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Hi guys!

Some of you may remember me.  I've had a complicated relationship with God, Christianity, the Bible. I even was solidly atheist for some years before ascribing to some quasi-hippie/agnostic/seeker position. I've always hungered for T/truth.

I began attending a Bethel AME Church years ago, the Sunday following a horrific mass shooting at a black church. I began studying the Bible again, now examining the languages and changes over the years.

And then she preached the last sermon I would hear there. She spoke for an hour on "sexual sin," homosexuality, the *gasp* gays!

I couldn't listen to that lie anymore. That stupid, hateful drumbeat and ax grinding that wasn't even supported by the Bible..

I sulked at home on Sundays for a few months before trying a new church... Or, rather, a Meeting. Ah, the Quakers! The Friends! I had been told they were dead-- and anyway they were just like the Amish (Like a number of things I was taught in school, these two 'facts' proved to be untrue...)

My church (Meeting!) is kinda a badass black sheep. We were kicked out of our group of meetings because we declared that homosexuality isn't a sin (some willingly joined in the exile, too). It was a rather big schism in the Quaker world. That was before I joined, and it's part of WHY I joined.

I've been a 'Convinced Friend' for several years now. It's amazing seeing God within the world so  readily.

So, hello from a former atheist and former former Christian -- and forever a Dreamer.

Welcome to our little band of heathens.

Can i ask you what convinced you back to christianity? What about the whole jesus-mythos drew you in and made you think: 'oh yeah, that makes sense i guess there is a gos. A christian onr at that?'

Howdy!

Hi Dreamer!
I too hungered for T/truth,  until I found it, or at least what satisfied my hunger. I can't say I've got the whole capital "T" truth, but I at least know enough so that I no longer fear death. And that's a very long way in the right direction.

I am curious,though, about what prompted you to come here. What are you expecting to gain here? I do hope you enjoy your time with us, though.

It is indeed much easier to believe in a god if you get to define what he is.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 20, 2023, 04:29:18 AMWelcome to our little band of heathens.

Can i ask you what convinced you back to christianity? What about the whole jesus-mythos drew you in and made you think: 'oh yeah, that makes sense i guess there is a gos. A christian onr at that?'

I'm okay with mysteries. I walk in faith, guided by that Light in all of us.

I think all deeper truths point to the same thing--and the Christian God is the same as Allah, as Brahman, certainly Yahweh... The distinction is in the eye of the beholder, in our varied histories, languages, viewpoints....


Specifically, the story of Jesus is powerful and inspiring. He was a rebel. Going against the authorities--not just the spiritual and religious but also the social and government entities of the day. And not just teaching peace but even healing a man who came to take him away to death, when that man was injured by one of Jesus' friends.

It's not something that I sat down and considered in a critical manner. It's not the same as considering whether recycling is truly beneficial, weighing evidence and conflicting information (I recycle aluminum cans, but not paper. But I think that's getting off-topic...)

I'm more concerned with how I ought to live my life and govern myself.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 20, 2023, 11:31:23 AMHi Dreamer!
I too hungered for T/truth,  until I found it, or at least what satisfied my hunger. I can't say I've got the whole capital "T" truth, but I at least know enough so that I no longer fear death. And that's a very long way in the right direction.

I still fear death sometimes, the enormity and eternity of it, the mystery.

The hunger and thirsting for truth is important. I am wary of anyone claiming to know the whole Truth. I don't think we can know Truth alone; connection is required. I think I'd feel a keen sense of loss if I discovered one day that I no longer had that desire, to know more and be more.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 20, 2023, 11:31:23 AMI am curious,though, about what prompted you to come here. What are you expecting to gain here? I do hope you enjoy your time with us, though.

I saw a bad horror movie and thought of someone from here, and I wandered back. So, PlutoTV prompted me here.

I decided to post because I might enjoy a debate or two.

I enjoy seeing my blind spots. I guess I'm still a bit of a masochist in that I seek regular doses of genuine cognitive dissonance. Sitting in two contradictory truths, being still in the chaos.

Quote from: aitm on January 20, 2023, 08:43:45 PMIt is indeed much easier to believe in a god if you get to define what he is.

Indeed. God is love is both a simple and complicated definition.

This inspires me to ask the children at Meeting, to define God.

Also curious what the adults would say, though they're largely academics and know lots of lovely words they can use without actually saying much...

As an aside, a number of Friends where I attend will also pray to Mother God and refer to God as She or They, not just always He.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 08:33:05 PMI think all deeper truths point to the same thing--and the Christian God is the same as Allah, as Brahman, certainly Yahweh... The distinction is in the eye of the beholder, in our varied histories, languages, viewpoints....

Yeah, they're all bullshit.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 08:33:05 PMI'm more concerned with how I ought to live my life and govern myself.

Yeah, me too.  But I don't need a god to tell me how to do that.  Especially considering that god (in any and every language and culture) is a fiction created by people to control other people.  And considering that within each culture's god that god is not static or the same--all can be (and are) interpreted to please the person picking and choosing who they want that god to be. 

What leads you to believe (since you don't seem to like thinking--I do understand that tho, thinking is such a waste of time and effort) Jesus (of the bible) is not a fiction?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PMWhat leads you to believe Jesus (of the bible) is not a fiction?

The Bible isn't a compilation of facts, and Christians (+ others) who use it as a science or history book miss out on the true implications. Parables and stories are used throughout, and the juxtaposition between those and your own life, is where the fruit is.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 21, 2023, 10:58:31 PMYeah, they're all bullshit.

Deeper truths usually are

Greetings. Not sure if I was here last time you were. Either way, welcome back.

I'm of the opinion that it's in atheists' best interests to work with reasonable and unbigoted theists. As long as your religion isn't causing any harm, there's no reason we can't coexist. Unlike Conservative Christians and Muslims who want to beat everyone else into submission.

Doesn't mean we can't disagree, though.

Quite a fan of the Quakers - one of the groups that have really fought hard throughout American history for equal rights and tolerance.

A group American anti-atheists could learn a lot from.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 08:54:47 PMIndeed. God is love is both a simple and complicated definition.

This inspires me to ask the children at Meeting, to define God.

Also curious what the adults would say, though they're largely academics and know lots of lovely words they can use without actually saying much...

As an aside, a number of Friends where I attend will also pray to Mother God and refer to God as She or They, not just always He.

Again, if you are allowed to define god as, "not biblical but kinda biblical, except for the parts that are disagreeable, then the real spirit of god is nothing more than the original concept. Let's make up shit and see what sticks......speaking of what sticks....why is your god so flummoxed by a woman's menstrual cycle that he himself created? Your gods a moron.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 11:33:51 PMDeeper truths usually are

Deeper than the usual bullshit religions pile on us?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 11:33:13 PMThe Bible isn't a compilation of facts, and Christians (+ others) who use it as a science or history book miss out on the true implications. Parables and stories are used throughout, and the juxtaposition between those and your own life, is where the fruit is.

You did not even come close to answering my question--not that I'm surprised.

Quote from: aitm on January 22, 2023, 02:14:00 AMAgain, if you are allowed to define god as, "not biblical but kinda biblical, except for the parts that are disagreeable, then the real spirit of god is nothing more than the original concept. Let's make up shit and see what sticks......speaking of what sticks....why is your god so flummoxed by a woman's menstrual cycle that he himself created? Your gods a moron.

God gave rules to curb human stupidity. That whole free will thing led to lots of stupid choices.

Honestly, I've had long discussions in college with ladies about this,  and being able to get away from others and be relieved of my usual duties-- would be amazing. That part, maybe there's something to.

Anyway,  that is to say... God gave rules to people, in response to them.  Some things make sense,  while others are just puzzlers... Don't eat pork makes sense when you consider how deadly it is if improperly prepared. Having two different plants in a garment? That one is a stumper.

The rules reveal more about human nature than the nature of God.

I define God as the Bible does.  God is love.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 22, 2023, 09:53:17 AMYou did not even come close to answering my question--not that I'm surprised.

Huh. I didn't satisfactorily answer a question that paused in the middle for an insult at me?

I'm not surprised either.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 22, 2023, 08:39:34 AMDeeper than the usual bullshit religions pile on us?

People are often full of shit. Religion should strip people down.  That is why bullshit can accumulate so easily among the religious.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 22, 2023, 01:04:07 AMGreetings. Not sure if I was here last time you were. Either way, welcome back.

I'm of the opinion that it's in atheists' best interests to work with reasonable and unbigoted theists. As long as your religion isn't causing any harm, there's no reason we can't coexist. Unlike Conservative Christians and Muslims who want to beat everyone else into submission.

Doesn't mean we can't disagree, though.

I think I just figured out my draw to atheists...

Besides the existence of God (God's real whether you believe or not, anyway lol), I am more likely to understand and hold similar ideas with the average atheist versus the average Xian.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 22, 2023, 10:32:23 PMI define God as the Bible does.  God is love.

There is more to the Bible than 1John 4:8.

Too many of the Bible God's actions say that he is anything but love.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 22, 2023, 11:43:28 PMThere is more to the Bible than 1John 4:8.

Too many of the Bible God's actions say that he is anything but love.

And there is more to God than the Bible.

God acts within our damaged and broken world. Is it God's actions that are unloving, or the humans'?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 22, 2023, 10:34:15 PMHuh. I didn't satisfactorily answer a question that paused in the middle for an insult at me?

I'm not surprised either.

Asking a question of 'why' is an insult?  Yeah, for theists that would be an insult. Well, my child, you still have not answered my question.  But then, theists really, really, don't want to answer questions for it is sooooo much easier to believe and have faith than to actually use thinking to look at issues.

Nothing says love like demanding children's head be bashed against the rocks and telling the hebes they can take the young women and rape them at will. Sure is odd how xians view love.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 22, 2023, 10:40:58 PMI think I just figured out my draw to atheists...

Besides the existence of God (God's real whether you believe or not, anyway lol),

It would be nice if you would offer a shred of data or proof to prove what you assert.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 22, 2023, 10:32:23 PMGod gave rules to curb human stupidity. That whole free will thing led to lots of stupid choices.

What/who then curbs god's stupidity and cruelty??

What, for you, is 'free will'?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 23, 2023, 12:56:56 AMAnd there is more to God than the Bible.

God acts within our damaged and broken world. Is it God's actions that are unloving, or the humans'?

That makes a sort of sense, since god created the world, and since he is perfect then his creation must be perfect to.  so, the world is as he likes it, since he could simply change it and us to reflect his likes/dislikes.  So that baby born without a brain or two heads or any number of horrors is born because that is what god planned and therefore his approval.  You can keep your god 'of love'.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 08:50:49 AMAsking a question of 'why' is an insult?  Yeah, for theists that would be an insult. Well, my child, you still have not answered my question.  But then, theists really, really, don't want to answer questions for it is sooooo much easier to believe and have faith than to actually use thinking to look at issues.

You can't help yourself, can you? I doubt you even notice what you're doing. If there was an actual question rather than phrasing your assertions in the form of a question, that would be cool. No belittlement or insults from this corner, but I'm not going to try to return a serve that's out of bounds.

Whatever faults you might have, Dreamer, at least you write grammatically correct English. That's better than many of the theists who visit us. We often have to translate their gobbledygook into sensible, meaningful language, and it gets tiresome.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 08:50:49 AMAsking a question of 'why' is an insult?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PMWhat leads you to believe (since you don't seem to like thinking--I do understand that tho, thinking is such a waste of time and effort) Jesus (of the bible) is not a fiction?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 08:33:05 PMI'm okay with mysteries. I walk in faith, guided by that Light in all of us.

I think all deeper truths point to the same thing--and the Christian God is the same as Allah, as Brahman, certainly Yahweh... The distinction is in the eye of the beholder, in our varied histories, languages, viewpoints....


Specifically, the story of Jesus is powerful and inspiring. He was a rebel. Going against the authorities--not just the spiritual and religious but also the social and government entities of the day. And not just teaching peace but even healing a man who came to take him away to death, when that man was injured by one of Jesus' friends.

It's not something that I sat down and considered in a critical manner. It's not the same as considering whether recycling is truly beneficial, weighing evidence and conflicting information (I recycle aluminum cans, but not paper. But I think that's getting off-topic...)

I'm more concerned with how I ought to live my life and govern myself.

Well, if it works for you, i guess.
You do you, then. Thanks for the answer.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 11:34:25 AMIt would be nice if you would offer a shred of data or proof to prove what you assert.

I already shared that I walk in faith. God isn't a simple matter of true or false. I have direct experience of God, and I see evidence of Her Creation everywhere. We're echoes of the divine, the Light unable to be extinguished.

I'm happy to share about those experiences, but I've already clearly shared my bias here--and what if it was just an acid flashback, anyway?

Anyone can have direct experience of God.

If I see a beautiful rainbow in the sky, it would be pretty silly for someone to tell me it didn't happen simply because they weren't paying attention.

David Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 24, 2023, 08:57:58 AMI already shared that I walk in faith. God isn't a simple matter of true or false. I have direct experience of God, and I see evidence of Her Creation everywhere. We're echoes of the divine, the Light unable to be extinguished.

I'm happy to share about those experiences, but I've already clearly shared my bias here--and what if it was just an acid flashback, anyway?

Anyone can have direct experience of God.

If I see a beautiful rainbow in the sky, it would be pretty silly for someone to tell me it didn't happen simply because they weren't paying attention.

God has nothing to do with a rainbow or at least it is easy to explain it for what it is--light reflecting through rain.  God is not needed to explain any happening of this world.  I have not come across any theist that can give me any proof or data that god is needed or exists.  and that includes those people in a small community church of which I was a member for a decade or so; if you can imagine, I was even on the board for 3 years and as president for a year.  I very much liked the people, which underscores one of the good things of many of this land's churches; social interactions.  After much study and 'soul' searching, the falseness of the bible (yes, I have read it cover to cover) and the set of beliefs of the christian religion, I simply could not go back.

It was suggested to me that I needed to focus on my 'beliefs' and 'faith' in god.  In other words, nobody could supply data or proof of god's existence--I needed to believe and if I was really good at it, turn to faith (blind belief with no need for facts or data).  I could not suspend my 'thinking', or critical, rational thoughts.  So, I see faith and belief as simply a way for a theist to have no need to 'think' or 'reason'.  So, when I suggest you don't use thinking or rational thought, this is what I mean.  I don't see that as an insult but an observation.  So, you as a theist I see not using or wanting to use reason and thinking, but relying on belief and faith to feed you, not reason and data.  That's your choice, but don't expect me to want to support that point of view. 

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 09:35:51 AMDavid Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Nature is only beautiful from a distance. Look too closely, and you see it as the bloodbath, cruel struggle for survival that it is. Unless I'm mistaken, most living things die by being eaten alive. Animals at the bottom of the food chain have so many babies because most of them won't make it to adulthood. Some diseases and parasites only seem to exist to cause suffering. Even the human brain, arguably nature's greatest accomplishment, is so fragile, so many things can go wrong for no apparent reason. PTSD and depression seem like pretty huge design flaws.

Brain: "Oh. It appears you've been through a traumatic experience. I know what will help with that! Flashbacks! Constant anxiety! Emotional triggers! Lack of energy! Suicidal thoughts!"

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 11:42:16 AMWhat, for you, is 'free will'?

First, thanks for the question that is so easy to answer...

I'm a fan of indeterminate free will, philosophers like Kane. He describes it much better than I could, but it's something like you have options within a framework that both limits (and sometimes expands) those options.

This is another example of a question that can't be answered simply by evaluating the evidence; it is experiential as well. And yet thinkers across many subjects have written thousands of articles and books exploring the idea of free will, with largely what can be considered facts rather than personal experience.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 24, 2023, 01:41:07 PMFirst, thanks for the question that is so easy to answer...

I'm a fan of indeterminate free will, philosophers like Kane. He describes it much better than I could, but it's something like you have options within a framework that both limits (and sometimes expands) those options.

This is another example of a question that can't be answered simply by evaluating the evidence; it is experiential as well. And yet thinkers across many subjects have written thousands of articles and books exploring the idea of free will, with largely what can be considered facts rather than personal experience.

There are several psychological studies which bring the idea of free will into question. Tests which predict choices made seconds before the subjects consciously made their choices. Identical twins, separated at birth, living very similar lives, right down to the names of their wives. I think it's a mistake to think we're in the driver's seat, when the seat itself is in question.

People with their corpus collosum (the tissue connecting the left and right halves of the brain) surgically separated end up with two competing personalities. Each half is capable of certain functions the other is not, and the lack of communication causes some weird stuff to happen. Limit information to one side of the brain, giving it instructions the other is unaware of, and then asking the other half why they did what they did, they'll come up with an explanation out of thin air. Totally confident in their answer, but completely wrong. Each half may have different preferences. Different favorite colors, different life goals. So what happened? Did their soul split in half? I don't think so. Some take this as evidence there are two minds in the brain, with one (the nonverbal side) taking a backseat and just cooperating with the other mind, and basically forgetting it even exists until it is separated from the other. I think it's more that the mind is a whole multitude of different, modular pieces, all cooperating and yet fighting for control. And all those parts have simply fooled themselves into thinking they're one.

Well, Blackleaf, I'm of two minds about that...
🤔🧐

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 24, 2023, 12:11:29 PMNature is only beautiful from a distance. Look too closely, and you see it as the bloodbath, cruel struggle for survival that it is.

I really enjoyed his movie, "The Enigma of Kasper Hauser." Made me want to learn to speak German just so I could watch it without the subtitles. But of course, I didn't. Too lazy.

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 11:49:07 PM

Nature IS a bloodbath!  I can't tell you how many times I've been told to turn to nature if I wanted to see proof of god!  If Nature is proof of a loving god, then I want nothing to do with that god's love!!!  I see Nature as proof that there is no god.  All animals (and some plants) must kill to live--they (including us) have to kill, there is no other choice except starvation.  No choice!! There is no reason god could not have constructed it so that all the energy any life form needed to survive would have been to create an all solar powered form of energy gathering. 

Humans spent many years trying to get away from nature for a reason. lol

Nature still wins, of course. If a hurricane blows through, our comfy houses won't keep it out. And one day, the cost of our comfortable lives will come due.

Quote from: aitm on January 23, 2023, 09:39:18 AMNothing says love like demanding children's head be bashed against the rocks and telling the hebes they can take the young women and rape them at will. Sure is odd how xians view love.

God in infallible. The Bible is not infallible, for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with the manner the books were written, translation processes, various councils and decrees that allowed certain books over others to be accepted and often imposed steep ramifications for anyone harboring these suddenly illegal texts. That is, humans have used and abused the Bible since the moment it was recorded (first orally and later written, though we are told that in the beginning there was the Word.)

Neither do I believe that the Bible is a history or science book. It is full of parables and stories that are supposed to make us ponder. We are revealed truths about ourselves and likewise truths about God, the world both as it is now and as it has been. There are some rules given, as well.

Taken as such a parable, we can consider the Hebrews and the Amalekites (the verses about killing children and babies) in terms of the story of the Bible.

The Story of the Bible, summary by me:
God creates the world, with humans in his image, with free will. We're curious scamps who get into trouble, do the wrong things, and we generally act horribly towards each other.

At first, God tries to work with a particular group of humans, the Hebrews, to bring eternal peace and prosperity to all. God gives rules and stories to attempt to curb our sinning. Christ enters the world a baby, born to a Hebrew virgin. Christ teaches that we are to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. God now works with anyone willing to follow those commands, continuing to work towards bringing peace on Earth.

So, the Amelekites were both related to the Hebrews AND hated them completely, attacking them a number of times. They attacked as the Hebrews were fleeing Egypt, just after the Red Sea closed when the Hebrews finished crossing.

Generally when an army attacked, they would take the spoils of war. Livestock, people, goods. But the Hebrews were instructed to destroy all of it. The Amelekites are clearly evil, intent on the Hebrews' destruction. The Hebrews take the best stuff (and people) for themselves. God is angry they didn't listen, and the King says he did listen--but they took the best to give to God. God points out that obedience to God is much better than sacrifices. That theme is explored in this story, that of obedience to God, of the need to fully eradicate sin.

That's my interpretation, and there are bound to be many other legitimate lenses.


As to the rape verse, what are your referring to? I used to be horrified that God commanded that a rapist must offer to marry the woman he's violated. Yet in that time, such a poor soul could have faced a very difficult life--she could be killed, prevented from ever marrying, ostracized, etc. In these sinful dealings, the merciful thing was God commanding the rapist to offer that woman protection and social standing, both things that without such an order, the woman would have suffered greatly.

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 09:35:51 AMDavid Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Of course we look to lovely things.

While God created the world, we have been imbued with agency. Likewise, systems for the world were created. And then there was sin, getting things wrong; 'The Fall.'

I see God in this; in you and me, in our responses to this creature capable of causing such pain.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 25, 2023, 06:42:58 PMGod in infallible. The Bible is not infallible,...........................

How do you know this???

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 24, 2023, 10:29:25 AMGod has nothing to do with a rainbow or at least it is easy to explain it for what it is--light reflecting through rain.  God is not needed to explain any happening of this world.  I have not come across any theist that can give me any proof or data that god is needed or exists.  and that includes those people in a small community church of which I was a member for a decade or so; if you can imagine, I was even on the board for 3 years and as president for a year.  I very much liked the people, which underscores one of the good things of many of this land's churches; social interactions.  After much study and 'soul' searching, the falseness of the bible (yes, I have read it cover to cover) and the set of beliefs of the christian religion, I simply could not go back.

It was suggested to me that I needed to focus on my 'beliefs' and 'faith' in god.  In other words, nobody could supply data or proof of god's existence--I needed to believe and if I was really good at it, turn to faith (blind belief with no need for facts or data).  I could not suspend my 'thinking', or critical, rational thoughts.  So, I see faith and belief as simply a way for a theist to have no need to 'think' or 'reason'.  So, when I suggest you don't use thinking or rational thought, this is what I mean.  I don't see that as an insult but an observation.  So, you as a theist I see not using or wanting to use reason and thinking, but relying on belief and faith to feed you, not reason and data.  That's your choice, but don't expect me to want to support that point of view. 

Any data or evidence about God's existence could easily be refuted.

Science survives on data, evidence, observations--yet despite all our work and records since that apple fell on that Newton guy, we can't definitively say that gravity both exists and works the way we believe. It's still a theory. It takes belief and faith as well, in different doses. Faith and critical thinking are not enemies or incompatible. Rather, we use them together for nearly everything.

Think about the last chair you sat in. You had lots of evidence to support the idea that it was safe for you to sit there: it's held you before, you're within the weight limit, it was put together well, seems sturdy, or what have you. But, it was an act of faith when you actually sat down--which of course you predicated upon evidence. After all, would you have sat down if it was leaning to one side ready to topple over?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2023, 07:05:18 PMHow do you know this???

I went into some detail. What are you asking about? 'This'?

Dreamer, you and other theists love to use the word 'sin'.  What is sin and how do we know that certain acts are sinful?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 25, 2023, 07:08:02 PMI went into some detail. What are you asking about? 'This'?

Sorry, Dreamer, I had not read your response when I asked this question.  Ignore it.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 24, 2023, 12:11:29 PMNature is only beautiful from a distance. Look too closely, and you see it as the bloodbath, cruel struggle for survival that it is. Unless I'm mistaken, most living things die by being eaten alive. Animals at the bottom of the food chain have so many babies because most of them won't make it to adulthood. Some diseases and parasites only seem to exist to cause suffering. Even the human brain, arguably nature's greatest accomplishment, is so fragile, so many things can go wrong for no apparent reason. PTSD and depression seem like pretty huge design flaws.

Brain: "Oh. It appears you've been through a traumatic experience. I know what will help with that! Flashbacks! Constant anxiety! Emotional triggers! Lack of energy! Suicidal thoughts!"

While depression can happen with no apparent reason, PTSD has a root cause. I think I have it because I would have crumbled completely under the weight of such pain; I needed it to be buried, at least somewhat. But, the mind and body want to heal-and it's hard to contain evil.

God created the world, but it's been continuing in sin since pretty much the beginning. This is the disease, germs, natural disasters, etc. Though, I'm not sure I could convey exactly how I have arrived at that conclusion.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2023, 07:08:28 PMDreamer, you and other theists love to use the word 'sin'.  What is sin and how do we know that certain acts are sinful?

I really don't lol I think this is the most I've used it in many years combined. But, sin is what many religious love to harp on, often so they can preen in their sinless states over the pagan rabble.

Sin is simply missing the mark. Some sins are clearly detailed for us, like stealing and murder. Others we are given a framework to evaluate:

 "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is what I ask myself: 1. Is it loving God? 2. Is it loving my neighbor as myself? It is not lawful or Biblical if it can't pass through these two sieves, and it's not something I should do.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 25, 2023, 07:07:09 PMAny data or evidence about God's existence could easily be refuted.

Science survives on data, evidence, observations--yet despite all our work and records since that apple fell on that Newton guy, we can't definitively say that gravity both exists and works the way we believe. It's still a theory. It takes belief and faith as well, in different doses. Faith and critical thinking are not enemies or incompatible. Rather, we use them together for nearly everything.

Think about the last chair you sat in. You had lots of evidence to support the idea that it was safe for you to sit there: it's held you before, you're within the weight limit, it was put together well, seems sturdy, or what have you. But, it was an act of faith when you actually sat down--which of course you predicated upon evidence. After all, would you have sat down if it was leaning to one side ready to topple over?

I agree with your first sentence. :)
Most people misuse the word 'theory'.  A theory is a hypothesis that has been tested using the scientific method.  The key, is that if the hypothesis was tested and found to be accurate, it becomes a theory.  If not, it is discarded as being not accurate.  In other words, a theory is a tested statement.  That does not mean that a theory is considered true for all time.  If other evidence is presented that shows a theory is wrong, it is changed or no longer considered to be a theory.

I use the words 'faith' and 'belief' differently than you.  Using the chair as an example--I never had 'faith' that my chair was/is safe for me.  I think the chair will be safe and comfortable, and I think that because the last several hundred times I sat in it it has been safe.  But I am fully aware that material things break or malfunction. 
Another example.  I don't believe or have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will based upon a lifetime of evidence that it will--and I know from the past that it has for billions of years.  I don't need faith to think the sun will rise.  And I know from the scientific evidence that the sun does not really 'rise', but that because of the rotation of Earth makes it seem so.  It seems to me that theists use belief and faith as a way to blunt thinking, suggesting the best way to find and keep god is to simply believe in him and, even better, use faith and that way one does not have to worry about losing god. So, from my perspective, faith and critical thinking are not the same, but opposite ways to view the universe.  That thought of mine was underscored by my membership of the the church I was a decade long member of. 

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 24, 2023, 02:49:46 PMThere are several psychological studies which bring the idea of free will into question. Tests which predict choices made seconds before the subjects consciously made their choices. Identical twins, separated at birth, living very similar lives, right down to the names of their wives. I think it's a mistake to think we're in the driver's seat, when the seat itself is in question.

People with their corpus collosum (the tissue connecting the left and right halves of the brain) surgically separated end up with two competing personalities. Each half is capable of certain functions the other is not, and the lack of communication causes some weird stuff to happen. Limit information to one side of the brain, giving it instructions the other is unaware of, and then asking the other half why they did what they did, they'll come up with an explanation out of thin air. Totally confident in their answer, but completely wrong. Each half may have different preferences. Different favorite colors, different life goals. So what happened? Did their soul split in half? I don't think so. Some take this as evidence there are two minds in the brain, with one (the nonverbal side) taking a backseat and just cooperating with the other mind, and basically forgetting it even exists until it is separated from the other. I think it's more that the mind is a whole multitude of different, modular pieces, all cooperating and yet fighting for control. And all those parts have simply fooled themselves into thinking they're one.

Damn you. This kept distracting me while I was watching the series finale of The King's Affection, and I had to keep rewinding it! #1stWorldProblems

I am going to read some more about studies on the corpus callosum; I love psychology and how the brain works.

Btw, that was completely facetious about the free will question being an easy question to answer. It's absurdly involved.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2023, 07:27:03 PMI agree with your first sentence. :)
Most people misuse the word 'theory'.  A theory is a hypothesis that has been tested using the scientific method.  The key, is that if the hypothesis was tested and found to be accurate, it becomes a theory.  If not, it is discarded as being not accurate.  In other words, a theory is a tested statement.  That does not mean that a theory is considered true for all time.  If other evidence is presented that shows a theory is wrong, it is changed or no longer considered to be a theory.

I use the words 'faith' and 'belief' differently than you.  Using the chair as an example--I never had 'faith' that my chair was/is safe for me.  I think the chair will be safe and comfortable, and I think that because the last several hundred times I sat in it it has been safe.  But I am fully aware that material things break or malfunction. 
Another example.  I don't believe or have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will based upon a lifetime of evidence that it will--and I know from the past that it has for billions of years.  I don't need faith to think the sun will rise.  And I know from the scientific evidence that the sun does not really 'rise', but that because of the rotation of Earth makes it seem so.  It seems to me that theists use belief and faith as a way to blunt thinking, suggesting the best way to find and keep god is to simply believe in him and, even better, use faith and that way one does not have to worry about losing god. So, from my perspective, faith and critical thinking are not the same, but opposite ways to view the universe.  That thought of mine was underscored by my membership of the the church I was a decade long member of. 

Some churches hate critical thinking. They often have limited views on God, and they demand blind faith and adherence since otherwise their god is threatened. I will never understand Christians who think evolution is not something God could design. I don't impose my own limits on God (more accurately, I root these out and question everything, changing as evidence warrants).

Critical thinking and faith are not the same, but they are far from incompatible. The fact that so many treat them as enemies does not change that they can be quite harmonious and complimentary.

Dreamer, I actually don't see you as the typical theist--I see us as interfacing the world in much the same way. I simply do not think one has to be a theist to be 'moral' or 'ethical' (In fact, I often see the religious as being without ethics or morals--but that is another discussion is defining what each of those mean).  Personally I use the rule of reciprocity (commonly called the do unto others rule) added to the Wicca, first do no harm.  Kindness goes a long way.

Which I was a member of the Unity church, I grew to appreciate one of it's main tools.  Charles Fillmore developed the Unity movement and favored the use of study centers and not churches.  Anyway he also wrote the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary where he presented many bible verses as parables that pertain to our personal, daily lives.  I will give you a tiny, brief example--but remember this is based on the memory of an old guy trying to recall something I wrote 15 or so years ago.  The story about David and Goliath is a parable for how to meet and hopefully defeat those very difficult or impossible problems we all face, time to time.  David comes from the mountains (safety) after spending his life honing his skills, such as the sling, and abilities.  He has to face Goliath but he rejects the tools Saul would give him and uses his instead.  He descends into the valley, where the rubber meets the road.  Because he is so sure of his abilities and his use of his tools, he does the impossible and wins.  Tackle the problems of life by being prepared and sure of yourself.  Anyway, that is how I remember the parable going--probably left stuff out.  If you are not familiar with that book I do think you would like it.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 25, 2023, 07:14:38 PMGod created the world, but it's been continuing in sin since pretty much the beginning. This is the disease, germs, natural disasters, etc. Though, I'm not sure I could convey exactly how I have arrived at that conclusion.

Wait...what? 🤨

I mean, that would sound sorta okay if one grew up in a religious household and didn't have any formal education and lived like 300 or so years ago, but man, that's a jarring sentence to read with a passing understanding of deep time, the evolution of life, and raw physical processes that underpin natural disasters.

You might as well be talking about astrology or faith healing in a serious way.

Yeah, or homeopathy... 🙄

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 25, 2023, 09:44:37 PMWait...what? 🤨

I mean, that would sound sorta okay if one grew up in a religious household and didn't have any formal education and lived like 300 or so years ago, but man, that's a jarring sentence to read with a passing understanding of deep time, the evolution of life, and raw physical processes that underpin natural disasters.

You might as well be talking about astrology or faith healing in a serious way.

But I'm not speaking about science nor negating those processes.

Neither is that thought a well-considered position; just a wo/andering. Maybe I shouldn't post after smoking, but that's when I feel most connected.

I'm okay with having some things wrong in my understanding of the spiritual world, as long as I have the big things right and continue to work towards love and healing, bearing ever in mind that I just might be wrong. :)

I mean...earthquakes are happening and we can go with tectonic plates, fault lines, etc or we can go with sin (i.e. disobedience towards some cosmic lord).  One explanation is a just a tiny bit more testable and logical and reasonable than the other, lol.

Mind-wandering is okay I guess, as long as you remember where you put it.  Cheers.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 26, 2023, 01:19:58 AMYeah, or homeopathy... 🙄

True story:

God cured my autoimmune disease, Graves disease, that attacks your thyroid and makes it go into overdrive, desperate to prove to your immune system that it does, in fact, have a super important purpose (your cells have receptors for thyroid hormones in all or nearly all parts of your body), so maybe stop attacking it...

I felt led to say it when I was diagnosed. I felt it, and I immediately shared it... With my endocrinologist. Who I had to quickly reassure that I intended to be treated because God also blessed us with intelligence and tools and wonderful doctors to help us heal. She told me nicely that remission may never happen, I may need lifelong medication, even surgery and then lifelong medication.


I asked for the lowest dose of the two medications she started me on. I did have to increase one of them later on, since my labs weren't looking so good. That's what I did, based on good science.

But I knew this was deeper. My body was literally rejecting itself. It was from the suffering, the discord, within me. The thyroid is also over the throat chakra. This has to do with communication.

So, I worked on it (and still do)! I gave myself love, accepting all parts of me, even the dark parts I like to deny. I made sure to say the things that needed to be said, even when I was scared or uncomfortable or didn't know how exactly to say it. And worked also to stop negative talk--both towards myself, gossiping, and that ever delightful so-American pastime of schadenfreude..

I was in remission in a little over a year. She warned that it could be a "false" remission, and I had labs drawn every few weeks, then monthly, now yearly. She told me at the last appointment that if I were to get pregnant again, that would probably cause it to start again. Any big stress like that could.

So, I continue to work on my healing, dealing with stress as it comes, loving and forgiving myself and others.

Btw, I also credit the doctor, pharmacists, etc. with aiding in my healing.

Maybe I would have been just as blessed if I just took the medications and continued in my brokenness. That's conjecture, and you're as free to arrive at your own conclusions as mine.


Tl, dr: God healed me of Graves Disease, using both physical healing at the hands of medical professionals and spiritual healing on our shared journey. God and science are compatible; the problems arise when people limit God and ignore science. Also, peppermint oil really does help headaches.

Yuuup.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 26, 2023, 05:48:27 PMI mean...earthquakes are happening and we can go with tectonic plates, fault lines, etc or we can go with sin (i.e. disobedience towards some cosmic lord).  One explanation is a just a tiny bit more testable and logical and reasonable than the other, lol.

Mind-wandering is okay I guess, as long as you remember where you put it.  Cheers.

I meant more the idea that sin could have been the impetus for these things, not actually causing them now.

All that adultery is not to blame for hurricanes. That's antithesis' fault.

I want to find a cartoon that was something like... God or Religion saying early man sinned and then Brain or Science suggesting that maybe it was because early man hadn't evolved to understand, and then they hug.

Sound familiar to anyone? It's always made me chuckle.

Anyway, here's this. Water bears are even more awesome...:

(https://i.imgur.io/oEK2AfN_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

Quote from: Dreamer on January 26, 2023, 05:11:01 PMI'm okay with having some things wrong in my understanding of the spiritual world, as long as I have the big things right and continue to work towards love and healing, bearing ever in mind that I just might be wrong. :)

That's interesting.  I guess some need to believe in a spiritual world--  A world that has not been proven and never will be. but if that helps one cope with the real world, then so be it.  Just do not expect me to support that, for far too often those 'spiritual' people demand that I believe as they do--they call it freedom of religion; I call it the lack of freedom.  Anyway, I have explored the possibility of such a spiritual world and failed on all levels.  Clearly, (for me anyway) it is an emotional crutch that is not necessary for me to work towards love and healing.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 26, 2023, 07:10:35 PMThat's interesting.  I guess some need to believe in a spiritual world--  A world that has not been proven and never will be. but if that helps one cope with the real world, then so be it.  Just do not expect me to support that, for far too often those 'spiritual' people demand that I believe as they do--they call it freedom of religion; I call it the lack of freedom.  Anyway, I have explored the possibility of such a spiritual world and failed on all levels.  Clearly, (for me anyway) it is an emotional crutch that is not necessary for me to work towards love and healing.

Surely belief in God is not necessary to work towards love and healing. However, acts of love and healing will always draw you closer to God.

Much as scientific forces impose into life without any distinction between who believes or doesn't, so it is like with God.

I cannot answer for spiritual people demanding that you belief as they do, except to answer for myself. Because as I was about to write how that's not me, it certainly was in my younger life.

For a variety of laughable and heartbreaking reasons, I was deeply distressed and convicted by the regular hell-and-damnation sermons from my backwoods Appalachian pastor. In particular, I remember him pacing and snapping his fingers as he bemoaned each person, going to hell with each snap of his fingers, every day. Describing the torture of eternal agony and separation as flames burn you and you thirst for water that you'll never get. That shit bore into and strangled little obedient, sweet 9-year-old me. That panic gripped me, and the stakes were too high for me to allow anyone to believe anything different. DON'T DIE IN THE BURNING BLACK FLAMES OF HELL!! So, it was love that stirred me to share. And that mixed in with pride and sanctimony as I became a teen. Such piety and fierceness burned quick, and I was sickened by this god I'd been taught about and the way the followers treated each other, and I was tired of having my questions silenced and admonished. Sick of the pain I saw Christians causing, both far away and all around me. Especially the justification of how my biological father acted as the head of the household, imbued with godlike impunity and able to do and demand whatever he wanted... I was also unable to understand how accepting that dinosaurs lived long before humans, meant that I rejected the Bible. I had many questions, and many injuries, from the Christian faith.

I ranged between atheist, pagan, Wiccan, agnostic, and devout Discordian for many years. As I shed more of that warped Christian programming, the more curious I became and set out on a varied and strange path through the lands of philosophy, psychology, and pharmaceuticals.

It's amazing the echoes that repeat in the world, the interconnections. When I say I see God everywhere, it is most often those connections that I am taking note of, especially if it's ugly or uncomfortable.

So, on behalf of this reformed believe-this-or-else Christian, I'm sorry that your questions and journey were met with pat and meaningless answers. God is not so simple.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 23, 2023, 04:22:28 PMWhatever faults you might have, Dreamer, at least you write grammatically correct English. That's better than many of the theists who visit us. We often have to translate their gobbledygook into sensible, meaningful language, and it gets tiresome.

lol

I missed seeing this. Thanks, I think. I think I overuse commas, but they're the most whimsical of all the punctuation, aren't they? Excepting, of course, for the inverted exclamation mark, maybe.

Don't worry, almost everyone uses too many commas. Or not enough.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 24, 2023, 12:11:29 PMNature is only beautiful from a distance.

"Life close to Nature is hard, cruel, and short."

God to the world:  I give to you this world, of wonder and peace....though you will have to kill each other and eat each other to survive....have a nice day. That's some kinda fucked up god there.

Quote from: aitm on January 27, 2023, 08:01:43 PMGod to the world:  I give to you this world, of wonder and peace....though you will have to kill each other and eat each other to survive....have a nice day. That's some kinda fucked up god there.

I should be able to give you at least 2 more 'likes' for that one!

Being healed by God must make you feel very special.

Welcome to the forums.

Quote from: ManUfan on January 28, 2023, 11:12:33 AMBeing healed by God must make you feel very special.

Welcome to the forums.

I don't know why your statement reminds me of this phrase that theists love to utter--'There but for the grace of God, go I.'  What I did not realize when I said it myself, is that I was saying that God loves me, but apparently not you.
Hubris and religious people go hand-in-hand.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2023, 12:35:48 PMI don't know why your statement reminds me of this phrase that theists love to utter--'There but for the grace of God, go I.'  What I did not realize when I said it myself, is that I was saying that God loves me, but apparently not you.
Hubris and religious people go hand-in-hand.

My wife used to say that. I pointed out that she must be very special and it made her think (I think)

She doesn't say that anymore.

Quote from: ManUfan on January 28, 2023, 11:12:33 AMBeing healed by God must make you feel very special.

Welcome to the forums.

I feel grateful.

Special? Not from that. Nothing I've done has made me more worthy or deserving; I just was healed. And I'm grateful to have my hair stop falling out, among other unpleasantness that stopped when Graves ceased.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2023, 12:35:48 PMI don't know why your statement reminds me of this phrase that theists love to utter--'There but for the grace of God, go I.'  What I did not realize when I said it myself, is that I was saying that God loves me, but apparently not you.
Hubris and religious people go hand-in-hand.

Oh, wow, I've said that before but never meant that God loves me, not the other. I took it as a way of finding myself in the other's shoes. That could easily be me. I don't think God chose to save me and not another.

Interesting the varied messages we get from the same words.

Quote from: aitm on January 27, 2023, 08:01:43 PMGod to the world:  I give to you this world, of wonder and peace....though you will have to kill each other and eat each other to survive....have a nice day. That's some kinda fucked up god there.

God could have just made us sycophants without free will, but then we wouldn't be in God's image.

Sin (mistakes) created these conditions.

Does God have "free will"?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 11:53:11 AMOh, wow, I've said that before but never meant that God loves me, not the other. I took it as a way of finding myself in the other's shoes. That could easily be me. I don't think God chose to save me and not another.

Interesting the varied messages we get from the same words.

I cannot tell you how many times I've heard something to the effect--I was saved by the grace of god.  So, the average christian does believe that god picks and choses who to bestow his grace on.  So, for most christians, god does pick and chose.  If god does not pick and chose to save people, then how does one explain why I was born relatively intact, while millions are born with defects?  If there is no reason, then it is just luck.  But did not god craft the universe with skill and thoughtful crafting and not luck?  And since god is the ultimate good and fair and perfect being, then this must be on purpose. 

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 11:47:58 AMI feel grateful.

Special? Not from that. Nothing I've done has made me more worthy or deserving; I just was healed. And I'm grateful to have my hair stop falling out, among other unpleasantness that stopped when Graves ceased.

Great. There is nothing wrong with showing gratitude as long as it's directed towards the people who actually helped you.

If it helps you in life to thank God, crack on with it, but don't expect me to understand it.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 30, 2023, 02:01:41 PMI cannot tell you how many times I've heard something to the effect--I was saved by the grace of god.  So, the average christian does believe that god picks and choses who to bestow his grace on.  So, for most christians, god does pick and chose.  If god does not pick and chose to save people, then how does one explain why I was born relatively intact, while millions are born with defects?  If there is no reason, then it is just luck.  But did not god craft the universe with skill and thoughtful crafting and not luck?  And since god is the ultimate good and fair and perfect being, then this must be on purpose. 

God relies on human hands and physical ways; otherwise there would be no order to the universe, and God would indeed be capricious and cruel.

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 02:43:28 PMGreat. There is nothing wrong with showing gratitude as long as it's directed towards the people who actually helped you.

If it helps you in life to thank God, crack on with it, but don't expect me to understand it.

Why is it problematic to thank both God and people? It's like complaining that someone thanked the farmers and store workers alongside the cook for a delicious meal they just ate. Is the cook's contribution devalued or her thanks lesser?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:51:35 PMWhy is it problematic to thank both God and people? It's like complaining that someone thanked the farmers and store workers alongside the cook for a delicious meal they just ate. Is the cook's contribution devalued or her thanks lesser?

It devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:49:01 PMGod relies on human hands and physical ways; otherwise there would be no order to the universe, and God would indeed be capricious and cruel.

I don't know what it is that you just said.  In your view, god created humans (hands and all) and defined what 'physical ways' are.  according to theists god is perfect and incapable of imperfection; so all that is has to be to his liking and intent.   

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 30, 2023, 12:20:19 PMDoes God have "free will"?

Is God omniscient?

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 03:17:29 PMIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

Or even Bugs Bunny or Pecos Bill! 

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:49:01 PMGod relies on human hands and physical ways

That just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 02, 2023, 12:01:18 PMThat just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

It also seems a bit contrary to the idea of free will, if God is using us like puppets.

(https://media.tenor.com/wUcKiHvc0QUAAAAC/stop-touching-me-achmed.gif)

QuoteIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.
 

I don't see where you are coming from; all the years of study in the world and a bad set of luck can turn a run-of-the-mill surgery into a death. God, luck, whatever - it's a factor as well, and if someone wants to stay in it's good side I don't see any reason not to thank it.

Already paying the doctor enough, he doesn't need to be thanked - at least not in a privatized medicine country.

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 02, 2023, 12:01:18 PMThat just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

God gives us choice. We have parameters, laws of the world, that we are subjected to. But, God still communicates with us, and as we draw nearer and create space to listen and meld our faith into works, we're better able to be God's feet and hands.

In the Bible, God uses dreams often to communicate. Some required interpretations while others were forthright with instructions. But, no one had to act on it.

In Sunday School, we were talking about Joseph having so many dreams (telling him that Mary was carrying the Messiah, that Herod was on his way to kill Jesus so go to Egypt, and later that Herod was dead so they could return).

One of the kids frowned and said how he wouldn't listen because God's can't make him do stuff. I said that's true, and we wondered together what could have happened if Joseph hadn't believed or listened. God has information that can help and protect us, but we must first be reachable and then be willing to act on it.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 02, 2023, 12:11:03 PMIt also seems a bit contrary to the idea of free will, if God is using us like puppets.

(https://media.tenor.com/wUcKiHvc0QUAAAAC/stop-touching-me-achmed.gif)

Giving information or making requests is not using someone like a puppet. We can choose to act on it or not.

Most people don't even bother to listen...

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 30, 2023, 05:11:23 PMI don't know what it is that you just said.  In your view, god created humans (hands and all) and defined what 'physical ways' are.  according to theists god is perfect and incapable of imperfection; so all that is has to be to his liking and intent.   

He created us in his image, but we are not the exact same. We're bound by the rules of this universe, subjected to a myriad of forces that we both understand and that we have yet to grapple with. God wanted us to have choices and experiences--and to choose love even when it's hard. Sacrifice would be meaningless without free will. Love would also be meaningless.

Yet we know it is the only thing of lasting value. Well, I know it, and I hope you do as well.

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 03:17:29 PMIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

I have my evidence that God worked to heal me, and there's plenty of similar anecdotal experiences.

Should I not celebrate my recovery, in light of so many still with Graves disease and even more grave diseases? Is it wrong to be happy, when others are simultaneously sad? Is it wrong to be thankful that I am healed? Why?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2023, 12:35:48 PMI don't know why your statement reminds me of this phrase that theists love to utter--'There but for the grace of God, go I.'  What I did not realize when I said it myself, is that I was saying that God loves me, but apparently not you.
Hubris and religious people go hand-in-hand.

I don't think I often used they phrase, but I'm weeding it out anyway now. It seems rather flippant at best and patronizing and cruel at worst..

Quote from: Dreamer on February 02, 2023, 11:35:38 PMwe wondered together what could have happened if Joseph hadn't believed or listened.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/026/826/Screen_Shot_2018-08-01_at_2.28.00_PM.jpg)

I mean, I hate to break it to ya, but some guy having dreams that his wife was knocked up by God prooobably wasn't the original story, but a later embellishment created by people who came to worship this Jesus figure he probably never even met.  And do you have any idea how many people claimed to be born from a god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities) back in those times?  It was also not unheard of for kings on shall we say unstable political footing (or to cover up being bastard-born) to claim to this god or that god as his father.

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 03, 2023, 12:49:59 AM(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/026/826/Screen_Shot_2018-08-01_at_2.28.00_PM.jpg)

I mean, I hate to break it to ya, but some guy having dreams that his wife was knocked up by God prooobably wasn't the original story, but a later embellishment created by people who came to worship this Jesus figure he probably never even met.  And do you have any idea how many people claimed to be born from a god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities) back in those times?  It was also not unheard of for kings on shall we say unstable political footing (or to cover up being bastard-born) to claim to this god or that god as his father.

Joseph's dream about Mary is probably one of the more believable parts of Jesus' origin story. I think it's very likely Mary got knocked up, but Joseph wasn't the father. Mary claimed to still be a virgin, which, of course, is absurd. Joseph makes plans to quietly end his wedding arrangements, because he's not cruel enough to have Mary dragged into the streets to be stoned to death. However, Joseph goes to bed that night and has a dream of an angel telling him what he wants to hear. In reality, it's not a miracle, or an actual angel visiting him. It's just his subconscious giving him justification to remain with Mary, offering him relief from his immense disappointment.

Maybe he didn't even totally believe it. Maybe he told everyone he was the father, and he just couldn't wait until after marriage. Doesn't matter, except that he stuck with her after his dream.

I also believe the story where Jesus' family comes to collect Jesus, because they fear he has lost his mind, and Jesus blows them off. It doesn't sound like his family really believed he was the Messiah either. Heck, Jesus even notes how his hometown was the least receptive of his message. They saw him grow up, and knew he was just a regular guy. He had to go out and find total strangers to convince.

The rest is a bunch of nonsense, though. A census requiring people to return to their hometowns? Uhh... That's not how censuses work. The purpose of a census is to know how many people live in each area, for taxation purposes. If they wanted to know where everyone's place of origin was, just for curiousity's sake, they could have just asked. This feels like just a flimsy excuse to get Jesus to be born in the town of Bethlehem instead of the place they lived, for prophecy's sake.

King Herod feeling threatened by some random infant, enough to even execute all the infant boys in the town? Silly. Didn't happen.

Wise men following a star to a specific town? How...? It's a star. Stars move in the night sky as the Earth rotates. Was it just hanging over Jesus' head at all times, like a quest marker? Whatever. So they show up with gold, but not enough to make Jesus' family not poor, I guess. They find local shepherds worshipping him after being pointed there by angels. These shepherds apparently immediately forget about Jesus and don't bother telling anyone about the whole baby Christ thing or corroborating his story after he grows up.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 03, 2023, 12:02:14 AMI have my evidence that God worked to heal me,

Great. Show me the evidence and we can put this thing to bed.

Quoteand there's plenty of similar anecdotal experiences.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Plenty of people claim that they've been abducted by aliens. Saying random stuff isn't evidence.

QuoteShould I not celebrate my recovery, in light of so many still with Graves disease and even more grave diseases? Is it wrong to be happy, when others are simultaneously sad? Is it wrong to be thankful that I am healed? Why?

No it's not wrong to be thankful, as long as your gratitude is well directed.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 02, 2023, 11:45:41 PMHe created us in his image, but we are not the exact same. We're bound by the rules of this universe, subjected to a myriad of forces that we both understand and that we have yet to grapple with. God wanted us to have choices and experiences--and to choose love even when it's hard. Sacrifice would be meaningless without free will. Love would also be meaningless.

Yet we know it is the only thing of lasting value. Well, I know it, and I hope you do as well.

The bible does say god created man in his own image. Sort of:
Genesis 1, 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

and:
Genesis 2, 22:And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So which is it??   

You have stated this a few times: We're bound by the rules of this universe,.............
Yeah, we are.  But whatever those rules were they were created (as you assert) by god.  Is not your god the perfect creature and is perfect in every way?  And his one shinning standard is 'love'?!  If so, then the entire universe has to reflect that.  What is your definition of love, anyway?  Where does birth defects fit in?  where does the tape worm fit it?  Why all the bacterial and viral diseases come from?  Why MUST a human kill to live?  How does any of that reflect love?????
 

I find Dreamer a tad dishonest.
I saw what Dreamer wrote and later deleted.

Stick to what you type Dreamer, I don't really care that you didn't think that your doctor was worthy of your thanks for healing you but God is.

If you want a conversation with me... Say what you're thinking, and stick to it.

Why do none of these Christians understand that "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron?
🤔

I was in a field one day. A cow walked behind a bush, when it came out the other side it was a horse.
I saw it with my own eyes, so there you go.... Shape shifting animals are a thing.

Anecdotal evidence is irrefutable.

Quote from: ManUfan on February 03, 2023, 02:34:39 PMI find Dreamer a tad dishonest.
I saw what Dreamer wrote and later deleted.

Stick to what you type Dreamer, I don't really care that you didn't think that your doctor was worthy of your thanks for healing you but God is.

If you want a conversation with me... Say what you're thinking, and stick to it.

?? If I deleted anything, it was accidental. Happy to reverse it if there is such a mechanism.

 Not sure what you mean, though, as I have shared more than once that I thanked my doctor for her help. I also thanked God. Gratitude to God does not lessen gratitude to humans, and I wrote quite a bit on that..

Quote from: ManUfan on February 04, 2023, 06:23:11 AMI was in a field one day. A cow walked behind a bush, when it came out the other side it was a horse.
I saw it with my own eyes, so there you go.... Shape shifting animals are a thing.

Anecdotal evidence is irrefutable.

And yet my own experience is paramount, just as yours is to you. Assumptions must be tested and explored.

It was more than just the healing. It was the surety that it was coming, despite the doctor trying to curtail expectations.

The cool thing is, it doesn't lessen what happened, regardless of how anyone else chooses to interpret it.

It affects things the same as if someone believes that things fall to the ground due to invisible fairies rather than due to gravity. Gravity did its thing and will continue to do so, quite independent from anyone's understanding. God is likewise.

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 03, 2023, 08:11:09 PMWhy do none of these Christians understand that "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron?
🤔

But it's not. It's just not been studied in a scientifically rigorous way; or, as with my evidence, does not lend itself to replication. That is, it should be approached with caution and not construed as understanding the entire picture.

Anecdotal evidence can be collected and compiled for use in science, and this happens regularly with psychology and sociology, for instance.

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 03, 2023, 09:04:37 AMThe bible does say god created man in his own image. Sort of:
Genesis 1, 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

and:
Genesis 2, 22:And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So which is it??

One informs and details the other; they are not in contradiction.

The suffering in the world is due to sin. Sin is mistakes, anything that separates us from love. Sin is knowing what the right thing to do is, but not doing it. Free will is wonderful, but lots of risks as well.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 01:20:22 AMBut it's not. It's just not been studied in a scientifically rigorous way; or, as with my evidence, does not lend itself to replication. That is, it should be approached with caution and not construed as understanding the entire picture.

Anecdotal evidence can be collected and compiled for use in science, and this happens regularly with psychology and sociology, for instance.

A survey isn't the same as anecdotal evidence. A researcher forms sample sizes of a large enough size to justify representing the population, and they do it in a way to limit as many extraneous factors as possible. Disconnected, anecdotal accounts are a very biased way to approach a subject. In cases like yours, for example, all of the stories are coming from the survivors who were healed, not the people who died from their afflictions or survived but continued to live with severe symptoms. Those people are unable or uncompelled to tell their stories, hence why the anecdotal evidence given is not informative.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 12:58:41 AMAnd yet my own experience is paramount, just as yours is to you. Assumptions must be tested and explored.

Yeah so how were your assumptions tested and explored? What were the findings? Can you show me the evidence of the findings?
I'm guessing not.

QuoteIt was more than just the healing. It was the surety that it was coming, despite the doctor trying to curtail expectations.

It went better than the doctor anticipated therefore God?

QuoteThe cool thing is, it doesn't lessen what happened, regardless of how anyone else chooses to interpret it.

For you maybe. To me it just sounds like you got lucky. Nothing remarkable about it at all.

QuoteIt affects things the same as if someone believes that things fall to the ground due to invisible fairies rather than due to gravity. Gravity did its thing and will continue to do so, quite independent from anyone's understanding. God is likewise.

No God isn't likewise, I think that you're bright enough to know how the scientific method works..

Anyone can do what you're doing here.

"Ohhh it was a good job that I didn't take the train that day, someone was watching over me."

Not even slightly impressive.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 01:25:59 AMOne informs and details the other; they are not in contradiction.

The suffering in the world is due to sin. Sin is mistakes, anything that separates us from love. Sin is knowing what the right thing to do is, but not doing it. Free will is wonderful, but lots of risks as well.

Well, I do see it as a contradiction and a very, very important one.  In Gen 1, both male and female were created together, at the same time, and that was pronounced as good.  In Gen 2, man was created first and became the right hand man for god.  Woman came as an after thought, for god did not foresee (odd for a god) man would become lonely.  So, woman was made from man, and in essence, became man's servant.  Now the big three still considers that to be what is commanded by god--woman is from man and is meant to serve him. Patriarchy is a huge problem in almost all modern societies. 

As for 'sin', that is one of those catch-all words that mean what the speaker says it means.  Can you give me some examples of what would be a sin?  I think 'sin' is a useless word for it can mean some many things--but one example for me would be the practice of patriarchy; that has caused tremendous damage to a large portion of most societies.   

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2023, 02:54:18 AMA survey isn't the same as anecdotal evidence. A researcher forms sample sizes of a large enough size to justify representing the population, and they do it in a way to limit as many extraneous factors as possible. Disconnected, anecdotal accounts are a very biased way to approach a subject. In cases like yours, for example, all of the stories are coming from the survivors who were healed, not the people who died from their afflictions or survived but continued to live with severe symptoms. Those people are unable or uncompelled to tell their stories, hence why the anecdotal evidence given is not informative.

I don't offer it as qualitative proof; it is my evidence, my experience. Which is indeed irrefutable.

There's a plethora of scientific papers detailing anecdotes, and those form the basis for not only further study but also are used to support conclusions.

And what you described about surveys is what ideally happens; surveys are often biased and unrepresentative.

It takes funding for research. For most spiritual communities, belief in God is a matter of faith, not science. Who else would invest money?

And, it requires reproducible conditions.

So, someone would need to first contract Graves Disease. Okay, not too hard there; it's not rare. Then, they would need to have a leading from God that they're going to be healed and accept that. Not so easy.

I've never had a message from God like that; a knowing and peace filled me, and I wasn't worried. If I could choose, I would be healed from complex PTSD. The treatment for Graves is much more straightforward and doesn't have nearly as big of an emotional/mental impact. But, I didn't get that.

Obviously, God doesn't heal everyone or everything, so the fact that not everyone is healed does not contradict that I was healed by God.

There's no claim that God heals everyone here on Earth. Or if you believe, or have enough faith, that God will heal your body. If that were my claim, then even one anecdote would be enough to refute it.

I am a former Christian. I was very devout, and for a period of...maybe five years? I felt very close to God. Often felt certain that God was telling one thing or another, but that feeling was extremely unreliable. It's one of the reasons I stopped believing. I wasn't going to stick my neck out just for God to fail to follow through. And if my own thoughts couldn't be discerned from God's, then it's basically the toss of a coin. Why even bother?

In my experience, it's very easy to trigger a spiritual experience in someone who is receptive to it. Churches, consciously or otherwise, have been structured to make it as easy as possible. They use emotionally provocative music to influence their audience. That combined with being surrounded by others with similar beliefs, it's a powerful thing. Basically a group delusion. Just look at footage of Pentecostals "speaking tongues" and being, "slain by the Spirit." Some are faking, I'm sure, but some are being genuine.

Quote from: ManUfan on February 05, 2023, 05:11:19 AMYeah so how were your assumptions tested and explored? What were the findings? Can you show me the evidence of the findings?
I'm guessing not.

It went better than the doctor anticipated therefore God?

For you maybe. To me it just sounds like you got lucky. Nothing remarkable about it at all.

No God isn't likewise, I think that you're bright enough to know how the scientific method works..

Anyone can do what you're doing here.

"Ohhh it was a good job that I didn't take the train that day, someone was watching over me."

Not even slightly impressive.

Sorry that my experience isn't dramatic enough for you 😂

God let me know that I would be healed. I was; therefore, God. It is not the same as layering meaning over past events; it preceded and predicted the outcome.

I don't need to go into detail about my examinations and conclusions beyond the substantial amount I already have.. I am unable to give myself Graves again nor have God let me know that healing was coming.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 01:54:30 PMSorry that my experience isn't dramatic enough for you 😂

God let me know that I would be healed. I was; therefore, God. It is not the same as layering meaning over past events; it preceded and predicted the outcome.

I don't need to go into detail about my examinations and conclusions beyond the substantial amount I already have.. I am unable to give myself Graves again nor have God let me know that healing was coming.

H

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2023, 01:52:16 PMI am a former Christian. I was very devout, and for a period of...maybe five years? I felt very close to God. Often felt certain that God was telling one thing or another, but that feeling was extremely unreliable. It's one of the reasons I stopped believing. I wasn't going to stick my neck out just for God to fail to follow through. And if my own thoughts couldn't be discerned from God's, then it's basically the toss of a coin. Why even bother?

In my experience, it's very easy to trigger a spiritual experience in someone who is receptive to it. Churches, consciously or otherwise, have been structured to make it as easy as possible. They use emotionally provocative music to influence their audience. That combined with being surrounded by others with similar beliefs, it's a powerful thing. Basically a group delusion. Just look at footage of Pentecostals "speaking tongues" and being, "slain by the Spirit." Some are faking, I'm sure, but some are being genuine.

I see it similar to a muscle. The more you practice, the stronger and more reliable it becomes. When you first begin playing a sport, you'll win every now and then; that condition doesn't persist with training. That is to say, there's a point in following God, even when we get it wrong.

For me, guilt and anxiety can often color what I think God is wanting me to do. I try to temper that in a variety of ways: reading the Bible and other sacred texts, waiting worship, emotional exploration to see if it's just my own anxieties, prayer, even mantras to address feelings of guilt and anxiety. And to remind me that I am a child of God and under God's protection and authority, I sometimes wear a hat or scarf or snood like women used to do a long time ago (and some still do).

I also make sure that it passes through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as myself as a standard litmus test. Jesus refers to these two tenants multiple times, as fulfilling the Law and Prophets, as the greatest commandment, and the secret to eternal life.

A lot of churches are as you described. I remember as a preteen attending a revival at a very large, very loud church. Lots of whooping and yelling, dancing, "tongues"... The pastor put his hand on my forehead and screamed a prayer in combination English and "prayer language" over me. His hand shook, and he kept pushing on my head. I was surrounded by people, many touching me. My neck was hurting, and I hate loud noises, so I was ready for him to move on. Then the pastor pushed pretty hard, and I remember hands pulling me down. I didn't get that after he prayed for someone, the expectation was that they would pass out or lose control of their bodies in response. When I didn't, he was trying to encourage me to fall back. And apparently had arranged with the deacons to just take down anyone who didn't follow the stage directions. I cried for a while on that floor, and I'm sure people thought I was having some divine experience or something. I was scared and overstimulated, and to be honest, I can still feel that sense of violation creeping up in me. Those types of churches still make me leery...

But, I love the Friends. Many Meetings (Quaker church) don't use music at all, nor have prepared messages. We often refer to the Light, and there are people who only use that language rather than God because.. they're agnostics or atheists lol

We believe that God dwells within, and God can speak to all of us, to our condition. We can cultivate that inner Light, and that work is easiest in community.

My Meeting does have a pastor, but we believe that everyone can be a minister. We have a time of silence, and sometimes people share messages. It's refreshing to hear doubts and struggles amid words of blessings, proverbs, etc. It's like the opposite of that uncomfortable revival experience.

Dreamer, is God omniscient?

And is God free?

Quote from: ManUfan on February 05, 2023, 02:18:45 PMHow did God let you know? In a dream?
Email?
WhatsApp?

You said that you had evidence that God healed you..  I'm not seeing any.

BTW instead of taking what you've said at face value, I've had a look at NHS England's website. What makes you think that you're healed? You could be in the same position that you were in a couple of years from now..

Looking back at your posts, you know that too.

Lol I'm not going to post my medical documents, sorry/not sorry.


I already answered your first questions.

I say healed because I don't have the antibodies (antigens?) of what was attacking my thyroid (TSH 3?) I'm not positive because I've been in remission for many years now. With Graves, it's an autoimmune disease where your body attacks your thyroid, and there's particular evidence that your hyperthyroidism is caused by Graves. Not only did my hyperthyroidism go away, but there's been no evidence of Graves for years, since remission.

This is not typical, as many have their thyroidism resolve as far as normal thyroid production, yet continue to have Graves antibodies. They are effectively in remission. I claim my healing due to both lack of hyperthyroid conditions in my blood as well as the fact that there is no lingering evidence of Graves in my body according to my yearly labs.

There's a possibility that I could get Graves again; if I did, would this 8-9 year span of healing cease to be? Your comments seem to imply that absurdity.

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 03:22:59 PMDreamer, is God omniscient?

And is God free?

That's my understanding.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 01:34:55 PMThere's no claim that God heals everyone here on Earth. Or if you believe, or have enough faith, that God will heal your body. If that were my claim, then even one anecdote would be enough to refute it.

My question would be why would anybody need to be healed??  If god is perfect, then healing would not ever be needed.  the universe, including Earth and its life forms would be perfect.  If so, then what would need to be healed?  Or god the perfect built in destruction and imperfections; if so, why?  That does not reflect well on any perfect god.  Is your god perfect?

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 03:29:07 PMLol I'm not going to post my medical documents, sorry/not sorry.


I already answered your first questions.

I say healed because I don't have the antibodies (antigens?) of what was attacking my thyroid (TSH 3?) I'm not positive because I've been in remission for many years now. With Graves, it's an autoimmune disease where your body attacks your thyroid, and there's particular evidence that your hyperthyroidism is caused by Graves. Not only did my hyperthyroidism go away, but there's been no evidence of Graves for years, since remission.

This is not typical, as many have their thyroidism resolve as far as normal thyroid production, yet continue to have Graves antibodies. They are effectively in remission. I claim my healing due to both lack of hyperthyroid conditions in my blood as well as the fact that there is no lingering evidence of Graves in my body according to my yearly labs.

There's a possibility that I could get Graves again; if I did, would this 8-9 year span of healing cease to be? Your comments seem to imply that absurdity.

O

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 03:30:06 PMThat's my understanding.

But God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

Ju

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 03:59:24 PMBut God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

O

Well, judging by the Old Testament, God is definitely an arsehole.

God allowed 2/3rds of his followers to die before he "granted" them a victory...doesn't give me a lot of confidence in ole god.

Yeah, but he won his bet with Satan. Or did he? I forget. 🤔

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 03:11:07 PMI see it similar to a muscle. The more you practice, the stronger and more reliable it becomes. When you first begin playing a sport, you'll win every now and then; that condition doesn't persist with training. That is to say, there's a point in following God, even when we get it wrong.

For me, guilt and anxiety can often color what I think God is wanting me to do. I try to temper that in a variety of ways: reading the Bible and other sacred texts, waiting worship, emotional exploration to see if it's just my own anxieties, prayer, even mantras to address feelings of guilt and anxiety. And to remind me that I am a child of God and under God's protection and authority, I sometimes wear a hat or scarf or snood like women used to do a long time ago (and some still do).

I also make sure that it passes through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as myself as a standard litmus test. Jesus refers to these two tenants multiple times, as fulfilling the Law and Prophets, as the greatest commandment, and the secret to eternal life.

A lot of churches are as you described. I remember as a preteen attending a revival at a very large, very loud church. Lots of whooping and yelling, dancing, "tongues"... The pastor put his hand on my forehead and screamed a prayer in combination English and "prayer language" over me. His hand shook, and he kept pushing on my head. I was surrounded by people, many touching me. My neck was hurting, and I hate loud noises, so I was ready for him to move on. Then the pastor pushed pretty hard, and I remember hands pulling me down. I didn't get that after he prayed for someone, the expectation was that they would pass out or lose control of their bodies in response. When I didn't, he was trying to encourage me to fall back. And apparently had arranged with the deacons to just take down anyone who didn't follow the stage directions. I cried for a while on that floor, and I'm sure people thought I was having some divine experience or something. I was scared and overstimulated, and to be honest, I can still feel that sense of violation creeping up in me. Those types of churches still make me leery...

But, I love the Friends. Many Meetings (Quaker church) don't use music at all, nor have prepared messages. We often refer to the Light, and there are people who only use that language rather than God because.. they're agnostics or atheists lol

We believe that God dwells within, and God can speak to all of us, to our condition. We can cultivate that inner Light, and that work is easiest in community.

My Meeting does have a pastor, but we believe that everyone can be a minister. We have a time of silence, and sometimes people share messages. It's refreshing to hear doubts and struggles amid words of blessings, proverbs, etc. It's like the opposite of that uncomfortable revival experience.

I am similar. I'm an introvert, so my Pentecostal church I grew up in never appealed to me. When my family switched to a Lutheran church, it was refreshing. The pastor actually talked like a normal human being. He didn't act like a fucking lunatic, use church jargon, slam his fists on the pulpit, or speak gibberish.

The music was an improvement too. I can't stand Gospel music, especially when the music minister repeats the chorus as many times as he feels like. It was less loud, and didn't use language that was two centuries out of date.

That was when I actually started enjoying going to church. It helps when the experience isn't an assault on all the senses.

Quote from: ManUfan on February 05, 2023, 04:12:27 PMJust to add.

Dreamer's condition or previous condition is in no way life threatening if treated in a timely fashion by health care professionals.

Leave it to prayer and God, I'm not too sure.

Yes, and it was not my intention to imply otherwise. It can be debilitating, rarely life threatening.

I have two areas of lingering concern: eye issues and thyroid storm. Sometimes even in remission, the eyes can develop a condition where they are very dry and actually protrude forward. My vanity fears this, besides it looks uncomfortable and painful. Thyroid storm isn't a great risk in terms of probability, in my understanding, but I always note its possibility on work stuff, conferences, etc. If I suddenly start hallucinating, I want them to check my blood ASAP as they're strapping me to the bed. That would be horrid enough, but to die if they didn't catch it right away...

Argh, late nights bring trauma to the forefront. I've lately watched my niece restrained to the bed as a psychiatric hold. I've seen it before; the first time she was 10...

I was religiously conditioned to reject psychology and treatments in favor of faith healing. And, if I (or whomever) wasn't healed, there were some likely reasons given by my church: God was testing me, the Devil was threatened by my faith and seeking to destroy me, my faith was too little, my faith was impure or otherwise tainted, I was not in obedience with God, I was breaking commandments, I was deviating from God's path, God was protecting me from something worse, I was being put through trials to refine myself, and there were others...

God can and does heal, but he doesn't disrupt our entire universe to do so. We have rules and forces governing our world, and if you've ever had someone sit in *your* spot (Nevermind that there's no seating chart or rules or guidelines, you've just always sat there), then you have an inkling of why that is. Beyond that, it's the condition of the heart that God greatly regards--we should seek out and respond to the needs of those around us. In those acts of love and service, our hearts are both broken and healed.

Somewhat connected to the concept of faith healing...

This afternoon, a severe headache suddenly fell on me, and the next thing I knew I was waking up-still with the headache-to my son wanting cuddles before bed. I remembered that I have my headscarves in my room, and I grabbed a large one. When I knot it and pull it tight, it lessens the pain better than pain killers.

I came into this knowledge when I was beginning to take steps of faithfulness to God's direction in my life. For years, I had felt the call to wear head coverings. But I didn't want to stand out; too much, too weird even for me..

So, I made a 1-year commitment. There's two Biblical ideas that prompted me... One, was that by wearing a head coverings, it is a reminder that I have someone (God) over me, to cover and protect me. Two, was that Christians were called to wear head coverings if their neighbors of another religion were being persecuted for doing the same. (There are also Biblical reasons that there's no need to cover to be in alignment with God--in today's culture where it is not shameful for a woman to have short and even fully shorn hair, there's no call to do it at all, to be right with God. That is, it's left up to us to decide if it's right for us.) I felt called to do it, and I decided to see where obedience to God would get me..

I have suffered from sinus headaches for years, often unable to read, drive, or do anything but be in pain and sleep. They told me surgery could help, but I know three people who had sinus surgery, and the relief was gone within a couple years of the surgery.

I never would have made this connection to such an easy, non-invasive treatment option, if I hadn't been receptive to God's leadings. And to think I could have enjoyed years of reduced pain and better ability to function, if I would have listened sooner...

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 06:11:39 PMYeah, but he won his bet with Satan. Or did he? I forget. 🤔

I think the Book of Job is the most troubling. I have not read it since my understanding has evolved/improved...

Last time I read it I was 16, and I was playing Sarah (the wife who leaves Job after he loses everything else; but-spoiler alert-she returns in the play) in a play called JB, based on Job.

I was atheist/agnostic then, and it pissed me off the whims and capriciousness of these immortal beings making bets on human misery. I confess I haven't read it in its entirety since then largely due to the potential for cognitive dissonance

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 03:59:24 PMBut God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Do we know which of the thousands of gods Dreamer is talking about? Wouldn't want to worship the wrong god, he'll kill your ass for that.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 22, 2023, 01:53:52 AMFor my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Are you sure?????  I thought Bugs Bunny said that!  Or was it Pacos Bill.

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 22, 2023, 07:43:14 PMAre you sure?????  I thought Bugs Bunny said that!  Or was it Pacos Bill.

Bugs said "something something something Albuquerque something something."

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 22, 2023, 06:38:48 PMDo we know which of the thousands of gods Dreamer is talking about? Wouldn't want to worship the wrong god, he'll kill your ass for that.

God. God who doesn't kill your ass for that.

Quote from: Dreamer on February 22, 2023, 09:14:16 PMGod. God who doesn't kill your ass for that.

We can agree that no god kills anybody.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2023, 07:37:47 PMI am similar. I'm an introvert, so my Pentecostal church I grew up in never appealed to me. When my family switched to a Lutheran church, it was refreshing. The pastor actually talked like a normal human being. He didn't act like a fucking lunatic, use church jargon, slam his fists on the pulpit, or speak gibberish.

The music was an improvement too. I can't stand Gospel music, especially when the music minister repeats the chorus as many times as he feels like. It was less loud, and didn't use language that was two centuries out of date.

That was when I actually started enjoying going to church. It helps when the experience isn't an assault on all the senses.

The first time I attended a Pentecostal service, it gave me a headache. I thought I'd have some relief when the pastor started talking. But he declared that every other flavor and every other religion has it so horribly wrong and are going to hell, amen.

Churches are dying out, and one of the reasons is the dubious entertainment attempts. We have something real to explore together; we don't need to assault the senses or terrify people or smugly judge or invoke endless platitudes to make everyone feel good. We can meet people where they are and celebrate their inner light, face challenges together. Churches have to change, to be places for healing and peace for all.