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Verum
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Joined: 15 May 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Verum wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
Verum,
 attacking Moloth? please...
but yes, I am here for inteligent discussion not for taking about where I can get my eyebrow shaped up and the best blow dryer out there.
you can hate and fear from ignorance, I see it here with some, not all, but you see it. They have no idea what religion is an the differences between each so they generalize and make hatred comments, to me that is purely fear as their arguments for this hatred comments is "well religion kills people", yes it has happen, so do cars, airplanes and criminals, dogs, animals...you get the point.
on the thread issue,
why does religion survive, well I will try to give you an unbiased answer.
One of the reasons is phsycological, i agree, people have a sense of well being, others simply like to belong, some hide there as to go unotice, other are simply scared of Hell, therefore join the churches and go from Sunday to Sunday and pretend they are true Christians (some are) just giving you a fair answer. Some are simply born into the religions. yes with any group or institution you have the mix of all kinds of reasons, no big find.
Now, why do I honestly think religion has survived, my personal answer is because its real. Once the Lord touches your heart, you have no reason not to believe, you receive instant assurance that He is real. |
It seemed like an antagonistic post to me... but I don't know the history between you two.
You personal answer is because it is real? Once the lord touches your heart....? I see why Moloth has some disdain for you. If you can't put aside your faith to discuss rationally the basis for religion in the first place and its continued prevalence then why post at all? Just to ignite Moloth the Incendiary? Because it is real is not a rational answer. And the lord touching your heart...? You might need some penicillin. |
Verum,
with respect, did you miss what I wrote prior to that? was that not rational?
*points at Bold words* |
Yes lets point at these bold words.
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Nothing is certain to man
"It is arrogance to profess knowledge of that which cannot be known" |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Verum wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Verum wrote: | | Newman wrote: |
Verum,
attacking Moloth? please...
but yes, I am here for inteligent discussion not for taking about where I can get my eyebrow shaped up and the best blow dryer out there.
you can hate and fear from ignorance, I see it here with some, not all, but you see it. They have no idea what religion is an the differences between each so they generalize and make hatred comments, to me that is purely fear as their arguments for this hatred comments is "well religion kills people", yes it has happen, so do cars, airplanes and criminals, dogs, animals...you get the point.
on the thread issue,
why does religion survive, well I will try to give you an unbiased answer.
One of the reasons is phsycological, i agree, people have a sense of well being, others simply like to belong, some hide there as to go unotice, other are simply scared of Hell, therefore join the churches and go from Sunday to Sunday and pretend they are true Christians (some are) just giving you a fair answer. Some are simply born into the religions. yes with any group or institution you have the mix of all kinds of reasons, no big find.
Now, why do I honestly think religion has survived, my personal answer is because its real. Once the Lord touches your heart, you have no reason not to believe, you receive instant assurance that He is real. |
It seemed like an antagonistic post to me... but I don't know the history between you two.
You personal answer is because it is real? Once the lord touches your heart....? I see why Moloth has some disdain for you. If you can't put aside your faith to discuss rationally the basis for religion in the first place and its continued prevalence then why post at all? Just to ignite Moloth the Incendiary? Because it is real is not a rational answer. And the lord touching your heart...? You might need some penicillin. |
Verum,
with respect, did you miss what I wrote prior to that? was that not rational?
*points at Bold words* |
Yes lets point at these bold words. |
Verum,
again, did you not read prior to that? I believe that was putting my faith in my pocket to answer you
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Newman
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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"One of the reasons is phsycological, i agree, people have a sense of well being, others simply like to belong, some hide there as to go unotice, other are simply scared of Hell, therefore join the churches and go from Sunday to Sunday and pretend they are true Christians (some are) just giving you a fair answer. Some are simply born into the religions. yes with any group or institution you have the mix of all kinds of reasons, no big find."
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Verum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | "One of the reasons is phsycological, i agree, people have a sense of well being, others simply like to belong, some hide there as to go unotice, other are simply scared of Hell, therefore join the churches and go from Sunday to Sunday and pretend they are true Christians (some are) just giving you a fair answer. Some are simply born into the religions. yes with any group or institution you have the mix of all kinds of reasons, no big find." |
These are all reasons to go to church, they are not an explanation for the development of religion. They may explain (partially) why religion is still so prevalent. But those bold words I highlighted earlier, the ones regarding why you honestly believe religion survives. Those to me are more meaningful, and they are lacking, IMO. They lack rational basis, and that is what I am seeking. A rational explanation of why people "honestly" and personally believe religion is such a pervasive force in society.
Sincerely, Verum
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Nil homini certum est
Nothing is certain to man
"It is arrogance to profess knowledge of that which cannot be known" |
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Verum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Look Newman,
All your eggs are in your Easter basket. So when it comes time to eat at the table with the rational people, you can't share because all your eggs are stained with the pretty colors of your faith. To me they are unpalatable, and will always be.
Thank you for your contribution.
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Nil homini certum est
Nothing is certain to man
"It is arrogance to profess knowledge of that which cannot be known" |
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Newman
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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 12:24 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Verum wrote: | Look Newman,
All your eggs are in your Easter basket. So when it comes time to eat at the table with the rational people, you can't share because all your eggs are stained with the pretty colors of your faith. To me they are unpalatable, and will always be.
Thank you for your contribution. |
so my belief impedes rationality, ok Verum
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lonomac
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Why has religion survived? |
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| Verum wrote: | I have been trying to come up with an explanation for religions survival, and its pervasiveness in society. It seems to be so contrary to logic, reason, and simple observation that it's incomprehensible to me that religions success is due soley to fear (of the unknown, fear of death). I want to throw one possibility out there and see what you think.
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Imo, because many people need/want the comfort of knowing that what they do has meaning and that they and they're loved ones will see eachother again someday after death. They want this comfort so badly that they are willing to waive logic and reason to keep it. If it wasn't Jesus/Allah etc etc, it would have been something else. |
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Hugga_Bear
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Joined: 01 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure there was another thread on this...
Religion started because it filled gaps, maybe it wasn't intended as a domination method at first but thats what it became.
Once it had become established it was difficult to get rid of, anyone who tried was a heretic, an unbeliever, a satanist and was thus killed.
Then, I suppose, it would have been manipulated and twisted for the purposes of power, one of man's goals of course.
How did it survive? Kids listen to their elders (kids, not teenagers for good reason) as it is the fastest (and safest) way to learn. Humanity is good at learning. We teach what is safe, what isn't, how to hunt, how to forage, how to build shelter and find water, what made that thing over there etc.
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why has religion survived? |
Who cares?
What are you gonna do? Cure it? Speculate upon it incessantly?
We are all deluded to some extent. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. Most of the time it's unnoticed.
But delusions are most dangerous when they're applauded.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
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Basilosaur
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Joined: 11 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| But shouldn't we try and stop the global delusion impeding the advancement of the human race? |
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Basilosaur wrote: | | But shouldn't we try and stop the global delusion impeding the advancement of the human race? |
Firstly, there is no "the" global delusion.
Secondly, why? What purpose are you trying to achieve? I may agree with you to some extent on this second point, but until I know your course, I can't agree with how you direct the rudder.
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Missionary
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Verum wrote: |
Perhaps, but if we were smart, couldn't we shed ourselves of religion, and short cut our way out of this dilemma. Religion is the cause of many of the horrible(evil?) things that men do. If we could eliminate religion, then we could collectively establish a new humanist morality, based on what is good for the survival of the species. |
This concept of religion being the primary evil of society is an atheist myth in it's entirety.
It's a trumped up charge based on crusades, witch trials, and now the middle east. The fact is that statistics show the World Prison Population (LINK:http://www.nicic.org/Library/020631) is holding at about 9 million prisoners worldwide. Out of an estimated global population of 6.6 billion, we have an incarceration rate of almost 14%. Further drilling down on this information would find that these people are not being held for religious crimes or atrocities. Here's a link for US prison/crime stats: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
Something else is obviously going on. Murder, assault and battery, robbery, drugs, property crimes, domestic violence, rape, etc. are symptoms of behavioral problems that are not being carried out in the name of any god but rather by individuals who have chosen to cross the boundaries of law.
In terms of all wars known in history (LINK: http://www.historyofwar.org/periodframe.html) the "cause of war" has been determined by historians to include a variety of reasons, with religion playing a part in about 25% of all wars.
Here's a list of wars sorted by largest casualties: LINK - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War#By_cause
| Quote: | # 60,000,000–72,000,000 - World War II (1939–1945), (see World War II casualties)[38][39]
# 30,000,000–60,000,000 - Mongol Conquests (13th century) (see Mongol invasions and Tatar invasions)[40][41][42][43]
# 25,000,000 - Manchu conquest of Ming China (1616–1662)[44]
# 20,000,000–70,000,000 - World War I (1914–1918) (see World War I casualties) note that the larger number includes Spanish flu deaths
# 20,000,000 - Taiping Rebellion (China, 1851–1864) (see Dungan revolt)[45]
# 20,000,000 - Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945)[46]
# 10,000,000 - Warring States Era (China, 475 BC–221 BC)
# 7,000,000 - 20,000,000 Conquests of Timur the Lame (1360-1405) (see List of wars in the Muslim world)[47][48]
# 5,000,000–9,000,000 - Russian Civil War and Foreign Intervention (1917–1921)[49]
# 5,000,000 - Conquests of Menelik II of Ethiopia (1882- 1898)[50][51] |
Here's another more concise list of history's major wars: http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/WarsList.cfm
This is a good resource with tons of links: http://www.teacheroz.com/Military_History.htm
So, as good as it sounds for atheists to blame wars, crimes, atrocities, and deaths on religion, Christians, or even Islam the facts show this isn't true and is simply a popular urban legand being passed around by non-believers attempting to create a "danger" that needs to be eliminated for survival of species.
This fear mongering and sheep herding. No more - no less. |
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Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In terms of all wars known in history (LINK: http://www.historyofwar.org/periodframe.html) the "cause of war" has been determined by historians to include a variety of reasons, with religion playing a part in about 25% of all wars. |
wow. so if we imagine no religion, a quarter of all wars will be prevented (and countless lives saved).
sounds like a good deal to me! 
plus, all violence, strife and suffering do not rely on WARS to be perpetuated. Look at Saudi Arabia under Sharia law... women beaten to death for the crime of being raped, people drug through the street, limbs lopped off, etc. Even in Western civilization... Abortion clinic bombings, racism and slavery, families and lives destroyed because homosexuality is considered an 'abomination', the list of religion-justified horrors could stretch for miles.
Religion, and the backwards, hateful, bigoted and delusional propaganda it spreads, IS the reason for a vast majority of pain int his world. Instead of fighting and arguing over who's right, about something that can't be falsified ANYWAYS, they could be spending that time celebrating the finite and precious life that we have in this universe.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Newman
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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Quote: | | In terms of all wars known in history (LINK: http://www.historyofwar.org/periodframe.html) the "cause of war" has been determined by historians to include a variety of reasons, with religion playing a part in about 25% of all wars. |
wow. so if we imagine no religion, a quarter of all wars will be prevented (and countless lives saved).
sounds like a good deal to me!
plus, all violence, strife and suffering do not rely on WARS to be perpetuated. Look at Saudi Arabia under Sharia law... women beaten to death for the crime of being raped, people drug through the street, limbs lopped off, etc. Even in Western civilization... Abortion clinic bombings, racism and slavery, families and lives destroyed because homosexuality is considered an 'abomination', the list of religion-justified horrors could stretch for miles.
Religion, and the backwards, hateful, bigoted and delusional propaganda it spreads, IS the reason for a vast majority of pain int his world. Instead of fighting and arguing over who's right, about something that can't be falsified ANYWAYS, they could be spending that time celebrating the finite and precious life that we have in this universe.
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you got to love, the "all wars are because religion, period!" ah no? hmmm ok ok , well 25% percent is good! so what should we eliminate to take out the other 75%
do you ever see a good point from someone else and accepted, or does your own voice not allow this?
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Missionary
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Local time: 3:24 PM
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Quote: | | In terms of all wars known in history (LINK: http://www.historyofwar.org/periodframe.html) the "cause of war" has been determined by historians to include a variety of reasons, with religion playing a part in about 25% of all wars. |
wow. so if we imagine no religion, a quarter of all wars will be prevented (and countless lives saved).
sounds like a good deal to me!
plus, all violence, strife and suffering do not rely on WARS to be perpetuated. Look at Saudi Arabia under Sharia law... women beaten to death for the crime of being raped, people drug through the street, limbs lopped off, etc. Even in Western civilization... Abortion clinic bombings, racism and slavery, families and lives destroyed because homosexuality is considered an 'abomination', the list of religion-justified horrors could stretch for miles.
Religion, and the backwards, hateful, bigoted and delusional propaganda it spreads, IS the reason for a vast majority of pain int his world. Instead of fighting and arguing over who's right, about something that can't be falsified ANYWAYS, they could be spending that time celebrating the finite and precious life that we have in this universe.
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I was just posting to sharpen my keyboard pecking skills. I didn't really expect evidence or facts to actually serve as such to people who claim to rely entirely upon evidence and facts. I totally understand that it doesn't work in furthering your agenda or fit in the box that keeps God out. Feel free to bronze your myth for the mantle. |
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