Hi

[Unbeliever]

Arik has his (her?) beliefs, whatever they happen to be, and they really don't affect me in any case. After all, Arik came here to our forum, we didn't seek him (her?) out to try to force our beliefs (or lack of same) on Arik. I have yet to see a coherent statement, much less an argument, from him (her?). It's hard to have a discussion when communication isn't really happening.

[aitm]

The arrogance of humanity at its highest...is the belief that we are far more than the squirrel or acorn. We are not. The universe has shown we have no more nor less than anything else. But because we have achieved where the rock has not...we compare ourselves to gods....but still bury as us the rocks that we are.

[Baruch]

The arrogance of humanity at its highest...is the belief that we are far more than the squirrel or acorn. We are not. The universe has shown we have no more nor less than anything else. But because we have achieved where the rock has not...we compare ourselves to gods....but still bury as us the rocks that we are.

I consider most humans as less valuable than a good barbecued kielbasa.

Only materialists are gods ... because Plato's magic organ, allows them to see the Eternal Forms.

[Baruch]

Yes, I do understand your point--I have from the beginning.  I would imagine you would say that things like emotions and consciousness are not physical and cannot be explained by science. 

Wrong.  Everything--EVERYTHING--originates from a physical cause.  There is no supernatural.  There is no spiritual.  Emotions have their origins from chemicals.  Everything does.  This is the simple point you have a problem with--you simply don't want to understand this simple fact.  You simply want to believe otherwise.  Feel free to do so, but your beliefs are a pure fiction.

Every human emotion, thought and behavior can be explained by psychology.  But it hasn't been demonstrated (other than there is no alternative argument) that materialism explains psychology.  As Spinoza would point out, regarding Descartes dualism ... matter and mind are just two different ways of looking at something that isn't really describable by either category.

[Arik]

Yes, I do understand your point--I have from the beginning.  I would imagine you would say that things like emotions and consciousness are not physical and cannot be explained by science. 

Wrong.  Everything--EVERYTHING--originates from a physical cause.  There is no supernatural.  There is no spiritual.  Emotions have their origins from chemicals.  Everything does.  This is the simple point you have a problem with--you simply don't want to understand this simple fact.  You simply want to believe otherwise.  Feel free to do so, but your beliefs are a pure fiction.

Let me explain why your point doesn't make sense.

Here we got two things Mike.

On one side we got the matter on the other we got the consciousness.
There is no question that the consciousness is superior to the matter.
If you think the opposite then you can also say that a vehicle is superior to the driver.
As the driver or human created the car also the consciousness create the body.
This is science Mike not fantasies.
Now to say that everything originate from a physical cause is like to say that the vehicle originate the driver.
Can't you see how wrong you are?

Have you ever seen something infinitely inferior that give birth to something infinitely superior?
That would go against the very science that you believe in.
Science does not supports your believe Mike.

[aitm]

I have yet to see a coherent statement, much less an argument, from him (her?). It's hard to have a discussion when communication isn't really happening.

Your problem is you're not using your consciousness to understand the matter...or rather your matter is not understanding the consciousness of the matter....I mean it matters if the consciousness is not relative to the matter of the consciousness but it really matters......or some shit like that.

[Arik]

What is it you see as "the main human problem"?

Humans can not be satisfied with anything that is finite.
Materialist dream that anything material or physical will satisfied them but the fact that after a short time they will go back again and again in search of the object of their dreams clearly means that full and permanent satisfaction can not be achieved within the finite reality.
From this we can only deduct-conclude that only an infinite reality will be able to quench this human thirst and the infinite reality does not belong to this material-physical dimension so what?

So obviously the search to solve this human problem must be redirected in a different direction which is not physical nor material.

Most materialists say that they are quite happy as they are and with what they have and that is ok. with me.
The only thing that doesn't make sense is that sooner or later they will be sick and tired of all that and the change is unavoidable unless they sink down towards the animal life but again at the end the problem will pop up once again until reason prevail and they finally do the correct thing.
That is unavoidable.
Nobody like to sink down and live in the animal dimension that is why sooner or later the search will not be anymore external but internal.

[Arik]

Your problem is you're not using your consciousness to understand the matter...or rather your matter is not understanding the consciousness of the matter....I mean it matters if the consciousness is not relative to the matter of the consciousness but it really matters......or some shit like that.

Gee, that is very clever aitm.
I never thought about that.
I will have to rethink all over again.

Have a good happy new year anyway.

[Arik]

Consciousness is not the basis of religious thought.  Lack of it is. 

Throughout history, the progression of human understanding has been from superstition to factual understanding of nature.  Religion is the opposite, kicking and screaming all the way.  I don't really care how ignorant you are of facts or dealing with facts, as we learn more about nature every day, religion or spirituality (same thing really) become less and less relevant. 

My personal opinion is that superstitious people of all sorts (call it what you wish) are basically all the same.

Is quite bizarre Cavebear to hear that religion and spirituality are the same thing considering that you were unable or unwillingly  to explain the difference.

[Mike Cl]

Let me explain why your point doesn't make sense.

Here we got two things Mike.

On one side we got the matter on the other we got the consciousness.
There is no question that the consciousness is superior to the matter.
If you think the opposite then you can also say that a vehicle is superior to the driver.
As the driver or human created the car also the consciousness create the body.
This is science Mike not fantasies.
Now to say that everything originate from a physical cause is like to say that the vehicle originate the driver.
Can't you see how wrong you are?

Have you ever seen something infinitely inferior that give birth to something infinitely superior?
That would go against the very science that you believe in.
Science does not supports your believe Mike.

We do observe the universe from different directions.  What is this 'superior' that you clammer about???  What does that mean you.  Clearly, consciousness happens when the physical is arranged just so.  So, yes, consciousness is material based--as is all else.  There is no meaning in the universe.  It does not care about you in one way or another.  There is no purpose to the universe, it just is.  You create whatever meaning the universe has and only for you. 

Infinitely superior--what does than mean?  You love to cast about and label things as superior or inferior--to what?  To you, I guess.  And remember, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I think it to be true--or not.  That is evidence based, not wishful believing or faith.   

[Baruch]

We do observe the universe from different directions.  What is this 'superior' that you clammer about???  What does that mean you.  Clearly, consciousness happens when the physical is arranged just so.  So, yes, consciousness is material based--as is all else.  There is no meaning in the universe.  It does not care about you in one way or another.  There is no purpose to the universe, it just is.  You create whatever meaning the universe has and only for you. 

Infinitely superior--what does than mean?  You love to cast about and label things as superior or inferior--to what?  To you, I guess.  And remember, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I think it to be true--or not.  That is evidence based, not wishful believing or faith.

As an Atom, not a man, you are clearly superior ;-)  But only in the Marvel universe ;-)

Consciousness is entwined with matter.  You as a materialist, do consider something superior, namely, matter.  Bottom up analysis, which is fine, but not the same as top down analysis.  That is the difference between a theist and an atheist ... different methodological POV.  And both usually claim superiority, because .. monkeys.  Choosing one thing over another, on the one hand is preference, but on the other is prejudice.

[Mike Cl]

Consciousness is entwined with matter.  You as a materialist, do consider something superior, namely, matter.

Trying to make a point to you is like pissing into the wind. 

As a materialist I consider something superior, namely matter?   No.  I consider matter to be all there is.  So where and what is this choice I'm supposed to be making? Consciousness is intertwined with matter?  No shit.  Consciousness is derived from matter.  nature is all there is--otherwise there would be the supernatural; and that is simply fiction created by those who don't like reality and want to create their own.  Supernatural=fiction.  One does not chose to acknowledge matter--matter simply is and cares not at all that you acknowledge it or not.  Believing in it or not matters not to matter.  You are free to believe and have faith in whatever you want; if you use evidence to figure it out, you are left with only matter, for that is all there is.   

[Baruch]

Trying to make a point to you is like pissing into the wind. 

As a materialist I consider something superior, namely matter?   No.  I consider matter to be all there is.  So where and what is this choice I'm supposed to be making? Consciousness is intertwined with matter?  No shit.  Consciousness is derived from matter.  nature is all there is--otherwise there would be the supernatural; and that is simply fiction created by those who don't like reality and want to create their own.  Supernatural=fiction.  One does not chose to acknowledge matter--matter simply is and cares not at all that you acknowledge it or not.  Believing in it or not matters not to matter.  You are free to believe and have faith in whatever you want; if you use evidence to figure it out, you are left with only matter, for that is all there is.

Exactly.  Only White males exist ... we are that privileged!  See, how it sounds when you use different words?  There is only time, there is no space.  There is only America, there are no other countries ...

For Arik - in the US, there are conventional theists and conventional atheists.  Anyone who doesn't fit a strict materialist definition of atheism, but who is not a conventional theist, is spiritual.  Per the Pew Research paper last year, 56% of US is conventional theist, 10% are conventional atheist, and 33% are spiritual.

[Arik]

Trying to make a point to you is like pissing into the wind. 

As a materialist I consider something superior, namely matter?   No.  I consider matter to be all there is.  So where and what is this choice I'm supposed to be making? Consciousness is intertwined with matter?  No shit.  Consciousness is derived from matter.  nature is all there is--otherwise there would be the supernatural; and that is simply fiction created by those who don't like reality and want to create their own.  Supernatural=fiction.  One does not chose to acknowledge matter--matter simply is and cares not at all that you acknowledge it or not.  Believing in it or not matters not to matter.  You are free to believe and have faith in whatever you want; if you use evidence to figure it out, you are left with only matter, for that is all there is.

I find rather difficult to see people that say that matter is all there is.

Even zombies use a tiny bit of consciousness to walk to perceive some reality and to cause trouble.
Are you telling me that is the matter that make you think, eat, writing posts and all the rest?

Are you serious Mike?

[aitm]

Even zombies use a tiny bit of consciousness to walk ....

I sure hope you are saying that tongue in cheek......although as much as the rest of your stuff is bat shit crazy one never knows.