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LakeGeorgeMan
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 Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | Strawdog,
I once had lunch with a Unitarian Universalist minister and we got to talking about the different religions of the world.
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Translation: Neither of us really have a clue about all the different religions of the world, but we had both stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before, so we were feeling cocky.
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I asked him his thoughts on the matter and he offered the concept of a "template". He felt each religion was veiwing the same body of truth through a different template.
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In other words, the Christians who claim Jesus is really god, and claim you have to believe that, to get your pleasant eternal life in heaven are right, yet the Unitarians, Jews and Muslims who claim Jesus wasn't really a god, or was actually a fraud, are also right, and the Hindus, Buddhists, and people who practice a variety of indigenous tribal religions, and have never heard of Jesus, and instead worship a variety of other gods, are also right. It's all the same 'truth'...just a different 'template'...see? Now then...don't all the disparate world religions, and all their various gods, and rituals and rules to please these gods, all make perfect sense now? Shazam!
That's the kinda brilliant, indepth, theological analysis you get, when two nitwits, having lunch, don't want to 'offend' each other or ANY religious beliefs. That way, they can hilariously claim, "All religions are KINDA true...the other ones are just different views or 'templates' of my god"...but hey, at least we're not atheists or agnostics...we are 'spiritual'.
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So if I had to shorten the concept of a worldview I'd probably shorten it to the word "template".
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That's funny...if I had to shorten the concept of 'template', or your lunchen with minister happygas, I'd probably shorten it to "bullshit".
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Here is an example:
Three men are sitting on a porch when the cry of 'rape' is raised in the village. Moments later a black man runs by only to be followed by a bunch of fat southern boys carrying pitch forks. A couple of moments later a reporter appears and asks each of the men what just happened.
Man #1:
This man claims he saw a typical black rapist run by with a bunch of good men on his trail. He's satisfied that the evil man is going to get his due quite soon.
Man #2:
This man claims he saw a fine young man running for his life from the cast of Deliverance. It was his hope that the poor black fellow makes it to safety instead of being forced to "squeal like a piggie".
Man #3:
This man claims he saw the town sheriff leading his crew to the scene of a crime.
Man #1 has a template that is colored by racism.
Man #2 has a template that is colored by racism.
Man #3 has a template that is colored by his work in the town elections last fall.
All three men saw the exact same thing, but in another sense they didn't see the exact same thing because the true thing they saw was impacted quite heavily by each individual's template. (The facts of the matter weren't impacted by the template, however) This template is how we translate the world to make sense, it is how we connect the dots, how we arrive at an understanding of the world around us. For each of the templates above there is quite a bit of truth (they all saw a man running, they all saw the pitchforks, they all heard the cry for help) and there is some mis-information as well.
Being aware of one's own template aids in understanding one's own blind spots AND it can open up new levels of communication between ourselves and those who use a different template. That all said, I'd like to work more on a rewording of Sire's definition because I don't think "template" quite covers it. I'd like to see something a bit more precise than a single word.
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Am I to understand that in this mythical 'village' of yours, neither the Sheriff or his 'crew' wear uniforms, they aren't well known, and that they 'run' to crime scenes on foot, and that the 'crew' carries pitchforks as weapons?
Here's a helpful tip, Gerbzy...don't smoke a lot of crack before you come up with your next helpful 'example'.
If the reporter had asked me what happened, I would have said someone slipped a tab of acid in my lemonade.
I guess I'm still missing the 'definition' of 'worldview'.
Is it:
1. "lunch with a Unitarian minister where all religions are really the same truth" + the word 'template' + a really stupid story.
I'm startin' to like Spire's definition more and more...
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Last edited by LakeGeorgeMan on Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:48 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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One of the things I've done consistently and consciously my whole life, is that when I eat an apple, I eat all around the middle of the apple, and then throw that remaining middle part away.
I guess you could say it's one of the core beliefs of my worldview.
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | The attitude of the people who use a phrase shouldn't have any bearing on the actual definition. |
Presumably you mean "The 'worldview' of the people..."
I find their attitude much more interesting than any definition, for which I would consult a dictionary if I had the inclination. Like many theistic uses of words, "worldview" is reminiscent of George Orwell's notion of "duckspeak" in the sense that it is a warm compliment when applied to someone you agree with ("the Christian worldview") and a criticism when applied to an oppnonent ("the atheist worldview"). The words "faith", "belief", "religion", "god", "priest", and pretty much any theistic term, are likewise "duckspeak" compliments and criticisms when used by theists.
| Quote: | | What do you think of the definition, sans all the baggage? |
It seems to be an attempt to capture and operationalise the concept meant by everyday terms such as "attitude", "personality", "disposition", "prejudice", "post-hoc rationalisation" and so on.
However the definition is not operational because it tells us nothing about where personal "worldviews" come from, and how they evolve. It is also out of date. Psychology and neuroscience have shown over the past 30 years or so how our brains are modularised in their functions, and how belief-biases are highly dependent on subtle contextual factors. The author acknowledges "inconsistency", but does not appear to realise this inconsistency suggests multiple, fluid, context-dependent "worldviews" and so refutes his claim that we have one, rigid "worldview".
You and I, Gerbil, as contemporary Westerners who enjoy online recreation, have more of a shared perspective on life than either of us does with an Ethopian Christian tribal chief or a Mongolian atheist nomad. Christian versus atheist "worldviews" indeed!
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | One of the things I've done consistently and consciously my whole life, is that when I eat an apple, I eat all around the middle of the apple, and then throw that remaining middle part away.
I guess you could say it's one of the core beliefs of my worldview. |
I always consult my lodgers on philosophical matters, including the bloke in the apartment halfway along the hall.
He's the central tenant of my worldview.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| rickyroma wrote: | | Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | The attitude of the people who use a phrase shouldn't have any bearing on the actual definition. |
Presumably you mean "The 'worldview' of the people..."
I find their attitude much more interesting than any definition, for which I would consult a dictionary if I had the inclination. Like many theistic uses of words, "worldview" is reminiscent of George Orwell's notion of "duckspeak" in the sense that it is a warm compliment when applied to someone you agree with ("the Christian worldview") and a criticism when applied to an oppnonent ("the atheist worldview"). The words "faith", "belief", "religion", "god", "priest", and pretty much any theistic term, are likewise "duckspeak" compliments and criticisms when used by theists.
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Exactly. It's most typical use is to stereotype large swaths of people, and to establish an 'us vs them' false dichotomy.
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| Quote: | | What do you think of the definition, sans all the baggage? |
It seems to be an attempt to capture and operationalise the concept meant by everyday terms such as "attitude", "personality", "disposition", "prejudice", "post-hoc rationalisation" and so on.
However the definition is not operational because it tells us nothing about where personal "worldviews" come from, and how they evolve. It is also out of date. Psychology and neuroscience have shown over the past 30 years or so how our brains are modularised in their functions, and how belief-biases are highly dependent on subtle contextual factors. The author acknowledges "inconsistency", but does not appear to realise this inconsistency suggests multiple, fluid, context-dependent "worldviews" and so refutes his claim that we have one, rigid "worldview".
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Right again. You would learn a great deal more about your 'self' and what modern science has discovered about human nature, if you actually read a popular scientific book on the subject, rather then this philosophical/theological claptrap which is nothing more than an attempt to label and categorize a handful of religious, philosophical and political movements.
Pinker's The Blank Slate and The Stuff of Thought, Damasio's The Feeling of What Happens, LeDoux's Synaptic Self are all far more scientific and insighful forays into the mechanisms that shape human thought and personality.
And books like Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and Mann's '1491' will give you a much better perspective on the natural historical circumstances that allowed the ancestors of smug, white, European, Christian men like James Sire and 'the Gerbil' to migrate to this continent, where they conquered the indigenous peoples, and replaced their cultures and religions with European culture and religions.
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You and I, Gerbil, as contemporary Westerners who enjoy online recreation, have more of a shared perspective on life than either of us does with an Ethopian Christian tribal chief or a Mongolian atheist nomad. Christian versus atheist "worldviews" indeed! |
Again, exactly right, and a point I have made in the past.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| rickyroma wrote: | | LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | One of the things I've done consistently and consciously my whole life, is that when I eat an apple, I eat all around the middle of the apple, and then throw that remaining middle part away.
I guess you could say it's one of the core beliefs of my worldview. |
I always consult my lodgers on philosophical matters, including the bloke in the apartment halfway along the hall.
He's the central tenant of my worldview. |
It's my contention, that the recent proliferation of sophisticated satellite imagery…
…has done far more to influence our world views than any religious institutions or political movements.
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Likewise, astronomy has done more to expand our worlds-view than any description of heaven and hell.
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Meh_Gerbil
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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rickyroma,
I'll put you down as seeing "worldview" as an archaic, old-fashioned concept that does more harm than good.
-Meh Gerbil
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Meh_Gerbil
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Anyone else wish to comment on the definition of worldview?
I'm interested in getting input from people who see it as a helpful tool.
_________________
<:3 )~~~
"A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism |
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | I'll put you down as seeing "worldview" as an archaic, old-fashioned concept that does more harm than good. |
That has always been, and shall foever remain, the committed fundamental oreintation of my heart.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Meh_Gerbil wrote: | Anyone else wish to comment on the definition of worldview?
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Anyone else wish to lambast a silly rodent who clings to, and provides ridiculous examples of, an 'archaic, old-fashioned concept that does more harm than good'?
Anyone else wish to join Rickyroma and myself, in making droll puns about it?
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I'm interested in getting input from people who see it as a helpful tool. |
I'm interested in getting input from people who see you as an amusing tool.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| rickyroma wrote: | | Meh_Gerbil wrote: | | I'll put you down as seeing "worldview" as an archaic, old-fashioned concept that does more harm than good. |
That has always been, and shall foever remain, the committed fundamental oreintation of my heart. |
Unfortunately, I'm forced to admit, that the fundamental oreintation of my heart, seems to constantly change whenever I am doing sit-ups.
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Anyone else wish to join Rickyroma and myself, in making droll puns about it? |
I don't believe dinosaurs are extinct everywhere in the world.
I subscribe to the Lost World view.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| rickyroma wrote: | | LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Anyone else wish to join Rickyroma and myself, in making droll puns about it? |
I don't believe dinosaurs are extinct everywhere in the world.
I subscribe to the Lost World view. |
I would estimate that fog has done more to cloud men's world views than glaucoma.
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | rickyroma wrote: | | LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Anyone else wish to join Rickyroma and myself, in making droll puns about it? |
I don't believe dinosaurs are extinct everywhere in the world.
I subscribe to the Lost World view. |
I would estimate that fog has done more to cloud men's world views than glaucoma. |
It would be great if every one on the planet went around naked.
That way when I go travelling I could enjoy a naturistic world view.
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