Why trying to help poor countries might actually hurt them

[josephpalazzo]

Not exactly.  Immigration doesn't always work out.  It didn't work out well for my Czech ancestors, their homestead land was poor for agriculture and they were forced off the land they came so far to get "for the cost of their labor to farm it".  From their POV, if I were Syrian or Iraqi I would have gotten myself to Europe by hook or by crook long ago.  Similarly Mexicans and other Central Americans ... are smart to come to the US ... I hear more and more Spanish and don't mind it one bit.  If I were Mexican today, I would get the hell out too, but Canada might be nicer than the US.

So no, W Europe isn't better and N America isn't better, but for people who want to better themselves, even if they are elite in their own society ... the perceived opportunities might be better here rather than there.  What actually happens when one arrives ... varies.

But the refugees are not choosing Saudi Arabia, or Qatar, or any of the Gulf states, even though these countries are quite rich, have the same religion (Islam) as many of the refugees. So why Europe? Of course remove the ocean, and most would be flocking to the US. So how do you explain that? I know you're not comfortable with the word "better", but how would you describe it?

[jonb]

My observations on Saudi Arabia.
Saudi is a hierarchical society, true the rulers get ratification from the religious authorities, and use that connection to administer but the system of control is essentially like any mediaeval European monarchy rather than being particularly Islamic in nature.

At the Top we have the royals they are more or less above the law. For instance women in the Royal family drive, and have cars with number plates which the police are not allowed to stop. A law might be invoked in a dispute between royals, but the battles are like those in a medieval kings court and it is about which set of courtiers are in, or have lost favour.

Then we have the connected Saudis, they are subject to the laws, but can use favours from above to get around it, but that would cause a loss of favour, depending on the seriousness of the charge, and their usefulness they can loose their favoured position.

Americans, subject to the law outside their enclosures, but the special relationship with America usually allows them to just be exported from the country rather than suffer under the law.
Europeans and wealthy muslims, subject to the law outside designated areas and sometimes within, they do have some connections so can escape the law, but on occasion like with any dictatorship arbitrary individuals can be made an example of when the authorities want to bring the whole group back under control.

Unconnected Saudis are capable of bribing minor officials, but generally come under the full force of the Law.

Other islamic people the most hated group in Saudi not wanted and not trusted, unless going to or from Mecca and spending money or selling things cheep.

Non Islamic workers basically indentured slaves.

This is how things were twenty-thirty years ago or at least how I saw them and others told me, and I don't think they have changed much since.
For all the rhetoric it is not particularly islamic in nature and for most muslims not a destination of choice at all.
The House of Saudi is hated by most in the islamic world, but has money and power, think of Henry the 8th or Philip of Spain.

[pr126]

Josephpalazzo wrote:

But the refugees are not choosing Saudi Arabia, or Qatar, or any of the Gulf states, even though these countries are quite rich, have the same religion (Islam) as many of the refugees. So why Europe?

To spread Islam. Islam is expansionist. Imperialistic. Totalitarian.


See here:

* The Koran includes instructions for its own spread.

* Permission to spread Islam by war.

* Lands must be conquered.

* Islam must be your first allegiance.

* Islam commands its followers to create a government that supports it.

* Islam must always be defended.

source

Europe must be turned into an Islamic hegemony, with the willing permission of the present EU govenments.
I cannot believe that Merkel, Hollande, Cameron et al are unaware of this.

The US, Canada, Australia, etc. are also on the 'to do' list. Europe is more convenient being closer.

[josephpalazzo]

@pr126

I'm waiting for Baruch to answer.

[Baruch]

But the refugees are not choosing Saudi Arabia, or Qatar, or any of the Gulf states, even though these countries are quite rich, have the same religion (Islam) as many of the refugees. So why Europe? Of course remove the ocean, and most would be flocking to the US. So how do you explain that? I know you're not comfortable with the word "better", but how would you describe it?

Difference between "are better" and "think better".  Just because many immigrants for many reasons want to get to the EU or the US ... doesn't mean we "are better" ... it is because the immigrants have been sold, even indirectly by advertisement, that the EU or US are utopias.  Land speculators did the same with potential immigrants from Europe, and some of my ancestors fell for the false advertising.  No matter where you live, you put in your 40-80 years and then die.

Of course this won't impress any chauvinist ... Denmark #1, Denmark #1 (just because I don't want to point fingers).  Also Jonb answered quite well why all Muslims don't immediately move to Qatar.  Have you ever seen any pictures of that place?

[josephpalazzo]

Difference between "are better" and "think better".  Just because many immigrants for many reasons want to get to the EU or the US ... doesn't mean we "are better" ... it is because the immigrants have been sold, even indirectly by advertisement, that the EU or US are utopias.  Land speculators did the same with potential immigrants from Europe, and some of my ancestors fell for the false advertising.  No matter where you live, you put in your 40-80 years and then die.

US/EU ads in Syria??? You must be kidding. I think you're barking on the wrong tree. They're going there because they know these are open societies, contrary to the Gulf states, which is a bastion of oppression.

[jonb]

This is a map of the population densities around Syria. One might notice that there are large areas of very low population, deserts.
Now place yourself in Syria you want to get out are you going to go into the desert where there is nothing not even water and presumably if you are somehow able to carry all you need are you going to travel so far just to get to the nearest points in Saudi that have any population at all with people that can help you.
Or are you going to pop over the boarder into Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey.
There is another choice to go to Iraq where the fighting is as bad.

Funnily enough most Syrian refugees go ...........




Can  you guess?






Rumble of drums . .  . . .. . . .







to......



wait for it. . .         wait for it







Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey



Was that such a big surprise?

[pr126]

Interesting. So how come they end up in Europe?
Could it be that those arriving in Europe are not refugees at all?
Opportunitist perhaps?

[josephpalazzo]

This is a map of the population densities around Syria. One might notice that there are large areas of very low population, deserts.
Now place yourself in Syria you want to get out are you going to go into the desert where there is nothing not even water and presumably if you are somehow able to carry all you need are you going to travel so far just to get to the nearest points in Saudi that have any population at all with people that can help you.
Or are you going to pop over the boarder into Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey.
There is another choice to go to Iraq where the fighting is as bad.

Point taken.

Aside note: I appreciate this part of your post for its objectivity. You can skip the needless fanfare at the end of your post as it doesn't contribute anything.

[Baruch]

Interesting. So how come they end up in Europe?
Could it be that those arriving in Europe are not refugees at all?
Opportunitist perhaps?

We are all opportunists ... some are just more motivated by carrot vs stick.

[Baruch]

US/EU ads in Syria??? You must be kidding. I think you're barking on the wrong tree. They're going there because they know these are open societies, contrary to the Gulf states, which is a bastion of oppression.

No need for advertising .. the evil MSM shows us all living like in the Dallas TV show.

[josephpalazzo]

No need for advertising .. the evil MSM shows us all living like in the Dallas TV show.

Dallas was all cowboy style, don't know if that would consider as good advertising but then again, compared to Assad, anything would be an improvement...

[Baruch]

Dallas was all cowboy style, don't know if that would consider as good advertising but then again, compared to Assad, anything would be an improvement...

Generally evil rulers are intolerant of rebellions.  The American rebels managed to tar and feather old King George with that epithet.  And young Assad ... may have had no alternative when old Assad died ... does Kim Jong Un really have any choice?  We will never know what a wonderful father Hitler could have been ;-)

[josephpalazzo]

Generally evil rulers are intolerant of rebellions. 

It's one way of seeing things. But generally, no law, no authority, and society will fast track into chaos. People want stability, on the political level, so they can live their lives on a personal level - have jobs, raise family, buy a house, etc. The problem with dictators is they don't know when to quit. That's why democracy is preferable, not that's perfect but it allows a bloodless transition of power.

The American rebels managed to tar and feather old King George with that epithet.

Those Americans were badass. One legacy is that they built a democracy, one that stood alone on this planet for several decades before it was emulated elsewhere.

And young Assad ... may have had no alternative when old Assad died ... does Kim Jong Un really have any choice? 

Yes he had, young Assad could have been a reformer, a benevolent dictator, a philosopher-king. We all make choices in life, so it goes for those who inherit the governance of a country.

[drunkenshoe]

Help is needed for publics relations. It's a little part of the big whole of "Hey look, we are distiributing democracy and freedom around and providing some aid for the ones we don't want to invade, because it is not profitable".