| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: World View: The Concept |
  |
|
James Sire in his book The Universe Next Door defines a world view as:
"A worldview is a commitment, a fundamental orientation of the heart, that can be expressed as a story or in a set of presuppositions (assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false) which we hold (either consciously or subconciously, consistently or inconsistently) about the basic constitution of reality, and that provides our foundation on which we live and move and have our being"
What do you think about that defintion?
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
LakeGeorgeMan
Forum Sheriff
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 413
Local time: 12:25 AM
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | James Sire in his book The Universe Next Door defines a world view as:
"A worldview is a commitment, a fundamental orientation of the heart, that can be expressed as a story or in a set of presuppositions (assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false) which we hold (either consciously or subconciously, consistently or inconsistently) about the basic constitution of reality, and that provides our foundation on which we live and move and have our being"
What do you think about that defintion? |
I think it's a bunch of pretentious, inane, nebulous, contradictory, metaphorical blather. (imagine...a worldview is a commitment to fundamentally orient your heart to hold something inconsistently so you can move your bowels.
Hopefully it's not to late to ask Mr. Sire for your money back.
...oh yeah...make sure and tell him that there's no 'Universe Next Door' to me...just my neighbor's house.
_________________
...Oozing my brain chemicals in your general direction... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Meh_Gerbil wrote: | James Sire in his book The Universe Next Door defines a world view as:
"A worldview is a commitment, a fundamental orientation of the heart, that can be expressed as a story or in a set of presuppositions (assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false) which we hold (either consciously or subconciously, consistently or inconsistently) about the basic constitution of reality, and that provides our foundation on which we live and move and have our being"
What do you think about that defintion? |
I think it's a bunch of pretentious, inane, nebulous, contradictory, metaphorical blather. (imagine...a worldview is a commitment to fundamentally orient your heart to hold something inconsistently so you can move your bowels.
Hopefully it's not to late to ask Mr. Sire for your money back.
...oh yeah...make sure and tell him that there's no 'Universe Next Door' to me...just my neighbor's house. |
I figured there would be an objection along that line (concerning 'heart').
To clarify:
In his book he defines "heart" as the central defining element of the human person.
It is the seat of emotion, desire, will, spirituality (if applicable) and intellect.
Such that LGM could say that he loves his wife with all of his heart without it being blather.
Do you have a problem with the term "heart" in that context?
If so, how would you change the definition?
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FlatEarth1024
Hey, Everybody!
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4148
Local time: 5:25 AM
Location: Dippin' my balls in it.
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It sounds a lot like religion to me...a fundamental tenet based on something that is potentially completely unprovable if not outright false, but that you nevertheless hold as the tangible driving force in your life and shapes your very existence.
Yeah, that sounds a lot like religious conviction to me.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FlatEarth1024 wrote: | It sounds a lot like religion to me...a fundamental tenet based on something that is potentially completely unprovable if not outright false, but that you nevertheless hold as the tangible driving force in your life and shapes your very existence.
Yeah, that sounds a lot like religious conviction to me. |
I think the phrase assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false is an acknowledgement that in any worldview a person may hold the underlying assumptions may be false, but not consciously false. False as a result of faulty thinking or an mistake. In short, I'd say any worldview held by a human being is going to have some assumptions which are false on one level or another. That individual just doesn't know they are false.
EDITED TO ADD: By acknowledging a worldview may be false (or partially false) it allows us to speak of the worldviews of different people even though those worldviews are mutually exclusive. If we held the definition to mean only that which is known universally to be true we'd be creating a definition that was unusuable.
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FlatEarth1024
Hey, Everybody!
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4148
Local time: 5:25 AM
Location: Dippin' my balls in it.
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | FlatEarth1024 wrote: | It sounds a lot like religion to me...a fundamental tenet based on something that is potentially completely unprovable if not outright false, but that you nevertheless hold as the tangible driving force in your life and shapes your very existence.
Yeah, that sounds a lot like religious conviction to me. |
I think the phrase assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false is an acknowledgement that in any worldview a person may hold the underlying assumptions may be false, but not consciously false. False as a result of faulty thinking or an mistake. In short, I'd say any worldview held by a human being is going to have some assumptions which are false on one level or another. That individual just doesn't know they are false.
EDITED TO ADD: By acknowledging a worldview may be false (or partially false) it allows us to speak of the worldviews of different people even though those worldviews are mutually exclusive. If we held the definition to mean only that which is known universally to be true we'd be creating a definition that was unusuable. |
I guess that by either definition, it could pretty much be boiled down to "That which the individual chooses to convince himself is true". Especially since 99% never know if we are right or wrong in our own lifetimes. So either way, it just comes down to that which you tell yourself to get you through the day, no?
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JBCuzISaidSo
Jaded Humanist
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 2143
Local time: 12:25 AM
Location: South Florida
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I found the Center Leo Apostel for Interdisciplinary Studies model of what a world view or world outlook to be a better read:
A worldview can be defined as a coherent set of bodies of knowledge concerning all aspects of our world. It is to allow us to construct a global image of the world and understand as many elements of our experience as possible. A worldview is a map that we use to orient and explain, from which we evaluate and act, and put forward prognoses and visions of the future. Hence: (i) orient; (ii) explain; (iii) evaluate; (iv) act and; (v) predict are the basic aspects of a worldview.
In a more structured way Apostel put forward these basic aspects as follows:
1. An ontology, a descriptive model of the world
2. An explanation of the world
3. A futurology, answering the question "where are we heading?"
4. Values, answers to ethical questions: "What should we do?"
5. A praxeology, or methodology, or theory of action.: "How should we attain our goals?"
6. An epistemology, or theory of knowledge. "What is true and false?"
7. An etiology. A constructed world-view should contain an account of its own "building blocks," its origins and construction.
I found that on Wiki of course. 
There are some interesting views of what a world view is believed to be shaped from (thus, also what it turns into) ranging from language dictating it to the heavier hitter like Apostel above.
Because I also found this it's worth sharing:
world·view
n. In both senses also called Weltanschauung.
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
--German : Welt, world (from Middle High German wërlt, from Old High German weralt; see wī-ro- in Indo-European roots) + Anschauung, view (from Middle High German anschouwunge, observation, mystical contemplation : an-, on, at from Old High German ana-; see anlage + schouwunge, look from schouwen, to look at, from Old High German scouwōn).
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakeGeorgeMan
Forum Sheriff
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 413
Local time: 12:25 AM
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Meh_Gerbil wrote: | James Sire in his book The Universe Next Door defines a world view as:
"A worldview is a commitment, a fundamental orientation of the heart, that can be expressed as a story or in a set of presuppositions (assumptions which may be true, partially true, or false) which we hold (either consciously or subconciously, consistently or inconsistently) about the basic constitution of reality, and that provides our foundation on which we live and move and have our being"
What do you think about that defintion? |
I think it's a bunch of pretentious, inane, nebulous, contradictory, metaphorical blather. (imagine...a worldview is a commitment to fundamentally orient your heart to hold something inconsistently so you can move your bowels.
Hopefully it's not to late to ask Mr. Sire for your money back.
...oh yeah...make sure and tell him that there's no 'Universe Next Door' to me...just my neighbor's house. |
I figured there would be an objection along that line (concerning 'heart').
|
Maybe I didn't make my opinion clear or forceful enough, I don't simply object to his use of the metaphor 'heart', the entire quote is simply a huge crock of crapola...aka bullshit.
But then, you already know how I feel about the bullshit term 'worldview'.
So it appears Mr. Sire has defined a single bullshit term, using a big pile of steaming, inane, contradictory, nebulous bullshit phrases, duct taped together. And he's getting paid for it...wonderful.
| Quote: |
To clarify:
In his book he defines "heart" as the central defining element of the human person.
|
Oops! We now know hearts pump blood and don't have much to do with 'defining' who we are. Tell Mr. Sire that people now get heart transplants, or artificial hearts, and don't become new persons.
| Quote: |
It is the seat of emotion, desire, will, spirituality (if applicable) and intellect.
|
Sorry...that would be the BRAIN. And all of those different capacities are performed in various specialized areas in the brain.
So...it's nice that Mr. Sire wants to define a new definition for heart, but some of us now know that it's our brain that processes sensory and hormonal input and that it's an almond shaped mass of nuclei located deep within the temporal lobes, medial to the hypothalamus, and adjacent to the hippocampus....called that Amygdala...that is responsible for our emotional responses.
| Quote: |
Such that LGM could say that he loves his wife with all of his heart without it being blather.
|
That is what is called a "colloquialism"...if I was writing a formal definition for something in a BOOK...I wouldn't use it.
See the difference yet?
What people who like to use the term 'worldview' are trying to do, is stereotype large groups of people, who may share some nebulous, common beliefs/behaviors, usually RELIGIOUS, and then claim, therefore, that they all have the same 'worldview' about EVERYTHING...it's utter bullshit...but I guess it gives Mr. Sire something to do.
There is no such thing as a Christian or Atheist or Muslim or Buddhist or Republican or Liberal or American 'worldview', because those labels only identify a TINY subset of a person's attributes.
| Quote: |
Do you have a problem with the term "heart" in that context?
If so, how would you change the definition? |
Sure...
The term 'worldview', when used in it's most generic and general sense, is typically just an attempt by the user, to stereotype large groups of people, such that all these people must amazingly 'view' everything about the 'world' in the same way, simply because they share some common affiliation, usually religious or political or cultural.
Don't use it.
Just beacuse Jack Spong and Fred Phelps and Meh_Gerbil all claim to be 'Christians', I would never assume they share a common 'view' about Christian 'stuff', much less EVERYTHING else important to them, that they may have a 'view' on.
Are we clear now?
_________________
...Oozing my brain chemicals in your general direction... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FlatEarth1024 wrote: | | I guess that by either definition, it could pretty much be boiled down to "That which the individual chooses to convince himself is true". Especially since 99% never know if we are right or wrong in our own lifetimes. So either way, it just comes down to that which you tell yourself to get you through the day, no? |
I don't think it is quite like that.
While your assertion may be true, I don't think the definition of worldview is quite that cavalier.
I'd assume most people would hold that what their core beliefs are more than just a story they tell themselves in order to get through the day. One thing that we need to caution ourselves about here is that we don't let our worldview define the term worldview. You may be letting some of your worldview leak into the definition when you ascribe a 99% failure rate to the search for truth and boil it down to something as limited as just getting through another day.
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Are we clear now? |
I certainly can understand your objections to the misuse of the term.
However, I think the term continues to be useful if handled with care.
I'll put down your response as: "The whole concept is bullshit".
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JBCuzISaidSo wrote: | I found the Center Leo Apostel for Interdisciplinary Studies model of what a world view or world outlook to be a better read:
A worldview can be defined as a coherent set of bodies of knowledge concerning all aspects of our world. It is to allow us to construct a global image of the world and understand as many elements of our experience as possible. A worldview is a map that we use to orient and explain, from which we evaluate and act, and put forward prognoses and visions of the future. Hence: (i) orient; (ii) explain; (iii) evaluate; (iv) act and; (v) predict are the basic aspects of a worldview.
In a more structured way Apostel put forward these basic aspects as follows:
1. An ontology, a descriptive model of the world
2. An explanation of the world
3. A futurology, answering the question "where are we heading?"
4. Values, answers to ethical questions: "What should we do?"
5. A praxeology, or methodology, or theory of action.: "How should we attain our goals?"
6. An epistemology, or theory of knowledge. "What is true and false?"
7. An etiology. A constructed world-view should contain an account of its own "building blocks," its origins and construction.
I found that on Wiki of course.
There are some interesting views of what a world view is believed to be shaped from (thus, also what it turns into) ranging from language dictating it to the heavier hitter like Apostel above.
Because I also found this it's worth sharing:
world·view
n. In both senses also called Weltanschauung.
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
--German : Welt, world (from Middle High German wërlt, from Old High German weralt; see wī-ro- in Indo-European roots) + Anschauung, view (from Middle High German anschouwunge, observation, mystical contemplation : an-, on, at from Old High German ana-; see anlage + schouwunge, look from schouwen, to look at, from Old High German scouwōn). |
The author further defines the term with 7 questions.
I'll post them later and compare them with the statements you've provided.
Thanks for the list - very nice contribution!
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaycorath
Inoffendable
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 3489
Local time: 9:25 PM
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Are we clear now? |
I certainly can understand your objections to the misuse of the term.
However, I think the term continues to be useful if handled with care.
I'll put down your response as: "The whole concept is bullshit". |
Make that two
_________________
"I love and treasure individuals as I meet them; I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to" -George Carlin
Celebrant: Forgive us, Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying.
Congregation: And bare-faced flattery.
--Monty Python's The Meaning of Life |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakeGeorgeMan
Forum Sheriff
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 413
Local time: 12:25 AM
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| Meh_Gerbil wrote: |
I certainly can understand your objections to the misuse of the term.
However, I think the term continues to be useful if handled with care.
|
Useful to whom? For what purpose other than to stereotype and oversimplfy the complex and ever changing 'views' held by people?
Are your 'views' the same as they were twenty years ago? or 5? or last month?
Mine aren't.
Would you'd be able to summarize all your 'views' with a single word or catchy socio-philosophical-theological bullshit phrase?
Does 'Meh' pretty much capture it?
What shall we do to people who don't handle the word with 'care'? Shall we buy their books?
_________________
...Oozing my brain chemicals in your general direction... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaycorath
Inoffendable
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 3489
Local time: 9:25 PM
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I usually don't hear people talk much about worldviews.
But when I do... it pisses me off. They're always jackasses who are doing exactly what LakeGeorgeMan accuses them of.
I purposefully ignore the inane bullshit worldview talk that I hear on the whole.
_________________
"I love and treasure individuals as I meet them; I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to" -George Carlin
Celebrant: Forgive us, Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying.
Congregation: And bare-faced flattery.
--Monty Python's The Meaning of Life |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meh_Gerbil
www.manties.net
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 888
Local time: 3:25 PM
Location: What?
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: World View: The Concept |
|
|
| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Meh_Gerbil wrote: |
I certainly can understand your objections to the misuse of the term.
However, I think the term continues to be useful if handled with care.
|
Useful to whom? For what purpose other than to stereotype and oversimplfy the complex and ever changing 'views' held by people? |
I'd like to limit the discussion to the definition of the term while avoiding debate over its abuse.
I don't deny that it gets abused, but I'm unable to do anything about that at this time.
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
