. anyone obeying the laws of the country by their moral standards has not sinned.
3. Because of 1-2 above, atheists are by default sinless.
Ah, but it is impossible to live a life without sin. Just the other day I was driving and I looked down, I was doing fully 3 miles an hour over the speed limit. I, of course, went straight to the court house and begged forgiveness from the judge. But the non-believers seem to have a problem with this. You try to be a good person and live a good life, seeking forgiveness whenever you sin and you get punished for it because the righteous are persecuted. If a judge calls me to meet with him, that's a trial, but visit his house begging forgiveness more than a couple dozen times and it's apparently "stalking".
As I have mentioned, my Facebook feed is typically a scrolling litany of religious exaltations and inspirational memes. My friends keep cleaning out the muck sink for me but this is often how it goes down:
https://youtu.be/UI0FSuTCAIw
Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 12, 2016, 03:06:59 PM
As I have mentioned, my Facebook feed is typically a scrolling litany of religious exaltations and inspirational memes. My friends keep cleaning out the muck sink for me but this is often how it goes down:
That was beautiful, man.