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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6611
Local time: 6:38 PM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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 Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| nogods wrote: | | Jutter wrote: |
When you're one of ten people in a room, and...
- the other nine lift up an object. That means you did not lift up something. It does NOT mean you DID lift up NOTHING.
- the other nine believe there is a god. That means you don't believe there is a god. It dos not mean you do believe there is no god. |
The atheist in the room would not be 'lifting up nothing', he would be pointing to the theists and saying, "You have lifted up nothing, your hands are empty - there is nothing there." |
Refraining from participation yes, but is pointing out to the others they are wasting their time a prequisite also?
| Quote: | | We would not be saying, You theists have lifted up something, but we have choosen not to lift it." |
Ergo it would be strange to have our position described from a perspective that DOES postulate this liftable something. Describing your position as an omission of this something, would be like explicitely raising your empty hands to lift nothing.
| Quote: | | If asked by the theists why we have not lifted up the object (God), we would say because there is nothing to lift." We would not be saying "We do not believe in lifting up God objects". |
Considering that the lifting represented believing and the supposed object god, that's besides the point because I never proposed describing atheism as "not believing in believing in a god".
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~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Ophis
Royal Citizen
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 470
Local time: 6:38 PM
Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | Sneaky of you to turn that around.
Here I've been making a carefull distinction between two formats, and then you go and switch from one to the other on me as if I wouldn't notice.
No I would be someone who does not believe there is a Santa, not someone who does believe there is no Santa
Does the former propose the existence of santa? No it merely proposes people who do. Difference. Not the same.
THis is the difference between theiISM and theOS we're talking about here people. Hello, is this thing switched on? Am I talking DUTCH?? |
The language is right, the logic is not. This whole idea of yours, that "strong" atheism assumes the existence of god, is just plain not true. "Strong atheism"/atheism assumes knowledge of the god concept. It is then denied that that concept applies to anything real. It's looking at what theists believe, and saying, "no, that's bollocks".
I know of the concept of Santa Claus. I believe that the concept of Santa Claus refers to nothing in the real world. Hence, I believe there is no Santa. At what point have I assumed the veracity of a worldview which includes Santa? I have only assumed knowledge of the concept of Santa, not the applicability of that concept to the external world.
| Jutter wrote: | | Likewise an atheist does not propose "no god exists" but rather that 'what the theist preceives to be god' does not exists. |
This sentence actually makes sense to me. Someone who says that "what the theist perceives to be god does not exist" is an atheist according to the common terminology, a "strong atheist" according to the alternative terminology. This person is saying "there is no god", which means that the thing the theist understands by the word god, has no reference to the real world. You seem to be acting as if the atheist is saying, "You see that god over there? He doesn't exist". In fact, all he is saying is, "You know this 'god' idea the theists keep talking about? It's bollocks". |
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nogods
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1898
Local time: 3:38 AM
Location: Vienna, Austria
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | | nogods wrote: | | Jutter wrote: |
When you're one of ten people in a room, and...
- the other nine lift up an object. That means you did not lift up something. It does NOT mean you DID lift up NOTHING.
- the other nine believe there is a god. That means you don't believe there is a god. It dos not mean you do believe there is no god. |
The atheist in the room would not be 'lifting up nothing', he would be pointing to the theists and saying, "You have lifted up nothing, your hands are empty - there is nothing there." |
Refraining from participation yes, but is pointing out to the others they are wasting their time a prequisite also? |
That is why I ended the post with the comment, I am an atheist, not an anti-theist. (Though some theists I am very anti). We do not have to participate if we choose not, but if there were no theists there would be no atheists. Atheism did not come before theism, the 'a' in atheism kinds of gives that away.
Atheist are denying someone else's claim. If no one was making the claim what would there be to deny? If theists never existed and there had never been a theistic concept, there would be no atheists. We would simply be godless! and if humans had always been godless there would never had been any need for the word atheist.
Similar to the word anarchy. Anarchy is the denial of recognising someone elses authority (Archist = ruler, power, authority). If there were no archists - there would be no anarchists.
| Jutter wrote: | | nogods wrote: | | We would not be saying, You theists have lifted up something, but we have choosen not to lift it." |
Ergo it would be strange to have our position described from a perspective that DOES postulate this liftable something. Describing your position as an omission of this something, would be like explicitely raising your empty hands to lift nothing. |
But that is what atheism is, it is the denial of the theists claim. What else could it be?
| Jutter wrote: | | nogods wrote: | | If asked by the theists why we have not lifted up the object (God), we would say because there is nothing to lift. We would not be saying "We do not believe in lifting up God objects". |
Considering that the lifting represented believing and the supposed object god, that's besides the point because I never proposed describing atheism as "not believing in believing in a god". |
What is it exactly you are proposing. That atheism is a word that has meaning seperate from the word theist?
nogods
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Last edited by nogods on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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J_Lazarus
Moderator
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | | Likewise an atheist does not propose "no god exists" but rather that 'what the theist preceives to be god' does not exists. |
| Ophis wrote: | | This sentence actually makes sense to me. Someone who says that "what the theist perceives to be god does not exist" is an atheist according to the common terminology, a "strong atheist" according to the alternative terminology. This person is saying "there is no god", which means that the thing the theist understands by the word god, has no reference to the real world. You seem to be acting as if the atheist is saying, "You see that god over there? He doesn't exist". In fact, all he is saying is, "You know this 'god' idea the theists keep talking about? It's bollocks". |
Yep, this is the whole point.
Jutter, there was no "sneakiness" in my last post. What I said is exactly the way that the common definition has been understood all along. Just like Ophis said, an atheist is not going to say, "You see that God over there? I refuse to believe He exists." Instead, we're referencing the mere concept, the abstract thought, the idea of God, and saying that, in fact, this idea has no application to reality - it is not found in the real world outside of our thought. Just like Santa Claus does not exist. Just like the Easter Bunny does not exist. None of these statements implicitly assume the negation of what they're saying. It's much more straightforward than you apparently think it is.
- JL
_________________
Heaven's not a place that you go when you die,
It's that moment in life when you actually feel alive.
So live for the moment.
And take this advice, live by every word.
Love is completely real, so forget everything that you have heard.
And live for the moment, now.
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6611
Local time: 6:38 PM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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After mulling replies over in my head, I've come to conclude I need to revise my stand on this matter. Thx to those participating, Mr Lazarus in particular, for helping me out and I hope my fits of cognitive dissonance weren't too tedious.
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6611
Local time: 6:38 PM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Shit. Did I just kill the thread?
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Menace
Marxist, Naturalist,Nihilist,Satanic Mystic
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 190
Local time: 12:38 PM
Location: Six Feet Under.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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A realist.......
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12826
Local time: 9:38 AM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Menace wrote: | | A realist....... |
Have I mentioned how much I love your avatar? I don't normally dig oriental chicks, but I have my exceptions to every rule. 
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Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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lumpymunk
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 2138
Local time: 12:38 PM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I was just reading through this article BTW, a perfect example of who theists refer to when they use the word Atheists. Dividing everyone into two broad categories, belief in my god, and unbelief in my god.
http://grove.ufl.edu/%7Eaasa/witmer%20talk%201.pdf
Great article by the way.
So once again, contradiction between what they say, and what they mean, using their own definition of Atheism, that is.. the common usage.
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“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNOPu_wU6hs |
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J_Lazarus
Moderator
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 1506
Local time: 1:38 PM
Location: Hudson, New York
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | | Shit. Did I just kill the thread? |
Jutter,
Thanks for meditating on everything that I had said. I'm really happy to find out that a lot of people are passing their "critical thinker" tests this year (compliments Philosophos' signature). I just recently changed my mind on an issue in ethical theory, some Christian friends of mine passed their test on some apologetical issues, and now it looks like you've changed your view on how we should construe atheism. So, congrats to all.
- JL
_________________
Heaven's not a place that you go when you die,
It's that moment in life when you actually feel alive.
So live for the moment.
And take this advice, live by every word.
Love is completely real, so forget everything that you have heard.
And live for the moment, now.
- Spill Canvas |
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AiiA
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2542
Local time: 12:38 PM
Location: Inside your head
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Was it that no atheist existed until someone invented a god and the person, who was to become the first atheist, came to the conclusion that god did not exist? |
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 2971
Local time: 5:38 PM
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| J_Lazarus wrote: | | I just recently changed my mind on an issue in ethical theory.... |
Hey, Laz,
How did you do that? Incidentally, did you ever decide whether or not you're a materialist?
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lumpymunk
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 2138
Local time: 12:38 PM
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| AiiA wrote: | | Was it that no atheist existed until someone invented a god and the person, who was to become the first atheist, came to the conclusion that god did not exist? |
yes but..
not just 'god' in general, but the theists particular god doesn't exist.
_________________
“Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ B.Hicks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNOPu_wU6hs |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 12:38 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Science and religion are mutually contradictory. Either you are for science AND against religion, or vice-versa. You cannot sit on the fence, waiting to make a decision. You either believe or you don't. Those who say they don't know means they are waiting for a miracle, which suggests that they are really believers.
You can't have your cake, and eat it. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23062
Local time: 12:38 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | Science and religion are mutually contradictory. Either you are for science AND against religion, or vice-versa. You cannot sit on the fence, waiting to make a decision. You either believe or you don't. Those who say they don't know means they are waiting for a miracle, which suggests that they are really believers.
You can't have your cake, and eat it. |
...and the meme attempts to replicate... 
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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