The Infidel Guy Show
The Debate Hour Show

Faith and Freethought
3 Podcasts, One Feed

or visit this page.


FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist    UsergroupsUsergroups    RegisterRegister   
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 VideoRoom and ChatLive Video and Chat Room   The Infidel Guy's Video RoomFreethought Videos
BlogsBlogs    My BlogWeblogs News


Embed Our Player

~ TIP JAR ~


Why the LHC matters
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AtheistForums.com Forum Index -> Physics & Cosmology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master


Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: D-brane

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Why the LHC matters Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

This is a period of great excitement in the physics world as the LHC is about to get functional. Here’s why.

i) One of the theorems of the Standard Model (SM) is that the number of quark families is equal to the number of lepton families, which they are at the moment – each being equal to 3 families, each family containing two particles. So, presently the SM contains 6 leptons and six quarks.

But suppose that another, new lepton is found?!? It would mean a new family of leptons has been discovered. The consequence would then be to find its partner to complete the family AND the two quarks of the corresponding new family. Because of symmetry, these new particles (4 so far) would have their anti-particle partners, thus automatically doubling the number of new particles to 8. So finding one single new lepton would trigger the search of seven more.

ii) Supersymmetry (SUSY) is a theory crucial to String Theory (ST), Grand Unifying Theories (GUT’s) and in cosmology. Now all particles fall into two broad categories: fermions, with half-integral spins, constitute the building blocks of matter; bosons, with integral spins, mediate the force between particles of matter. SUSY postulates that for every boson there is a fermion, and vice-versa. For example, the electron, a fermion with ½ spin, would have a partner dubbed the selectron with spin 0. The photon, a boson with spin 1, would have as its partner, the photino with spin ½.

If any of these are discovered, we wouldn’t know what their use is for, perhaps they might make up Dark matter or Dark energy, but that’s just a guess.

iii) The Higgs boson is crucial to SM. Here’s why. Back in the 1930’s, when people were working on quantum field theory (QFT), they were faced with a theory riddled with infinities. Dirac was the first one to work around by introducing what is called a Lagrange multiplier – a fancy name but technically is very simple, it’s just a constant. The trick is, instead of performing an integration which gives the infinity, one plugs in a constant, does the integration, which now doesn’t go to infinity, then removes the constant. It turns out this made QFT a theory of the real world, but most physicists, including Dirac, were highly unsatisfied with this math trick. Feynman was able to do the same by using graphs and looking at the path integrals by considering all possibilities. When this was applied to the electromagnetic force, quantum electrodynamics (QED) became the most precise theory on this planet.

However, this trick only works because the photon, the particle that mediates the electromagnetic force, is massless. In the weak and strong nuclear forces, the bosons have masses. When that is taken into consideration, the infinities reappear.

Higgs was able to work around this by proposing that these bosons acquire their masses by a process called spontaneous symmetry breaking – a fancy name, but it is just another math trick. The analogy is the particle on a hill. It is at rest and every direction is equal (the symmetry) But once it’s nudged, it will roll down the hill. By choosing a direction, it has broken the symmetry. In the SM, the massless boson acquires mass – that is, breaks the symmetry – by traveling through a Higgs field.

By adopting this scheme, called the Higgs mechanism, Weinberg and Salam were able to get rid of the infinities that plagued SM. So the Higgs particle is a must for SM to be validated.

iv) If no discovery of new particles takes place, then this would be just as intriguing. No SUSY particles means String Theory is in trouble; no Higgs boson, and SM would be on very shaky ground.

And so, the bets are on. Will the LHC confirm SM, SUSY and ST, or throw a monkey wrench into any of these theories???
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog
Cydonia21
Forum Plebian
Forum Plebian


Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 116
Local time: 3:43 PM

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:29 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Popcorn Its going to be very exciting.

The things you listed are really just some the major headlines. It doesn't even begin to cover all the things that are going to be tested with the LHC. Some of the other really popular headline items include the possibility of never before seen, but not theoretically ruled out, combinations of quarks. These particles are dubbed "Stranglets". There is also micro black holes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Moloth
Coin Operated Boy


Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23062
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
us.gif

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

I hope we awaken Cthulhu.



_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-

www.Moloth.com

Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
starling
Intern
Intern


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 35
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: Tracy, CA
us.gif

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Why the LHC matters Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

josephpalazzo wrote:
But suppose that another, new lepton is found?!? It would mean a new family of leptons has been discovered. The consequence would then be to find its partner to complete the family AND the two quarks of the corresponding new family.
Ho hum. So discovering a lepton would only show us more stuff that's beyond our capability to measure. Convenient that, for a physicist's career that is.

Quote:
Supersymmetry... for every boson there is a fermion, and vice-versa. If any of these are discovered, we wouldn’t know what their use is for,
Well, at least you're honest about it.

Quote:
By adopting this scheme, called the Higgs mechanism, Weinberg and Salam were able to get rid of the infinities that plagued SM. So the Higgs particle is a must for SM to be validated.
Oh boy, I bet physicists are really excited at the thought that their theories might be validated.

Quote:
No SUSY particles means String Theory is in trouble; no Higgs boson, and SM would be on very shaky ground.
And you know what that means... more funding!! Very Happy

Yeesh, physics people... do something practical already, or just go play. All this "we must discover what our equations predicted even though it has no bearing on life at all" is just tiresome. Whether string theory gets proven or disproven, it doesn't make a single bit of difference, except that it makes a few physicists happy and well fed.
_________________
Looking for my box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Philosophos
Do it


Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 4:43 PM
Location: Where Scum Are

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

You really don't know much about the history of science, do you starling?
_________________
The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...

...and I'll whisper 'no'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pekkle
Intern
Intern


Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 72
Local time: 3:43 PM

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Philosophos wrote:
You really don't know much about the history of science, do you starling?


Indeed.

Discovering electricity was good for nothing except for feeding the egos of Frankiln and Volta, right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hit_me_up024
Forum Master
Forum Master


Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 2345
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: My parents basement.
us.gif

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

i dont know about LHC, but some THC (tetrahydrocanibanol). that is some important shit
_________________
be the pancake


Props to Enemy_of_Reality
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master


Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: D-brane

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Why the LHC matters Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

starling wrote:
josephpalazzo wrote:
But suppose that another, new lepton is found?!? It would mean a new family of leptons has been discovered. The consequence would then be to find its partner to complete the family AND the two quarks of the corresponding new family.
Ho hum. So discovering a lepton would only show us more stuff that's beyond our capability to measure. Convenient that, for a physicist's career that is.



Yep, it's a conspiracy beyond imagination...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog
Moloth
Coin Operated Boy


Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23062
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
us.gif

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

O_o

wow.. starling seems like a fellow who really appreciates the noble endeavor of science.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-

www.Moloth.com

Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mr_C
Reckoner


Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6546
Local time: 1:43 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
us.gif

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Why the LHC matters Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

starling wrote:
josephpalazzo wrote:
But suppose that another, new lepton is found?!? It would mean a new family of leptons has been discovered. The consequence would then be to find its partner to complete the family AND the two quarks of the corresponding new family.
Ho hum. So discovering a lepton would only show us more stuff that's beyond our capability to measure. Convenient that, for a physicist's career that is.

Quote:
Supersymmetry... for every boson there is a fermion, and vice-versa. If any of these are discovered, we wouldn’t know what their use is for,
Well, at least you're honest about it.

Quote:
By adopting this scheme, called the Higgs mechanism, Weinberg and Salam were able to get rid of the infinities that plagued SM. So the Higgs particle is a must for SM to be validated.
Oh boy, I bet physicists are really excited at the thought that their theories might be validated.

Quote:
No SUSY particles means String Theory is in trouble; no Higgs boson, and SM would be on very shaky ground.
And you know what that means... more funding!! Very Happy

Yeesh, physics people... do something practical already, or just go play. All this "we must discover what our equations predicted even though it has no bearing on life at all" is just tiresome. Whether string theory gets proven or disproven, it doesn't make a single bit of difference, except that it makes a few physicists happy and well fed.

Oh fucking wow. So electrons travel through circuits and the energy in the electrons creates a magnetic field, and this field can interact with other magnets (through magnetic attraction and repulsion) to create motion. So fucking what? All we've discovered is more jack-off material for physicists to get off on. *spits in the general direction of an electric motor*
All I need is my magic computer. This science bullshit is sooooo lame.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
SvZurich
Loki's Little Valkyrie


Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 22626
Local time: 12:43 PM
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Fire it up! And just in case, make a sign and put it outside the pull of a theoretical black hole that could form that says "Warning, firing up the LHC now." Remove sign if test goes off without a hitch. Smile
_________________
Kimberly (HSBUH) aka
Baroness Sylvia von Zurich (the only Goldwater Conservative) endorses the Meadow Party's Bill and Opus for the 2012 Presidential election!

The Atheist Forums have new rules!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
baddogma
antitheist


Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 9229
Local time: 5:43 AM
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Hit_me_up024 wrote:
i dont know about LHC, but some THC (tetrahydrocanibanol). that is some important shit


I prefer T&A!

*runs
_________________
Join http://www.sefora.org/


Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!


Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 2167
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
us.gif

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Ah, I cannot wait until the results start pouring in!
_________________
"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan

"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams

In memory of George Carlin. May he rest in peace.

Ignore list:
<empty>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mr_C
Reckoner


Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6546
Local time: 1:43 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
us.gif

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

joshuas3521 wrote:
Ah, I cannot wait until the results start pouring in!

Noticed you have a Douglas Adams quote in your sig...
What's the probability of this thing taking 7½ million years to compute the number "42"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!


Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 2167
Local time: 3:43 PM
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
us.gif

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Mr_C wrote:
joshuas3521 wrote:
Ah, I cannot wait until the results start pouring in!

Noticed you have a Douglas Adams quote in your sig...
What's the probability of this thing taking 7½ million years to compute the number "42"?


Hopefully very unlikely. At least we have some questions Razz
_________________
"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan

"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams

In memory of George Carlin. May he rest in peace.

Ignore list:
<empty>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AtheistForums.com Forum Index -> Physics & Cosmology All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Mobile Phone - Mortgage - The eBay Song - Loan - Loans
phpBB SEO