Muslims demanded establishment of an Islamic state in Britain

[CloneKai]

I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

I'm kinda frustrated by the self-appointed "liberals" who excuse the blatant Wahhabism (if that term still applies) of Muslims and ignore the silent "moderate" Muslim majority who say nothing against their reactionary counterparts. #NotInMyName my ass. Decry them and single them out, don't play the silent game.

Also, why the hell does the EU and the "liberals" play these terrorists-are-not-real-Muslims card at every turn? They sure have the backing of the Qur'an behind them; wake the fuck up.

I guess I wish the politicians in EU would take a much tougher stance against religion in general and Islam in particular.

most silent muslim moderate sees injustice all over the place, so that is why they don't raise the voice against one group who is kinda fighting injustice of one another with injustice. especially if they think the west are evil thus apparently doing evil becomes an option.
here are some muslim views you can see for yourself
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?457108-Pray4Paris
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?457524-Did-Prophet-Muhammad-%28pbuh%29-tell-muslims-to-attack-civillians
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?457651-ISIS-fans-do-you-remember

though i wish muslim would charge these extremist muslim with blasphemy laws instead.

"Also, why the hell does the EU and the "liberals" play these terrorists-are-not-real-Muslims card at every turn? They sure have the backing of the Qur'an behind them; wake the fuck up."
i would guess they don't want to influence the hate crime against muslim population and maybe keep their allies.

[CloneKai]

Muslim states should never get nukes, and we should make assure of that, IMO.

hahahaha
too late
my country is said to have more than 100 nukes
and now are working on portable nukes

[Hakurei Reimu]

So it's of no consequence that a significant percentage think it's ok because not all of them will do it? I call bullshit.

Even if they aren't themselves engaging in it, they are enabling others to do so. Without that support structure do you really think so many would do so?

The point is that we must differentiate the people who would only support blowing themselves up to people actually blowing themselves up, and with those who would wage jihad on the west.

Another thing is that "support" is a weasel word. It only sounds significant, but is so vagely defined that it could mean anything, from only lip-service (which hardly helps terrorists) to material support.

Finally, people probably have a specific scenario in mind when they envision supporting a suicide bomber. The west's behavior in the Middle East has been... less than stellar, to say the least. It's a highly unsymmetric struggle, in a region where we don't seem to be doing much other than occupy and prevent people from developing the way they themselves would like, making it seem like 'freedom' is something only those of European descent deserve.

And then I remember, we Americans fought a war for exactly those reasons, against the British. We fought the British because the British were interfering with our shit. The way that we are now interfering with the Middle East's shit, interference that we've engaged in for decades up to the present moment.

There are certainly scenarios under which I would cheerfully not only support suicide bombings, but be one of its willing participants: if I thought that blowing myself up in Cthulu's throat would stop or waylay it, I would certainly do it. Cthulu's return would be a serious fucking deal that normal considerations of right and wrong make moot very quickly. This is an extreme scenario, but then I hold life to be very dear. It is easy to see that a doctrine that devalues life would then do similar things to other people in less extreme circumstances. To them, we are Cthulu.

Junkies also have people who refuse to condemn their bullshit, look at how much good that does.

It doesn't, which is why it's up to the rest of us to set people straight. However, nobody thinks that killing the junkie is called for.

True. It also includes throwing homosexuals off roofs while a crowd below cheers, beheading journalists, and shooting or raping children.

All terrible things, to be sure. And when they do it here, we bring charges against them.

And when a Christian does horrible things obstenoulsly in the name of the Lord, Christians are just as quick to disconnect Christianity from their actions. Sometimes, they're right.

I'm against generalizations, and I realize that most Muslims aren't a personal threat to me. That being said, forgive me if I'm a little wary towards people who follow a homophobic and sexist religion. The same is true of devote Christians.

And the Christians have been largely broght to heel, haven't they? Sort of. What is the difference between Islam and Christianity that means that Islam won't? Nobody has ever been able to present an argument that has ever been convincing to me.

Furthermore, we allow those devout Christians to keep their religion. As long as they obey secular laws, they're allowed to be as Christian as they like. I'm just willing to extend the same curtesy to Muslims.

Yet we're free to condemn and criticize Christians and Christianity. When it comes to Muslims and Islam? "Christians did bad things as well!" "The west is to blame!" "CRUSADES!!!"

Have I ever argued this? No? Then it's just a strawman.

The only argument that I have ever put forward that parallels any of the above is, "Christians does bad things as well!" But note the tense of the verb: not 'did' â€" 'does.' Christian african shitholes also do exactly the shit you describe and dispise. Yes, present tense.

When a country is reduced to shithole status, the ugly side of both Christianity and Islam come out in their populations.

I consider myself as a realist when it comes to religion. It's shit.

No argument that religion is shit. Yet we allow these people to keep their religion despite the fact that it is shit, and will under the right circumstances cause the shit to surface and harm people.

[CloneKai]

An interview with Asra Nomani, a Muslim woman fighting against not only Islam but the fucking liberals who side with the terrorists - her own words.

Bill Maher isn't exactly fair with muslim either
other than in the last show in which he finally asked why do they hate us
he always went out of his way to blame muslims
even 14 year old kid wasn't safe from him

as long he doesn't address the main issue like why radicals are acting out now and why were they so quite before 9/11?
and why are most of the muslim world stuck in the past and what can we do to help them to move forward, instead of outright taking advantage of them

[Baruch]

We have all learned to live with the bomb, and I'm not planning on dying from worry.  Perhaps concern would be a better word.  I assume your response is to create the impression of a cavalier individual who doesn't care:  "Oh Hell, give Iran the bomb.  It will be OK."  Or maybe it was an attempt at dark humor.  This isn't the same game from 1945, and the players are changing.  The Soviet Union wasn't a nation state driven by crazy imams with a belief in the glory of destruction in the name of a non existent god as the path to heavenly reward.  Yes, the US and Russia may be crazy, but we are talking about a new level of armed crazy that increases the risk.  If you think this is a good idea, we will just have to disagree.

Did I say I was in favor of proliferation?  Hardly ... but the cat is out of the bag for anyone awake for the last 50 years.  Dark humor.  But if you think the Russians or the Americans are sane ... you haven't been paying attention.  First world chauvinism.  Broken arrow.  Yikes!

[Baruch]

CloneKai ... Bill Maher is another Rudyard Kipling.  Someone from the Sub-continent would know that it is elephants all the way down ... or is it turtles ;-))  You may be, or recently were, Muslim, but before that your Central Asian part was pagan, and your Gandharan part was Buddhist ... and before that your Indus part was Hindu.  You are all of those things ... without your specific past ... you wouldn't be here.  People don't extend into space very much, but we extend back into time.  If you want a metaphysical outline of my position, that is the same as summarizing what I have posted for the last 5 months.

[Jack89]

CloneKai ... Bill Maher is another Rudyard Kipling.  Someone from the Sub-continent would know that it is elephants all the way down ... or is it turtles ;-))  You may be, or recently were, Muslim, but before that your Central Asian part was pagan, and your Gandharan part was Buddhist ... and before that your Indus part was Hindu.  You are all of those things ... without your specific past ... you wouldn't be here.  People don't extend into space very much, but we extend back into time.  If you want a metaphysical outline of my position, that is the same as summarizing what I have posted for the last 5 months.

Which, if you're like most people, is a summary of change rather than a clear position.  Unless, of course, you've figured it out, think you have, or have just said to hell with it.

[Baruch]

Which, if you're like most people, is a summary of change rather than a clear position.  Unless, of course, you've figured it out, think you have, or have just said to hell with it.

Just multifaceted plus devil's advocate ... not much change there.
-------
For CloneKai I will summarize in Muslim terms (cross cultural translation):

I follow the caravan of my fathers, but I am hospitable to my neighbors.

I am well aware of the excellence of Islam.  I appreciate the beauty of Arabic and the profundity of the Quran.  May your Al-Islam be crowned with Al-Iman, and your Al-Iman be crowned with Al-Ihsan.  In that way I hope all Ummah are blessed.

I am in life now, and I am in death now ... I have no true past nor true future, only the illusion.  Hard and easy, unpleasant and pleasant are the ways of men, but lack of Ad-din makes it harder and more unpleasant.  Wherever and whenever there is Al-Ihsan ... there and then is Jannah.
-----
But I can put it into other cultural translations as well ;-)

[facebook164]

Just multifaceted plus devil's advocate ... not much change there.
-------
For CloneKai I will summarize in Muslim terms (cross cultural translation):

I follow the caravan of my fathers, but I am hospitable to my neighbors.

I am well aware of the excellence of Islam.  I appreciate the beauty of Arabic and the profundity of the Quran.  May your Al-Islam be crowned with Al-Iman, and your Al-Iman be crowned with Al-Ihsan.  In that way I hope all Ummah are blessed.

I am in life now, and I am in death now ... I have no true past nor true future, only the illusion.  Hard and easy, unpleasant and pleasant are the ways of men, but lack of Ad-din makes it harder and more unpleasant.  Wherever and whenever there is Al-Ihsan ... there and then is Jannah.
-----
But I can put it into other cultural translations as well ;-)

Weird... Both the bible, yes all of it" and the quran are shallow. Bitwise poetical, but still shallow. "Profound" is as misplaced as can be.

[Baruch]

Weird... Both the bible, yes all of it" and the quran are shallow. Bitwise poetical, but still shallow. "Profound" is as misplaced as can be.

Greek scriptures ... the Odyssey, the plays, the dialogs of Plato ... are part of the Greco-Roman heritage of the West.  Shallow?

[facebook164]

Greek scriptures ... the Odyssey, the plays, the dialogs of Plato ... are part of the Greco-Roman heritage of the West.  Shallow?

I didnt mention theese.
Good entertainment. But knowledgewise shallow. I would except plato, which anyway should be read with caution.

[SGOS]

Did I say I was in favor of proliferation?

That's an irrelevant distraction since I never claimed you said that.  I said, " I assume your response is to create the impression of a cavalier individual who doesn't care."  A different observation altogether.

But if you think the Russians or the Americans are sane ... you haven't been paying attention.

Another distraction, since I said just the opposite.

[josephpalazzo]

Bill Maher isn't exactly fair with muslim either
other than in the last show in which he finally asked why do they hate us
he always went out of his way to blame muslims
even 14 year old kid wasn't safe from him

as long he doesn't address the main issue like why radicals are acting out now and why were they so quite before 9/11?
and why are most of the muslim world stuck in the past and what can we do to help them to move forward, instead of outright taking advantage of them

Maher's beef is primarily with the Lefties, which he himself identifies with, and their knee-jerk reaction to side with Muslims every time that Islam is criticized. His perception of Islam is no different than his perception of Christianity: both are beliefs in fantasy. So there should be no reason why the Lefties should treat Islam favorably. His other point is that Muslims have no grounds to hate the West. And if they do, it's based primarily on religious grounds. He doesn't accept the excuse that the West had at one point in time colonized the Muslim world. Africa was also colonized by the Western world, yet does not carry this kind of terrorism that Muslims do.

Please accept this as my perception of Bill Maher's thinking. He himself might disagree with my perception of him... :93:

[Baruch]

SGOS ... just my attempt to grasp at what you and others are saying ... not trying to put words in your mouth ;-)

Josephpalazzo ... as for me, I don't need to do anything beyond what I am already doing ... not even if the terrorists blow up Brussels (which is on alert as of yesterday) ... to attack the EU and Nato.  Would I jump, each time the Luftwaffe dropped a bomb on London, if I were in London in 1940?  One simply has to choose life over death, and stop being a ninny (I don't mean you or anyone in particular).  I have prayer beads I can clutch, but I don't even know where I put them.

[CloneKai]

CloneKai ... Bill Maher is another Rudyard Kipling.  Someone from the Sub-continent would know that it is elephants all the way down ... or is it turtles ;-))  You may be, or recently were, Muslim, but before that your Central Asian part was pagan, and your Gandharan part was Buddhist ... and before that your Indus part was Hindu.  You are all of those things ... without your specific past ... you wouldn't be here.  People don't extend into space very much, but we extend back into time.  If you want a metaphysical outline of my position, that is the same as summarizing what I have posted for the last 5 months.

Now i remember asking you, why the history would matter especially if we don't remember it?
would you have this extending back into time position, even if you didn't know your own family. they are reason why you are here but they are not, what you are.

i don't understand philosophy, not my thing i suppose