Jesus' Origin Story

[doorknob]

I would expect you to surmise as much.

Regardless of the misdirection of man, the truth still shines through the pages. Inspired is not synonymous with imagined, though the average translations seem somewhat off.



faith in selfless unity for good

I'm sorry but that is your warped opinion. Maybe the bible really speaks to you, how ever it does not speak to me. I have not found much wisdom in the bible and even if I had that doesn't "prove" that the bible is real. How do you know the bible was inspired by god? Because the pope told you so? There are many more scriptures besides what made it to the bible in other words the bible was edited by man. Probably a group of men decided what was "inspiring" and what wasn't. And they decided some of these things based on politics. That's not something inspired by god! That's picking and choosing your holy text!

Many of the events in the bible NEVER happened in real life. Exodus, complete bullshit. Creation story, complete bullshit. Noah's flood, also bullshit. The bible is filled with inaccuracies! And that is building up. Even if you could claim that the stories have valuable lessons from them "which they do not seem to as far as I'm concerned" and may be fiction but is still inspired by god, is still some ones opinion! The bible isn't inspiring to me. In fact now when I go back to read it I realize how laughable it is!

I've also seen some of the "wisdom" in the bible and it doesn't seem that wise to me. Also some of the "wise" messages of the bible conflict with each other. It seems like the authors of the bible didn't collaborate very well and didn't even know what, was what. Other wise you would not need the pope to explain it to you.

Another commonly pointed out problem of the bible is that it's lost in translation! Why would a divine being inspire something that could be misconstrued? You think that was wise? So the common person can't just pick up the bible and fully understand it's true meaning. It is the humans fault that they didn't get the proper message. Well no God didn't convey the message in a way that was timeless, universal, or easy to understand by all. That doesn't qualify as inspiring I'm sorry.

[Mike Cl]

Not saying your whole argument was bad but I'm gonna be nit picky here. Sure it's semantics but the way this is worded implies that, the bible is false because of the " murder, destruction, evil, lies, distortions and stupidity". But we all know that " murder, destruction, evil, lies, distortions and stupidity" are very real things! They exist! As in that's not a good argument as to why the bible is fake. To a Christians that's not very convincing.

I dislike bad arguments because they hurt the cause. Not saying they can't be totally avoided but they aren't useful.

Be careful of your wording. I understand you probably didn't mean to imply it that way, but the word "so" and it's placement is misleading. I know that grammatically it's correct but not every one is a grammar nazi and the way you stated that is very misleading.

Sorry to point that out I'm just nit picky about semantics.

I understand your point.  The two statements were not meant to be linked--were supposed to be two separate statements.  The 'so' was a link that brought them together.  The entire post was too hasty and sloppy. 

[doorknob]

I understand your point.  The two statements were not meant to be linked--were supposed to be two separate statements.  The 'so' was a link that brought them together.  The entire post was too hasty and sloppy.

Hey I'm not judging. I knew what you meant. I'm just a semantic nazi. how you word things is important because if you aren't careful what you say might be twisted to mean something YOU DIDN'T mean!

[trdsf]

Well you might as well call all sacred writings ever written fiction too.

I do.  Bible, Quran, Rg Veda, Tipitaka, Torah, Dianetics, you name it.  All fiction.

That just isn't the case. They are not the product of people's imagination, but are inspired works. Historically, the bible may be not so accurate. But it isn't a history book. It is a guidance and book of prophesies and virtues. Man added in genealogies and other fantastical things in an attempt to make it undeniable, only making it less credible to many. I believe everything is in the bible for a reason, but that not all of it is exactly the Word of GOD per say.

Many, many issues here.

First, have you never found wisdom in a book of fiction?  Because if the presence of a virtue in a book is your benchmark for divine inspiration, then Douglas Adams, Diane Duane and Isaac Asimov -- to say nothing of Homer, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky and a hundred other writers - must be gods.

And as soon as you state that 'not all of it is exactly the word of god', you need to define a mechanism for determining which is, and which is not, of separating godly from man-made words.

And in any case, as soon as you can discount some of it as 'inspired word', why not all of it?  Why not take the life lessons you find in it, and move on?  If you can't give a reliable mechanism, that's the obvious next step.  Absent that, once you allow yourself to cherry-pick, you undermine any argument in favor of the book.

What is the concrete data that suggests that the western bible is the book, and not the books of any of a hundred other religions?

And how do you even know what's in the bible in the first place?  All we have to go on are copies of copies of copies of translations of translations of translations.  Even positing a real, historical teacher named Jeshua bar-Joseph, he spoke Aramaic, not Latin and certainly not English.  He would not have been giving his sermons in Greek or Hebrew.  No 'first folio' of any biblical text exists: even the earliest fragments are from more than a century after the purported events, and complete copies exist only from several centuries later.

You would think that if it were important what was in it, any all-powerful deity could have seen to it that a simple papyrus scroll or two could have survived.  This has not happened.  Either the text really wasn't that important, or there is no god to preserve it.

[Mike Cl]

Hey I'm not judging. I knew what you meant. I'm just a semantic nazi. how you word things is important because if you aren't careful what you say might be twisted to mean something YOU DIDN'T mean!

Not a problem.  Repubs do that all the time.  I try to refrain from making hasty and sloppy posts; every now and again, one slips thru.

[Baruch]

I do.  Bible, Quran, Rg Veda, Tipitaka, Torah, Dianetics, you name it.  All fiction.
Many, many issues here.

First, have you never found wisdom in a book of fiction?  Because if the presence of a virtue in a book is your benchmark for divine inspiration, then Douglas Adams, Diane Duane and Isaac Asimov -- to say nothing of Homer, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky and a hundred other writers - must be gods.

And as soon as you state that 'not all of it is exactly the word of god', you need to define a mechanism for determining which is, and which is not, of separating godly from man-made words.

And in any case, as soon as you can discount some of it as 'inspired word', why not all of it?  Why not take the life lessons you find in it, and move on?  If you can't give a reliable mechanism, that's the obvious next step.  Absent that, once you allow yourself to cherry-pick, you undermine any argument in favor of the book.

What is the concrete data that suggests that the western bible is the book, and not the books of any of a hundred other religions?

And how do you even know what's in the bible in the first place?  All we have to go on are copies of copies of copies of translations of translations of translations.  Even positing a real, historical teacher named Jeshua bar-Joseph, he spoke Aramaic, not Latin and certainly not English.  He would not have been giving his sermons in Greek or Hebrew.  No 'first folio' of any biblical text exists: even the earliest fragments are from more than a century after the purported events, and complete copies exist only from several centuries later.

You would think that if it were important what was in it, any all-powerful deity could have seen to it that a simple papyrus scroll or two could have survived.  This has not happened.  Either the text really wasn't that important, or there is no god to preserve it.

But I see no attempt, using a smart book like Godel Escher Bach ... for anyone to found a smart religion for smart people, based on a smart book (any of them).  Of course founding a popular religion, always has to be lowest common denominator.  Get with the marketing segmentation, people!

[Baruch]

Get your head out of your ass and stop decieving people.  The old testament has some hard things in it. I won't deny that. But the majority of the whole book is profitable towards ones own direction.

Sharpen up on your misrepresentation of ancient law;

Rape was punishable by death.

Nobody wants to grow up ... it means making choices and taking responsibility.

[popsthebuilder]

I'm sorry but that is your warped opinion. Maybe the bible really speaks to you, how ever it does not speak to me. I have not found much wisdom in the bible and even if I had that doesn't "prove" that the bible is real. How do you know the bible was inspired by god? Because the pope told you so? There are many more scriptures besides what made it to the bible in other words the bible was edited by man. Probably a group of men decided what was "inspiring" and what wasn't. And they decided some of these things based on politics. That's not something inspired by god! That's picking and choosing your holy text!

Many of the events in the bible NEVER happened in real life. Exodus, complete bullshit. Creation story, complete bullshit. Noah's flood, also bullshit. The bible is filled with inaccuracies! And that is building up. Even if you could claim that the stories have valuable lessons from them "which they do not seem to as far as I'm concerned" and may be fiction but is still inspired by god, is still some ones opinion! The bible isn't inspiring to me. In fact now when I go back to read it I realize how laughable it is!

I've also seen some of the "wisdom" in the bible and it doesn't seem that wise to me. Also some of the "wise" messages of the bible conflict with each other. It seems like the authors of the bible didn't collaborate very well and didn't even know what, was what. Other wise you would not need the pope to explain it to you.

Another commonly pointed out problem of the bible is that it's lost in translation! Why would a divine being inspire something that could be misconstrued? You think that was wise? So the common person can't just pick up the bible and fully understand it's true meaning. It is the humans fault that they didn't get the proper message. Well no God didn't convey the message in a way that was timeless, universal, or easy to understand by all. That doesn't qualify as inspiring I'm sorry.

What do you mean it doesn't make the bible real? I have a physical one somewhere. It is indeed real on all levels.

I know it was inspired by GOD being such myself and having the faculty to percieve and receive such.

The point is of obvious misdirection generally. More specifically in the past. The recent one seems a little better though I do not really keep up with him or his actions.

I'm quite aware of the books that aren't in the canon bible due to the greed of men in high places.

Regardless of man's attempts to hide the truth, it will eventually come to light. And soon, being the information age and all.

I started with the Quran and read a multitude of core sacred texts for the very reasons you mention; namely the editing of holy things for ones own motives.

The exodus could have easily been handed down orally and in actuality was a recounting of an even more ancient event. The creation story is, like the rest of the bible, not a literal depiction of the creation of existence, but can and should be likened more to metaphor and an attempt by man to explain their surroundings based on what they did know of GOD and the messages that had been handed down. Saying that all was void or vacuum until a great light was introduced seems kinda accurate. Saying that there was a gathering of mass that became solid doesn't seem too far fetched. When speaking. It seems to support Pangaea and the cradle of life to me. It tries to depict why we have shame saying that it is ultimately sin by natural inclination, basically because we can, but shame is in place to guide us. This refutes the general consensus among orthodox Christians, but I'm not going to get into that at this time.
The flood could to be representative of a previous event. We know of desserts turning to seas, and also; what about ice ages? At the end of an ice age the climate would most likely be pretty wild. I'll leave it alone...I am reaching, but it is what makes sense. The word world or earth is often interchangable with the words land or region. So the flood could have been over all the land and still not be all the earth.

You donot see the value of it because of bias for whatever reason. I'm not saying it isn't warranted in your view. If you spend your time looking for negative stuff in the ot only, then I guess that's all you'll find. Admittedly; if I read it with any literal interpretation in mind, I might get a laugh myself. The recounting of the works of the Christ are profitable towards edification. The book is chocked with parables and or triple entendres. It isn't really funny; you not being able to comprehend it apparently.

Show me the false wisdom you are talking about. Then show me the contradicting wisdom. I will explain them away without effort I am sure. I don't need a pope, nor do any else. There is one verse in that refers to a form of heirarcy with respects to hearing the word. Again the greed of man chose to manipulate the masses, and succeeded to a grand extent.

Wow... Silly....Universal and timeless, simple and easily discerned is what the sacred inspired writings are. Try reading some of the others and see if they have a common point. They are like peices that make a whole in truth. And just to be really clear; I donot derive my direction from the bible alone. It is like a reminder of things. You are lying about the message not being clear. There are but two.

Love GOD; that is be devoted and loyal to the cause that gave you the experience called life and the potential for significance.

Love others to the extent that you love yourself at minimum.

These to things encompass all other laws and direction of man in order to be pleasing to GOD.

It's that simple for the layman. The Christ is the Way and to deny this is wrong in the sight of GOD, but even that will be forgiven. What is unforgivable is to knowingly misdirect those striving to be faithful to GOD, which is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.

Again, it doesn't inspire you because you are predisposed to find it atrocious.

Get out of the ot, though it too is full of knowledge. All things that can easily be known from within too though.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

I do.  Bible, Quran, Rg Veda, Tipitaka, Torah, Dianetics, you name it.  All fiction.
Many, many issues here.

First, have you never found wisdom in a book of fiction?  Because if the presence of a virtue in a book is your benchmark for divine inspiration, then Douglas Adams, Diane Duane and Isaac Asimov -- to say nothing of Homer, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky and a hundred other writers - must be gods.

And as soon as you state that 'not all of it is exactly the word of god', you need to define a mechanism for determining which is, and which is not, of separating godly from man-made words.

And in any case, as soon as you can discount some of it as 'inspired word', why not all of it?  Why not take the life lessons you find in it, and move on?  If you can't give a reliable mechanism, that's the obvious next step.  Absent that, once you allow yourself to cherry-pick, you undermine any argument in favor of the book.

What is the concrete data that suggests that the western bible is the book, and not the books of any of a hundred other religions?

And how do you even know what's in the bible in the first place?  All we have to go on are copies of copies of copies of translations of translations of translations.  Even positing a real, historical teacher named Jeshua bar-Joseph, he spoke Aramaic, not Latin and certainly not English.  He would not have been giving his sermons in Greek or Hebrew.  No 'first folio' of any biblical text exists: even the earliest fragments are from more than a century after the purported events, and complete copies exist only from several centuries later.

You would think that if it were important what was in it, any all-powerful deity could have seen to it that a simple papyrus scroll or two could have survived.  This has not happened.  Either the text really wasn't that important, or there is no god to preserve it.

I did not say that I knew it was the inspired Word of GOD because it had virtuous lessons in it. And surely wouldn't equate any of the actual writers to GOD... ever.

The mechanism for such is knowing the will of GOD within ones own self. If you are aware of the Will of GOD for man and understand that different times called for different testaments it helps. The selfless conscience will guide any who actually seek. And like I said, or tried to convey; even the misdirection one can find in the pages isnt really misdirection if it is known of and spoken of within the same book. It is a testament to the misdirection of the Jew. What I'm getting at is that if greed or want of man can be noted in the unbiased reading then it isn't aligned with the will of GOD. There is no discounting any of it whatsoever. The words that are within the pages of each individual bible are the exact amount that are supposed to be in them. Even the misdirection and confusion within the book is for a reason which GOD permitted.

What else would you take from it but the lessons. It is not a history book. No cherry picking whatsoever. I do not deny any part of the bible that I know of. There was a new testament because there was a need for it.

I can show you proof that they all work in unison towards the same goal and all can be likened to different branches of the same tree of life, but I would attempt to pro e that the bible wasn't too motivated in part by previous accounts. I think I already mentioned something like that anyway.

I know what is in the bible by reading the book, recently in multiple forms. Weren't the Greeks a studious people? I am confident in the translations. The dead Sea scrolls seem pretty accurate to me, but my opinion is really based on ignorance as far as that is concerned.

Again; there are multiple ways to check the validity of the words within the bible, and it can be verified with other books as well.

That was a good argument though.

A general Christian who believes in a literally inerrant bible would be in trouble.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Sorginak]

I did not say that I knew it was the inspired Word of GOD because it had virtuous lessons in it. And surely wouldn't equate any of the actual writers to GOD... ever.

The mechanism for such is knowing the will of GOD within ones own self. If you are aware of the Will of GOD for man and understand that different times called for different testaments it helps.

This has always been the problem with god believers.

It is not so much that they are following the laws of god so much as they are following the laws of their own prejudices.

Man created god for the very purpose of expressing his disdain toward that which he personally disliked.  What better way to get people to follow you than to claim that it is also the will of god?

[Sorginak]

However, to return to the original post, Jesus' origin is very much historically rooted in the origin stories of mythologies that predated Christianity.  Primitive people were not very imaginative and so they copied from what other cultures believed. 

[Unbeliever]

It is you imagining that all theism is the simple product of imagination that is the issue. How would one go about using their imagination to determine truth?

They cannot.

Hence, religion hasn't.

[Unbeliever]

Well you might as well call all sacred writings ever written fiction too. That just isn't the case. They are not the product of people's imagination, but are inspired works.

Meaning what? Inspired by a sunset, inspired by a beautiful flower? Inspired by an omnipotent universe-builder?

Why should it have any bearing on our lives or laws?

[popsthebuilder]

Meaning what? Inspired by a sunset, inspired by a beautiful flower? Inspired by an omnipotent universe-builder?

Why should it have any bearing on our lives or laws?

It should have no bearings on the laws of man, and is a rememberance and guidance for our lives.

As far as what it is inspired by; all of the above, which is to say; GOD.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Sorginak]

It should have no bearings on the laws of man, and is a rememberance and guidance for our lives.

As far as what it is inspired by; all of the above, which is to say; GOD.

faith in selfless unity for good

Individuals who offer nothing except "It's god" are offering nothing of substance.